Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is gnáthchruinniú é seo atá ar siúl i seomra coiste 4 i dTithe an Oireachtais, áit a bhfuil gné fhíorúil Microsoft Teams má tá aon chomhalta nó aon bhall de Thithe an Oireachtais ag teacht isteach sa bhealach sin. Níl aon fhinné ar Microsoft Teams inniu.

Táimid ag déanamh ár mbreathnú ar cur chuige an Stáit i gcur chun cinn chóras Gaeloideachais atá réamhghníomhach agus atá oiriúnach don fheidhm a bhaineann leis. Tá an tAire Oideachais, an Teachta Norma Foley, anseo leis an bhfoireann ar fad. Léifidh mé amach ainmneacha na bhfinnéithe. Ón Roinn Oideachais tá Tomás Ó Ruairc, rúnaí cúnta, Áine Cusack, príomhoifigeach san aonad pleanála agus tógála, Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe, príomhoifigeach san aonad um oideachas Gaeltachta, Brendan Doody, príomhoifigeach i riachtanais speisialta oideachais, an chigireacht, agus Evelyn O'Connor, príomhoifigeach sa rannóg um beartais churaclaim agus measúnachta.

Cuirim ar an taifead go bhfuil na finnéithe ar fad anseo i seomra coiste 4 laistigh de phurláin Thithe an Oireachtais.

Tá na rialacha ar eolas ag gach duine, ach chun a mheabhrú do dhaoine, fiafraítear d'fhinnéithe agus de chomhaltaí araon cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú nár chóir, más féidir, daoine ná eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainm ar shlí a bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear díobh gan aon rud a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfaí a ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó eintiteas aitheanta, ordófar dóibh éirí as an ráiteas sin láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfidh siad leis an ordú sin láithreach.

Sula n-iarraim ar an Aire a ráiteas tosaigh a dhéanamh, ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá. Mar is eol don Aire, tá an-suim ag an gcoiste seo i gcúrsaí Gaeloideachais, sna heaspaí atá ann sa soláthar nó san infhaighteacht timpeall na tíre agus sa chaighdeán atá ar fáil i múinteoireacht na Gaeilge timpeall na tíre. Tá buairt orainn agus táimid tar éis a bheith ag cíoradh ceist an oideachais trí Ghaeilge nó i leith na Gaeilge le tamall de bhliain anuas. Tá sé i gceist againn tuairisc a dhéanamh bunaithe ar an méid atá cloiste againn roimhe seo agus ar an méid atá le cloisteáil againn inniu. Beidh roinnt ceisteanna agam féin agus beidh Teachtaí eile ag cur ceisteanna. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a bheith i láthair. Tugaim cuireadh di a ráiteas tosaigh a thabhairt.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Tá an-áthas orm a bheith os comhair Chomhchoiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge tráthnóna. Ar dtús, gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as ucht an chuiridh, an ama agus an deis a thabhairt dom bualadh agus labhairt leis inniu. Tá cur chun cinn na Gaeilge ar cheann de na tosaíochtaí atá agam mar Aire Oideachais agus cuirim fáilte roimh an deis é seo a phlé inniu. Mar is eol do na baill, tá oifigigh mo Roinne liom inniu.

Tá ról ríthábhachtach ag an Roinn Oideachais i dtaobh na Gaeilge agus bíonn sé i gcónaí mar sprioc againn caighdeán oideachas na Gaeilge a fheabhsú i suímh meán-Bhéarla agus i suímh lán-Ghaeilge araon. Tuigim gur mhaith leis an gcoiste díriú ar an oideachas lán-Ghaeilge agus, mar sin, díreoidh mé ar straitéis na Roinne ina leith sin. Déanann mo Roinn infheistíocht shuntasach san oideachas lán-Ghaeilge. Mar shampla, cuireann an Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta tacaíocht luachmhar ar fáil dár scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge chomh maith le mol digiteach d'acmhainní Gaeilge a cuireadh ar fáil le déanaí. Le linn théarma an Rialtais seo, tá maoiniú do COGG méadaithe ó €1.3 milliún go dtí €3 mhilliún i mbliana, níos mó ná a dhúbailt de mhéadú. Tá foireann COGG méadaithe faoi dhó freisin chun breis tacaíochta a thabhairt dár scoileanna. Is seirbhís tacaíochta nua í Oide a chuireann deiseanna foghlama gairmiúla ar fáil do mhúinteoirí agus do cheannairí scoile. Bunaíodh GaelAonad, atá mar chuid de Oide, le foireann ar leith atá tiomanta don Ghaeilge.

Tá a lán forbairtí curaclaim eile ag tarlú maidir leis an nGaelainn chomh maith. Mar shampla, tabharfar aitheantas dár scéalta agus dár stair chultúrtha agus teangeolaíoch sa churaclam do na luathbhlianta, Aistear. Is creatchuraclam é Aistear a úsáidtear i suímh luathfhoghlama agus i ranganna naíonán. Chomh maith leis sin, tá athbhreithnithe ar bun ar shonraíochtaí teanga don tsraith shóisearach agus don tsraith shinsearach. Tá sé i gceist curaclam nua leasaithe don Ghaeilge sa tsraith shinsearach a thabhairt isteach i mí Mheán Fómhair 2028. Tá dul chun cinn á dhéanamh freisin ó thaobh polasaí de chun soláthar an tumoideachais a neartú.

Tá dul chun cinn fiúntach déanta ag mo Roinnse maidir le cur i bhfeidhm an pholasaí don oideachas Gaeltachta. Sampla tábhachtach amháin den dul chun cinn sin ná bunú an B.Oid agus an M.Oid trí mheán na Gaeilge. Tugann na cúrsaí staidéir seo deiseanna do mhúinteoirí a gcáilíochtaí múinteoireachta a bhaint amach go hiomlán trí mheán na Gaeilge. Chabhraigh an polasaí go mór leis an soláthar lán-Ghaeilge a neartú i gceantair Ghaeltachta tríd an scéim aitheantais scoileanna Gaeltachta. Mar thoradh ar obair chrua agus dúthracht don scéim, tá aitheantas mar scoil Ghaeltachta le bronnadh ar bhreis agus 120 scoil an mhí seo chugainn. Chomh maith leis sin, tá polasaí nua don oideachas lán-Ghaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht á fhorbairt faoi láthair.

Maidir leis an soláthar don oideachas lán-Ghaeilge, tá méadú tagtha ar líon na scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge go 299 in 2024. Ón mbliain 2013, tá €840 milliún infheistithe againn i bhfoirgnimh scoile nua chun tacú leis an oideachas lán-Ghaeilge. Mar is eol don choiste, d'fhógair mé le déanaí go mbeidh Scoil na mBráithre Críostaí Sráid Synge ag athrú go soláthar lán-Ghaeilge ag tosú in 2026. Tá gach ceantar difriúil agus, chun cur le líon na ndaltaí san oideachas lán-Ghaeilge, beidh orainn go léir, is é sin an Roinn, scoileanna, pátrúin agus páirtithe leasmhara eile, comhoibriú le chéile chun toradh dearfach a bhaint a bhaint amach.

Beidh na polasaithe, na tacaíochtaí agus na tionscnaimh go léir atá luaite agam tráthnóna mar bhunchloch ríthábhachtach agus muid ag féachaint ar na bealaí gur féidir an t-oideachas lán-Ghaeilge a neartú níos mó fós.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Is maith an rud é go bhfuil sí anseo. Fáiltím roimh na finnéithe go léir atá anseo. Ar an bpolasaí don oideachas Gaeltachta, thug sé misneach dúinn go léir agus do na daoine ar an talamh ach go háirithe. Is polasaí dearfach é le spriocanna. Tá seacht gcolún ann ag cur in iúl cad atá le déanamh laistigh de thréimhse áirithe ama. Cá bhfuil muid? Tá a fhios agam go raibh síneadh ama de bharr Covid. Is ceist dhíreach shonrach í seo. Cá bhfuil muid leis an bpolasaí sin faoi láthair? An bhfuil athbhreithniú ar siúl?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta. Beidh mé sásta labhairt léi as Gaeilge agus as Béarla. An bhfuil sí ag caint faoin bpolasaí don Ghaeltacht?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Táim ag caint faoin bpolasaí don oideachas Gaeltachta don tréimhse ó 2017 go 2022, agus anois 2024.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Tá sé sin déanta againn. It has been actioned. For example, some of the actions that have come in are: the 30 B.Oid places provided for by the Department; the máistreacht ghairmiúil, which has also been provided for; the Gaeltacht recognition scheme-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tuigim é sin. Tá sé léite agam. Cá bhfuil sé go foirmiúil ó thaobh athbhreithnithe? Tá an tréimhse sin ama imithe anois. Cá bhfuil muid faoi láthair ó thaobh athbhreithnithe? Cad atá foghlamtha? An bhfuil tuarascáil áit éigin?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Tá an plean críochnaithe. There are three stages to what we are doing in terms of promotion of the Irish language. The completion of the plan for schools within the Gaeltacht was the first stage. Tá sé sin déanta. The next-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tuigim é sin agus tá ardmholadh tugtha agam don pholasaí seo ach is í mo cheist go sonrach ná an bhfuil athbhreithniú i gceist. An bhfuil sé críochnaithe? An bhfuil tuarascáil ar fáil maidir leis an bpolasaí iontach seo?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Beidh athbhreithniú ar siúl. There will be a revision or whatever, an athbhreithniú, of it when the entire policy has been completed. There are three stages to the policy. That was the first one. The second stage is the policy for Irish-medium education outside of the Gaeltacht. The third leg is the policy for the teaching of Irish in mainstream English-medium schools. There are three aspects to it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ceapaim go bhfuil míthuiscint ann. B'fhéidir go bhfuil Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe ag iarraidh caint air sin. Níl a fhios agam. Is polasaí ann féin é atá dírithe ar na scoileanna sna Gaeltachtaí uilig ar fud na tíre. Tá sé ráite go mion minic agam go bhfuil sé thar a bheith dearfach. Cá bhfuil stádas aon athbhreithniú ar an bpolasaí sin faoi láthair?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

I dtaobh an pholasaí seo, tá an dáta istigh. Is 2022 a bhí luaite. De bharr go raibh Covid ann, cuireadh síneadh leis an scéim aitheantais mar chuid den pholasaí sin. Comhthreomhar leis an bpolasaí, tá an Foras Taighde ar Oideachas ag déanamh meastóireachta. Tá sé ag déanamh staidéar taighde agus meastóireachta. Tá ceithre chuid de sin. Tá an chéad chuid curtha i gcrích aige.

Tá dhá thuarascáil eatramhacha atá ar bun faoi láthair. Beidh tuairisc dheireanach le cur aige chugainn. Tá sé ag bailiú eolais ó na scoileanna, tuismitheoirí agus na pobail scoile le fáil amach cad é an tionchar ar an talamh agus an raibh éifeacht leis an bpolasaí. Beidh sé ag cur na dtuairiscí os ár gcomhair amach ionas gur féidir linn iad sin a úsáid agus muid ag dul ag breathnú chun tosaigh ar an gcéad céim eile sa pholasaí.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An mbeidh tuarascáil ar fáil dúinn le léamh?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Cinnte.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cén uair?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Tá an taighde ar siúl faoi láthair. Níl ach obair allamuigh ar siúl. Tá ceisteanna agus agallaimh ar siúl leis na pobail scoile. Tá an Foras Taighde Oideachais ag obair air sin. Le cúnamh Dé, beidh sé linn roimh dheireadh na bliana seo. Beidh orainn ansin na dréachtaí deireanacha a chur ar fáil don choiste. Beidh muid ag brath ar an bhForas Taighde Oireachtais é sin a sheoladh chugainn. Beidh sé go poiblí do gach éinne.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Beidh an tuarascáil críochnaithe agus beidh sé againn i gceann cúpla mí.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Le cúnamh Dé.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Maidir leis sin, cad iad na fadhbanna, an dul chun cinn agus na rudaí suntasacha atá ar eolas ag an Roinn anois ó thaobh an pholasaí de? Is mian liom díriú ar an bpolasaí eile do na scoileanna taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht, ach is cinnte go raibh ceacht le foghlaim ón phróiseas seo, nach raibh?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Cinnte. Tá muid tar éis breathnú ar roinnt de na dréacht thuairiscí atá tagtha. Tá roinnt cur i láthair déanta ag an bhForas Taighde Oideachais dúinn, ar an ngnóthachtáil ach go háirithe. D’imigh sé amach agus rinne sé an ghnóthachtáil a mheas ó thaobh teanga de sna scoileanna. Bhí sé ar intinn againn go mbeadh gnóthachtáil tomhaiste roimh agus i ndiaidh an pholasaí ach níor éirigh linn é sin a fháil de bharr Covid-19. Tá sé an-suimiúil nuair a bhreathnaítear ar na sonraí sin agus ar chumas teanga na bpáistí, ag brath ar an nGaeltacht agus na Gaeltachtaí éagsúla. Beidh muid in ann foghlaim uaidh sin agus ó thuairimí na dtuismitheoirí agus na scoileanna.

Is éard atá ag teacht chun cinn ná go bhfuil an-dul chun cinn ó thaobh caighdeánú trasna na scoileanna Gaeltachta. Mar shampla, tá an luath tumoideachais iomláin ar bun sna scoileanna uilig. Tá an-chuid cleachtas feabhsaithe de bharr an pholasaí sin. Tá scoileanna ag teacht le chéile leis an bpobal leis an bpleanálaí teanga chomh maith. Tá rudaí dearfacha mar sin ag teacht chun cinn.

Chomh maith leis sin, tá dúshláin ann, gan amhras, ó thaobh cumas teanga de i gceantair éagsúla, an méid teanga a úsáidtear lasmuigh den scoil agus na deiseanna cainte sin. Tá tionchar agus éifeacht an-mhaith cloiste againn ón méid atá feicthe agus faighte againn ón Fhoras Taighde Oideachais. Beidh dúshláin ann gan amhras chomh maith.

Sa chéad pholasaí eile, beidh muid ag díriú ar na dúshláin sin agus ag leanúint ar an aistear sin leis na scoileanna.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cén uair a bheidh an chéad pholasaí eile ann? Braitheann sé ar an tuarascáil.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Braitheann sé ar an tuarascáil.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Beidh tuarascáil eile ar feadh tréimhse eile ó thaobh oideachas Gaeltachta de.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Is é sin an plean atá againn. Beidh muid ag breathnú air sin.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Maidir leis na scoileanna a bhfuil aitheantas faighte acu, cé mhéad acu siúd nár ghlac páirt sa phróiseas?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Ag tús na scéime aitheantais, bhí 102 scoil san iomlán. Tá 102 bunscoil sa scéim aitheantais i mbliana. Chuir 29 iar-bhunscoil isteach uirthi chomh maith agus tá siad linn sa scéim aitheantais faoi láthair. Astu siúd, beidh 102 bunscoil agus 19 iar-bhunscoil ag fáil aitheantais.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá 19 iar-bhunscoil ag fáil aitheantais as na 29 scoil sin. Tá na bunscoileanna uilig ag fáil aitheantais.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Tá gach uile cheann de na bunscoileanna ag fáil aitheantais.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Cé mhéad scoil atá lonnaithe sa Ghaeltacht nár ghlac páirt?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Labhróidh mé faoin stad reatha. Tá dhá scoil a bhog isteach sa Ghaeltacht, mar a tharlaíonn. Bhí 27 scoil ag an tús nár chuir isteach. Anois, tá an figiúr sin ardaithe go 29 scoil nach bhfuil ag glacadh páirt sa scéim toisc gur bhog dhá scoil isteach sa Ghaeltacht idir an dá linn.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá na scoileanna sin lonnaithe sa Ghaeltacht, ach, ar chúiseanna éagsúla, ní raibh siad sásta páirt a ghlacadh sa scéim. Bhí próiseas ann agus bhí deis acu teacht isteach níos déanaí, ach níor tharla sé sin.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Gach uile bhliain, ó thosaigh muid leis an scéim seo, tá muid tar éis imlitir a sheoladh amach chuig na scoileanna ag fáiltiú roimh cibé scoil ar mian léi teacht isteach sa scéim. Tá dea-scéal againn i mbliana. Tá scoil nua tagtha isteach sa scéim agus í ag tosú ar an aistear anois sa tréimhse atá romhainn. Tá fáilte roimh cibé scoil ar mian léi teacht isteach sa scéim seo.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá an scéim oscailte mar sin.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Tá.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An bhfuil na tacaíochtaí uilig atá luaite ar fáil?

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Tá siad ar fáil do gach scoil atá sa scéim agus do gach scoil a thagann isteach sa scéim.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Beidh an tuarascáil thar a bheith suimiúil dúinn chun na mionsonraí a fháil amach.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Tá muid ag súil go mór leis an méid a thagann as.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Gabhaim buíochas le Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe.

Ag dul ar ais go dtí an tAire, tá muid go léir ag fanacht, cosúil leis na trí rún Fatima, don pholasaí do chúrsaí oideachais taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Tá dea-scéal, ar leibhéal amháin, mar tá creat don pholasaí againn. Tá sé léite agam. Is maith an rud é sin. Tá an creat léite agam, chomh maith leis an achoimre ón taighde a rinne SEALBHÚ. Is mian liom é seo a chíoradh amach, b’fhéidir. Bhí muid ag fanacht leis seo.

Ní hionann creat agus polasaí. Is ionann creat agus fráma nó skeleton. Is é sin an fáth nach bhfuil a lán rudaí lena raibh mé ag súil laistigh den chreat seo. An mbeidh dréachtpholasaí á fhoilsiú ag an Roinn agus próiseas comhairliúcháin eile i gceist ó thaobh polasaithe de, mar a bhí ann don pholasaí seo?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Ní bheidh. Tá sé beagnach críochnaithe. Bhí an comhairliúchán deireanach ar siúl ar an Aoine seo chaite. Tá sé sin críochnaithe. A comprehensive consultation process was conducted. In excess of 5,400 questionnaires were completed, 216 children and young people and 92 adults participated in focus groups, there were written submissions, and officials from the Department had bilateral meetings with 29 different organisations. As the Deputy said, the Department commissioned SEALBHÚ from DCU to analysis the responses received right throughout that consultation process. We have shared the framework to the policy and the Deputy referenced that. The consultation last Friday was to give stakeholders another opportunity to discuss the policy with officials from the Department. It is now up to the officials in the Department to draft a policy that will set out our vision for the Irish-medium sector outside of the Gaeltacht and identify how we can move forward with a new vision. I am expecting to receive that imminently, shortly or whatever phrase you want to put on that. The draft policy will then take some time for me to review.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Ba mhaith liom a bheith dearfach agus a bheith in ann a rá céad mílte fáilte roimh an pholasaí seo. Cé nach saineolaí mé, tá mé in ann rudaí a léamh agus tá dhá chluas le héisteacht agam. De réir mar a thuigim, tá míshástacht ar dhaoine agus eagraíochtaí ar an talamh ó thaobh an chreatpholasaí seo.

Tá sé léite agam go raibh cruinniú ar an Aoine seo chaite ina raibh aiseolas dearfach. Ní hé sin mo thuiscint air. De réir mo thuisceana, tá na daoine ar an talamh buartha ar cé chomh teibí is atá an rud seo gan sprioc ama, ceangal ama, beart nó gan aon cheart á chur isteach ó thaobh cearta oideachais Ghaeltachta, rud a bhí ina mholadh mór ag SEALBHÚ. Ag an bpointe seo, gan tuilleadh a rá, an bhfuil an tAire agus na hoifigigh i ndáiríre ag rá dúinn go raibh an t-aiseolas a fuair an Roinn dearfach agus go raibh daoine sásta leis an bpolasaí seo?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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What I am saying is that there was a comprehensive consultation process, as there are in most of the policies we develop within the Department. It is quite comprehensive to say there were 5,400 questionnaires, which were all completed. We had children and young people as part of the focus groups. There were written submissions received. Officials from the Department met with 29 different organisations. They were also met with again, as I said, last Friday. What the Deputy referenced originally was the framework. There has to come a point when the policy draft or otherwise is actually written up. That is ongoing at this point. It will be completed, I hope, imminently. I will receive it imminently. I will see what is made available in that draft and I will see from that point. There was quite considerable consultation.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tuigim é sin. Tá na haighneachtaí os mo chomhair. Bhí 10,499 ceistneoir, 159 aighneacht agus 308 duine ann. Níl mé chun am a chur amú anseo. Tá an t-eolas os mo chomhair. Tá a fhios agam go raibh aighneachtaí agus aiseolas ann. Is é croílár na ceiste, áfach, de réir mo thuisceana, ná nach bhfuil siad sásta leis an chreat don pholasaí seo. Tá sé ró theibí agus níl aon cheangal ama i gceist.E

Mar shampla, bhí moltaí déanta ag SEALBHÚ agus níor glacadh le cuid de na moltaí sin. Níl aon bhunús nó rationale, de réir mar a thuigim, leis. Mar shampla, moladh amháin ó SEALBHÚ ná gur cheart go mbeadh ceart ag tuismitheoirí in Éirinn oideachas trí mheán Ghaeilge a éileamh dá bpáistí agus gur cheart chomh maith go mbeadh dualgas ar na húdaráis chuí freastal ar an éileamh sin. Sin moladh láidir amháin gur chóir go mbeadh cearta ag tuismitheoirí. Moladh eile a bhí ag an eagraíocht ná gur chóir pleananna a leagadh amach ina mbeadh spriocanna cinnte, faoi mar atá i ndlínsí eile, mar shampla, An Bhreatain Bheag agus Tír na mBascach, le cur go mór leis an soláthar atá ann don oideachas trí mheán na Gaeilge. Tá mé ag déanamh moltaí a phiocadh agus b'fhéidir nach bhfuil sé sin féaráilte ach sin an t-aisfhreagra atá faighte agam. Tá dhá mholadh láidir i gceist agus níl siad luaite beag ná mór sa chreat.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Tuigim an méid atá á rá ag an Teachta. I understand what she is saying. I have not seen the draft. I did not receive it yet and therefore I cannot say what is in it. I do not know. The consultation process has been quite comprehensive. We will have to wait and see what emerges from it. I appreciate what the Deputy is saying, that they are not happy with the framework. She herself referenced that there is a difference between the framework and the policy. I have not yet seen it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is mór an trua é sin. Táimid anseo chun é a phlé inniu. Tá gá níos práinní anois a chur in iúl go mbeidh an polasaí mar dhréachtpholasaí agus tuilleadh comhairliúcháin a lorg ionas go mbeidh tuarascáil againn atá chomh dearfach agus spriocdhírithe leis seo. Tá eagla orm go bhfuil an creat, agus tá sé seo ráite agam faoi thrí, ró theibí. Níl ceangal ama i gceist leis, níl sé dírithe agus níl sé bunaithe ar chearta. Má tá sé fíor nach bhfuil formhór na dreamanna saineolaithe sásta leis an gcreat polasaí seo, an mbeadh an tAire sásta dréachtpholasaí a fhoilsiú agus próiseas comhairliúcháin eile a chur ar siúl ionas go mbeidh polasaí láidir againn don oideachas taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht? Tá géarchéim ann, agus táimid go léir ar aon intinn faoi sin. Is é sin an fáth go bhfuil gá práinneach le polasaí láidir.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I hear what the Deputy is saying. I have to reiterate that I have not seen it. I note the concerns she has expressed. I had better see what is in the policy and decide from there. It will be virtually impossible to keep everybody happy and ensure there is unanimous agreement; I will acknowledge that. I note what the Deputy is saying, I hear the concerns she has raised and I await the draft.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tagann dreamanna os ár gcomhair gach seachtain agus éistimid go cruinn leo. Sin an buntáiste atá againn. D'éisteamar leis an bhForas Pátrúnachta, Conradh na Gaeilge, Gaeloideachas, Tuismitheoirí na Gaeltachta agus dreamanna eile. Nílim fiú ag déanamh trácht ar na hagóidí taobh amuigh den Dáil ó thaobh an éileamh atá ar oideachas lán-Ghaeilge. Gan cearta a bheith sa pholasaí, ní fiú tráithnín é. Táimid ag an bpointe anois nach bhfuil an Roinn Oideachais ábalta freastal ar an éileamh fiú. Sin an bun teachtaireacht a thugtar le fios dúinn an t-am uilig. Níl an Roinn Oideachais ag coinneáil suas leis an éileamh atá ar an talamh ó thaobh oideachas trí mheán na Gaeilge. Is é sin an fáth a rabhamar ag tnúth leis an bpolasaí seo. Tús nua a bheadh ann agus deis déileáil leis an éileamh. Is rud thar a bheith dearfach é seo. Chualamar scéal maith faoi Synge Street CBS le déanaí.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Gan dabht.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is iontach an rud é sin. Tá éileamh ollmhór ann ó thaobh scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge de. Tá siad ag obair i bhfolús gan polasaí láidir.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is correct. There was and is a very positive story in Synge Street CBS. I congratulate everybody involved in bringing it to the point it is at. I particularly acknowledge the Edmund Rice Schools Trust, ERST, for its role in this. We look forward to this perhaps being a role model for others going forward, in addition to all the other efforts being made. I hear what the Deputy is saying about what she regards, and what has been communicated to her, as the challenges or shortcomings that would be anticipated in the draft. I must be clear that we have not seen it. This is a view that is being expressed in advance of the policy. I hear what the Deputy is saying. That is all I can say. Given that I have not seen the draft, I cannot say anything further.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Tá dhá phointe eile. Ó thaobh díolúintí de, agus bhí an tAire os ár gcomhair an bhliain seo caite, tá líon na ndíolúintí ó thaobh na Gaeilge de ag tabhairt cúis imní ollmhór do mhúinteoirí ar an talamh agus do thuismitheoirí. De réir mar a thuigim, tugadh níos mó ná 50,000 díolúintí. Más buan mo chuimhne, bhí tuairim eile ag an Aire ó thaobh na ,díolúintí de. Is ábhar buairt é an méid díolúintí atá ann. Bhí cruinniú againn inniu le Foras na Gaeilge agus bhí coincheap nó smaoineamh iontach acu ó thaobh an Gaelbhratach de agus é a úsáid mar thogra píolótach sna scoileanna ina bhfuil líon na ndíolúintí ró-ard. An mbeadh an tAire oscailte d'iarratas airgead nó acmhainní a chur ar fáil chun breathnú ar bhealaí difriúla dul i ngleic leis an fhadhb seo? Is fadhb ollmhór atá ann.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I am happy to look at anything. I hear that proposal. The exemptions were introduced in the first place primarily for children who were coming from abroad. They were then extended to cater for children with additional needs. Twenty-five percent of children in our schools present with a learning or additional need. In the entirety of the 1 million students we have, just over 6.7-6.9% of them are drawing down an exemption. It should be borne in mind that we have had an enormous increase in the diagnosis of children with additional needs as well as a considerable influx in young people coming from other countries, such as 18,000 Ukrainian students. I am giving that as a context.

I appreciate the great work done with Gaelbhratach. The Department supports the programme and has given significant financial resources to it. I am happy to look at any opportunities going forward. That said, we are already doing quite a deal of work in that area with Gaelbhratach, but if we can widen the scope I am open to looking at it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Maidir le daoine le míchumas nó deacrachtaí, is dócha go bhfuil an córas oideachais ag breathnú ar Ghaeilge mar mhíbhuntáiste seachas buntáiste. Is buntáiste é a bheith dátheangach nó trítheangach. Tá meon ann i dtaobh na Gaeilge nach bhfuil cabhrach. Bhí saineolaí os ár gcomhair agus chuir siad in iúl go bhfuil gach páiste in ann foghlaim leis na tacaíochtaí cuí. Easpa tacaíochtaí cuí do dhaoine le míchumas nó deacrachtaí foghlama is ea an easpa atá ann. Tá sé ró-éasca díolúine a fháil don ábhar Gaeilge. Sin pointe amháin. Pointe eile ná nach ndearna 23% de dhaltaí Gaeilge san ardteist. Sin figiúr thar a bheith ard. Tá neart ceisteanna eile agam agus tiocfaidh mé ar ais chucu. Tabharfaidh mé deis do na Teachtaí Dála eile teacht isteach.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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May I make one comment about special education and the view the Deputy believes the Department has toward children with additional needs or learning difficulties who avail of the exemption? It is quite staggering to think that 25% of our students present with some learning or additional need and yet only 7% of them are availing of an exemption. It is very clear in the circulars to the schools that we 100% ask and encourage schools to ensure that even if a young person may not be taking Irish as a particular subject, they would continue to be immersed and supported in appreciation of the language, culture and all of that.

In terms of the figures for the leaving certificate the Deputy referred to, in 2023-2024 leaving certificate, 61,000 students sat the exam. A total of 13,697 students did not sit the Irish exam, of which 4,355 did not hold an exemption. There are a variety of reasons as to why people did not turn up for the exam. A total of 4,817 students did not sit the maths exam, while 4,867 did not sit the English exam. That is always going to be part of the reality. To look at the figure in the round does not mean to say that it was all due to exemption. It is quite a reflection when more than 4,800 did not sit either the maths or English exams.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is dócha gurb é an rud a léim amach dúinn ná go raibh na daoine a fuair díolúintí in ann Fraincis nó Gearmáinis a fhoghlaim, ach bhí an córas ag breathnú ar Ghaeilge mar fhadhb. Tá mo dhóthain ráite ag an bpointe seo. Tabharfaidh mé deis do na baill eile.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Tá sé iontach go bhfuil an deis againn labhairt leis an Aire Oideachais agus lena Roinn faoi chúrsaí éagsúla. Tá mé beagáinín faoi bhrú ama mar go bhfuil cruinniú eile ar siúl agam ag an am céanna ach bhí mé ag iarraidh cúpla rud a ardú leis an Aire.

Táim ag iarraidh filleadh ar an gcreat don pholasaí don oideachas lán-Ghaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Téann sé ar ais chuig an gcraic seo faoi na spriocanna agus nach bhfuil a dhóthain spriocanna ann. Má bhreathnaímid ar an méid atá sa Bhreatain Bheag, mar shampla, tá spriocanna sonracha leagtha amach ag Rialtas na Breataine Bige faoi líon na ndaltaí a fhaigheann oideachas trí mheán na Breatnaise agus cé chomh hard atáthar ag iarraidh go mbeadh an líon seo. Tá Rialtas na Breataine Bige ag rá go bhfuil sé ag iarraidh líon na ndaltaí a ardú ó 23% go 40% faoi 2050. Tuigim gur creat den pholasaí é seo. Ag an bpointe seo cén fáth nach bhfuil na spriocanna sin san áireamh sa chreat seo? An mbeidh spriocanna leagtha amach sa leagan deireanach den pholasaí ionas go bhfuil sé iomlán soiléir cé mhéad dalta a bheidh ag déanamh a chuid oideachais trí mheán na Gaeilge agus líon na nGaelscoileanna nua a bhunófar? Bheadh sé sin suimiúil. An mbeidh sé sin ann go soiléir sa leagan deireanach? Cén fáth nach bhfuil sé mar chuid lárnach den chreat?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate what Deputy Connolly said. We are all at a disadvantage here because we have not seen the policy yet, draft or otherwise.

Deputy Farrell raised Wales, where I visited. I was very keen to see the remarkable progress that is being made there. I met with staff, young people and experts in that area to get a feel for how they were making progress. In terms of the specific question on whether the targets will be part of the policy, I have not seen the draft yet but it is overall ambition, it is even in the programme for Government that we want to see a doubling of students participating in Irish-medium education. There is a very clear determination there. Regarding what will be in the actual policy, I will have to wait until I see it. I expect to see it in the coming weeks, certainly within the coming months. It is clearly an aim of the programme for Government at the very least. Approximately 57,000 pupils are going through Irish-medium education. The aim is to double that again to 114,000. That is a programme for Government ambition and I anticipate that there would be a similar ambition in the policy.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Má tá sé sin mar chuid den chlár Rialtais agus tá an Rialtas anseo le ceithre bliana go leith anuas, nach gciallaíonn sé sin go bhfuil an sprioc sin ag an Rialtas anois?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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That is what we are at currently. From the start to the end of the Government, we will be looking at every point to double the numbers between now and the next ten years or whatever. We are making progress-----

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Níl mé ag rá nach bhfuil. Tá mé ag iarraidh an tuiscint sin a bheith agam maidir le céard go díreach a bhí i gceist ag an Aire. An bhfuil sí ag rá anois go mbeidh an Rialtas ag iarraidh an figiúr a dhúbailt ó dheireadh na bliana?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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No. At whatever point we look we look at it from and whatever base we are looking at, it is the overall aim of Government that we would, at the very least, double the numbers that are availing of education through Irish, in whatever form that may be.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Ach i gceann cúig bliana eile?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I imagine that within the next ten years we will see a doubling of the numbers of students availing of education through Irish, including the previous four years. We have six years left. Within ten years we would like to see a doubling of the numbers.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Ní thuigim go díreach mar gheall go bhfuil clár Rialtais ann le cúig bliana anuas. Dúirt an tAire nach bhfuil an dréacht den pholasaí feicthe aici. Tuigim é sin. An mbeidh cineál sign-off ag an Aire ar an bpolasaí sin? Más rud é nach bhfuil na spriocanna ann, agus tá súil agam go mbeidh agus gach uile shórt mar sin, an mbeidh an tAire an duine ar féidir léi an dréacht a fhoilsiú sula bhfoilseofar é chun a chinntiú go gcuirfear na spriocanna isteach ann?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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The last consultation on this only took place last Friday. I have absolutely no idea what is going to be in this. I imagine, given that the vision, aim and objective is to strengthen the Irish language, that there will be objectives and aims within it that are distinct from the framework referred to earlier. The framework is a skeleton or a sort of overview. There will be stronger evidence, detail and impetus as to how we will achieve what we are seeking to achieve provided for in the draft. I cannot say until I see it, however.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Tuigim é sin. Táim cinnte go mbeidh níos mó sonraí ann tar éis an phlé agus aiseolais a bhí ann, ach an tAire an duine a dhéanann an cinneadh, nach í?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Ultimately I will sign off on it.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Más rud é gurb í an tAire a bheidh ag déanamh sign-off ar an dréacht, impím uirthi cinntiú go mbeidh spriocanna ann. Nuair atá an dréacht feicthe aici, is féidir léi an sign-off a dhéanamh. Beidh mé ag impí uirthi go mbeadh na spriocanna ann mar gheall ar líon na ndaltaí in oideachas lán-Ghaeilge. Tá an t-impí seo ag teacht uaim, duine a d'fhoghlaim a cuid Gaeilge ar scoil. Is é sin an bealach gur fhoghlaim mé mo chuid Gaeilge. Chomh maith leis sin, impím ar an Aire go mbeidh spriocanna ann mar gheall ar líon na scoileanna a mhúineann trí mheán na Gaeilge mar sin ceann de na bealaí is fearr leis an nGaeilge a chur chun cinn ionas go mbeidh Gaeilge líofa ag daoine óga agus tá súil againn go leanfaidh siad ar aghaidh ag labhairt na Gaeilge. Sin atá mé ag impí ar an Aire mar gheall go bhfuil an sign-off sin aici.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Tá a fhios agam.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Tá ceist eile agam agus ba mhaith liom a rá díreach faoi na díolúintí freisin. Tuigim gur ardaigh mé é seo leis an Aire cheana nuair a bhí sí os comhair an choiste. Caithfidh mé a rá go n-aontaím leo siúd atá buartha faoi seo. Ní hé sin le rá go bhfuilim ag tabhairt amach nó tada mar sin ach tá mé ag rá go gcaithfimid breathnú ar na figiúirí agus, uaireanta, caithfimid a rá linn féin, más rud é go bhfuil sé seo ag tarlú, más rud é go bhfuil líon na ndíolúintí ag ardú, agus más rud é go bhfuil an ceart ag an méid atá ráite ag an Teachta Connolly go bhfuil líon daoine ag fáil díolúintí don Ghaeilge ach fós atá ag suí a gcuid Gearmáinise agus Fraincise nó pé rud é, go bhfuil fadhb ann. Tá mise á rá sin ag teacht ó theaghlach nár labhair Béarla sa bhaile agus muid ag fás aníos. Bhí sé an-aisteach ag an am mar ní raibh an oiread sin daoine ag labhairt teangacha éagsúla seachas Gaeilge agus Béarla sa bhaile. Cé nach raibh Gaeilge ag mo chuid tuismitheoirí, bhí mé in ann, le linn dom a bheith ag dul ar scoil, an teanga a fhoghlaim. Is minic nuair a bhíonn níos mó ná teanga amháin agat ón mbaile, go bhfuil sé i bhfad níos éasca teanga eile a fhoghlaim. Tuigimid é sin ar fad. Is minic agus feictear é agus daoine ag bogadh go hÉirinn go bhfuil na daoine seo ag iarraidh an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim mar gheall go dtuigeann siad cé chomh tábhachtach is atá teangacha difriúla, agus go bhfuil tuairimí agus tuiscintí éagsúla ag daoine le teangacha difriúla agus chuile shórt mar sin. Mar gheall air sin ar fad, nuair atáimid ag caint faoi dhíolúintí, tá sé fíorthábhachtach go mbreathnaímid ar na fíricí agus más rud é go bhfuil deacracht ann, go mbeimid ionraic faoi agus go ndéanfaimid ár ndícheall breathnú air sin.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate what the Deputy is saying. It is interesting to note that the exemptions at primary school level have decreased. This has not been by a huge amount but they have decreased from 3.25% in 2017-2018 to 2.9%. They have increased at post-primary level from 9% to approximately 13%. There are 25% of the general student cohort who have a learning or additional need, and 60% of those students who do not study a modern foreign language.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Ach tá 40% a dhéanann staidéar ar cheann.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It depends. This is just of the young people with additional needs, and they have different levels of need.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Is é sin díreach díobh siúd. An bhfuil na figiúirí ag an Aire faoi na cinn eile?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Níl.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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An mbeadh an tAire in ann iad a sheoladh chuig an gcoiste, b'fhéidir?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Bheadh siad sin suimiúil a fháil amach.

Is í an cheist eile atá agam ná faoi shonraíocht T1 sa teastas sóisearach. An féidir leis an Aire beagáinín eolais a thabhairt dúinn air sin, cá bhfuilimid, an t-aiseolas agus mar sin de, ag an bpointe seo, más féidir?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy will be aware, a review of that is ongoing and will be completed in 2026. That will give us a better insight into what is being achieved currently in comparison with what was there previously. Even with things like oral Irish, when there was an option for that to be provided as part of the junior cycle, 40% of schools availed of that, whereas with the new class-based assessment, the second class-based assessment is based on the engagement with the language and all of that, including the oral proficiency of the student. All students take that. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this review or study.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Cén uair a thosaigh an t-athbhreithniú sin?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It started in 2023 but there was a break prior to that because of Covid-19 or some such thing. Does Ms O’Connor wish to speak on that point?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

An early enactment review was carried out of the junior cycle T1 and T2 but Covid-19 happened during the review, so while we had an early enactment review done, we felt that we needed something more comprehensive. We are having a second review done now and that started in 2023 and, as the Minister has said, that is looking at the junior cycle cohort. It will take three years for the cohort to go through, so that will be completed in 2026. That will be looking at T1 and T2.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Cé hiad na príomhdhaoine atá an Roinn i dteagmháil leo faoin athbhreithniú seo?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor:

It is being conducted by SEALBHÚ and DCU on behalf of the NCCA. They will be consulting all the stakeholders.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I dtaobh an scrúdaithe béil a luaigh an tAire, tuigim nach bhfuil an scrúdú béil luaite ansin sa chreat, nó an bhfuilim mícheart faoi sin? Táimid ag dul ar ais go dtí an creatpholasaí don Ghaeilge taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht.

Ms Lisa Nic Dhoinnléibhe:

Níl. Toisc go bhfuil próiseas athbhreithnithe ar siúl ar na sonraíochtaí, níl na sonraí cuí laistigh de scóip an chreatpholasaí go ginearálta toisc go bhfuil an t-athbhreithniú sin á dhéanamh go neamhspleách.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Maidir le múineadh agus múinteoirí ar na hoileáin amach ón gcósta, an chabhair, na liúntais agus mar sin de, agus chomh maith leis sin, go mbreathnaítear uaireanta ar na deacrachtaí atá ag na scoileanna seo amhail is go bhfuil siad ar an mórthír cé nach bhfuil siad, ábhar a d'ardaigh mé leis an Aire cheana, an bhfuil an tAire ag smaoineamh, nó ar bhreathnaigh sí cheana, ar athbhreithniú a dhéanamh air sin agus ar an mbealach a bhreathnaítear ar na scoileanna sin? Is dócha gur cuimhin leis an Aire an bhliain seo caite nuair a d'ardaigh mé léi cás scoláire atá in ainm is a bheith ceaptha i rang speisialta agus go ndúradh leo, mar gheall nach bhfuil seisear díobh ann, nach féidir leo an rang speisialta sin a fháil, cé go bhfuil sé deacair é sin a bhaint amach agus nach dtarlóidh de bharr go bhfuil siad ar oileán agus nach bhfuil ach seisear díobh ann. Ar smaoinigh an tAire riamh faoi pholasaí ar leith a dhéanamh nó athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar an mbealach a phléitear leis na scoileanna sin?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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We are prepared to look at every opportunity. For example, we have satellite schools and supports operating where there are existing schools in place but they cannot get the support of additional teachers so we do that by satellite. Specifically, I understand the Deputy is asking around lowering the numbers if there are, for example, only six students on an island.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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No, an rud a bhí i gceist agam ná más rud é go bhfuil duine amháin le riachtanais speisialta ach tá siad ag rá go gcaithfear seisear a bheith sa rang le cúnamh a thabhairt dó nó di. Ar smaoinigh an Roinn breathnú air sin? Tá a fhios agam go raibh an tAire ag plé leis an gceist.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair point.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Ní hé go díreach maidir leis an gcás sin amháin ach go mbreathnóimid air go ginearálta, mar tarlóidh sé seo arís, agus ar rudaí cosúil leis sin ina iomláine agus plé leis na scoileanna ar na hoileáin amach ón gcósta cad iad na deacrachtaí sin. Tá sé sin go maith gur féidir níos mó ábhar a dhéanamh. Tá a fhios agam nuair a bhí mé ar an meánscoil lán-Ghaeilge go raibh mé ag iarraidh stair a dhéanamh don ardteistiméireacht agus ní raibh mé in ann í a dhéanamh. Is maith an rud é go bhfuil Zoom agus mar sin de ar fáil agus ag tarlú, ach an féidir linn breathnú ar rudaí eile freisin?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair point and is perhaps something we could look at. If there is specific instance the Deputy has-----

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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D’ardaigh mé leis an Aire cheana agus dúirt mé léi faoi.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I can ask the NCSE to address that issue go ginearálta.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Cé go bhfuilimid ag plé le cúrsaí Gaeltachta, ós rud é go bhfuilimid ag plé le cúrsaí na hoileáin amach ón gcósta chomh maith, tá mé ag iarraidh díreach a rá leis an Aire arís faoi Inis Bó Finne. Teastaíonn meánscoil ann. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuilimid ag plé le cúrsaí Gaeltachta inniu, ach d'ardaigh mé an cheist seo roinnt uaireanta agus tá mé ag iarraidh é a lua arís leis an Aire.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I know that is an issue close to the Deputy’s heart.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Tá an cuma air go mbeidh muid ag críochnú timpeall a sheacht a chlog do vóta. Iarraim ar chomhaltaí atá tar éis a rá liom go bhfuil siad ag iarraidh teacht isteach air seo a bheith beagáinín gasta. Is é an chéad chomhalta eile le labhairt ná an Teachta Ó Murchú. Labhróidh an Seanadóir Seán Kyne ina dhiaidh, atá ar líne. Is é an t-ord ina dhiaidh sin ná an Teachta Ó Cuív, an Teachta McHugh agus mé féin.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Tá mé ag iarraidh déileáil le coláistí samhraidh agus mná tí. Tá líon na mban tí sa Ghaeltacht tar éis titim 30% ó 2017. An aithníonn an tAire go bhfuil luach ar leith ag baint le gach bean an tí agus go gcailleann daltaí agus an tír amach ar shaibhreas agus luach na teanga gach uair a éiríonn duine acu as? An aithníonn an tAire go bhfuil géarchéim ann? An bhfuil plean aici chun mná tí a chóiméad agus a mhealladh ar ais? An mbeidh sí sásta scéim fhoghlaim na Gaeilge a ardú fosta?

Tá mé ag caint faoi thacaíocht fosta. Ó tharla Covid-19, agus i gcomhthéacs líon na mban tí ag titim agus an costas maireachtála ag ardú, tá sé deacair do choláistí samhraidh Ghaeltachta coinneáil ag feidhmiú. An bhfuil an tAire sásta an deontas caipitíochta do choláistí samhraidh a thabhairt ar ais? Is í sin mo chéad cheist.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I absolutely appreciate the work of the mná tí. The whole purpose of students having an opportunity to experience living with a family and all of that is supportive of the language. The area of mná tí specifically falls within the Department of tourism.

In terms of the supports we are in a position to provide, the capitation grant was removed after the recession. We are in the middle of budget negotiations, engagements and discussions at this time. Obviously, everything is on the table. Where we have capacity and where there are no competing demands, we look at everything. I wish to be clear that I am aware of the enormous advantage for students when they have an opportunity to stay in a home to experience family life and the natural experience of the Gaeltacht every day. It is a good experience for students.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Más rud é go bhfuil muid ag caint ar Ghaeloideachas, agus tá mé ag caint faoi achan rud ó naíonraí, bunscoileanna agus meánscoileanna go dtí na coláistí, cad é an polasaí nó an plean ina leith? Is dócha go bhfuil plean de dhíth mar gheall air seo agus córas a chur i bhfeidhm chun é seo a chur i bhfeidhm.

Bhí an tAire ag caint faoi scoileanna satailíte. Tá ceann acu i nDún Dealgan faoin am seo, is í sin Gaelcholáiste Dhún Dealgan. Tá Coláiste Ghlór na Mara i mBaile Brigín fosta. Tá cuid mhór tacaíochta de dhíth, áfach, agus cuid mhór le déanamh ag an Roinn chun córas ceart a chur i bhfeidhm chun go mbeidh níos mó tacaíochta ann don Ghaeloideachas agus chun go mbeidh daoine in ann Gaeilge a labhairt ón naíonra go dtí an coláiste.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Interestingly, almost as an aside, there has been a positive announcement today in terms of scholarships being provided for students in DEIS schools. That is a support being provided by Government. It is really positive that opportunities like that are provided to all young people and, in particular, to young people who may have challenges in availing of these opportunities. These DEIS scholarships will help that.

In terms of early years right through to the entire experience of school, as I said earlier, the Department is taking a staged approach. There is a comprehensive policy being worked through in the first instance. We set the policy on Gaeltacht education presently and we are nearing competition of the policy on Irish-medium education outside the Gaeltacht. Finally, we are about to commence the policy framework and action plan to support Irish- and English-medium schools. The Department of children is currently developing a national plan on Irish-language provision for early learning and school-aged childcare. Taken together, these policies and initiatives, including those of other Departments, are about providing a comprehensive policy and commitment for the Irish language from pre-primary education right through to teacher education for all schools. There is a strong body of work being done in this regard. We recognise we are seeing an increase in the number of young people availing of education through Irish. In the past ten years, we have seen an increase of nearly 2,500 students at primary level and an increase of almost 3,000 students at post-primary level. That is not to say, with the work we are completing, that there is not a lot more work required to be done.

We are also providing significant supports as a Department to encourage teachers to make themselves available. We have the B.Oid where we are making provision for 30 places; the máistreacht in the University of Galway; the Gaeltacht recognition scheme; a Gael aonad which has been specifically set up in Oide; upskilling courses in Irish; the Irish language unit in the Department; and, for English-medium schools, we have e-hubs. There are a lot of supports being provided with the overall and singular ambition to improve opportunities and widen access to Irish-medium education.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is dócha go bhfuil action plan de dhíth ar an Roinn chun i bhfad níos mó tacaíochta, cúrsaí agus scoileanna a bheith ann. Tá mé ag caint go háirithe ar mheánscoileanna a bhunú. Caithfidh sé a bheith i bhfad níos éasca chun na scoileanna seo a bhunú. Is í sin an fhadhb atá ann i láthair na huaire. Déanfaidh sé sin cúis. Gabhaim buíochas.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is é an Seanadóir Seán Kyne an chéad duine eile le labhairt. Tá sé ar líne.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Is deas í a fheiceáil ag an gcruinniú seo. Tá cúpla ceist agam maidir leis na Gaelcholáistí agus an Ghaeilge. De réir mo thuisceana, tá a lán rudaí in easnamh sa chreat don pholasaí don oideachas lán-Ghaeilge a chuir an Roinn amach cúpla seachtain ó shín. Níl spriocanna d’fhás na Gaelscolaíochta luaite ná aon ghealltanas ann do liúntas do mhúinteoirí ag oibriú i scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge le haitheantas a thabhairt don obair bhreise a bhíonn le déanamh acu agus chun cuidiú le hearcaíocht sna scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge. Tá a fhios agam gur cuireadh deireadh leis na liúntais sin i rith na géarchéime. An gceapann an tAire go bhfuil sé in am anois, cé go bhfuil an buiséad ag feabhsú, aitheantas a thabhairt do mhúinteoirí sna Gaelcholáistí trasna na tíre?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator for his question. The reference to allowances refers to all allowances, not just those in respect of the Gaeltacht. The Department has implemented the outcome of the public-service-wide review of allowances and premium payments by the Department of public expenditure. This meant many allowance were no longer payable to new entrant teachers from 1 February 2012. Among those allowances withdrawn were the teaching through Irish allowance and the Gaeltacht allowance. Amendments to teacher terms and conditions can only be achieved through engagement and agreement between the Government and the public service unions. For example, over the course of recent collective agreements, amendments have been agreed, including that new entrant teachers have an equivalent of an honours primary degree allowance integrated into their salary scale. Any further amendments to alter the allowance paid to teachers will give rise to significant costs, obviously. At the same time, it would have to be agreed through the mechanisms that are there.

Under the current public service agreement, a local bargaining fund is to be established whereby additional changes and rates of pay under conditions of employment can be negotiated between the Government and the unions. The teacher unions have indicated that the restoration of these allowances are among the claims they wish to consider as part of this bargaining process. We will see how that proceeds.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as sin. An aontaíonn sí go bhfuil breis dualgais ag múinteoirí sna Gaelcholáistí nach bhfuil ag múinteoirí eile?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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In the first instance I acknowledge that there are responsibilities for all teachers and staff irrespective of the medium through which they teach. I attended an excellent event today in which young people from all over the country showcased the work they are doing through the Cineáltas programme by the Department. I recognised that the delivery of that programme and the opportunities it provides for children and young people was made possible by staff who stepped up to organise that for and with them. We are very fortunate that we have staff who provide additional opportunities for students along with their general responsibilities, teaching or otherwise.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Maidir le hobair na boird oideachais agus oiliúna, an gceapann an tAire gur chóir go mbeadh daoine sinsearacha le Gaeilge ar na boird nuair atá siad ag déileáil leis na Gaeltachtaí agus scoileanna sna Gaeltachtaí? Tá sé ráite nach bhfuil orthu daoine atá líofa sa Ghaeilge a earcú le haghaidh poist stiúrtha sinsearacha. Mar shampla, bhí muid ag déileáil le Bord Oideachais agus Oiliúna na Gaillimhe agus Ros Comáin le déanaí agus thug an príomhfheidhmeannach le fios nár ghá don bhord daoine atá líofa sa Ghaeilge a earcú, cé go bhfuil dualgas ar an ETB bheith ag plé le scoileanna sna Gaeltachtaí.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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It is certainly desirable. If a person attains a position of director, whatever that directorship might be, there is further education and training available to improve proficiency in Irish. That said, fluency is certainly desirable and could be helpful in the role. As long as an individual is prepared to upscale their Irish if it is part of their post remit, much as we are currently providing to staff in our schools, I would be pleased that they would do that.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Fáiltím roimh an Aire. Níl mórán ama againn agus tá go leor ceisteanna agam. Déanfaidh mé iarracht bheith gonta. Fáiltím roimh an ráiteas ginearálta maidir leis an bplé atá ar bun leis an Roinn leanaí faoin luathoideachas agus cúram do ghasúir. Tagraítear do chúraimí agus luathoideachas lán-Ghaeilge. Rud amháin atá suntasach sna figiúirí atá againn ná go dtéann formhór gasúir na tíre tríd scoileanna nach scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge iad. Tá aithne agamsa ar dhaoine a rinne sealbhú iontach ar an nGaeilge ó Thuath i dtrí scoileanna a bhí ag teagasc trí Bhéarla. An raibh aon phlé ag Roinn an Aire leis an Roinn leanaí maidir le gné Ghaeilge a thabhairt isteach i gcúram leanaí go ginearálta, trí fhíseán, téipeanna beaga, rannta, nó dánta a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge? Tá an cheist chéanna agam faoin luathoideachas atá faoi chúram Roinn an Aire. Níl aon cheist faoi ach go bpiocann gasúir de bhliain, dhá bhliain nó trí bliana dhá theanga suas chomh héasca le teanga amháin. Nílimid in ann é sin a dhéanamh mar dhaoine fásta, ach tá gasúir in ann é a dhéanamh gan stró ar bith. Aisteach go leor, tá siad in ann é a dhéanamh go gramadúil agus go ceart. Sin é an chéad cheist atá agam.

Bhí sracfhéachaint agam ar an gcreat den pholasaí oideachas lán-Ghaeilge agus ní fheicim aon chosán soiléir maidir le bunú scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge le freastal ar riachtanas. Ní fheicim, mar shampla, aon mholadh go mbogfaimid ón gcóras atá ann i láthair na huaire. Sa chóras atá againn faoi láthair, má tá scoil nua le bunú, bíonn pátrúin Gaelscoileanna in iomaíocht le pátrúin scoileanna Bhéarla. Má tá 1,000 duine ag iarraidh scoil sa cheantar agus 800 acu siúd ag iarraidh scoil Bhéarla agus 200 ag iarraidh scoil Ghaeilge, ní thógfar scoil Ghaeilge. Mura dtéimid i ngleic leis sin sa pholasaí oideachais trí Ghaeilge, beidh teip orainn.

An tríú phointe ná go bhfeicim tagairtí do sholáthar múinteoirí oilte, go mór mór sna meánscoileanna, áit a bhfuil géarchéim sna hábhair éagsúla, atá in ann feidhmiú i suíomh lán-Ghaeilge. Tá fadhb ollmhór ag na scoileanna. Bhí mé as baile, ar an taobh eile den Atlantach, go dtí inniu, so níor éirigh liom gach rud a léamh go mion. An bhfuil plé ar bun leis an Roinn Oideachais le cinntiú go mbeidh soláthar múinteoirí atá in ann teagasc trí Ghaeilge?

Tá tagairt ann do T1 agus T2. Ó thaobh na hardteiste, caithfimid seo a ardú. Is í fírinne an scéil ná gur rás pointí atá san ardteist anois le fáil isteach sna coláistí tríú leibhéal. Mura bhfuil buntáiste leis an gcúrsa deacair a dhéanamh agus más féidir le dalta na pointí céanna a fháil don CAO tríd an gcúrsa éasca a dhéanamh, tuige nach ndéanfadh fiú na cainteoirí is dúchasaí ar domhan sin? Más féidir le dalta A1, nó cibé bealach a dhéantar anois é, a thabhairt leo go héasca, cén fáth nach ndéanfadh siad sin? Go dtí go ndéileálfar leis sin, níl aon ghlacadh agamsa leis an gcóras T1 agus T2 mar a luaitear. Feictear domsa nach mbeadh duine ina ciall a dhéanfadh an cúrsa deacair nuair atá siad in ann an leas céanna a bhaint ón gcúrsa éasca a dhéanamh ó thaobh pointí de. Is rás pointí é, cuma má thaitníonn sé sin nó nach dtaitníonn sé linn. Sin mar atá i láthair na huaire. Tuige nach ndéanfadh siad an cúrsa níos éasca dá bhfaigheadh siad na pointí ceannann céanna as ucht leath na hoibre? Dá mbeadh mise ar an scoil, sin a dhéanfainn.

Cuireadh an cheist seo ar an Aire cheana ach táim chun é a chur ar bhealach difriúil. Céard atá an Roinn Oideachais chun a dhéanamh le cinntiú go mbeidh soláthar agus freastal trí mheán na Gaeilge á dhéanamh ag leithéidí boird oideachais ar fud na tíre ar scoileanna Gaeltachta agus lán-Ghaeilge? Níl sé sin ag tarlú i láthair na huaire agus ní féidir linn bheith ag brath ar dea-thoil. Ba cheart go mbeadh sé de cheart ag scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge agus Gaeltachta go ndéanfaí freastal orthu trí mheán na Gaeilge. Céard atá muid chun a dhéanamh leis sin a chinntiú? An mbeidh rud éigin sa pholasaí oideachais lán-Ghaeilge leis sin a dhearbhú?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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On the Deputy’s first question, there is very strong collaboration between my Department and the Department of children. As recently as this month alone, officials from the two Departments met to discuss the national plan for Irish. There is collaboration there. I know it has always been the Deputy's view that there is benefit to students in speaking more than one language. I agree with him. Modern foreign languages have been introduced at primary level, and whichever modern language is chosen by the school will complement the Irish language.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for interrupting. When you are around children - the Minister has been around more children than me because she has been teaching all of her life - you know that children of one, two and three years of age soak up languages like a sponge, in a way that even a ten-year-old cannot. It seems to me that we are wasting a huge opportunity by not introducing children in a very passive way to the Irish language through a huge State investment in preschool, childcare and so on. As I have said, we have a great deal of technology. People think technology is a threat, but I see it as an opportunity if we use it in a positive way. There is a great deal of technology, even for people who do not have Irish, to introduce Irish around the child at a very young age. It seems to me that when you can get two for the price of one-----

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we are seeking to do that. That is the purpose of the engagement between the Department of children and ourselves. We are working together. Many of our primary and post-primary initiatives are making their way into early years education. I refer to things like the DEIS programme, the extension of which is being considered. There is no reason that cannot happen language-wise. I agree that the earlier the children have this opportunity, the better it is all around.

As the Deputy is aware, there were calls for a review of the T1 and T2 structure. There was an ongoing review there. There will also be a new curriculum for the redesigned senior cycle with reimagining and redevelopment. The new curriculum will come out in stages. The new Irish curriculum is due to come in the final tranche of this in 2028. In the interim, the work around T1 and T2 is ongoing. As I said, we have the new curriculum coming on stream also. I know that the Deputy has a very strong view as regards the points raised on the question of T1 and T2. It is for that reason that the review will look at international research and all other research. That will inform the thinking going forward.

On the work we are doing on teacher supply, the Deputy will be aware of programmes like the Baitsiléir san Oideachas Trí Mheán na Gaeilge, where 30 places are being provided by the Department. The masters course is also being provided for. We are running an upskilling course in Irish beginning in January 2025, free of charge, to those who wish to participate in it. Equally, over the summer months, more than 330 teachers availed of upskilling through an Irish course. We will be doing something similar at post-primary level going forward. We are very conscious of the need to ensure in the first instance that we are making provision for sufficiency of teachers going forward and that we are supporting teachers who are in place. On that point, there is a dedicated Irish-language unit within the Department to support teaching in Irish- and English-medium schools. We are happy to look at more resources. There is a dedicated Gael-aonad in Oide, which is the wing of the Department that provides ongoing training and upskilling for staff. A number of initiatives have been brought in and there will be more as we go forward.

On the framework, I just want to say that it is just that - a framework. We had this discussion earlier with Deputy Connolly. It is a framework and will be very different in policy. I have not received that yet but I will receive it in due course.

I will make a point around Irish-medium education. When two new primary schools are coming on stream and there is no provision for Irish education, one of those schools will be deemed an Irish-medium provision. There are also policies in place which would support this education where there is an absence of the provision of Irish-medium education.

There was one further point about the ETBs. That was referred to earlier when I said it is important if one is dealing with a Gaelscoil or a Gaelcholáiste that the proficiency in Irish is there. Obviously, that is more than desirable. Anybody who is in that role and dealing directly in that respect should have provision made to support them. If teachers do not have proficiency in Irish, they will have a means of upgrading their proficiency in Irish. I believe the Deputy is looking for an entire dedicated ETB. Is that the case?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am looking for any way the Department can provide all services to all Irish-language schools through Irish. I do not see every ETB in the country being able to do that. It is impossible to get the resources together to do that because one would virtually need bilingual staff in every ETB. The only other way is to concentrate it and to say that with so many ETB schools and with so much training being done - in the Gaeltacht, the key bit is the education bit - there should be a dedicated unit which would be able to provide a wide range of services through the medium of Irish. Otherwise, it is a question of compulsory English. We are great at counting the figures. The amount of money that is being spent on buildings for Irish-language schools has been mentioned. Of course, if I asked about the money being spent on English-language schools and on supporting the English language, I would be told that it comes to billions of euros. I support the provision of services in Irish to create a real atmosphere. Otherwise, young people cotton on that this is a kind of token thing. They realise that when the real business has to be done, even their own school has to deal in English with the agencies of the Department of Education.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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The legislation does not currently allow for the setting up of another ETB. I can pre-empt what the Deputy will say next, but he might appreciate that I am just giving him the information on the situation at present. Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, would say that it has an education policy and development officer who has specific responsibility for Irish-medium education in ETB schools. That officer has been instrumental in offering targeted supports to the directors of schools and school leaders who are doing the work as Gaeilge and know what needs to be done. That is where the legislation and the ETBI stand at present. There is an officer in place who is supporting the delivery of Irish in Irish-medium schools.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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To put it in simple English, tá seacht gcinn de scoileanna, there are seven Gaeltacht or all-Irish schools under the ETB in Galway and Roscommon. It fails to provide services to them through Irish. Previously, that was implemented here. I do not want to pick on one board but that is probably the one with the greatest number or concentration of schools. It is not happening and all I am saying is that it should happen. I do not care how it happens. It must be alive. Let us hope and pray that people upskill and all of the rest. It has to be there as a kind of fundamental organised thing.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I say to the Deputy that I am only outlining where we are at present. That is not to say that things cannot change going forward. I am setting out the present provision under the current legislation.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is dead right about what I would say to her about legislation.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I know. I should also say I acknowledge that Deputy Ó Cuív has indicated that he is stepping aside from his current role. I want to acknowledge that here. I acknowledge his fantastic engagement, particularly to do with all things educational. It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge that here.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh míle maith ag an Aire.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Ní stopfaidh an Teachta Ó Cuív de bheith mar thairne i dtaobh an Aire. Glaoim anois ar an Teachta McHugh.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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Fearaim fáilte roimh an Aire agus a cuid oifigeach fosta, ina measc Evelyn O’Connor agus Tomás Ó Ruairc. Bhíomar ag obair go cóngarach le chéile cúpla bliain ó shin.

Don chéad uair, táim ar an leathanach céanna leis an Teachta Ó Cuív inniu - is lá stairiúil é. Aontaím leis faoi na daoine óga ag foghlaim na Gaeilge. Níl roth úr de dhíth. Tá sé le feiceáil in achan Ghaelscoil laistigh den Ghaeltacht tríd an leanúnachas ó na naíonraí go dtí an bhunscoil go dtí an mheánscoil. Nuair atá siad óg, tá deis ann níos mó dul chun cinn a dhéanamh. Táim ag amharc ar an Bhreatain Bheag. Tá sprioc shuntasach ann líon na ndaoine a fhaigheann oideachas trí mheán na Breatnaise a ardú ó 23% go dtí 40% faoi 2050. Is é sin chúlra mo cheiste. Ar lámh amháin, cuirim fáilte roimh an pholasaí. Is polasaí tábhachtach agus suntasach é agus tá sé de dhíth agus díospóireacht á déanamh maidir leis an Ghaeilge lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht inniu fosta. Tugaim aitheantas don Chathaoirleach, Eugene Ó Cruadhlaioch agus a chomhghleacaithe sa choiste seo as an díospóireacht is fearr ag labhairt faoin Ghaeilge agus oideachas taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht agus spreagadh na Gaeilge agus ag amharc go dtí an todhchaí.

Cuirfidh mé mo cheist anois. An ndéanfaidh an tAire cinnte de go mbeidh spriocanna intomhaiste sa pholasaí deireanach, go háirithe an sprioc a mhol Conradh na Gaeilge go mbeidh líon na ndaltaí atá ag freastal ar oideachas trí mheán na Gaeilge ardaithe go 20%? Ag dul ar ais go dtí 2015, bhí cruinniú le hoifigigh ó Roinn na Gaeltachta agus ón Roinn Oideachais. Bhí an Dr. Aodhán Mac Cormaic agus Harold Hislop ansin ag an am. Thosaigh siad polasaí maidir leis an tumoideachas sa Ghaeltacht. Tá an toradh le feiceáil in achan pháirt den Ghaeltacht ní hamháin sna scoileanna láidre a bhí ag múineadh trí Ghaeilge roimh an pholasaí sin, ach freisin sna scoileanna laga sna Gaeltachtaí atá anois ag bogadh ar aghaidh agus ag déanamh dul chun cinn. B'fhéidir go bhfuil comhrá ar siúl faoi thaighde a dhéanamh ar an dul chun cinn. Níl a fhios agam an focal Gaeilge fá choinne "anecdote", cé nár focal Béarla é, ach níl ach an rud anecdotal againn. B'fhéidir gur chóir taighde a dhéanamh anois ar na ceantair laga sa Ghaeltacht ag amharc ar an leanúnachas ón réamhscoil go dtí an bhunscoil go dtí an mheánscoil. Tá an rud atá le feiceáil iontach dearfach. Nuair atáim ag déanamh teagmháil leis na scoileanna sin agus leis na scoileanna i mo pharóiste féin, Duibhleann Riach ná na Dúnaibh, istigh sa Ghaeltacht, tá na daoine óga le feiceáil ag labhairt na Gaeilge sa rang, taobh amuigh den scoil agus nuair atá siad ag imirt peile nó ag súgradh sa chlós scoile nó taobh amuigh den scoil. Arís, níl aon roth úr de dhíth taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Caithfear amharc ar an pholasaí atá istigh sna ceantair Ghaeltachta. B'fhéidir gurbh é sin an tslat tomhais fá choinne an todhchaí.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Similarly to Deputy Ó Cuív, I wish Deputy McHugh well and I acknowledge his great work when in the chair I sit in and in this committee. I am nearly reluctant to go near Deputy O'Sullivan or the Chair for fear that they will make a similar announcement. Guím gach rath air.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I am open to persuasion if the Minister wants to try to change my mind.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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We referenced Wales earlier. I visited there and was interested and keen to see how it was progressing on its ambitious targets. It is a programme for Government target. I believe Conradh na Gaeilge's view is that we should go from 6% to 20%. The programme for Government proposed 6% to 12%. I have not seen the draft. I made this point earlier. As it stands, it is just a framework. I do not quite know what is going to be in it when it comes to me. I will have to adjudicate on that at the time. However, there is an absolute ambition to increase the numbers. There is absolutely no doubt about that. Determining how best to do that is the trick. That is why there has been so much engagement. More than 5,000 questionnaires have been completed and there have been bilateral meetings with 29 organisations. There have also been focus group engagements with both adults and children. It has been quite comprehensive. The overall objective, shared by everybody we have engaged with, is to ensure that there is an increase in the numbers and an increase in the strength of the language. There is agreement there. Deputy Ó Cuív referenced going from the naíonra the whole way up and everything else. It is for that reason that the two Departments are working together closely. That is an objective.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mar a deirtear as Béarla, "saved by the bell". Tá vóta ann so ní féidir liom mo cheisteanna ar fad a chur ar an Aire. Tá sraith mhór fhada de cheisteanna agam. Ó thaobh an choiste de, iarradh orm ceist a chur. Tá an t-ádh orm gur thug Seán Ó Catháin dom é i scríbhinn. Is ceist nár fhuair muid freagra air. Táimid ag brath ar an bhfreagra ón Roinn. Baineann sé leis na haonaid agus na sruthanna Gaeilge toisc go bhfuilimid ag triail an chuid sin den tuairisc a chur le chéile. Cuirfidh mé na cinn eile chuig an Aire i scríbhinn. Tá a lán dóibh deacair agus ní bheadh an tAire in ann iad a fhreagairt. Tá toghchán ann so beidh na ceisteanna céanna á gcur ar an Aire ó dhreamanna eile. Tá brón orm dóibh siúd a bhí ag súil le a lán ceisteanna uaimse. B'fhéidir go gcuirfidh mé iad amach anseo. Críochnóimid an cruinniú seo. Beidh cruinniú againn an tseachtain seo chugainn ar 1.30 p.m. ar an 2 Deireadh Fómhair. Beidh muid anseo i seomra coiste 4 chun tuarascáil bhliaintiúil 2023 an Chomisinéara Teanga agus ábhair gaolmhara a phlé leis an gcoimisinéir.