Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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11. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if his Department will issue guidelines to other Departments regarding the engagement of private companies for contract work; if the working conditions of staff in these companies' firms, including trade union recognition, will be considered; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2163/18]

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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When other Departments engage private companies for contract work, will the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform issue guidelines as to the regard to be given to the conditions of workers in those private companies, including trade union recognition? I am interested to hear a statement on that matter.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for the question. Public procurement is the acquisition, whether under formal contract or not, of works, supplies and services by public bodies. National rules governing public procurement must comply with the relevant EU, WTO and national legal requirements and obligations. Under EU law, public contracts above a certain value must be advertised EU-wide and awarded to the most competitive tender in an open and objective process. The aim of European and national rules is to promote an open, competitive and non-discriminatory public procurement regime which delivers best value for money.

In this regard, public procurement rules include provisions that allow member states to require a contractor to comply with EU and national legislation on the protection of labour rights. As a consequence, public procurement procedures require applicants to meet certain standards when applying for public contracts and applicants are required to make declarations in regard to their financial standing and legal standing and in regard to payment of taxes and social contributions. They must also be compliant with relevant labour law. These requirements are set out in the template documents used in tendering for goods and services which have been developed by the Office of Government Procurement in conjunction with the Office of the Attorney General and the Chief State Solicitor's office.

I launched new Public Procurement Guidelines for Goods and Services last July. These guidelines promote and reinforce improved best practice, standardisation and consistency of approach among public procurement practitioners. However, the management of a tendering process for a public contract is a matter for each contracting authority and it is the contracting authority's responsibility to assess that tenderers comply with all the requirements of the process.

Once awarded, the conditions of the public works contracts require the contractor to certify compliance with employment law, to maintain records of all those employed on the site, regardless of whether they are employees of the contractor or their subcontractors, and the hours worked by them. Where requested, the contractor must also provide details of the payments made to those employed on the site.

Where the contractor fails to comply with its obligations under the contract or employment law, deductions may be made from payments due under the contract until the situation is rectified.

It is important to note that employment law and its enforcement, in both public and private contracts, is a matter for the relevant State authorities, including the Workplace Relations Commission and the Departments of Business, Enterprise and Innovation and Employment Affairs and Social Protection.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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I specifically want to raise the case of a company called Extern. This is a Northern Ireland based company with charitable status. It has been engaged by a number of Departments, including the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, the Department of Justice and Equality, and the HSE. It has 450 employees, North and South. It operates in 40 locations across the island and provides services, it claims on its website, to 15,000 persons. This company refuses to recognise a trade union here in the Republic. The union in question is the Unite trade union and the official who has been making the efforts is Mr. Roy Hassey. The Departments, when contacted by the union, refuse to engage. The Department of Justice and Equality, in a written response, states it is referring the matter to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.

Non-recognition is bad enough. What is more galling is the fact that Extern also obtains contracts of a similar type from government Departments in Northern Ireland and yet there, its employees' union, NIPSA, the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance, is recognised by Extern management.

Can the Minister of State stand over such partitionist double standards? The fact is that the Minister of State's colleagues in other Departments seem not only to stand over it but to reward it.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy raises a specific case. It is the first time that I have heard of it. I will not comment on a specific case. To do so would not be fair, to be quite honest about it, because I do not have the details. I have taken a note of what the Deputy has said and I will review the matter with the relevant officials when I return to my Department.

I wish to reiterate that the role of the Office of Government Procurement is in the setting out of the contract tendering process. It is a matter for the tendering authority - I do not know to which tendering authority the Deputy is referring - to ensure that all conditions laid down under Irish law, as well as any EU provisions, are complied with. It is a matter for whatever agency of the State is the tendering authority in this case. As I said in my initial response, there are mechanisms available to everybody, including the Workplace Relations Commission, but I do not know the details of the specific case the Deputy has raised and will not comment on it today.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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I ask the Minister of State to send me a written reply to my question after he discusses the specific case with his officials. However, this issue does not solely involve Extern. Departments and local authorities have awarded construction contracts to firms that have delivered on those contracts on the basis of bogus self-employment practices when it was clear from the outset that the bids were so low that they could be only delivered in such a manner. We have submitted written questions to the Minister of State and other Ministers regarding the collapse of the UK-based firm, Carillion, which not only affects Britain as it has jeopardised various public works in Ireland, including the construction of six schools. A profound debate has been taking place in Britain over the past week on the need to reverse the trend of outsourcing for several reasons, not just because of the ability or inability of private firms to deliver but also because of the important question of workers' rights. Such a debate needs to take place here. I put it to the Minister of State that it is clear the Government is at one with the Tories in the United Kingdom on such issues.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I will not be drawn into the cul-de-sac of name calling that Deputy Barry wants. This is an important issue and his attempt to trivialise it at the end of his contribution does not do it any fairness or justice. For the record and the information of the House, I discussed this matter with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, this morning.

As regards the other matter also raised by Deputy Calleary, the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, is very confident that the schools potentially affected by the collapse of Carillion will be delivered and he yesterday spoke to the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, in that regard. He is very confident that the risk to those schools will be mitigated and they will be looked after. However, I will not be drawn into specific allegations that have been made regarding named companies. I have noted the name of the company and will refer the matter to my officials and revert to the Deputy in due course.