Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Munster and Ó Cathasaigh. I welcome the witnesses. I remind everyone to switch off their mobile phones or place them in silent mode. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything that they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such a direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness and is accompanied by Ms Irena Grzebieniak, deputy director at the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This morning we are going to engage with officials from the Department of Defence to examine the following matters: Appropriation accounts 2022, Vote 35 - Army pensions; Vote 36 - Defence; and report of the accounts of the public services 2022, Chapter 12 - stock management in the Defence Forces.

We are joined this morning by the following officials from the Department of Defence: Ms Jacqui McCrum, Secretary General; Ms Aileen Nolan, assistant secretary; Mr. David Geraghty, finance officer; Mr. Jarlath Loftus, principal officer; and Ms Helen Feeney, head of internal audit. We are also joined by Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. They are all very welcome.

I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The 2022 appropriation account for Vote 36 - defence records gross expenditure of €836 million. Appropriations-in-aid of the Vote amounted to €33.6 million. The surplus of the amount provided over the net amount applied in the year, which was liable for surrender back to the Exchequer, was €9.9 million.

The appropriation account is presented under a single programme related to defence policy and support, military capabilities and operational outputs. The expenditure subheads relate to the inputs purchased, unlike for other votes where the focus of subheads generally is on the costs associated with identified outputs. Salaries and allowances for Defence Forces personnel, including civilian support staff serving with the military, accounted for 60% of the expenditure. At the end of the year, around 8,800 full-time equivalent personnel were employed and remunerated from Vote 36, including around 8,000 Permanent Defence Force personnel. Expenditure of just under €279 million was incurred on equipment, supplies and other operational costs of the Defence Forces. Administration costs for the Department of just over €31 million were incurred in the year.

Expenditure related to the payment of pensions and gratuities to former members of the Defence Forces or to surviving dependants are accounted for separately from the Defence Vote, in the appropriation account for Vote 35 - Army pensions. The 2022 account recorded gross expenditure of €278 million. Appropriations in aid of the Vote amounted to €5 million. The surplus of the amount provided over the net amount applied in the year, which was liable for surrender back to the Exchequer was €1.7 million. At the end of the year, pensions were in payment to approximately 11,300 retired military personnel, and to 1,835 dependants and others. I issued clear audit opinions in respect of both appropriation accounts.

Chapter 12 of my report on the accounts of the public services for 2022 reviews the adequacy of the controls that the Department has in place to manage, value and correctly account for stocks of all kinds held by the Defence Forces. The chapter focuses in particular on the implementation of recommendations arising from a 2014 formal review of inventory management in the Defence Forces, generally referred to as the Dunning report.

At the end of 2022, most of the Department’s stock, valued at €254 million, related to military equipment items held by the Defence Forces in over 380 individual military store accounts in 23 locations across the country and overseas. The largest store account held €87 million worth of stock, while half of the stock value was accounted for in just four store accounts. More than 60 individual store accounts had a total value of less than €10,000 at the end of 2022.

Certain items of equipment used by the Defence Forces, such as weapons, are also held in stores for security and access control reasons. These are recorded and accounted for as fixed assets. Expendable items are held as stock. This differentiation increases the complexity of the stores' functions.

A stock management policy was adopted by the Defence Forces in 2015 in response to the Dunning report recommendations. The policy was planned to cover the period up to 2020 but continued in place until May 2023. Elements of the 2015 policy, including definition of minimum and maximum stock levels and the use of key performance indicators for stocks and stores, had not been implemented across the Defence Forces at the time of the examination. A new policy adopted in May 2023 sets timelines for the introduction of these measures. The examination also identified issues with the misclassification of stock and the disposal of obsolete stock items. Work on data cleansing and the correct classification of items stored by the Defence Forces has been under way for many years, and was still ongoing as of last September. The Dunning report had recommended that this work should be finalised urgently.

The Accounting Officer will be able to update the committee on the status of its ongoing work on stock management and in the implementation of recommendations arising from the chapter.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy and invite Ms McCrum to make her opening statement. She has five minutes.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the 2022 appropriation account for Vote 35 and 36 along with the chapter 12 report on stock management in the Defence Forces and Reserve Defence Force, RDF, matters. I hope my brief opening statement will provide some context to members on the main issues impacting on the Department of Defence in 2022.

For 2022, expenditure on the defence Vote, comprising both the Army pensions and defence Votes, was €1.1 billion. The high-level goal of both Votes is to provide for the military defence of the State, contribute to national and international peace and security, and fulfil all other roles assigned by Government.

The high-level goal of both Votes is "To provide for the military defence of the State, contribute to national and international peace and security and fulfil all other roles assigned by Government."

Turning first to the Defence Vote, overall gross expenditure on defence in 2022 amounted to €836 million, of which €516 million related to the pay and allowance costs of 8,003 Permanent Defence Force, PDF, personnel, 414 civilian employees attached to units of the Defence Forces and 381 civil servants working in the Department of Defence. Overall non-pay expenditure of €321 million encompassed both capability development and operational aspects and has current and capital elements. Non-pay current expenditure of €177 million provided mainly for essential and ongoing Defence Forces standing and operational costs on utilities, fuel, catering, maintenance, information technology and training. Capital expenditure of €144 million provided for ongoing defence equipment purchasing and renewal and the upgrading and refurbishment of military barracks and facilities across the country.

In terms of operational outputs, throughout 2022 the Defence Forces continued to provide essential support for An Garda Síochána, when requested, across various roles, such as explosive ordnance disposal call-outs, Garda air support missions and Naval Service diving operations. In addition, as part of their aid to the civil authority role, the Defence Forces provided ongoing support to local authorities and the Health Service Executive in their emergency response efforts, which was a task that assumed even greater importance in 2022 owing to pandemic exigencies.

As part of its overseas role, a total of 1,674 PDF personnel served overseas in 2022, with 538 personnel deployed overseas to 11 missions in 12 countries. This level of overseas deployment reflects Ireland’s ongoing commitment to international peace and security. These deployments are often undertaken in volatile security environments. Having been in Lebanon at the weekend with the Tánaiste, I can attest that the current environment there remains very challenging. This visit to Lebanon was to visit the troops who are currently on rotation there and to hold political meetings to stress the need to bring those responsible for the killing of the late Private Seán Rooney to justice. I again express my deepest sympathy to the family, friends and colleagues of the late Private Rooney who tragically lost his life while serving with the 121st Infantry Battalion in Lebanon in December 2022. I take this opportunity to acknowledge his colleagues who were injured, including Trooper Shane Kearney. I understand that, thankfully, Trooper Kearney is recovering well.

Civil Defence is also funded from the Defence Vote. Its hugely important community role, especially during the pandemic, was recognised with the presentation of specially commissioned Covid-19 medals to more than 1,500 Civil Defence volunteers at a ceremony in Croke Park in November 2022. A grant of €975,000 was provided from the Defence Vote to the Irish Red Cross Society in 2022.

The Reserve Defence Force, RDF, comprises of the Army Reserve, the Naval Service Reserve and the First Line Reserve. At the end of 2022, total RDF strength was 1,798 personnel and expenditure was €1.92 million. RDF volunteers come from all walks of life and the added value they provide to Ireland’s defence capabilities has been acknowledged extensively in the 2019 defence White Paper upgrade and more recently in the commission report. It is also fair to acknowledge that challenges exist. As outlined in the detail of the 2023 defence strategic framework document, however, an RDF regeneration plan is now under way, which, when implemented, will revitalise the RDF and augment PDF capabilities even further.

The Army Pensions Vote is demand-led and non-discretionary in nature. Expenditure of €278 million in 2022 provided for the payment of some 13,100 pensioners, including dependants. This is all managed from our Galway office. A Supplementary Estimate of €9.3 million was provided in 2022, largely to cover the costs arising from increases under the extension of the Building Momentum pay agreement. Expenditure on Army pensions has been increasing in recent years due to an increasing number of pensions, rising rates of pension and demographic factors.

The year 2022 was one in which the nation emerged from the worst stages of the global Covid-19 pandemic. In 2022, the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces was published with the Government approving a move to level of ambition 2, as set out in the commission report, with defence funding to be increased to €1.5 billion by 2028, at 2022 prices. This milestone development was a major achievement that initiated a period of significant transformation, which continues today. Other policy achievements included the establishment of the judge-led independent review group and the publication of the Department’s organisational capability review. The Defence Women’s Network was officially launched in 2022. It continues to thrive. The year 2022 also saw the beginning of the war in Ukraine, which has and continues to impact on our lives in many different ways, creating social, political and economic pressures in Ireland and across Europe.

I will turn now to the chapter 12 report on stock management in the Defence Forces. The Defence Forces maintain a substantial quantity and variety of stock valued at €255 million. This significant amount of stock is managed via a network of almost 400 stores accounts of varying size across multiple military locations throughout the country and abroad and is reported on by me annually through the appropriation accounts for the Defence Vote. It is important to state that the Department has strong governance structures in place to manage and maintain these stores. We are very conscious of our responsibility to continuously examine these systems and implement improvements, as necessary. I, therefore, welcome this report from the Comptroller and Auditor General and accept all the recommendations that have been made. I have put in place a working group, which has developed a work plan and which will oversee the implementation of the recommendations. Significant work on the recommendations has already been undertaken and implementation remains broadly on target.

As already stated, defence is going through a period of significant transformation, which is highly resource intensive. However, notwithstanding this and cognisant that defence, owing to its unique role, necessarily maintains significant stock volumes, effective stock management has always been, and will continue to be, an organisational priority. In that regard, the key departmental and Defence Forces stakeholders involved are wholly committed to ensuring that all the remaining report recommendations are fully implemented in the shortest timeframe possible.

In closing, I would like to thank the members of my management team, management group and all staff in my Department in our multiple locations for their commitment to public service and outstanding work ethic to deliver our objectives. I also extend thanks to the Chief of Staff and his teams in the Defence Forces for their support. I welcome any questions members may have.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McCrum. The first member to speak is Deputy Verona Murphy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I wish everybody a good morning. Ms McCrum is welcome. I do not believe I have had the opportunity to speak to her here before.

I want to start with the Dunning report of 2014. It seems that Mc McCrum is at odds, according to what the newspapers reported, with what the Comptroller and Auditor General has to say about group governance. Can she tell us when she established the working group?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I thank the Deputy. This is the first time I have been before the committee in respect of the Defence Vote.

The Dunning report was published in 2014. There would have been working groups that were established over the time. At the moment-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Ms McCrum said she established a working group.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, I did.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I established it in 2023. Its purpose is to look at the outstanding reports referred to in this particular report from the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How long has Ms McCrum been Secretary General of the Department?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Since September 2020.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The report had been in existence for six years at that point, so it took nine years to establish a working group.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There had, as I stated earlier, been other working groups established-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Clearly-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

-----but a final working group is now-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Was there a working group in existence when Ms McCrum entered the Department?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, there was.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did Ms McCrum disband that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We reviewed what had to be done. Of the six outstanding recommendations, three have been completed and we are dealing with the final three now. This new group that has been established is looking at the central government accounting standards and how we may profile the three remaining recommendations into those.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What was wrong with the previous working group that Mc McCrum had to establish a new working group?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

As always, we change the working groups depending on the actions that have to be done. We change the members and we change the focus.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The report did not change, however. The report is outstanding since 2014.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The Deputy is absolutely right. The report is outstanding since 2014. It is not good that these matters are still outstanding ten years later. Where we are-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Yet, Ms McCrum disagrees with the Comptroller and Auditor General and what he has to say on that matter.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I did not disagree at all. I have actually accepted all the reports and recommendations wholly.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Ms McCrum disagreed that there was a governance issue in general.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I am not sure that the Comptroller and Auditor General said there was a governance issue. I am open to challenge on that, however. What he did say was that there were reports that the recommendations were outstanding for ten years. That is not good. Where we are now is that we have three of them outstanding. There are particularly good reasons for why those three recommendations are outstanding. Two are almost completed and we have one that will remain outstanding.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What are the good reasons for them being outstanding.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The first one was recommendation No. 4, which was about reviewing existing inventory management structures and storage arrangements.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What is the problem with that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have an existing structure. As I said, there are approximately 380. We have various corps across all the locations. The Deputy will see that profiled in the report. The stock is held mainly in Dublin, Cork, Kildare or wherever.

They match into the structure of the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps and there is overseas. That is subject to change. The Commission on the Defence Forces said that structure should change and has to change. There is no point in changing the stores to match a structure that you are then going to change.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is that a recommendation that cannot be completed?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Correct. That will remain outstanding.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Will the witness move on?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Dunning recommendation No. 6 was to agree clear inventory management targets and outcomes. There is a new Defence Forces stock management policy in place to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred. It was introduced in 2023 and requires core directors to submit regular reports on the implementation of this policy. That is ongoing. I expect those reports to be in at the end of the year. Provided I am satisfied with those, that recommendation will then be closed.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What about the final one?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The final one is to clean up the codes and continue to rationalise them, to which the Comptroller and Auditor General also referred. A huge amount of work has gone on in this data cleansing project. New codes are coming in for the central government accounting standards. That will require us to examine whether the codes we have done up until now will morph into these central government accounting standards. We will do that as expeditiously as possible but it could take a period of time.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does any of the three left to implement require money and resources?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Not necessarily, no. As I said, the structures will be changed within the Commission on the Defence Forces. That will require money but changing these codes and realigning them into it will not require money.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Where would Ms McCrum say we are at regarding spend when it comes to recruitment in the Defence Forces?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have plenty of money to recruit and bring people in. We have a large budget allocated to advertising. It has gone up to €2.4 million this year. We are putting significant effort across the organisation into recruitment efforts. It is not a question of accessing money to do that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I would not think it is because, reading the report, 80% of employees are in the €20,000 to €60,000 pay scale bracket. Is it any wonder we are haemorrhaging people out of the Defence Forces? Has that been looked at? Has a retention mechanism been looked at? A total of €9.9 million, if I am correct, was given back in Vote 36. Where can the dots not be joined on retention over recruitment? It seems to be possible to recruit administrative staff, who are on a higher pay scale, with more success than front-line staff, which is what we require. We have six ships, two of which are manned with personnel and four - a quarter of a billion euro worth of capital - sitting at piers somewhere in Ireland. The Department's efforts regarding recruitment pale in comparison to spend. Retention issues are not being addressed at all. Are exit interviews done?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I can go back-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is a question. Are exit interviews done?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The Defence Forces do exit interviews now.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Since when?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I believe they were put in place in the past 12 to 18 months.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many staff have left the Defence Forces in the past two years?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I will get that figure for the Deputy. To go back to the salary issue-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No. I want to stick with this point because it is crucial.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

In 2022, we lost 891 staff and in 2023 it was 755.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Accumulated, that is a little over 20%. The current structure tells me that there are 7,752 members, with a recommended staffing level of 11,500. How in God's name does the Department expect to recruit approximately 4,000 staff when current staff cannot be retained? Ms McCrum is not a foolish woman - I would not think so, given the position she is in. The efforts regarding current staffing levels are not good enough. I hear it all the time from the staff, both those who have left and those who are still there. This is not going to be resolved. It is not good enough that taxpayers' money is tied up in ships we purchase and cannot staff. We purchased two ships from New Zealand at a cost of €26 million. I may stand corrected with some money here or there but it was €26 million - for what? I believe we have five helicopters - is that correct?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have more than that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many do we have?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There are different sizes. I will get them for the Deputy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If we have more than that, why was only one available when we needed to tackle a serious drugs issue on our waters? One was available which, I believe, had to be stripped down before it could go on the mission. It had no cover. One chopper was sent out, which made a very risky situation even riskier. How many helicopters are there?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Eight.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Where were the other seven? It is not a trick question.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

One helicopter was deployed at that time. I am not an operational person. There was one operational helicopter.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Ms McCrum is the Secretary General of the Department. I asked a simple question. It is not the first time it has been asked. Why was there no cover for the personnel who risked life and limb to go out and do that mission last year?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Four are training helicopters and the others may have been in service or otherwise. One was-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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They may have been in service.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There was a military decision to deploy that helicopter. They would have taken all risks into account.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I would say they had no choice if many of the others were dismantled for maintenance, which we no longer do because we cannot recruit the staff or retain the ones we have. Is that a fair assessment?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I do not think it is. Can I go back-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Ms McCrum does not think it is. How much do we spend outsourcing it?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Chair, can I go back to the beginning? The Deputy asked a number of questions. I would like to go back to the start.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I did not ask any questions. I asked where the seven helicopters were and Ms McCrum was not able to tell me. I asked how much we spend on outsourcing maintenance for those helicopters.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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One second, Deputy. The witness feels a question was asked that was not answered.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What was it?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Ms McCrum to answer that.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

At the beginning, the Deputy spoke about salaries and retention. I am happy to wait and come back to that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will come back to that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McCrum will have a chance to answer that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will come back to that. Will Ms McCrum answer the question on how much is spent on maintenance outsourcing?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We spend €18,600,000 on maintenance.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is outsourced.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is not all outsourced.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I asked about outsourced maintenance.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We do not have it broken down into outsourced and insourced but we can get that for the Deputy and send it to her.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is very important. Are we dependent on outsourced maintenance and that keeps our helicopters on the ground? Effectively, that runs the risk of life and limb of the personnel doing the job so badly required of controlling our waters from a drugs perspective. That particular incident yielded more than €6 million worth of drugs - it was actually €600 million, if I am not mistaken. The reality is something is very wrong as to why there is such an issue with retention within the Defence Forces. I do not believe there is an issue within the Department but within the Defence Forces front-line personnel. A level of 7,500 staff with recommendations for 11,500 is not good enough. I will come back to the pay scales. How can we expect an improvement if this seems to be, from what I hear, the real issue? Are our Defence Forces being exploited? Has Ms McCrum been in, cap in hand, to the Department to improve this situation?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, I have.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Recently? Every year at budget time?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Absolutely.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What has it yielded?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

If I can actually answer, I may be able to set the Deputy's mind at ease.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please do.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The salaries the Deputy is looking at are from 2022. Since then, the starting salary has changed from €29,000 to €39,000, a 34% increase. That is what a recruit starts at now. Significant changes have been made between the time of this report and where we are now.

That is on the basis that we do need to retain and attract people. We are seeing that. We had over 8,000 applicants last year to join the Defence Forces and we have a very healthy pipeline again this year. So we are turning the tide on that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please give us a breakdown of how many of the 8,000 applications transpired into work, jobs and employment.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I will. In respect of pay and benefits, we have doubled the Naval Service patrol allowances. In terms of retention, we have extended the mandatory retirement ages. We are putting a huge amount of effort into recruiting staff.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I understand that. Ms McCrum has not answered my question. I am running out of time so if I am being short, it is because I am under time pressure.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

What is the question, Deputy?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many of the 8,000 applicants were employed?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I will come back to that now. I will just get the final figure.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay. I have a final question. We withdrew our troops from Syria, did we not?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We did.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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On what basis?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

On the basis of military advice.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Military advice.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What was it?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We had been in that mission for just over ten years. As with everything, changes happen in your deployment policy. We were looking at going into the battlegroup for 2025 and beyond. The approach that was made to the Minister was to bring our troops back from UNDOF with a view to consolidating and being able to request that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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So it is not the case that it was a lack of personnel. That was not an issue.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It may have been a part of that issue as well.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Our reputation is being rubbished because of our recruitment and retention issues. I ask Ms McCrum, in the times in which we live, to address that as the Secretary General of the Department. There is no point in telling me that money is not the issue and you have huge resources, because that would mean there are other issues that are not being addressed. If it were a case of all things being equal, and there were perfect payscales, I am sure we would have more than 8,000 recruits. It will be interesting to see how many people left and how many were recruited in the same year. Please supply those figures before the end.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank our guests for being here today. I will continue the line of questioning started by Deputy Murphy. A number of her questions point to one of the structural issues in the way that funding and the accountability of funding is structured in the Defence Forces. Clearly, Ms McCrum is the Accounting Officer and we ask her questions when she comes before us. Many people in the Defence Forces believe that in the same way as Mr. Bernard Gloster is the Accounting Officer for the HSE, the Chief of Staff should be the Accounting Officer in respect of this committee and there should be stronger military leadership when it comes to budgetary matters, etc. A number of the questions asked by Deputy Murphy point to operational issues. There is certainly a feeling within the Defence Forces that there is a better case to be made for the Accounting Officer to be the Chief of Staff rather than the Secretary General of the Department. What is Ms McCrum's response?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We are unique in terms of being a Defence Forces. The control of the military by the civilian executive is a fundamental principle of modern western democracies. It allows for those policy and strategic decisions to be the remit of elected officers, subject to democratic control rather than the choice of military leaders. Having an Accounting Officer does not mean that there is not a delegated amount that is appropriate, which is the way we operate. For example, if you were to delegate the full budget to the military leaders, the fact is that it would not be appropriate. That is just not the way it works. So that is why the Accounting Officer is here. There have been various challenges over the years, including during my term, as to why the Chief of Staff is not the Accounting Officer. I have inquired from the current Chief of Staff as to whether he would like to be the Accounting Officer and I do not think there is an appetite there. There is a misnomer that if you are the Accounting Officer, you can just take out the chequebook and spend what you like. That is not the case. You have to do that in line with budgets and interact with your colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform area. That is a myth that needs to be busted.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I take the point. The separation of powers and responsibilities-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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-----is really fundamental and we should avoid mistakes made by other countries. However, there is a feeling that more opportunity or more support should be given to military leadership around decision-making processes. I refer to things like recruitment and retention, as mentioned by a previous Deputy, decisions on capital purchases and the allocation of resources for cybersecurity. Can more be done within the Department to give expression to that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

If I explain how we operate, that might give some comfort to the Deputy. In terms of the structures that we have in place, first of all recruitment is the responsibility of the Chief of Staff and his team. My team and I have no hand, act or part in that. We support our colleagues in the Defence Forces in terms of budgets for advertising or whatever they require. In fact, we have meetings on a regular basis on that whole issue. It is an issue for the whole organisation, but the responsibility lies with the Chief of Staff and we support from the side.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms McCrum accept that the Chief of Staff is in a difficult position? Other agencies of government - often to the detriment of Government policy or the Minister - advocate in public for their service or improvements in their service. They may make a public case against or to the Department. The Chief of Staff is not in that same position. The Chief of Staff is in a much more difficult position and his only mechanism to increase resources and make policy changes is through yourself.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The Defence Forces are apolitical - like civil servants, we are apolitical - so the Deputy is quite correct when he says they would not be out there advocating for change necessarily through those mediums.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have seen many civil servants advocating for change across the whole system. I am not saying they have to be party political. The military leadership - let us not make it personal to the Chief of Staff - are in a more difficult situation to advocate for their share of the cake compared with other national agencies. They are entirely dependent on the Department's senior management to make a case for them.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, and I think we have done that successfully, certainly during my tenure. As I say, the salaries have increased and we have actually got the highest investment in defence that has ever been given in this State.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That may be the case for the last number of years but for a significant period of time, we allowed recruitment to get to a point where it was a critical threat. I think everybody can accept that. Recruitment and retention dropped for lots of reasons and issues. My point is that many people in the Defence Forces argue that that would not have happened if those who are responsible for operational matters had more opportunity to make the case and were the ones making that case.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I cannot change the nature of the Defence Forces. The Defence Forces are apolitical so it is not going to change. Then we must have a system, and I think we now have a system. We have a joint senior management committee and we have internal structures in the form of the high-level planning and procurement group. All of those mechanisms are the areas where issues are raised and strategic plans are put in place. I think that works seamlessly well. In respect of the recruitment team, there is a new head of strategic HR. We are supporting him as best we can with whatever budgets he needs, and in terms of bandwidth and strategic support. That is actually having an effect. We are turning the tide. The retention mechanisms have changed as well.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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There is a greater responsibility on Ms McCrum, as Secretary General, and on her team in the Department to ensure that the demands, wishes and expressions of the operational side are expressed than on their counterparts in any other Department. In any other Department, it would be more appropriate for me to have a direct conversation with the line operator. It would be more appropriate for me, on a regular basis, to have members of staff in that organisation come to my clinic and talk about the issues. Ms McCrum knows that does not happen for the Defence Forces for very obvious reasons. It is a disciplined force in a different way from the Garda or any other organisation.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am reminding the Secretary General that there is an additional responsibility on her in this area. I believe some of the issues, particularly around recruitment, have arisen in recent years - not during Ms McCrum's tenure - because, at a senior level in the Department, the case was not made earlier. The same point can be made in respect of pay issues. Simple changes were made by this Government over the last three years. I think the failure of previous governments to take such action and thereby avert some of the recruitment issues was a missed opportunity.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

If I can just finish, I accept that responsibility. Absolutely, it is a different construct from other Departments and other areas. I accept that responsibility wholeheartedly and so does my team. We have a very good working relationship. Part of what I wanted to do during my term was put in place a framework where it did not matter who the personalities were, whether they were the Chief of Staff or the Accounting Officer, so that the framework would work and this would provide us with the way to work into the future. It is working exceptionally well. We have had significant changes in the last few years, which the Deputy has acknowledged, and I hope they will continue. We see small green shoots at the moment and hopefully we can platform for the future.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Let me move on to the independent review group's report on the Defence Forces. I suppose in its politest form it showed that there was a kind of tough-man approach within the organisation and that this strong or macho kind of culture was too prevalent. Ms McCrum might have a different view but that was the view in general terms. I would like for a moment to consider families and people with a child who has a disability. We deal with this issue all the time. It must be incredibly difficult for a family who has a child with a disability when a family member in the Defence Forces is asked to serve abroad given the additional pressures this places on the family and the individual in question. Is there a specific policy with regard to members of the Defence Forces and their family responsibilities in general, one that is cognisant of issues of disability?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

One of the challenges I had when I came into the organisation was that I felt the structure and the way it operated was very old fashioned. I would describe it as being back in the 1980s. We needed to modernise our structures and how we operated. The Defence Forces have introduced family-friendly initiatives. I cannot speak specifically to the issue the Deputy raised and-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to tours of duty abroad, for example.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

In terms of going abroad, we do have family-friendly policies now. I was abroad just last weekend where I met two personnel who are on three-month deployments. They can go out for three months. In terms of progress and moving on and up in the Defence Forces, going abroad is one of those things people have to do. It is one of those necessary issues that needs to be addressed. It would be extremely challenging with somebody who has a disability. I know that some account is taken of this but I cannot say exactly what the policy would be towards it. Certainly if somebody applied for it, I would hope they would be given allowance to do a three-month deployment.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Many feel that not enough cognisance is given to that. That was not a specific term used by the independent review group. Based on representations from members of families who have spoken to me about it, this is an issue. They feel powerless and do not feel supported. They feel in many ways they are also subjected to an approach whereby they should get on with it, pull up their bootstraps and just deal with it because this is what is done. I accept that the Defence Forces are a disciplined force and this poses a challenge but there are issues there around compassion and having a humane approach. It is also about retaining staff.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is. The Deputy is absolutely right on that front. This is moving at a very rapid pace and we are changing the tempo of the organisation. The Deputy is absolutely right that it is a disciplined force, so if someone is told to do X, they do X and that is it. I hope that with these new family-friendly initiatives, there is support for people like that. We provide other supports such as social workers and we have the personal support services which can help families. The social workers work within the brigades and are a very valuable resource for people who have difficulties in their family circumstances. Regrettably, I cannot say to the Deputy that somebody who has a child with a disability will never be asked to go abroad. That is probably unlikely but I hope a compassionate view would be taken.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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We await the implementation of those family-friendly policies and will judge the Department on it.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

They are in place at the moment and are working successfully.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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We will be the judge of that when we have the time to do so. I thank Ms McCrum.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The witnesses are very welcome. It seems to me that the discipline goes in one direction. Why was the Chief of Staff not told to be the Accounting Officer? There appears to me to be a bit of Teflon here.

I will continue with the previous line of questioning. As regards discipline, the fact hat people were completely silenced led to a point where there was a crisis in recruitment. People were walking away. There was even a court case that had to be taken by the president of PDFORRA. I would like to know how much that court case cost. That Defence Forces members were silenced in the context of speaking out about their pay and conditions was found to be unconstitutional. There is a very significant and dangerous gap here. We can see it also in relation to the Women of Honour and the way in which people who were retired were subjected to pretty significant abuse. That, too, will have impacted on the recruitment of women into the Defence Forces. There would be very direct accountability in having the Chief of Staff become the Accounting Officer and it strikes me as something that would be absolutely appropriate. Why was the Chief of Staff not required to be the Accounting Officer? Why was he asked rather than told he was to be the Accounting Officer?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The way it is set up at the moment is that I am the Accounting Officer for the whole Vote.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I know that.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That is a construct at the moment. The Chief of Staff does take responsibility and he regards accountability very strongly. I can assure the Deputy of that. Is the Deputy talking about accountability from the perspective of the finance piece or the management of people or-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The thing is it blends because, for example, the person would understand the issues with recruitment and be held to account here. It costs a lot of money to train recruits. I have a case of one young recruit in Kildare who is not currently serving. When he joined up he was told he would get a place in a unit in the Curragh Camp. He was sent off to Galway where he was trained and then he was told his return to the Curragh Camp had been revoked. He then applied for a discharge, which he got because it became untenable for him. How do the Defence Forces hold on to people? It is not just about pay and conditions; it is also about living conditions. Somebody has to be directly accountable. We leave our colours at the door here in terms of politics when people come into the Committee of Public Accounts but then we have somebody who is directly accountable for that kind of waste of public money. There is a bit of Teflon going on here in terms of the separation of the two. While Ms McCrum is the person who is the Accounting Officer, should she be the Accounting Officer in relation to this?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There are probably a couple of things I can say. Under the construct of our legislation at the moment, the Chief of Staff is directly responsible to the Minister for discipline and the delivery of his responsibilities. I am the Accounting Officer in legislation. Under the Commission on the Defence Forces, we are looking at the whole command and control area, which is called C2. That is looking at how we are constructed, which probably plays a part in what the Deputy is talking about as regards where the accountability lies and why the person cannot come in front of the committee to be questioned on it. We are looking at command and control. That is an issue that will come to the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence in the coming months, with a view to reviewing whether this is appropriate going forward.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How much did it cost to defend the case where a PDFORRA member went to the High Court?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

This was the case taken by Martin Bright. I am not sure that we have the final costs on that but we will get to the committee on that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will Ms McCrum give us a ballpark figure?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Does anybody have any idea? No.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many days was it in the High Court?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I am sorry. I cannot give a figure. I will have to get back to the Deputy on that. It is probably that the final bills are not in there. The judgement was only in the last ten days. That is the problem. We would not have had that figure but we will come back to the Deputy.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We know the head count of the Permanent Defence Force is 8,003. That is what we have been told today. What should it be?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is not 8,003.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am reading from the opening statement.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That was in 2022, sorry. It is 7,700, I think.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So it is less than-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It has been reducing. That is correct.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What should it be?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Under the Commission on the Defence Forces, we should be at 9,500. The Commission on the Defence Forces profiled that we would be at 11,500 by 2028. We are significantly below that strength and that is why-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is going backwards.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

At the moment we are still on a minus.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the gender profile? Are we losing the potential recruiting of women because of the reputational damage relating to the abuse that women suffered in the Defence Forces?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I think we are still at 7%, which is not unusual for international militaries. The best profile of male-female is 20%, which would have been in Australia. It took them 20 years to get to there-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We have a particular challenge because from the cohort of women who have come out we have learned of very high-profile, very abusive behaviour. Who would put themselves in that position if they were not certain that the culture has changed?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Significant work has been undertaken by the Defence Forces in this area. A sexual ethics and responsible relationships, SERR, training course has been given to almost 3,000 people so far by Professor Louise Crowley from UCC. That will continue so that everyone will have undergone that mandatory training. It takes time to change a culture. The Chief of Staff is fully committed to this, as is the management board.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This abuse happened under the watch of the senior command. The loss of personnel – we are still losing personnel in the Army – happened under the command structure we still have. There is, or at least there was, a problem in that people feel they cannot bring things to the attention of the senior command.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There was, yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How satisfied is Ms McCrum that there is not still a problem?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I cannot say the problem is gone completely but I can say that significant efforts are going into making that problem go away and to ensure that it is a safe place. There is a commitment from the top and right through the management structure to ensure that. The Tánaiste has very much said that he want this to be somewhere that people can work in a safe environment.

On female recruits, despite all the challenges and issues, we are still seeing a number of female recruits. We had 9% intake of female recruits in 2023.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I hope they will have a good experience.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There have been a number of recent articles on Department spending. There was €500,000 a year for training 12 pilots to fly the 30-year old Learjet. What are the current plans for the Learjet? How much has been spent in training this year?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The Learjet is at the end of its life, or almost at the end of its life. There is a plan under way to replace it. A new jet will be purchased and planning for that is in place at the moment.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When do we expect that to happen?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I am not sure that we have an exact date for that but it is-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is not imminent, as far as I can recall.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We will be going to tender this year. These things, unfortunately, take quite some time-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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No, I understand that.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have a jet that is there at the moment. We need to maintain it. We need to maintain the pilots and their capabilities there. They need to keep their hours up, as every pilot needs to do. That work will continue until such time as we get a new jet in place.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there a contract in place for the training?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We spent €2.3 million on the specialised training in 2022.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How long is the contract for?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The specialist training?

Mr. David Geraghty:

It is across aircraft types. There would be various contracts. I am not aware where the contract is at with the Learjet one.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It does not go beyond-----

Mr. David Geraghty:

No. It should not do.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----the time when the new jet will be acquired, however.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No. That will be all joined up.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to ask some questions about the Air Corps. I have raised this on a number of occasions, including with the State Claims Agency when it appeared before the committee. There have been a number of claims with the State Claims Agency relating to the No. 4 hangar, the workshops, where chemicals were used and people are claiming damage. I know some of the individuals who are suffering very serious health consequences. In fact, it is quite shocking to see the number of people who have died prematurely from a range of different health reasons who worked in that workplace and in that workshop. We received a response last November telling us there was to be an inspection in the Air Corps. We asked to be updated on that. We have not had anything further, other than being told that there was to be an inspection. Is the Department following that? Is it informed by the State Claims Agency about that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

On that particular claim, the State Claims Agency is currently managing ten claims taken by former and current members of the Air Corps for personal injuries alleging exposure to chemical and toxic substances. I have a litigation team that would be in touch with that agency as required. We continue to be updated on that, as does the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence. He wants to be kept constantly updated on this. However, I cannot comment further on that because it is before the courts. What I will say-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am not asking Ms McCrum to comment on something that-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No, but it is a definite watching brief that we are keeping a very close eye on.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Department is keeping a watching brief on the court case but is it keeping a watching brief on Casement Aerodrome-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----and making sure that it is a safe place to work?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Absolutely. The Health and Safety Authority has a role here. It visits installations on an annual basis. In fact, it has just completed one recently in a number of locations. I received details from the Defence Forces to say that report had been completed and that it was only in last week. It does raise a couple of issues - all these audits raise issues – and they will be addressed, profiled out and managed appropriately.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On injuries, the State Claims Agency frequently appears before the committee. We look at the range of different areas. Obviously, in the Defence Forces people are doing dangerous work.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You try to minimise injuries, and worse. What is the profile at the moment in terms of injuries? Is the rate increasing? What is the Department doing to mitigate that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

When an issue occurs, particularly if there is a litigation issue, there is a lessons learned which applies after that. It looks at what happened, why it happened and what can be done to mitigate that risk. I think that is what the Deputy is asking me. A lessons-learned profile is constructed by-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When the committee has the State Claims Agency in, it tells us there are things like slips and falls. People in the Defence Forces use weapons, ammunition and so on.

What are the categories that the Department is seeing and are they increasing or decreasing?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Is that in terms of the claims? I will get them for the Deputy. As far as I remember from reading my notes, there were about 500 cases. There were 495 cases on hand in December 2022. That is a rolling number. In terms of the breakdown regarding whether they were slips and trips or other ones, I am not sure I have them to hand but I will come back to the Deputy and let her know for sure what they are.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will return to the numbers. It was mentioned that there were 8,000 applicants in 2023. How many of those were successfully recruited? Is Ms McCrum talking about the Defence Forces overall? Is she talking about the Air Corps, the Naval Service and the Army? Were the 8,000 recruits for the three branches of the Defence Forces? How many of those were recruited to the Defence Forces?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The figure in 2023 was 415.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So 415 were recruited. Ms McCrum mentioned that somebody joining as a private earns €39,000 in the first year.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is nobody below that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There should not be. What I was going to say was that this is €39,000 after he or she has done his or her basic training.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How long does that take?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That takes 24 weeks.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So once he or she has done his or her basic training, he or she is on €39,000.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes. That is a starting recruit without a particular educational qualification.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Commission on the future of the Defence Forces spoke about meeting a figure of 11,500. This is 11,500 across the three branches.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the Army's strength? What should the Army's strength be?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I do not have the breakdown of the 11,500. That has not been determined.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the overall figure for the three branches of the Defence Forces at the moment? Is it 7,500 roughly?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is 7,500. We are going to look at a civilianisation strategy as well so those 11,500 may not be full uniformed personnel. It could be a combination of civilians and Defence Force personnel.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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At the moment.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No - into the future. One of the big exercises we need to do is look and see-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It will not finish up like the HSE with a whole pile of managers and administrative people and no foot soldiers on the front line.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No. We would hope not. When we get the applicants in, they go through a series of checks and balances involving security, medical and psychometric tests - all of those various checks and balances - until we get to somebody actually walking in the door. During the past six months, we have been streamlining a lot of those processes. We have made changes to our psychometric test. We are looking at the fitness test. Many of these have been scrutinised in the past six months to enable better recovery or to recoup far more from the process.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What about the ages for recruitment?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is 18. We have extended them-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the upper limit?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have just extended it to 39.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What age was that extended from?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There were different ages depending on different things but it was around the 27 to 28 mark. That is another attempt at trying to recruit people who have gone off and done different things and then want to come back.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many are in training now?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The 415 we had in 2023 would be in training. I know that 200 have been taken on in the first quarter of this year. The objective is to get 740 into training by the end of this year.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The number of those who exited in the two years mentioned by Ms McCrum was 1,800. It was nearly 2,000 in two years. This is massive.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is. Our attrition rate is 10% to 11%, which is probably standard-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that retirements?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It could be retirements.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does it include retirements?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Including retirements. People can leave at different times. With the Defence Forces, they get a fast accrual pension so they can leave at a much earlier age than people in different parts of the corporate world. Recently the Tánaiste extended the retirement age to 60 so they retain the fast accrual up to the age of 60. This has been very much welcomed by the representative associations and personnel because they now see that their careers can be longer. Hopefully, we will see some change in exits over the coming months.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the situation regarding 20-year full service in terms of pension entitlements? Will members be able to go beyond that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

They will be able to go to 60. Everybody can go up to 60.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So in theory, members could serve 25 or 30 years.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does that apply to ordinary privates?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes. That is for everybody. The other thing we are looking at is extending it to 62 but we need legislation to do that. We could do 60 immediately, which we did in March.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The fire service has done it and the Prison Service wants to do it.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

And An Garda Síochána is going to do it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Pay and conditions constitute the one issue we get lobbied about by rank-and-file soldiers. What is the single biggest issue the Department has done in conjunction with the military authorities in the past two years to improve recruitment and retention? What are the three biggest things it has done?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There are a lot of technical issues in terms of changing those salaries but in year-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Salaries-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Salaries constitute one thing and that has been acknowledged as being substantial. That does not mean that it is perfect. There are other things we need to look at in the middle of a career. We have extended private healthcare to all enlisted ranks, which would be the majority of personnel. There is no benefit-in-kind on that. It also offers private maternity care to females should they wish for that. That is a significant benefit that has been extended. We have changed recruitment and mandatory retirement ages. In terms of the Naval Service, the Tánaiste doubled the daily patrol duty allowance. This has come into effect. Once personnel were out after ten days at sea, that increased from €59 to €131 per day. In terms of infrastructure, we have upgraded the accommodation blocks and there is a profile of that under our infrastructure plan. The gyms have been upgraded as well because being fit is part and parcel of being in the Defence Forces.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can I ask about housing? It used to be the case that there was accommodation on site. I know a lot of it needs renovation. How many units of accommodation are there in, for example, the Curragh?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I will get that figure for the Cathaoirleach. The accommodation we provide is single-living accommodation units. We are trying to move to a single bedroom-type accommodation model rather than families. There is no policy about providing family accommodation.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many single units is the Department providing?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There are 78 vacant properties in the Curragh but they are completely dilapidated. They were the old family-type ones. They are not in a fit state to be habitable. We invited a consultant in to see what would be appropriate to do with them because they are very small in terms of rooms. It is a question of whether we demolish and restart or refurbish. That report on those properties is due soon.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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People retiring at middle age or beyond may have medical issues. What is the update regarding medical cover for retired personnel? Is there anything happening there?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We do not provide medical cover for retired personnel. There are very active veterans' organisations such as the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel, which provides a lot of support. The Department would allocate funding to veterans' organisations but the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel is the one that provides a lot of those services to retired people and people who may fall on hard times.

It provides it through accommodation and it has a link with a mental health provider to support them on that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is no plan to provide it for retired personnel.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

People can retire at different ages and can retire at a very young age. We do not have a retired cohort like there would be for organisations where people retire at 66.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McCrum said there are eight helicopters.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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One was involved in the mission involving the multimillion euro drugs find off the coast. These are military decisions, as Ms McCrum rightly said. She said there are eight choppers. Was the chopper used in that case a military chopper?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, it was.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was military grade.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many of those choppers are in use at any given time? Was it one of those eight that was used?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We would have one of four helicopters on air ambulance duty and that is a service we provide in conjunction with the HSE, and there would probably be a backup for that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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These are military-type helicopters.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

They are all military grade. All of those are retained at Casement.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was one of those four used on the day?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No, it was not an air ambulance one. It was one of our helicopters.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was it one of the four air ambulances? Ms Nolan seems to be confirming that. It was one of the four air ambulances that was used.

Ms Aileen Nolan:

Of the four helicopters, at any one time, one of those four would be used for the air ambulance.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So one of those four was designated as an air ambulance. One of those was used to lower the personnel onto the vessel for the drugs find.

Ms Aileen Nolan:

It probably would have been reconfigured to do the job that was done on the day.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It would not have been reconfigured that day. They would not have had time to do it.

Ms Aileen Nolan:

They can be reconfigured very quickly.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They would not have had time to do it in an emergency situation like that.

I will turn to the issue of the number of people leaving. One of the issues that comes up time and again is the EU working time directive, with which Ms McCrum will be familiar. Are the Defence Forces keeping a record of the hours worked by soldiers and other personnel?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Military management would say that almost 80% of the activities are within the working time directive, and that is what the Tánaiste has been advised. However, there is a commitment to bring in the working time directive in full within the Defence Forces. A position has now been agreed between military management and the Department. That has gone forward to the Tánaiste and he has agreed that. We are now engaged with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in terms of getting that legislation moved forward. It has taken us some time to get to this position but we are now ready and we have had very constructive discussions with the representative associations in this area. We have also commenced work in this regard. One of the things we need to do is to put in a time and attendance system, similar to other organisations. We are in the process of purchasing a long-term electronic solution to that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to deal with a number of other topics. How much does it cost to provide private healthcare for all of the personnel?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

This is our first year for it. We have not purchased a scheme as such. If you or I were getting private healthcare, we would get it for, say, €1,000 per person or maybe slightly more than that. In our case, people go through a scheme and that bill is charged up. We have put in a figure of €5 million to facilitate that extension but we will not know what the outturn is until we see it at the end of the first year in question.

Mr. David Geraghty:

We added €5 million to the budget for 2023 and we added a further €1.6 million this year, so €6.6 million is the costing of the extension of that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want the personnel to be looked after but it speaks volumes about our public service that the Department has to go and buy private health insurance for Army personnel. I would just make that point.

When the Garda Commissioner comes in here, or when we put down parliamentary questions to the Minister for Justice, we are told that the Garda Commissioner is the one who deploys the resources as appropriate, and all the rest of it. Who makes the procurement decisions in relation to the Army? Is it the Department? Is there a bureaucratic arrangement around that? Is it the Chief of Staff? Who makes the decision in terms of the available resources and what is most needed?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have two significant plans in place. One is the equipment development plan and the other is the infrastructure plan, and they would be the biggest expenditures. A strategic view is taken. That is a joint civil-military view. It is very much a joint civil-military view that is taken as to how to profile that out and where projects should sit within that. That is then worked through a governance structure, which is the high-level planning and procurement group, HLPPG. That is chaired on a rotation basis between both military and-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am not at all clear about who makes the decision.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The decisions would be made through that group. I am the Accounting Officer and I have to sign it off but it would be done jointly between myself and the Chief of Staff. I am not there making all of the decisions.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There would be a benefit to the Chief of Staff being the Accounting Officer because there would be a more direct arrangement in terms of the spending of those resources. I am not saying this should not go through the proper procurement process but it looks like there are two layers whereas with the Garda Commissioner, there is one layer.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have a capability development unit and any projects that are forecast for the future would be undertaken through that. That is also a civil-military unit. It would forecast out and look at what where we need to go, depending on what our strategic intent is, and that would be profiling it out.

It comes back to the construct of what the Defence Forces are. The Defence Forces are subject to executive control so they cannot, in any democracy, be responsible for all of the financing. That is just not a practical solution.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Nor am I saying that is the case. However, being an Accounting Officer is a different thing.

On another issue, who funds ONE?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

ONE receives funding from the Department on an annual basis and the balance of its funding is made up from charitable donations.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How much does it get from the Department?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It was €130,000 and it also got money from dormant accounts funding.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There are approximately 11,000 retired Army personnel and I accept there are different age profiles and so on. However, in some cases, they would be people who had direct combat experience and who would be compromised because of that and have to be taken care of. ONE gets €130,000 and is subject to whatever it gets from charitable donations to look after retired personnel.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

And also dormant accounts funding.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Do we know how much it gets from that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Over the years, it was €900,000. I will check what the figure is per annum. We have upped that funding over the years and we work very closely with ONE in terms of what its asks are.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that being looked at?

People look at risk in terms of where they are going to work and how they will be looked at afterwards if something happens. Is that looked at in the totality of when people are being recruited and the attractiveness of people being recruited into the Defence Forces?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I think the fast accrual pension is an attraction, and the fact that you could acquire that and move on. There is a challenge around it because it is a challenging job and there is the potential for issues that could arise during that time. There is no doubt about that. That is where the disability pensions and various others come in. The disability pension is also paid out of Galway. You cannot tell somebody coming in that everything will be fine at the end.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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No.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

In lots of other uniform services it is probably the same.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I know people would understand there is a risk with the job. Why was there such an increase in overtime payments in 2022 versus 2021?

Mr. David Geraghty:

Overtime is paid to two classes of person.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Permanent Defence Forces.

Mr. David Geraghty:

They are not paid overtime. The overtime referred to in the appropriation account relates to our civil servants and civilian employees.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Why was it increased?

Mr. David Geraghty:

For our own civil servants, it increased to pay the arrears of pay and pensions from the extension of the Building Momentum national pay agreement, which came in the last quarter of the year. For our civilian employees it arose because the Covid lockdown finished, and we had to ramp up the service again.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

They were back into normal working practices.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It required overtime just to get things back.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I turn to the number of ships. We have four offshore patrol vessels and two large patrol vessels. There have been news articles about some of the vessels being tied up because they cannot be used due to personnel shortages. Is there risk analysis in respect of having to cancel or curtail deployments?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The situation in the Naval Service is acute in that there has been a significant drop in personnel. We all agree with that. Significant effort is going into trying to arrest and stop that, and to change that. We have seen some green shoots and positive output for the first three months of this year, where we have more coming in than leaving, which is positive.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will Ms McCrum give us some numbers? What is the current strength?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Is that the current staffing in the Naval Service?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have 722.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What should it be?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Establishment is 1094. It should be 1094. We have 66% of the establishment.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does that mean 66% capacity in deploying ships?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There is also a challenge with technicians. We have had a problem retaining those within the technical areas. We have changed the age at which people can commence. Where we went to age 39 for people who can join in general, technical people can join up to age 50. That extends to people who may have had a career elsewhere and who want to come to join. They can do that now.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is the technical personnel rather than overall number that is restricting the ships.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

To deploy a ship at any point in time, all the various areas need to be covered. There has been a challenge with the technical staff.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will dig into the technical side. How many technical people are there, and how many should there be?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I do not have that broken down, but I will get it for the Deputy. I am not trying to be difficult, but there is a list of names where artificers and all sorts of engineers and other things are broken down. I would have to go to get that detail.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can we have a decent note on that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, we will get that for sure. However, there are some positives and small green shoots in naval recruitment. I hope we are turning the tide, if the Deputy will excuse the pun. We have also changed the way we operate. That has been changed in the base in Hawlbowline, County Cork. There have been no patrol days cancelled since they changed that operational posture in August 2023. That is also positive news. We have two new inshore patrol vessels, to which the other Deputy referred - the LÉ Aoibhinn and LÉ Gobnait. One of them is commencing work now. They will be positive. They only require 25 people. You do not have to stay out on them for weeks. They are more family friendly. We are changing the way we operate, and I hope that will have a positive effect as we move forward.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will come back to the issue with the helicopters. It was said there are four operational at any given time. Is that correct?

Ms Aileen Nolan:

There are four helicopters. One of them is operational on air support at all times. The others could be in scheduled or unscheduled maintenance. Serviceability levels-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On that particular day, how many were in maintenance and how many were operational?

Ms Aileen Nolan:

As I understand it, only one was operational.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There was only one out of the eight. Would that be fairly normal?

Ms Aileen Nolan:

It was one of the four. There are four training helicopters as well. The helicopters we have are old and reaching end of life. One of the commission recommendations is that we look to replace the helicopter fleet. As they get older, they require more maintenance, and there is scheduled and unscheduled maintenance.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to get a picture of what is going on. How many of the eight would be fit to be operational or would be operational on any given day?

Ms Aileen Nolan:

I can get the statistics on that. We have serviceability statistics, which I can come back with.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would half of them be out of service? That is all I am trying to figure out.

Ms Aileen Nolan:

That could-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

They put them on a rotational, operational servicing mechanism. We have a commitment to look at these super-medium helicopters and there is a large budget to be expended on that. We are looking-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that to purchase or lease?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

To purchase. We have also put in a new procurement policy with a view to expediting a lot of this. We will look at government-to-government procurement.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I want to clarify the medical cover before we go to the break. Is Ms McCrum saying that medical cover is rolled out to all enlisted personnel?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

To everybody.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are now back in public session. I want to refer back to the Naval Service for a moment and the question on the number of ships. My understanding is that there are eight. Is that correct, if we count the two new ones from New Zealand that were bought for €26 million? Are they second-hand or new?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

They are second-hand.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are the two of them in use?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

They arrived last year and some further work needed to be done on them, particularly on the communications side. One of them is now becoming operational. People have been training on that for the last month or six weeks. One of them was profiled in the media as being out on the water in a work capacity from last week or this week.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There are eight in total. Is that correct?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many are not capable of deep sea operations, in terms of being out in the Atlantic?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is only the two. They are inshore patrol vessels and I will just get the details of how far they can go but they would generally not be the ones that would go further out. It is the balance of the fleet, the rest of them, that would go out further.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Out of the other six, how many are operational?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There are three ships in total that are on what is called operational posture. Two of them are out and another one is on standby at any point in time. That is the current posture that I said had been in place since last year.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Those three are capable of operating on the high seas. Is that correct?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are the other three ships capable of operating on the high seas?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

They would be, yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are they held up due to mechanical problems?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No, it is due to staffing issues at the moment.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Staffing is the issue.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes. We need to increase the numbers in the base in order to be able to put those to sea.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Staffing is the issue.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

One of them is going through a mid-life refit at the moment so that would not be capable. If we had all of the staff we needed tomorrow, that would not be going out. That is a constant maintenance that would be undertaken.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the current fleet sufficient to meet our defence requirements?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The fleet is certainly part of that. We have the fisheries centre which has 24-hour monitoring. That is based in Haulbowline. We have the Air Corps as well. The C295 maritime planes would facilitate in that oversight as well.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Department state that what we have at sea, or capable of going to sea, is sufficient for maritime defences?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I would prefer that we would have the facility to use all our vessels. Currently we cannot but we are sufficiently happy that we have oversight using all the mechanisms that we have.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is Ms McCrum saying to us this morning? Her answer could be interpreted in two or possibly three ways. Do we have, at this point in time, this week, sufficient equipment and vessels to protect our maritime areas and our territorial waters?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The primary role of our Naval Service is in relation to fisheries policy and we are meeting all of our targets-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a bit more to it than that. It is more than fisheries now.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No, but we are meeting all our targets. In terms of security, the service is doing its maritime surveillance and fisheries patrols in the exclusive economic zone. As I said, the area is monitored remotely as well. For the moment I cannot give a guarantee that it is 100% secure but we are certainly meeting our targets, in terms of what have been set.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the maintenance, there were reports that there was a €13 million bill for the maintenance of naval ships earlier this year. Is that correct? There are references to €13 million as the cost for outsourcing maintenance for navy ships. That was reported by a defence correspondent, Mr. Sean O'Riordan, in The Examiner.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have entered into a new five-year contract with Wärtsilä UK Limited. That is for engine maintenance services. Is that what the Chairman is referring to?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a contract with a Finnish company?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, but I do not know where the figure of €13 million came from. It is approximately €1 million per annum.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There was a report of €15 million.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is for five years, but even so-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is Ms McCrum saying-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is €1 million per annum and it is a five-year contract.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It appears that there are a number of contracts because this report said that €13 million was being paid to a Finnish company over five years. This seems to be in tandem with the other contract that Ms McCrum is talking about.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I will have to look at that media report and check.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was published on 22 March in The Examiner. Is it the case that Ms McCrum is not able to confirm today how much the Finnish company is getting for those maintenance contracts?

Mr. David Geraghty:

It is roughly €1 million per year for the Wärtsilä contract.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is a five-year contract so that would only be €5 million. The Chairman is saying that the report is saying-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is why I am asking. Is the report correct?

Mr. David Geraghty:

There would be other outsourced contracts.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is what I am trying to get at. There seems to be a number of contracts for the naval fleet.

Mr. David Geraghty:

Yes, there are. There is a budget line for maintenance of vessels that costs €6 million to €7 million per year. So the report may be referring to a number of different contracts. I do not know which ones it might be referring to.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Am I correct in saying there was a period a few months ago when there was only one ship capable of being out on high seas patrol?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That is correct.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would the Department be very concerned about that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, both the Department and the Defence Forces were very concerned about that. That is why every effort has been made to upgrade the base to make it more attractive for people to join. We also doubled the naval patrol duty allowances. I would make the comment that international navies are suffering the same issue. It is not a particularly attractive position that everybody wants to do so what we are trying to do is to make it attractive. We are looking at ways to make it more family-friendly and at using different patrol vessels, which will be more attractive as well. We are also looking at accommodation, gym facilities and all of those things that make a workplace attractive.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many were recruited last year into the Naval Service?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We took 68 into the Naval Service.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many went out?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

A total of 95 went out. What I would say, in terms of the first quarter up to 31 March, is that we have taken 31 in and have only lost 14. That is a 51% spread there, which is very positive.

If we can continue with that, they are green shoots we are looking at.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does that include technical?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It would include technical. Last year, of the 68 we took in, there were 57 general service, five cadets, one direct-entry electrical officer, three direct-entry other ranks – namely, engine room, artificer or electrical artificer - one recommissioned officer and one re-enlisted personnel.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For the benefit of the committee, what was the figure for the first quarter of this year?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The figure for that is 31, comprising 29 general service and two direct entry, namely, a chef and an electrical artificer.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I believe there is a problem with recruiting chefs. Thirty-one people came in and 14 went out. Is that correct?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, in the first quarter, so that is positive.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms McCrum for clarifying that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would be grateful to Ms McCrum if she gave the figures relating to the 8,000 applications and a breakdown of how many were recruited as employees from that figure.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We did give those figures while the Deputy was out of the room-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was in the Chamber.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Of the 8,000, we took in 415.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of 8,000 applications, 415 people were employed.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That is correct.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be fairly misleading, therefore, to refer to 8,000 applications, which makes it sound as though people were knocking down the door, if we gained only 400 employees from that. Did Ms McCrum say 68 were taken in?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That is specifically in the Naval Service.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many did Ms McCrum say left?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

In the Naval Service, 68 were taken in and 95 left.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms McCrum also said the next tranche was 31 and that 14 left.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Does the Deputy want me to talk about the Naval Service specifically or about the Defence Forces overall?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Naval Service is a part of our Defence Forces, so I include the Naval Service in that. Did the 8,000 applicants relate to one particular cohort?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No, they were for the Defence Forces overall, that is, the Naval Service, the Air Corps and the Army.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why, then, would Ms McCrum try to make a distinction? It is 400 overall. What are the overall figures that left-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Sorry, but the Chair was asking me specifically about the Naval Service and I was answering him. If the Deputy wants to know about the 8,000, they were people who had taken the time to apply. They go through various checks and balances-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not have much time-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

-----so I was not misleading anybody. I would like to clarify that I was not misleading the Deputy. A total of 8,000 people applied. That came down to 415, as I said.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many people left the Defence Forces in the same period in which 400 were recruited?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

755.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would call that haemorrhaging staff.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That is correct.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have nearly 50% more leaving than we are recruiting-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That is correct and that is-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where would Ms McCrum see that going?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

As I tried to say at the beginning of the discussion, we have put in certain retention measures. We have increased the recruitment age to 39. We have increased the age up to which members can serve to 60, and we are going to go to 62 when we get the legislation in place. They are significant retention measures we have put in place. We have increased the salary between 2021 and 2024. It is now €39,000 to start, a 34% increase-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Excuse me, Ms McCrum-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

-----and private healthcare has also been introduced.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did the Department put in the retention measures?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The retention measures have just gone in in the previous quarter.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They have just gone in.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

They had to be discussed with the representative associations and our colleagues in the Department of public expenditure, and they are very positive moves that will show a trend.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are very slow positive moves, however. How many do we have to lose before we are able to make decisions to retain as opposed to recruit?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The decisions have been made.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very slowly. Nobody could deny that. Next year-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Secretary General might just clarify that all the measures she has outlined have been in place since the last quarter of last year. Is that correct?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Certainly, the age retention measures and the retirement measures came in, I think, in March of this year. The primary healthcare, which is for all enlisted, came in last year-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the pay?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The doubling of the patrol duty allowance for the Naval Service came in in January of this year, and the pay was increased probably during 2023.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms McCrum for clarifying that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Moving on to the LÉ Eithne, the report states it would cost somewhere in the region of €300 million to replace it. Is there an intention to replace the LÉ Eithne?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The multirole vessel project, which is the project that is looking for a vessel to replace the LÉ Eithne, is still in planning stage. No decision has been made and no budgetary allocation has been made to that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many of the six vessels it has is the Naval Service able to man at the moment?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The posture is three. We have two at sea and one on standby.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where is the one on standby?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It would be at the base in Haulbowline. We also have two new vessels that are going to come onstream. They are in the process of becoming operationally capable.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Ms McCrum saying we could soon have onstream five vessels manned with personnel?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I would hope so but I cannot guarantee it. That will depend on the personnel and the-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the problem such that we do not have it now? What is the issue?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We do not have the sufficient personnel to man them. That has been acknowledged-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With the figures Ms McCrum has just given me, if 750 staff have left and only 400 have been recruited, it is highly unlikely that is going to happen soon.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

If we look at the Naval Service specifically, we have seen a change in that we are now in a positive for the first quarter. This is only speculative but if we can progress with that, and there is a lot of work going into progressing it, we will be able to do that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not know that, as a country, we can work our Defence Forces off speculation. It is the one issue on which I would hope we would have certainty, particularly given what the Department is tasked with. If it is speculative, can Ms McCrum tell me what figures we require and what figures we have currently? We will probably be able to make up our minds as to whether we will have €250 million worth of equipment sitting on the pier or floating on the waters, probably helping us combat crime, drugs and other issues.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

In the Naval Service, we should have 1,094 people. We currently have 66% of that strength, or 722 people.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are short of 300 personnel, therefore.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That is correct.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it in the first quarter of this year or the entire year last year that 68 were recruited?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The figure 68 was for all of 2023. We are currently at 31 inductions and we hope we will-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The figures 31 and 68 are hardly adding up to what we were at. It is a static figure given Ms McCrum said 95, or whatever it was, had left. We are still in a deficit position of recruitment if we put those figures rightly.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We have to stabilise these numbers first-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, we do.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

-----and I hope those retention measures I outlined, such as allowing direct-entry specialists to be recruited up to 58 years of age, the starting age up to 39 and the mandatory-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, we have those. As I said-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We will not see the impact of those until-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, until next year.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No, we will probably see them, we hope, this year.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From a PAC perspective, we will probably see them next year.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Sure.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the incentive to buy the two ships from New Zealand when the Department knew it did not have the personnel to man them?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

At that time, we did not know we would not have these personnel. We-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When were they purchased?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

In 2022.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Department spent €26 million and two years later, it found out. Did it have the personnel at the time?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There has been a rapid decline in the Naval Service and that is acknowledged. When we go to purchase a ship, we do not just buy it off the shelf. It takes time to buy these things and we need to plan ahead, so we plan ahead progressively and with a basis of strategic and operational needs and how it will be operated. At that stage, the advice we got was that we needed to operate two smaller ships within the Irish Sea and that particular area. That is why we purchased the ships. A very strong business case was put forward for purchasing them, and that is why the purchase was made. Those two ships will house 25 people each. They are family friendly and are suitable for a base outside of Haulbowline. It was a strategic decision to purchase them.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where are they then?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

One of them is out on the sea at the moment, namely, the LÉ Aoibhinn.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did it go out?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It went out this week

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It went out this week.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

As planned.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As planned, so it was-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

In terms of when it came and how it was to be-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was not the fact that Ms McCrum was appearing before the Committee of Public Accounts; it was planned. Does Ms McCrum know what I mean? It was planned to go out, was it? Has it actually gone out on the seas?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is out on the sea.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is out on the sea, so it is-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is out on the sea in operational capability.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is in operational capability. When will we see the next one?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I cannot give the Deputy a date. I am not in charge of the technical operations-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So, all the planning-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

-----but I will let the Deputy know.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms McCrum just referred to all of the planning. However, she does not have a date for when we will see another one.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I would hope that it will be very shortly but I cannot give the Deputy an exact date. I will write to her on that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine. There has been some controversy with regard to the external oversight committee. Where is that at the moment?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That is part of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024. The Tánaiste is actually attending the Committee Stage debate this afternoon.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is attending the Committee Stage debate. Is it still the contention that Ms McCrum would be part of that oversight committee?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

That is a decision for the Government.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Right. I should hope so. Would Ms McCrum, as Secretary General, see anything wrong with that? What is her opinion of that? I know it was a recommendation, but-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It was a recommendation by the independent review group. It was decided by the Government that I would serve on that. As long as I am the Accounting Officer and that decision by the Government stands, I will be serving on it.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You will be serving on it. Do you see any conflict with that?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

No.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You do not. You genuinely do not see any conflict with that.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

There is a very unique construct in the way the Department of Defence is constructed. That enables me-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An external oversight committee is an external oversight committee. It would be-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I am one member of that committee.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not yet, you are not.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I am currently.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are currently.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I am currently. It is a non-statutory oversight body at the moment.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. If it were to become statutory, you would see nothing wrong with that.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I have contributed to the committee in the 25 times we have met, and I will continue to do so as long as I am asked to do so.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking you for your personal opinion. Does you see any conflict?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is external oversight of the Defence Forces.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of which you are Secretary General.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I am the Secretary General of the Department of Defence.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, and you do not see any conflict, personally or otherwise. In your opinion, that is fine.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In fairness, the witness has answered the question.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She has not answered it actually, Chair.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She said that she did not, that she is Secretary General of the Department and that it is a Government decision.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is, but I asked whether she has a personal opinion as to the conflict.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

My personal opinions do not matter. It is a decision by the Government that I, in the role-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms McCrum is here as Secretary General.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

-----and whoever follows me in the role of Secretary General, will serve on the external oversight board.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would have thought that as Secretary General, it would be a conflict and that Ms McCrum would be able to voice that in her opinion.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a matter of opinion. The Secretary General is an employee.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I absolutely accept that-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She takes direction-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but I would also say that there is a level of-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just a second, Deputy. She takes directions from the Government. It is a Government decision to set up the committee. The Government has decided that the Secretary General should be on it, so she is on it.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sure that if Commissioner Harris was asked to go on GSOC, he would probably have to give advice-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I take the point the Deputy is making, but what I want to say is-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is all I was asking, Chair.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What I am trying to get across here is that the witness has answered the question. I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have been given an overview of the age profile of the helicopter fleet and the need to replace them. Does the Department ever have to hire in replacements, even on a short-term basis?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I will ask my colleague, Ms Nolan, to clarify some of the issues.

Ms Aileen Nolan:

I want to clarify what I said earlier. We have eight helicopters, but two of them are training helicopters and four of them are operational helicopters. I got the statistics on the serviceability issue for which the Deputy asked. In 2023, the serviceability of the fleet of six was 44%. In 2024, it is 46%. On average, two of the six are available at any one time. Of those two, generally, one is dedicated to the emergency aeromedical service, EAS. Is that okay? I wanted to clarify that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Nolan for clarifying that.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I just checked with my colleague and to the best of our knowledge, we have not hired in helicopters.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. With regard to the ships that were bought from New Zealand, I recall there being an issue with how they were transported. Do we know what the cost of that was?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

My colleagues might have that information. Was the transport cost not included in the full price?

Mr. David Geraghty:

Yes, the full price of the project is €36 million. That includes the transport costs.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is €36 million. Does Mr. Geraghty know what the transport cost was?

Mr. David Geraghty:

I do not know that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can he come back to us on that, please?

Mr. David Geraghty:

I will do, yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked Ms McCrum earlier about the claims and she told us there are currently 499 claims. Do we know if that is from this year, last year or the year before?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The value of them-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the profile there?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Is the Deputy looking for the value?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The value and the number.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

It is the value and the number. The number of cases that opened on January 2023, for example, was 495. What closed in 2023 was 486. They received 71 and there were 80 cases closed, leaving a balance of 486. I am not sure I have the value of those, and there is no estimate in it. There was nearly €2 million related to compensation awards. That was what was handed out through those ones that were completed.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was a very small number that were completed relative to the number Ms McCrum has. Does she have the numbers for 2022?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes, I do. The number of cases on hand at the beginning of 2022 was 521. Up to December, the number of cases received was 61, the number finalised was 87 and therefore the number on hand was 495.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Ms McCrum have a monetary value?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The monetary value on that was €3 million. Depending on the nature of the cases that settle, that can change the quantum.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I said, Ms McCrum might just send-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

We can send the Deputy those tables if she wishes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If she would, and the monetary value and the numbers and what was and was not settled.

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The nature of the claims-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

The Deputy wants the breakdown. We have that. I am sorry; I cannot put my hand on it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In terms of risk assessment, obviously, we are an island and the Naval Service is very important from that point of view. We have had some very high-profile drug seizures that required oversight. Certainly, one of them appears not to have been intelligence-led but was kind of fortunate. The other thing is that there has been activity in terms of Russian submarines in Irish waters, or international waters off the Irish coast at the very least, where there would be cables and things. Does the risk analysis the Department does define the number of patrols that should happen? Do we meet what would have been identified in the risk analysis?

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

In terms of responsibility for the internal security of the State, responsibility for maritime security within Ireland's territorial waters rests with the Minister for Justice and An Garda Síochána. The Naval Service then has its fisheries monitoring centre in Haulbowline. That remotely monitors vessels in the Irish EEZ on a 24-7 basis. That 24-7 monitoring mechanism is in place. We also have air patrols. The C295 aircraft would be out on a maritime basis as well. When there is something, and again I am not the operational person-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is why it would be nice to have a-----

Ms Jacqui McCrum:

I am not sure they would give exact details of operations. We do not generally comment on operations.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source