Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, to the House to discuss the all-important issue of community safety. He has ten minutes to make his opening statement.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is a great honour to be before Seanad Éireann for the second time. I was here last week talking about a youth mobility scheme the EU is implementing with the UK and our intention to opt into it. I am back today to talk on an issue that probably is of more central importance to my function as Minister for Justice, that is, the whole area of crime, policing and community safety. I repeat what I said at the outset last week, namely, that I take very seriously my duty of being accountable to the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is a great privilege to be Minister for justice, home affairs and migration. There are many talented people in Dáil Éireann and in this House who would do this job excellently and would love the opportunity to do it. I am fully aware it is a great privilege to have the job. I want Senators to know I will work tirelessly at it. I also want them to know that, clearly, I do not have any monopoly of wisdom in respect of the issues. I have great respect for people elected to the Houses of the Oireachtas. I will listen to what Members of Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann say about how I should proceed and what steps can be taken to improve community policing and community safety.

One of the priorities of the Government, and one of mine as Minister for Justice, is to try to ensure people are living in communities that are safe and enjoyable. It is important to be clear that we will never get rid of criminal activity. There will always be some level of crime in society. What infuriates people is that when crime inevitably happens, they want to see a system in place to respond to it.The primary way by which that is done is through having An Garda Síochána investigate when complaints of criminal activity are made. If those complaints are upheld and valid, we then need to ensure we have a criminal justice system that can adjudicate on whether the crimes deserve the imposition of punishment. If there is an imposition of punishment, we need to look at other aspects other than sentencing terms of incarceration. An issue I am anxious to bring forward is the development of community sanctions. Our prisons are places that should be reserved for people who are violent and who are a threat to others within the community. We need to look at more innovative methods of trying to impose penalties on people who are not violent and who find themselves before the criminal justice system because of personal issues such as addiction or other issues.

A huge amount of my focus will be on An Garda Síochána. Nothing I want to do or the Government wants to achieve can be achieved without the support and success of An Garda Síochána. When a crime is committed, the first port of call a victim has is to contact An Garda Síochána. Unless the force is properly resourced and given adequate powers which are clear and definable, we are not providing an appropriate system for people to ensure they feel a sense of safety.

At present in An Garda Síochána we have 14,100 members. It is not enough for a country of our size. We also have, however, about 3,500 civilian staff within An Garda Síochána. The objective of civilianisation was to try to get people who are not gardaí doing the jobs we do not want gardaí to do. Our primary focus and my primary focus when it comes to An Garda Síochána is to try to create the climate which allows gardaí to be more visible in our community. As I have said before, we are lucky in this country in that the vast majority of people are supportive of the police force in this country. They want to see gardaí on their streets. In some other parts of the world that does not exist. I am sure most Senators here will be aware from going to meetings in their local community that one of the things repeated most is that people want to see more members of An Garda Síochána on the street. That is something positive. It shows that there is general confidence in the Garda. It is also something that imposes an obligation on someone like me and on the Government to ensure we get membership numbers up in An Garda Síochána and that we do not have members of the force doing things such as bureaucratic office jobs. We do not want to do that.

At present we have a recruitment drive in the force. It is part of my job, as Minister for Justice, to try to encourage people to join the police force. Sometimes being a member of An Garda Síochána is a bit like politics. There is a lot of negative coverage about the fact that being a garda is a tough job. There is a lot of reference to the abuse and criticism gardaí get on social media. I am sure that is correct in the same way it is correct for Members of this House and Dáil Éireann as well. I do not think we can allow that narrative to be the dominant message when it comes to being a member of An Garda Síochána. It is a fulfilling and rewarding job. It is an interesting job that requires people to do diverse actions every day. My job is to ensure people are aware that it is a much more multifaceted and fulfilling job than is presented. The tagline for the recruitment campaign is that it is a job worth doing. I am very clear that it is.

In terms of the different type of criminal activity in the country, I am aware that it is going to be impossible to get rid of all criminal activity. Nobody expects a politician or government to do that. It is important to distinguish certain types of criminal activity. The type of criminal activity that has a significant impact on an individual is when violence is inflicted on them. Anyone in this House will be aware, from speaking to constituents and from talking to councillors, that it has a very debilitating and negative impact on the victim if they have been subjected to acts of violence or, indeed, acts of sexual violence against them because of their gender. That is something we need to adopt a strenuous approach towards. People need to know that if that happens to them, there will be swift response by the State to their complaint and there will be an appropriate progression of a case from investigation by the Garda, to the courts, and to a sanction if the person is convicted. That is one of the major focuses I will have in respect of violence against the individual.

I commend my predecessor as Minister, Deputy Helen McEntee, who did an excellent amount of work in respect of gender based violence. In fact, tomorrow morning I will be at a reception for a further launch by Cuan, which is the statutory body to combat domestic and gender-based violence. It is extraordinary to think people say more men are victims of violence than women. The distinguishing thing about violence against women is that it is predominantly committed within a relationship. The fact there is a relationship there and the attacker of the person is somebody known to them is something that should send warning signals to us. It is also something that should make it easier, if I can use that term, to try to combat it. We know the environment within which women, predominantly, are going to be exposed to gender-based violence. We need to ensure there are mechanisms in place to deal with that.

I am conscious that Senator O'Loughlin is here. She played a significant role during the previous term of the Seanad in respect of issues such as putting together a register for domestic violence. That is something I am working on and would like to see brought forward. I also have the Guardianship of Infants Act issue, which can arise when one partner commits a crime of violence, whether murder or manslaughter, against another partner, and a situation develops where they retain guardianship of any surviving children. That is an issue that needs to be looked at. I have asked my Department officials to have a look at and I will be bringing forward legislation in respect of that shortly.

I am conscious that the whole area of my brief includes issues of national security. I know that is not the focus of the debate in this House today, but it is relevant because An Garda Síochána is responsible for national security in this country. The responsibility for that rests with it and it has to be resourced in respect of that. That is another branch in respect of community policing. Many of the Senators were Members of the previous Oireachtas and so will be aware that the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act was enacted by the Houses of the Oireachtas in 2024. It has not yet been commenced, meaning I have to sign a statutory instrument stating the Act is now in place. It is important that is done in the very near future. I am aiming to do it in March. The reason for such urgency is that it is complementary series of statutory provisions in respect of policing and An Garda Síochána. Members will be aware the term of office of the current Commissioner comes to an end in the summer. We need to ensure the new statutory regime for the appointment of a new Commissioner is in place so it can happen without delay and so all the statutory provisions are given effect to.

I thank everyone for listening to me and I am here to listen to the Senators.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I will be sharing my time with Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. He is absolutely the right person at the right time. There is no doubt there is a huge weight of responsibility on his shoulders. We need to get this right and I have no doubt he will. I appreciate the fact he mentioned Jennie's law in his introduction. I worked closely with Jason Poole, whom the Minister met several times himself, in establishing a domestic violence register Bill. We hope to see that come to fruition under the Minister's leadership during this mandate.

This is an important topic and I am pleased to lead off on it for Fianna Fáil on this side of the House. We know everyone wants to live, and has the right to live, in a safe and secure community and home. Unfortunately, throughout the country we see communities dealing with the scourge of crime and antisocial behaviour. I know the Minister is committed to expanding, developing and strengthening the role of An Garda Síochána. The tagline he mentioned is important. It is a job worth doing. I thank all of those who help keep us safe on the streets of our towns, cities and communities.Aside from what gardaí do, the Judiciary is another really important part of this process, so it is important we get that legislation around sentencing right. I wish to make an appeal for Kildare on the appointment of judges. In Kildare, we currently have only one judge who deals with thousands of cases every single week. Unfortunately, in many cases where there is a level of urgency, particularly around family law, those cases keep getting put off week after week, month after month and year after year. I would appreciate if the Minister could look at that.

I want to talk briefly about preventative measures and youth justice programmes which are hugely important. From my own experience in Kildare - I am sure it is no different from other places - the vast majority of young people are excellent individuals who contribute to society and to their communities. Unfortunately, we have a tiny percentage who are wreaking havoc on their communities. There has been a particular problem in rural areas outside Naas and Newbridge. Senator McCarthy referred to this issue last week when he spoke about Rathasker Stud and only ten minutes ago, I spoke to Madeline Burns from there. In recent weeks, hundreds of thousands of euro worth of damage has been done. When we are talking about farms, we are talking about the welfare of animals, such as cattle and horses. We are now coming into the foaling season. We see young people going out for the hell of it to create havoc. It is very important to put an awful lot of thought into how we deal with this. The gardaí has been very helpful in this regard. It has been able to get some of the young people, but it is difficult because they are under age. It is known that similar has been done before and this needs to be taken into account.

Talking about rural crime, I also want to mention fly-tipping and dumping. This is a huge problem in rural parts of our country. Indeed, millions of euro has been spent on cleaning up the Curragh Plains after fly-tipping and dumping. It is worth looking at the Greentown Project in Limerick, which I would like to see rolled out for how we deal with young people. Extra CCTV is also very important. Retail crime is something we come across all the time. Talking to those in the retail industry and seeing the amount of shoplifting going on, it is something we need to take seriously and put a plan in place.

My final point refers to having a safe public place unit. It is really important when we look at our villages, towns and cities that we have proper public lighting and street planning. We must do our best to create positive and vibrant places for the communities that use those villages and towns. If not, places will turn into no-go zones and, unfortunately, everybody will suffer - those who live there and those who have day or night-time businesses there. I appreciate the opportunity to raise these issues with the Minister.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the very important debate we are having. I specifically raise the issue of domestic and gender-based violence. We are at a record high of gender-based violence, with 20,000 more reports to gardaí in more than four years. It is good that people are coming forward and reporting to gardaí but it is clear there has been an increase in violence in the community.

Women and children are dying in their own homes at the hands of somebody known to them and whom they have been in an intimate relationship with. As the Minister rightly pointed out, there is a special aspect attached to gender-based violence - the relationship and the trust that the victim has placed on the perpetrator - that gives a different tint to this. People are being abused and traumatised. Children's lives are being destroyed within their homes. This needs to be seriously looked at by the Government. I know it is something the Minister has a personal commitment to. I am glad he mentioned Cuan, which the Minister, Deputy McEntee, established in her previous role and on which work is ongoing. While it is a very important development, I know from speaking to colleagues at all ends of the country that we do not have enough women's refuge spaces here in Dublin and across the country.

I have spoken to colleagues who have served in these Houses over the years. They have told me that a number of years ago, if a woman came to a clinic in a domestic violence situation, they would have been able to work with that woman to secure council accommodation and get her to safety within a couple of weeks. That does not happen anymore because of the housing crisis. Women are remaining in difficult and dangerous situations because of our housing crisis. That is completely unacceptable. Women are dying. Their children are dying or are being left without their mother, as in the case of Jennie Poole, which was mentioned by Senator O'Loughlin, whom I commend for her work on Jennie's law. We need to make it a matter of priority to progress that. If Jennifer Poole had known that her partner had a history of domestic violence, she would have never exposed herself or her children to that risk. She did not know because we do not have the adequate laws in place and we need to change that as a matter of priority. Those children are left without a mother and Jason and his family are left without a much-cherished sister and family member.

This is not acceptable in this day and age. We need to have a zero-tolerance approach to domestic violence. On that note, I commend Jarlath Burns, GAA president, on recently taking a strong leadership position in this regard. There can be no place in society for domestic abusers. We need to stand up and say it is not good enough. We need to call a spade a spade and not hide behind people who are held up as pillars of their communities. We need to call them out and say exactly what they are. I commend Jarlath Burns and I hope plenty more in similar positions will take a strong stance against domestic and gender-based violence.

Senator O'Loughlin also mentioned the lack of judges we have, particularly at District Court level. Many family law matters, such as custody access, guardianship and maintenance, are decided at District Court level. To have a situation where people are rushed through the court system because of a lack of judges is completely unacceptable and in many cases, this leads to an unsafe environment.

It will come as no surprise that I raise the issue of the new family court complex at Hammond Lane. It is a top priority of mine. It is something I have raised constantly since my election in 2016. I was glad to hear from the Minister, in a previous forum, that it is also a priority of his and something that will be progressed without any further delay during his tenure.

We need extra gardaí in north County Dublin. We have a booming population and we are absorbing the housing needs not only of Dublin but of the country. We do not have enough gardaí to deal with antisocial behaviour that arises. People are afraid because their calls go unanswered. They ring 999 and nobody comes. That needs to be recalibrated. It is not a direct issue the Minister can deal with but one for the Garda Commissioner. We need a policy which looks at populations. Areas of large population growth should be prioritised for the new gardaí who will hopefully be coming out of the Garda recruitment campaign that the Minister has well steered.

I will leave it at that. I thank the Minister and look forward to his response.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome Deputy Shay Brennan and Councillor Fiona Murray to the Visitors Gallery today. I hope they enjoy their visit to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister to the Chamber. I thank him for joining us today to talk about community safety.

We are here to talk about one of the most underacknowledged crises in the nation: the crisis of law and order. Many Irish people across the country feel that policing is virtually non-existent, criminality is allowed to run free and justice for victims is a distant ideal for regular people. At the core of this issue is the critical understaffing of An Garda Síochána. Many communities across Ireland find themselves with virtually no Garda presence, particularly in smaller rural communities. Even in Dublin, the force is stretched thin as it tries to deal with the rising levels of offences, with many stories of gardaí taking over an hour to respond to instances of violent assault.We also need to be realistic and truthful with the public in how we record crime according to nationality. For too long, our Government has been obfuscating any links between crime and the origins of the criminals. In 2022, plans to consider recording nationality were announced. What became of these considerations? Across Europe, many other national police forces have been allowed to record this data and have subsequently studied these questions in depth. This has allowed raw data to inform the conversations and decision-making of other EU nations. The data would suggest allowing unvetted potential criminals to come and go as they please, as the current Government does, is not conducive to community safety.

At the same time, we are also having to deal with a new generation of cartelised drug gangs that are increasingly operating with ease across porous borders using Ireland as a drugs import hub for Europe. I take this opportunity to praise the Trojan work being undertaken by Detective Chief Superintendent Séamus Boland and his team in stepping up seizures and combating organised crime in our country. However, it is worrying that the scale and number of seizures and arrests only ever seem to increase. Unfortunately, like many gardaí, Detective Chief Superintendent Boland is fighting an uphill battle.

Year in and year out, the successive governments of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have seemed to think it acceptable to throw open the borders and to then sit on their hands while our police force haemorrhages numbers. Last week, we were told it is expected that 1,640 gardaí will be eligible to retire in the coming five years. Meanwhile, in the past two years, only 1,304 entered the college at Templemore with only a little over 800 being sworn in. This is not considering the 500 who left the force last year alone. Who can blame them for wanting to go? As force numbers dwindle and crime rates soar, the working life of those gardaí who choose to stay on becomes even more miserable and toxic. They are overworked and undersupported and we are now stuck in a vicious circle where each garda who leaves creates more incentive for the rest to go.

What is the Government going to do to address this question? Is it talking about seriously improving the pay packets of our police force's members to better compensate them for their hard work? No. Instead, the Government is trying to somehow close the gap by bandying about proposals for facial recognition laws. Ultimately, the Government appears to be intent on straying into very dangerous and even totalitarian waters, violating our citizens' right to privacy. At the same time, it does not seem intent on paying for the police force it intends to uphold this project. In this regard, it is unbelievable that I have to credit the Government for at least being somewhat more realistic than certain members of the Opposition who have been proposing that we put special anonymous knife surrender bins at the disposal of would-be stabbers. This approach has failed totally in England since its introduction more than 20 years ago. At least the Government is a little more imaginative and original with its impossible ideas as to how to reduce crime without paying police a decent wage and pension.

If the Minister wishes to make concrete improvements to security surveillance in this country, I am happy to suggest improvements that could be made today. For example, we could improve surveillance by having data controllers permit the usage of number plate recognition in the CCTV systems currently available in many towns and cities nationwide instead of using number plate recognition software solely to dole out speeding tickets on motorways and to take money off people in high-end car parks. The Minister could also make immediate improvements in the exact same area by ordering the chief executives of the local authorities to be the data controllers of their local CCTV systems. Unfortunately, many CEOs are unwilling to take up that burden. The Minister can and must step in to force the CEOs to step up.

While speaking of aimless and confused projects, I will also take the opportunity to raise the issue of the future of Thornton Hall. Following the fiasco of numerous Government developments such as the Dublin children's hospital, many Irish taxpayers are justified in fearing that we will face yet another end-of-the-rainbow scenario. In other words, the closer we get to the theoretical deadline for Thornton Hall, the further away it will get. While wasted time would be one thing, we know well enough that the further the deadline recedes the higher the final bill will be. Sadly, we are already beginning to see that in this case. A report in The Irish Timesearlier this year showed that more than €114,000 had already been spent over the last three years on an effectively empty site. This included €27,000 to repair boundary and perimeter security and €4,832 in water charges. The final aggravation associated with this issue is that the Government is not only failing to tell us its plans to get things done, but is also now failing to tell us what it plans to do with the site in the first place. Last year, the Department of Justice told us that 30 acres of this site were to be earmarked to create a processing centre for asylum applicants. Knowing the scale of the migration and asylum crisis, it is highly unlikely that these 30 acres would be enough. I understand that a contract was signed with the Prison Service for the use of this land for two years. A contract was also signed by the Department of children and integration in May 2024 with the provider of on-site services and facilities for these international protection applicants. I have no doubt that this contract is still in place despite plans for this site getting side-tracked. Will the Minister look into that waste of money as well?

In addition, we are facing a crisis of overcrowding in our prisons. Sadly, it looks like the new prison will need every acre we can get. Just today, the Irish Independentreported that more than 300 prisoners are without beds, with some commentators believing that more than 500 are sleeping on mattresses on floors. The issue has been so bad for so long that, as far back as May of last year, the Irish Prison Service was going into talks with the Defence Forces to reopen the old military prison at the Curragh. I ask the Minister for Justice, who is with us today, to give us a timeline for the construction of the new prison at Thornton Hall and to let us know how much of this site his Department is willing to hand over to his colleagues at the Department of children and integration. Is he taking it back? How does he intend to co-ordinate the construction project alongside the processing centre?

Times change and plans change. That is fine but we simply must have a plan in the first place. This style of slap-dash improvisation is unacceptable and not worthy of Government, whether in the reinforcement of An Garda Síochána, the creation of the new security legislation or the construction of a new prison facility. I actually believe the Minister will do really good things in this Department. I really have faith in him. I look forward to working with him over the coming years.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I am sharing time with Senator Duffy. We will take five minutes each, if that is agreeable. The Minister is very welcome to the Chamber. He has now been here two weeks in a row, which is a good start. You cannot talk about community safety or crime without first acknowledging the service our gardaí provide right across the country. In our jobs, we deal with them on a weekly basis. We know the sacrifices they and their families make for them to carry out the work they do. We have family members, friends and neighbours who play that really important role. When we talk about community drive, we should talk about it in a positive sense. There are challenges in every job, and in the job of our gardaí more than most, but that role can be really fulfilling. That is important to say.

The Minister talked about different types of crime. In Tipperary, there are three types of crime that happen quite a lot and that cause great distress and frustration for communities. One of these rural crimes is violence, particularly in the robbery of farm equipment and machinery. It happens to people in rural areas who are in a vulnerable situation as they are not close to neighbours and friends. In Clonmel two or three years ago, a young farmer came home to his farm and people were on site robbing machinery and equipment. He tried to intervene in some way and was severely injured. We can be thankful that he has now recovered. Only a couple of days later, a meeting was held in the community hall. Over 600 people attended because of the fear people have of what can happen.These people sped off, drove up the motorway and were not found again. That is a common occurrence. It does not always happen that a farm owner gets injured but that potential is always there and that is where the fear comes from, that they are often on their own and in a vulnerable situation.

The other thing that happens in Tipperary quite a lot is theft - shop crime, where people rob from shops. That this happens on a regular basis is a huge financial burden on shops and it also causes huge intimidation and fear among the staff who work there. Only a couple of weeks ago, two women working in a small shop in a rural town in Tipperary were confronted by armed robbers who robbed the place. Luckily the two women were not injured but they were traumatised. In fairness, local gardaí responded extremely quickly and actually apprehended the people and they will go through the court process, which is a really good outcome. That fear is there. Talking to shop owners right across the county of Tipperary that happens on a daily and weekly basis and robbery is at an all time high.

The third thing, which is quite common, is the sale of drugs right in a town centre on a main street. The Minister said in his contribution that visibility of gardaí is one of the things that keeps being brought up with us as public representatives, and I completely agree with him. I also agree with his narrative that when people talk about visibility of gardaí that means there is trust in the gardaí but people want to see more of them. We see such obvious signs of drug taking and drug selling on the main streets of places such as Clomnel and other towns across Tipperary, and that is not the way it was 20 or 25 years ago.

Obviously we need more gardaí and recruitment is important. The Minister said there are 14,100 gardaí. That is not enough but we need to remember that only ten years ago, we only had 12,500 gardaí so it has increased. When people talk about gardaí retiring, there are new people coming in. This is important for me because Templemore is in Tipperary. Every 11 or 12 weeks I see an average of 200 new gardaí coming through the system, all proud of the fact they are able to serve their country.

Recruitment is a challenge. We made a commitment in the programme for Government to get 5,000 new gardaí. We are at a stage in this country, which is very positive, that we have full employment. That makes getting more gardaí a challenge. What is the Minister's plan to do that?

My final question is about the capacity of prisons. With an increasing population we need more prison spaces, and more prisons. What is the long-term objective? I know Thornton Hall is one but in general, what is the long-term objective in terms of prison spaces?

Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I welcome the Minister and thank him for his contributions last week and this afternoon. My experience of policing in County Mayo has been very positive. I served on Mayo County Council over the past six years and the model I found most effective and efficient in terms of being close to the people and gardaí being the guardians of the peace on the ground was the community policing model in the towns of Castlebar, Westport, and Ballina where I am from.

The community policing model is brilliant in multiple ways. It is the touchpoint for the gardaí on the ground, whether it is touching base with the shops to keep an eye on crime, being visible on the streets or in relation to rural isolation. There is nothing better than a garda in a community policing role who is conscious of Mary who lives on her own two miles out of town and who may need something, such as presence and visitation. Given the number of community gardaí in Mayo who are fabulous at their jobs and do them so well, I ask the Minister to consider expanding that model and rolling it out as much as possible to every town, village and community because it has such a positive effect. Even from intelligence gathering on crime or petty crime, although not even petty crimes but larger scale crimes that are committed, community police are on the ground every day and are picking up information that can be fed back while also showing the presence of the force right across the community.

From an elected member's point of view, the second matter is the role of joint policing committees. I know changes have been proposed but it is really important from a local democracy point of view that the decision-making, interaction and orbit of the Garda remains as close as possible to the county councillors and elected representatives on the ground. As representatives we are, and councillors are, the touchpoint for the community on the ground and the elected members and the gardaí need to be interlinked. It can only be a net gain for communities.

When preparing for my contribution, I wrote a note about data control and Senator Keogan raised this issue as well. The system in place does not make sense. In Ballina, if gardaí want access to CCTV, they have to go to the county council, as the data controller, to retrieve footage and video evidence. That does not make sense and we need to have a ministerial directive, or something else, that cuts through that in the interest of the common good and public safety. A council building could be closed on a bank holiday Monday and a crime could be committed on Friday night but gardaí would have to wait until Tuesday morning to access footage. That does not make sense in any world or any walk of life and I ask the Minister to look into that issue.

Another opportunity is town and village regeneration. There is still dereliction and vacancy right across the country. It is still not being dealt with. Passive surveillance is such a brilliant way of tackling and addressing crime and antisocial behaviour in towns and villages. There needs to be a conversation around that between the Department of Justice and the Department of local government and housing to make sure there are regulations that encourage over-the-shop developments and that there is deregulation to allow for that but that they are safety conscious from a fire point of view. It is powerful to have people on the ground, monitoring and keeping an eye on the town centre, so that it is not quiet and dead in the evening but that there is activity and vibrancy.

My final point concerns the proliferation of vaping shops in towns and villages across the country. There are multiple examples in County Mayo of vapes and candy being sold together. It is disgusting and is not positive from any point of view. It has so many antisocial knock-on effects, so the Minister should do whatever he can do within his power. There is a loophole that vaping and candy can be advertised and sold together on high streets. Some of these are heritage streets. It is totally out of kilter in terms of what we are trying to do about town regeneration. If the Minister has powers and means within his office and Ministry to address that, it would be most welcome across the board. I would really welcome his consideration of that and if he could put some effort into this issue because this is brought up at grassroots level and by councillors right across the country. It would be really welcome if this issue was addressed.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I understand Senators Nicole Ryan and Maria McCormack are sharing time, with five minutes each. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Nicole Ryan (Sinn Fein)
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It is great to see the Minister back again. Community safety is a fundamental right. Too often we discuss crime and safety with the focus placed on urban areas. There is no doubt the cities face serious crime issues but the conversation cannot ignore rural Ireland, where crime, harassment and fear are just as real and sometimes more so given the lack of Garda presence and resources. For example, in my constituency, the community of Charleville lives in absolute fear due to massive antisocial issues. There have been a spate of car break-ins in Macroom and Coachford where people are living in fear in their own homes and estates. When these crimes go unsolved and there is little to no Garda presence, it sends a message to criminals that they can get away without any consequences and our communities are left to fend for themselves.

It is not just property crime that affects our rural communities. It is sometimes something much more insidious. It is the everyday fear among so many people, especially women, who live with it. I personally know that fear. Growing up, my mother always said that it is not always the big cities, it can also be the local towns but when you are 18 you think you know it all. When I was 18 I was walking home from our local nightclub one night. The walk is ten minutes long in a well lit area and I walked it thousands of times since I was in primary school. On that night I was followed by a man and chased home.The only luck I had on my side was that I was faster than him. While I did get home safe and sound, it did not stop there because the fear was with me for weeks on end. For weeks, I had to ask my mother to drop me into town because I did not feel safe walking down, and I would make sure I was home before nightfall. A place where I grew up, and my home town, which was a safe place, as I always thought, became a source of anxiety for me. I look back on that incident and wonder why I did not report it. It was because I felt then that nobody would believe me. I feared my experiences would be dismissed, that I would be minimised and I would be asked if I was sure. Perhaps I was imaging things and maybe I overreacted.

The reality for many people in this country is the same. Their experiences of fear and danger are brushed aside because "nothing happened". However, something did happen. That fear stays with you. It changes how you move through the world and how you see things.

For those who do report the incidents, the system often fails them too. A woman in Newmarket was assaulted while walking in the woods, just going about her day. For every case like hers, there are countless cases where people are harassed, followed and threatened, but because they do not escalate to physical violence, it is not taken seriously.

In another incident, a friend and I were harassed by a man in Cork city. He had followed us from the city centre to Barrack Street. He was continuously trying to engage with us and we were not interested. From my past experiences and now being older, I was able to stand up to him and tell him I was not interested, and he backed away. However, because my friend was not vocal in that instance, he followed her instead. I stood there, watching her go off to her estate. He walked past me and ran after her. In that moment, all I could do was try to run after him. I probably would not have been able to overpower him but I did not want her to feel alone in that fear, the fear that I know well. When we tried to report it, it took three attempts for the issue to be acknowledged. Even then, because he had not physically attacked her, nothing could be done. What kind of message does this send, that you have to be attacked to be taken seriously, that women should have to accept harassment as part of their everyday life, that people in rural Ireland should just accept that stations are closing, and people have to live in fear and it is something they have to get used to? I refuse to accept that.

It is not just one incident, one case or one community. This is a systematic failure that has been years in the making. Garda numbers have fallen while the population has risen. Like other Senators have mentioned, 1,640 gardaí are eligible for retirement in the next five years yet the recruitment and training have not kept pace with demand. What do we need to do? We obviously need more gardaí, and I think everybody echoes that. We need investment in youth services and community resources because crime does not just happen in a vacuum. We need a justice system that actually listens to victims and understands that the fear and trauma are real, even if there are no bruises and broken bones to prove it. We need to stop treating safety as an afterthought. It should not take a high-profile crime or tragedy for action to be taken. This must change, and it must change now.

Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for coming back to us. I welcome that he will look at sentencing. The family of Joe Drennan lives in my constituency. Joe Drennan was a 21-year-old fourth-year student in journalism who lost his life by someone with 46 previous convictions. I quote his dad in the court, who asked whether that person would not serve one day for killing his son. I would welcome the opportunity for the Minister to speak to this family. Overall, we need to look at concurrent sentences, and where a fatality is involved, sentences should not run concurrently.

Community safety is an issue that affects every town, village and rural community in Ireland. It is the right of every person to feel safe in their own home, in their streets, in their workplaces and in public areas. Yet, across the country, including in my county of Laois, too many people no longer feel that sense of security, whether it is businesses in Portlaoise facing vandalism, rural families experiencing home break-ins, or elderly residents in Portarlington who just this weekend have been in contact with me, afraid to open their doors at night. The message is clear. We must do more our communities safer.

While increased Garda numbers and resources are critical, policing alone is not the answer. We need to be proactive rather than reactive. This is where crime prevention through environmental design, CPTED, comes into play. It is a proven evidenced-based approach that reduces crime by designing safer workspaces. This is a resource that is not currently being utilised to its full ability. I have talked in detail to our crime prevention officer about this. It is a resource that could really make a difference in crime prevention, community safety and our community. It is not just about security cameras or stronger policing. It is about smart urban planning that makes crime harder to commit. It is about better street lighting to deter antisocial behaviour; well-maintained public spaces that promote community pride and reduce opportunities for criminal activity; natural surveillance through urban design, ensuring sightlines are clear so there are no hidden areas for crime to take place; and secure, accessible infrastructure, including proper pedestrian routes, well-lit carparks and safer residential layouts. We have seen successful examples of this across the world, where simply improving the built environment leads to significant reductions in crime and antisocial behaviour. Why are we not embedding this into our development plans in Ireland?

If we are serious about crime prevention, we must give communities the power and resources to design safer spaces. This means requiring all housing estates and public developments to integrate CPTED principles; investing for urban design for town centres, including safer public transport hubs, parks and pedestrian areas; and providing grants to community groups for local safety initiatives such as CCTV, improving lighting and crime deterrent programmes.

In Laois, we already have strong neighbourhood watch and community alert groups and we have excellent community policing, but there needs to be real funding and support. CPTED should be a key part of local government planning and strategies, ensuring safety is designed into the community rather than being an afterthought. For rural communities, crime prevention is often a challenge due to isolation and a lack of Garda presence. In places like Ballyroan and Stradbally, we hear of farms being targeted for theft, of illegal dumping and of people left feeling vulnerable. CPTED can play a role here too, with better road layouts, strategic lighting and CCTV in key rural areas. These measures, alongside strong Garda resources and rural crime task forces, can protect our vulnerable communities. In urban areas like Portlaoise, we must address drug-related crime and antisocial behaviour with a combination of policing, youth engagement and safer public spaces. We know that poorly designed urban areas contribute to crime. Abandoned buildings, poorly lit streets and neglected parks become hotspots for illegal activities. Revitalising these spaces can make them safer for all.

Community safety is not just about crime statistics; it is about the people. It is about the woman fleeing domestic violence who finds no available refuge bed. It is about the child in an area where gangs and drugs seem more accessible than opportunities. We need more investment in domestic abuse services, youth intervention and education programmes, and a national strategy on urban design and community. I would welcome all of these.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Collins, is replacing the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan. I now move to Senators Nessa Cosgrove and Patricia Stephenson on behalf of the Cross-Party Group. I understand they are sharing time.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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People have the right to feel safe in their communities but they also have the right to thrive in their communities. I worked as a youth worker for more than 20 years. No young person wakes up in the morning and decides they will commit a crime. No young person decides throughout their life that they will become an addict. Crime cannot be treated in isolation. Years of underinvestment in front-line youth services and community-based services have led to this. I think the community policing model worked. Senator Duffy said this as well. I would love to see a move back to the community policing model. When I started in youth work more than 20 years ago, there was always a community garda presence, and that seems to have been eradicated over recent years.

We need to look at the whole area of drug use.That is the elephant in the room when we talk about crime. There was an important citizens' assembly on the use of drugs and taking a health and social education model to drug use. We need to start looking seriously at the decriminalisation of drugs and the users of drugs.

There is another area within crime prevention that we would support. Joint policing worked well. The Labour Party is in favour of the new local community safety partnerships, the membership of which will include 51% community members. The reduction of crime cannot be done on its own and we need to fully resource youth and community services. Youth workers are leaving the sector at an alarming rate because they are on low wages. Youth workers cannot be recruited. I urge the Minister of State to engage with section 39 workers. I am like a broken record on that point. Unless there is investment in front-line community people who work in services and do community work at the front line, the crime rate will go up. Prevention works, as does youth work.

We need to have a conversation about freeing up Garda time. It was welcome to see cautions brought in for adults who are caught in possession of a small amount of cannabis for personal use. We need a broader conversation about legalising cannabis. We need to consider how many of our resources are taken up, including police time that could be diverted to dealing with violent crime or gender-based violence.

We have all spoken about Garda recruitment this year, and the recruitment and retention of Garda members. There needs to be an increase in the supplementary payment to gardaí. There needs to be investment in Templemore. There needs to be further investment for the supplementary pension allowance. Retention of staff is the biggest issue. If we want to reduce crime and make people safer in their communities, we must keep the people working in the communities. The way things are going with wages, people are not being encouraged into, and are not staying in, the sector.

The issue of the regeneration of areas has been raised. Senator Duffy made reference to it. Many regeneration programmes have been successful through working with different Departments, including the Department of housing. In Sligo, for example, there was considerable investment in the regeneration of Cranmore. It has changed things. Morale has changed and there is a better sense of pride in the community. People seem safer. There has been investment in playgrounds, recreational space and lighting. The budget has fallen short, however, and the community centre is going to suffer. The approach should be flipped upside down because the community centre should be the first place invested in and everything should be built around it.

I hope the Minister of State will listen to what people on the ground are saying, those who are working directly with young people and community groups. If there are going to be new local community safety partnerships, I hope that public participation networks, PPNs, community groups and people working directly with young people in addiction services, Garda diversion programmes and youth work services will form a part of the conversation.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming to speak to us today about this issue, which has obviously been in the public psyche. As all the other speakers have already said, people across cities, towns and rural areas are feeling a greater sense of threat. I live on the Carlow-Kilkenny border and rural communities are concerned for their safety, as we have heard from others. We heard that from Senator McCarthy last week, and from Senator Ahearn. We have heard about rural communities and farming communities. This is an issue throughout the country.

I will comment on Senator Ryan's thoughtful contribution about living with fear and the fact that no one deserves to live with fear. That was an important statement about how we address safety for different communities and populations. We need to strengthen the initiatives we have in rural areas to ensure that rural communities feel they are being supported. There is a wider issue around rural exclusion and how rural communities feel and are treated in comparison with those in towns and cities.

An effective response to crime that ensures a swift, fair and community-focused response is essential. We have already discussed that the Garda must be well-resourced, visible and engaged with the communities it serves. This means increased community policing, an increased presence and better training in things such as de-escalation and mental health crisis intervention. We should be stressing our response to crime through increased Garda patrols in areas that are known to have higher levels of crime. We should be focusing on deterrents and working with communities rather than taking a punitive approach.

We should be developing a restorative justice programme where victims and community representatives have the chance to meet offenders so there is an opportunity to repair the harm done in the medium and long terms. As we have heard, however, response alone is not enough. We also need to address the root causes of crime. The root causes to any social issue are important to address if we wish to reduce it. Those causes include things such as addiction, poverty and social exclusion. We need greater co-operation between the Garda, social services and local communities, and must ensure we take an holistic approach that prioritises rehabilitation over punishment, where possible.

Preventing crime starts with creating opportunities. We must invest in things such as education. Senator Cosgrove spoke about the importance of youth services and employment initiatives that steer people away from crime before they enter the justice system. In many cases, once people are in the justice system it is difficult for them to leave it. Research has shown that young people can be vulnerable to things such as peer pressure, socioeconomic factors and childhood trauma, which is a significantly contributing factor to their participation in crime. Addressing these challenges and needs through youth diversion programmes is key. The approach can include community centres, mentorship programmes and affordable housing projects, which are proven ways to reduce crime by fostering stability, inclusion and social cohesion. As we have already heard, things such as well-lit street areas, maintained parks, safe after-school programmes and the regeneration of communities, as Senators Duffy and Cosgrove spoke about, all contribute. These initiatives obviously come at a cost, but it is about an investment in safer and stronger communities. That is a cost I think we can all agree is worthwhile.

In my own area of Carlow and Kilkenny, we have seen the power of local solution in action. The Kilkenny community policing initiative has made strides in strengthening relationships between the Garda and residents, and ensuring that policing is responding to local concerns. In Carlow, we have St. Francis Farm, which is a community-based addiction recovery programme that recognises substance abuse is a social issue, not a criminal one. That is an important point.

We have heard about earlier interventions around gender-based violence. In response, the Garda has been asking for powers to allow for the removal from the home of perpetrators of domestic violence in instances where the threshold for arrest is not met. That was on the agenda in the term of the previous Government and I think it is something we should continue to explore.

Community safety is not just about policing. That is an element of it, but it is not the sole factor. It is about building a fairer society in which everyone has the right to feel safe. As Senator Ryan mentioned eloquently, we need a society where everyone has the right not to live in fear. I believe that in order to respond to crime effectively, we need to focus on preventing it through investment and championing local initiatives, such as the ones I mentioned in Carlow and Kilkenny.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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This is an important topic to discuss. Over the past year or two, I have been lucky enough to visit some violence intervention programmes in Newark in the United States. There are some amazing initiatives elsewhere. We do not need to recreate the wheel when we consider violence intervention, specifically. Ireland can look to Scotland and some of the initiatives in the United States and Sweden around violence intervention.

There is also the whole realm of community safety, which also includes the perception of safety. Some things are not measurable. We cannot always address people's perceptions of whether they are safe or not in a real and tangible way. There are many things we can do in that regard. To speak specifically to the violence intervention piece, there is an initiative in the United States founded by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. I met a guy over there who I have been working with closely to build a strategy. He is an academic and was the founder of the Boston ceasefire project. The evidence behind that project has shown that youth homicides have massively reduced through focused deterrence and group violence intervention initiatives. That does not happen instead of law enforcement but works in parallel with it. The approach is about looking at the group dynamics of violence and a model that intervenes in the moment to address violence in communities.It is a relationship-based model that requires a lot of trust, infrastructure and work but it is something we need to do.

We often react to situations of violence within the community by automatically looking to the police and saying we need more policing or more visibility of police, but even where present, the visibility of police has not reduced crime overall. The guillotine did not reduce crime overall. The public display of punishment and sentences have not decreased crime. The police’s ability to respond to and investigate crime is a necessary and important one but we cannot rely on the police to police us out of poverty and the core drivers of violence. All of the evidence shows that the core drivers of violence are humiliation, shame, not being able to meet one’s economic needs and one’s proximity to violence. Violence, in and of itself, breeds violence. The closer someone is to violence, the more likely that person is to experience violence or to experience the cycles and the revictimisation within that.

There are some models in the United States. There is an amazing one in the health sector. When somebody arrived at a hospital having clearly experienced a violence-related injury, there used to be a “treat and street” model where the person was treated and then allowed leave the hospital. What has now been introduced there is a wider community-based public safety model that involves partnerships with law enforcement and the other arms of justice, social services and the health sector, including doctors. There are trained community violence interventionists to work within the health system and communities in a partnership model to interrupt violence when it is happening. That is not just gang-related violence, although some of the models operated by the people I met were specifically developed during a time of heightened gang violence in the likes of LA. There is a guy called Aqeela Sherrills who negotiated the peace deal between the Crips and the Bloods in 1992. He was an ex-LA gang member but is now seen as a credible messenger and voice. He was someone who has the relatability and credibility within a particular world who went on to build a community-based public safety model that Scotland later relied on as well. It brought Aqeela Sherrills, David Kennedy and others over from the United States. That was at the request of the police in Scotland. I have had some communication with Karyn McCluskey, who oversees the Scottish violence reduction unit. Police in Scotland decided to move away from only seeing violence through the lens of justice to also seeing it through the public health lens.

The World Health Organization has a definition of violence as a public health issue. Treating it as such opens it up for us to deal with it in a much more holistic way. Part of the World Health Organization's definition is that violence is preventable rather than inevitable. It treats violence using a population disease model.

Regarding the men who are engaged in violence, there is a very small percentage of people who cause the most harm in a community when it comes to violence-related issues. However, no one is working with that group in a targeted way. It is only ever a police response, so we do not actually get to interrupt the violence. In the models being tried out in Sweden, Scotland and other places, people try to build and develop relationships within those communities so that, between a policing model, a community model and a health model, there are interventions that happen within the moment. We will never stop violence that happens as a random act, but those countries have systems to interrupt when there is potential for retaliation. A violence intervention team will not enable us to catch everything before it happens, but we can look at all of the other dynamics involved, for example, who else is impacted by the violence and whether we can intervene at all of the different pressure points in order to ensure there is no retaliatory violence within communities.

The umbrella term I find being used is "community violence", which is basically interpersonal violence. It is any type of violence that can happen within a community. Even though the focused deterrence and group violence intervention models had a relationship at one time with the illicit drug trade, they are not specifically set up to be about that trade. They are about the violence intervention piece in and of itself and are used in all types of community violence where there is a dynamic of group violence. Often, people think that, under a particular model, we just engage with the individual committing violence, but it is sometimes about the pressures of the community, an estate or a group in the context of reputation, image control or what the group expects a person to do in a given situation to save face. All these group dynamics can add to and fuel violence.

I am discussing these initiatives because, while I understand the reaction to opt for sentences, more police and so on, that must be done in parallel with other initiatives that are about reducing violence overall, not just responding to violence or a particular instance of violence. It is about looking at violence prevention in the widest possible sense.

I have worked with men who have committed violence. When I was doing theatre of the oppressed and so on in the prison, I brought the current Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, in to do a bit of work. When you map the histories of many of the men who are perpetrating serious violence, you find that they were victims of violence in the first instance. Services, interventions, the education system and so on often did not intervene or were not aware at certain points of whether there was familial violence within the home, for example. People have been completely dehumanised and violence becomes a normalised behaviour. People also feel there is a reward system with violence. We need to be able to speak about that as well as the kind of relationship men have to violence in that regard. The problem is that, when men become more physically men in the world, we do not allow them the victimhood that came before the perpetration of the violence. In a sense, we separate them from their own histories, so we never get to truly and fully explore the shame, humiliation and events that happened to them in their lives and interrupt the violence. We must be a lot more open about how we engage with the topic so that, when we are considering legislative responses, we ensure we invest in communities and set up evidence-based violence intervention initiatives that are much more holistic and look at it as a public health issue and not just a justice one. We have to be willing to work long term to reduce violence, not just respond to it. It is a balancing act to get the two of those elements correct.

In the past few weeks, I have read a number of books by Édouard Louis, a French writer. He discusses violence though novels. A line I found in one of his books - I believe it was History of Violence- was about how, when violence was part of someone's daily rhythm, he or she ended up believing it was normal. If we want to get to the root causes of why violence becomes so normalised in people’s lives, we need to blow the conversation open a little so that we can work in a targeted way and interrupt violence within communities rather than just locking people up or calling for more prisons.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State and thank him for discussing community safety with us. It is a request other Senators and I have made. The people who live, work and visit my community just want to feel safe. This is not an unreasonable expectation to have or an unreasonable request to make. I congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment and Jim O'Callaghan on his.

Trying to improve community safety is something I have been engaged in for a number of decades. I am a founding director of one of the first community policing forums and when a local authority member, I served as chair of the Dublin central joint policing committee. Speaking as a resident of the capital and of Dublin Central, I, like most of the people living there, am quite sick and tired of our part of the city featuring in news headlines because of stabbings, murders, begging, drug dealing and aggressive antisocial behaviour. It is totally unacceptable to us. My constituency has a population of approximately 120,000, but every day the area's population expands to more than 500,000.We do not just have the challenges most communities would have with their indigenous populations, we have many multiples of that because we have so many people coming in and going out of the constituency daily. I commend the gardaí working in Dublin Central - in the Bridewell, Store Street, Fitzgibbon Street and Mountjoy Garda stations, and the new stations opened on O'Connell Street and in the port. Each and every one of the gardaí and all of the staff who work there do a tremendous job. They are engaged, committed and hardworking, and we appreciate their presence. They actively engage with community residents, schools, employers, businesses and all of the tourist attractions we have. No event that takes place in Croke Park, sometimes with 80,000 people attending, could take place without An Garda. The Mater Hospital, Rotunda Hospital and Temple Street are indebted to An Garda. Every one of us who lives in the city is indebted to it. I am glad the new Minister has made a top priority of delivering on the promise in the programme for Government to increase garda recruitment to 5,000. It is important that number is achieved. I would like, in his response, if he could outline to us how the increased recruitment will be achieved.

Gardaí alone cannot make the world safer. The Minister said at the outset that we need to be realistic and accept that crime will always be with us. It is not going to disappear no matter how good the Minister or the gardaí recruited are. I am a strong believer in the small-area policing model. The community policing model is one pioneered in the north inner city going back more than ten years. Unfortunately, due to a lack of resources it fell by the wayside. One of the opportunities we have with increased garda recruitment is to re-establish that community small-area policing model that some of the other Senators have mentioned. Where you have dedicated community gardaí who see the role of a community garda as a career role, you see the kind of investment and commitment needed to make our communities safer. That leads to more community engagement and more support for An Garda. I would be interested to hear what resources will be applied to the community safety partnerships. There have been three community safety partnerships running. One of them is in the north inner city, but I would appreciate if, in his response, the Minister would talk about how the community safety partnerships will be rolled out nationally. I know he indicated that he intends to sign the enacting instrument in March. It is important that those community safety partnerships have community representatives and local authority members. The elected councillors on the ground are elected by their local communities, so they should have a strong role. It is important that the local authority officials - the executive functions - buy into those community safety partnerships. If we have sufficient dedicated gardaí on the ground, they can work and engage with the local authority where there are estate management issues. They can work with youth services, schools and justice youth diversion programmes.

I have heard the bell and will stop talking. I wish the Minister well and look forward to his response.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister. A lot of what I was going to say has been said by other Senators, but An Garda Síochána adheres to the ethos of the first Commissioner, Michael Staines, in policing not by force of arms but on its moral authority as servants of the people. The preservation of this unique and special bond is built on a strong tradition of policing by consent of the communities they serve and protect. That is very important about our police force in Ireland. If I had been standing in this Chamber six months ago, I would have been talking about the constituency of Roscommon-Galway and how we had three public marches and a number of public meetings about a spate of crimes targeting rural areas, the elderly, and unsupported areas where there were no Garda stations. We had a number of crimes in the area between September and November. Thankfully, with the support of our local service and national bodies, An Garda Síochána has made arrests and is prosecuting the people arrested in relation to those crimes. However, it still left a fear within a vast part of our community. That constituency has one of the oldest demographics in the country. Those people liked, and grew up in, a time when you knew your local garda. You would see your local gardaí. They would be in your local sports club at the weekend, or maybe in the pub selling lottery tickets. They were a member of the community. That is not something we experience nowadays. The job of our gardaí has gotten so admin-intensive that their presence on the street is not what it used to be. I know a lot of gardaí. They are members of our local GAA clubs and soccer clubs. You meet them socially. Some of them are our family members. They are very proud of the job they do and they want to do that to the best of their ability, but they are inhibited by the role they have to take nowadays.

I will talk about rural Ireland as opposed to the total model, but the biggest challenge we have is the vast areas the districts are covering at the moment. In my own area it could take two hours to travel from one end to the other. Quite often you might only have one or two cars working on a particular night. This is known. People can make phone calls and have An Garda in one part of the county or district, while they are doing something in another part of the district. This is demoralising for gardaí on the ground not having the resources to be out there trying to protect and serve the people within their districts. Rural staffing is also a major issue. The Minister mentioned earlier the number of admin staff they have, but I know a lot of gardaí from the Roscommon-Galway constituency who are based in other parts of the country and would do anything they could to get back to live in their own district and area. That is something the Minister might look at. It might not necessarily be in their own district, but in a neighbouring district if there is an opportunity to give them a bit of weighting for moving back to those areas. We need to attract our members back to rural Ireland.

Thankfully, rural crime in my area is not as bad as it is in certain other areas of the country. However, going back to the demographic living in these areas, any crime and issue like that creates fear and an element whereby people do not go out to socialise. They stay at home. They do not go out at a certain time of night. Sunday night past, in the town of Ballaghaderreen, County Roscommon, there was a reported mugging and robbery of a handbag at 7 o'clock in the evening, in a busy market town on a Sunday. This town had a large march recently, back in November, looking for additional gardaí on the ground. This happening has lit the fires, and the community is looking for more gardaí on the ground. They are served by a different Garda station during the weekends and the presence and numbers is the biggest barrier.

I compliment the community policing model we have in this country. I ran a few information sessions with our local community policing unit and while it was a great opportunity to bring older people into centres to understand what the community garda did, it also introduced the community gardaí to these people and gave them an opportunity to give addresses and phone numbers to allow the gardaí to go out and meet them. That is something I encourage them to do.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State, and the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, for being here and I wish them both well in their new roles. I also extend my gratitude to the Leader of the House for organising this important discussion, which allows us the opportunity to engage on a matter that affects every citizen in Ireland. It is fair to say that the issue of safety in Ireland is changing. Listening to other Senators, our growing population has brought new challenges and, unfortunately, we have seen a serious and worrying rise in crime.Over the past two weeks alone we have seen two deeply concerning knife attacks in the Dublin city centre area. I am also reminded of the incident on Pearse Street with the American tourist, and all of the arson attacks I mentioned in my home town of Naas, one in particular, Rathasker Stud. These acts of violence have left communities shaken and raised urgent questions about how we can better protect people in public spaces.

Crime is not only happening on our streets, but it is also happening online. Today's newspapers showed the situation of Róisín Gillen from Donegal, who innocently answered a text from what was she thought was Energia, but was a scam text and her savings were cleared out.

Every day, more and more people are falling victim to scam text messages and fraudulent emails. These digital crimes exploit the trust of our citizens, particularly the elderly and the most vulnerable. Many people are simply not used to this new wave of cyber criminals and we have to act swiftly to educate and protect them. The Government, in collaboration with tech companies, must do more to stop these scams at their source.

I want to share a personal story about an organisation I am involved with that underscores the reality of these challenge. The Lighthouse on Pearse Street is a homeless restaurant where we serve up to 500 people a day. We recently faced a terrifying ordeal ourselves. One evening, due to a credible threat to fire bomb the building, we were told we had to move people from the front of the building to the back of the building. The people who were there had to move to the back of the building to ensure their safety. This is not the kind of society that any of us want to live in. Vulnerable people who come in to us are seeking a warm meal, safety and shelter. They should not be in fear of their lives.

This is a stark reminder that community safety extends beyond law enforcement. It is about protecting those who have nowhere else to turn. That is why initiatives, such as one I recently launched, the Drug Related Intimidation and Violence Engagement, Drive, initiative, are essential.

I welcome the Minister for Justice's initiative to encourage more people to join An Garda Síochána. We all have a role to play in supporting law enforcement. However, we must also address the broader issues. Why are people hesitant to join the Garda? As one Senator asked, is it about staffing? Is it about pay? Is it about morale, resources or safety on the job itself? These are critical questions that need answers if we are to build a stronger, more resilient police force.

We cannot afford to be reactive regarding community safety; we must be proactive. We need stronger legislative action on violent crime, better support for victims, and a renewed focus on community policing. We must continue this work until Ireland is a place where everyone can walk their streets and live their lives without fear.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and the Minister of State for coming here today and affording us a valuable opportunity to raise what is a very serious issue. There cannot be anybody here in this Chamber who is not appalled by the level of street crime and knife violence that has been happening right across the country. It is not just in our cities, but it is in our towns and in our villages. Only a couple of days ago there was another stabbing incident in Kerry. What we have to look at is the importance of community involvement in tackling this issue.

I will talk about my home town of Drogheda. If we rewind to between 2017 and 2020, we were visited by horrendous crime. We were in the grips of a drugs feud. We saw violence on the streets like we never saw before. One of the ways we tackled it was that we got an injection of gardaí, which was invaluable. Do not get me wrong; we could still do with more boots on the ground. However, it simply would not have been possible to get to where it is now without that injection. Another major part of it was community involvement.

When we talk about community involvement, it is not only the likes of the community gardaí, which Senator Duffy mentioned and who do incredible work, and the Garda diversion programmes. It is also about the people who are in those communities where it is a small minority who usually take part in this crime. They know them, they know their families, and they know how to tackle the root cause. There was a scoping exercise by Vivian Geiran which provided 70 recommendations on how to improve what was happening in Drogheda and the north east. That gave way to the Drogheda implementation board, which did incredible work to try to bring in some of those recommendations, many of which concerned investing in our local communities and giving the necessary funding in order to make the changes. Of course, that has given way to, as Senator Fitzpatrick said, a local community safety partnership. I urge that this be rolled out across the country, because this is where it gets to the heart of where the problems are. I wish all the best to Gráinne Berrill, another Drogheda woman, who is now the director of the National Office for Community Safety. These are pioneering schemes and we have seen them work in one part of the country. This is where we need to be going in the rest of the country.

Looking towards some of the more welcome statements of leadership we have seen from Ministers in the past week or so, I really do welcome the likes of the stricter laws, the tougher sentences that are being mentioned and the stopping and searching. At my peril, I have to slightly disagree with my colleague, Senator Keogan, when it comes to the likes of weapon amnesties. I will rewind again to when I was a news reporter working in the UK. I was sent to Sunderland, where they were experiencing some very serious street crime. I am of the opinion that we should look at anything that gets these weapons off the streets. They had amnesties there where knives and guns were handed in anonymously and without consequence and they received thousands. As I said, anything that can take them off the streets should be looked at.

When we are talking about knife crime, it is unfortunately not like gun crime in that knives are readily available everywhere. We all have knives in our kitchens. What I would probably focus on is the likes of these zombie knives and the sickles, swords or machetes that are being used in many of these cases, as these are not so readily available. Is it possible to check whether there could be tighter controls on the importing of these and on websites? It is quite possible some are being legitimately bought, but can we tighten up on any sort of law on importing those? This is about trying to get as many as we can off the streets.

I thank the Ministers for their engagement here today. There is so much that we can do within our communities. As in Senator Duffy's area, in my area, we have the likes of desperate dereliction and vacancy, which means that our streets are not safe and they are dark and not well-lit. We just simply do not have enough businesses but that is a matter for another day.

Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to speak. There are many challenges in the Department of Justice. I am really looking forward to seeing the positive changes the Minister can make. My area is Meath West, which includes great towns like Navan, Trim, Enfield and Oldcastle and villages like Kilmessan, Ballivor, Longwood and Rathmolyon. Speaking to the constituents at the doors - believe me, I knocked on a lot of doors over the past year, as I have run in three elections – they are extremely worried about safety within their community. They are worried about walking down their streets, not only at night-time, but during the day too. One man I spoke to was coming out of a bank in Navan where he was jumped on at 3 p.m. in the day and attacked. On a daily basis we see issues of antisocial behaviour on our streets, and it is of massive concern, especially to the people of Meath.

I will move on to businesses and what they face. According to a survey by Retail Excellence Ireland, 20% of retailers experience crime on a daily basis and 41% on a weekly basis. Approximately 82% of this crime is shoplifting. However, what scares me even more is that 60% of these outlets reported abuse of their staff. In fact, one store told me of how one of their staff members was spat at in the face.

Another industry representative body, RGDATA, reported that 90% of its retailers were victims of crime in the previous 12 months. The major issues that I am being informed of are as follows: significant increase in shoplifting and retail crime, particularly high value items; growing aggression and violence towards staff with little fear of consequences with the gardaí, which is very concerning; and notable increases in youth involvement in theft, often in groups influenced by social media trends.Security measures are proving less effective as criminals act openly and without fear. Repeat offenders are a real problem. Many come back on the same day to rob again. I spoke to one small shop in Navan. It must be open around 40 years. It is a fabulous family business. They have always run the shop with one member of staff but now require two. Unfortunately, it is not because they are extra busy selling lots of clothes but to keep each other safe. Another shop owner said that they live in constant fear of their staff being injured. That is a very sad reality.

I hear repeatedly that the issue is not Garda support but the lack of gardaí to deal with these issues and the lack of punishment of offenders. Shops feel they report an issue and the following day they see the person on the street again, practically laughing at them. Seven days ago, the Minister, Deputy O’Callaghan said "I don't want to see our prisons clogged up with people who are in there for ... crimes of shoplifting". If that is the case, what is he going to do about it? Would it help if ASBOs were administered at sergeant level rather than superintendent level? Should there be stiffer fines for people who steal? What about barring orders preventing someone from being able to re-enter a store? Why not make them pay for what they have stolen? Should people who regularly offend only be allowed free legal aid on, say, three court appearances and not the sky is the limit?

My daughter was eight when she was pushed to the ground when out shopping for her first little handbag. These were teenage boys who thought it was hilarious to push one person against the other. Excuse me-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Take your time.

Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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These were teenage boys who thought it was hilarious to push one person against another like dominoes with the last person pushing my daughter to the ground. Thankfully, she was not injured physically but it did take a while to get her back out shopping again. I reported it to the centre and the response was to say it was sorry it had happened and there was nothing it could do because they would just come back the next day. Then I reported it to the Garda. The individual garda was very helpful but also advised there was no point in brining it back again because it could not be brought further, so we just sucked it up like everyone in our community does every day. People are worried about getting out of their cars at supermarkets. If you cannot shop in peace without harassment, what does the future hold?

Another issue is people’s fear of being sued for defamation if they approach someone suspected of having stolen goods from the premises. Between 2009 to 2022, Ireland had more defamation cases than the UK, a jurisdiction with 12 times Ireland’s population. Businesses are playing their part and now the Department of Justice needs to play its part. What plans are there to protect businesses and their employees from the explosion of retail crime? How can we help communities ravaged by antisocial behaviour? When will Meath get more gardaí? I do not mean gardaí to fill retirements but an increase.

I note the Minister’s comment that once the Defamation (Amendment) Bill 2024 is enacted "the provisions of the Bill dealing with retail defamation will provide for balancing of the rights of retailers and consumers, promote good practice among retailers and allow retailers to deal effectively with unwarranted claims". I urge the Minister to stop these cases at source so they do not cause retailers thousands in legal fees. Were we to work out how many defamation cases there are in Ireland by cost, it would add up to about €70 million. Small businesses just cannot afford that.

Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister of State. Being from County Limerick, I am sure he will agree with me it is a place of strong communities and hard-working families with a proud heritage, but too many people, whether in towns or rural areas, do not feel safe. Our gardaí are stretched beyond capacity. The reduction in Garda numbers, station closures and the lack of visible community policing are failing the people of County Limerick. Nor is this only about policing. Tackling crime means addressing its root causes, namely, poverty, lack of opportunity and addiction. We need stronger youth diversion programmes. I was delighted to get an invitation from the Minister of State's office to the launch in Rathkeale of a new diversion programme. We need investment in our communities. Without these measures we are just putting plasters on deep wounds. I call on the Government to increase Garda recruitment and retention. We need a properly resourced Garda force with the numbers and support to do its job effectively. The Government must restore community policing. A visible Garda presence is one of the strongest crime deterrents. It should address drug-related crime head on. That not only means policing but also proper funding for addiction and rehabilitation services. We must break the cycle of addiction and crime. There must be investment in community supports. Safer communities are built on opportunities. We need more youth services, mental health services and opportunities to ensure young people in Limerick county have a future beyond crime or antisocial behaviour. Tackling rural crime needs real solutions. Farm thefts, break-ins and attacks on elderly residents in rural areas are causing fear across County Limerick. A stronger Garda presence with better rural CCTV schemes and tougher action against repeat offenders are essential.

I will make a few interesting points, of which I am sure the Minister of State will be aware but I will say them for the benefit of everyone else. County Limerick has a population of 107,000 and a landmass of 2,735 sq. km and 22 Garda stations, two of which are 24-hour. The other 20 Garda stations are open for an average of 16 hours a week. If there are two gardaí in those stations and they are called out to an accident on the N21 or the N69, for example, that Garda station is closed. There are no gardaí. Public safety is not just a political issue. It is a fundamental right. The people of County Limerick and more widely should not have to live in fear. They deserve leadership that listens, acts and delivers.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is very welcome. I thank him for being here. I know what a strong advocate he is. He first introduced me to the Fianna Fáil Party when he was holding a meeting on rural crime. It gives me a great opportunity to speak about keeping communities safe while also focusing on the rural issues. No different to Senator Scahill, one of the biggest issues in east Galway is our strategic location. We are on the bridge of the Shannon. Portumna is on the bridge, so our entry point is on the bridge but the other entry to the constituency is through Banagher and the other exit point is at Killaloe. We are surrounded by the Shannon but none of the bridge crossings have CCTV because Galway County Council cannot agree who will take ownership or who will man it and what the position is regarding GDPR. It is past time for GDPR and sharing dual access between the local authority and An Garda Síochána to be addressed. For too long, we have been ravaged by the gangs which come down the motorways, breaching Ballinasloe or who come through Gort if they are coming from Cork. If they are coming from the east, they will come in at Nenagh. They come across, circle and come out again. They will never be glimpsed. The population in the south of east Galway is around 40,000 but the Garda station, which is opened 24-7, is based in Gort. It is 40 minutes away from the bridge at Portumna, 50 minutes from the bridge at Banagher and 30 minutes from Killaloe. If a car is out on a night when the four gardaí are based in Gort, there is no second car because the Garda station cannot be left unmanned. I will not say it for the purpose of anyone who might benefit, but there will be a number of nights in any given week where there is no second Garda station open in the constituency. Not only are CCTV cameras needed but also more gardaí and not just replacing those who are retired. They need more high-powered vehicles so they can do their jobs.

On youth and intervention, there is a fantastic programme called Planet Youth in Galway. It is all about early intervention around drinking and substance abuse.It has been rolled out by the HSE in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. We need to share more of the information coming back from schools in order that we can work collaboratively with An Garda Síochána, the HSE, teachers, parents and young people on early intervention. If there is early intervention in regard to drugs and alcohol use, we will prevent addiction and the cost of rehabilitation further along the line. Early intervention initiatives, including the Planet Youth programme, must be stepped up and stood out. The information must be shared more with parents, who, as well as teachers, need to have a clear understanding of what percentage of children are engaging in substance abuse.

In 2017 or 2018, we opened a new regional Garda station in Murrough, where people can train to use guns and there is also a kennel. We have never put a dog in the kennel. The drug detection dog has never landed in Galway. We borrow the dog from Cork when we need to do a raid. The last dog the gardaí got really could not be trained. We still, after eight years, have not achieved our purpose of having a detection dog in the west of Ireland. We borrow the dog to do a raid. I know it sounds farcical. It goes back to early intervention. If we had a drug detection dog in Galway, we could go into the schools, do the talks and do the early detections. The dog could be walked up and down when people are queuing to go into whatever pub or disco it might be in Galway. It could be used as a deterrent, not as a means of trying to prosecute. I was really delighted to see the reference in the programme for Government to training more dogs. I would like to see a dog arrive in the west of Ireland.

We need an understanding as to what is the number of detections of heroin in Galway city. We do not have a statistic on that at this time.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to discuss this all-important issue. As he is aware, I live in the centre of Limerick city. I have seen a lot of things happening in the city centre over the years. In December 2023, the Department of Justice and the local gardaí in Henry Street set up Operation Táirge, whereby they worked with businesses to combat retail crime. That type of crime has been raised by many people in the Chamber. It was found at the time that pilfering and shoplifting cost retailers €1.62 million each year. People working in businesses need to feel safe from this type of criminality. Much has been done to date, including the launch last year of the use by gardaí of bodycams and new cars with AI technology that can detect a lot of what is going on down the road. We need an expansion of the use of cameras and CCTV. The issue of the GDPR has been raised but that is something behind which many places are hiding.

Limerick city centre is no different from any other city centre in that there is a lot of on-street begging and large numbers of people going down alleyways to deal or shoot up drugs. Many of the streets off the main street become areas where people congregate to deal drugs, especially if there are alleyways or any set-back areas behind houses. We need more gardaí on our streets to tackle this issue. While the gardaí in Limerick have been very successful in the number of convictions they have secured, we still need more gardaí to support that effort. Reference was made to gardaí retiring. I welcome the increase in the number of Garda recruits going to Templemore and the number of gardaí coming out the other end. However, it is about retention and making sure gardaí stay in their jobs. Location was raised by a previous speaker. Sometimes, people want to move close to their home. We need to look at ways of incentivising gardaí and keeping them on our streets. We must ensure they are able to carry out their job.

I pay tribute to the gardaí in Limerick, led by Chief Superintendent Smart, including the various superintendents, inspectors and sergeants. They do an absolutely fantastic job but they are sometimes stretched to the limit between having to go to court, take prisoners on a transfer run or whatever it might be. Sometimes, that means there are not enough gardaí on the street. When a business owner rings the Garda station because somebody has attempted to rob the premises or has robbed it, or people contact gardaí because they have witnessed a drug deal going on in the street, there is sometimes no garda to respond to those calls. While consideration is being given to the provision of an extra Garda station for Limerick in Castletroy, we need to increase Garda numbers to support the existing structure as well as the new structure that is to come on stream.

There have been many successful programmes such as the youth diversion programme. I am chairperson of a community centre in one of the most socioeconomically deprived areas in Limerick. On a daily basis, a number of issues are brought to us whereby people have been subject to criminality or have witnessed things going on in their community that make them very afraid. People have the right not only to feel safe in the city centre and in whatever business they enter but also in their own home and locality. We must go back to having more community gardaí on the street. I remember a time in Ballinacurra Weston, which is the area in which I am involved, when gardaí used to be out playing soccer with local youths on the green. That created a relationship between the youths and the gardaí. We need to look at ways of incentivising initiatives to create a relationship between youths and the Garda. It does not matter where people are from; anybody could end up being targeted or brought into a gang. Having more community gardaí on our streets will be to the benefit of communities.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I thank the Minister of State for joining us for the second time today. It is great to have the opportunity to discuss these matters.

I raise the issue of safety in Cork city. The allocation of gardaí to the city is nowhere near enough compared with the trends in population growth. I am aware that people in other cities have the same view regarding their location. We need more interconnectedness between the work of the Department of Justice and other Departments in regard to crime and safety. For example, if people cannot get a bus home at the end of the night or the service is unreliable, they are at more risk. Predators will take advantage of that situation. The unreliability of public transport certainly is an issue in Cork and it is contributing to people not feeling safe and not going out. I meet people all the time in Cork who say they no longer bother going into town. They stick to the suburbs because they do not feel safe in the city. Cork is a wonderful city with wonderful nightlife and wonderful restaurant options. Businesses must be supported in this. We hear of business owners suffering from having to close their doors if there is crime on the street that is not being tackled.

A welcome development in Cork city is the provision of a mobile Garda station. It is, in essence, a van that travels around and functions as a Garda station. It has been very effective. That initiative needs to be promoted more. When people see more visibility in terms of Garda presence, they feel safer. It is very unfortunate that we have a number of Garda stations in Cork that are not open, including Bishopstown, Ballincollig and Douglas. We have fine buildings that are, in effect, closed most of the time. People do not know where to go if they need a garda.

The current Garda recruitment drive is very welcome. Pay and conditions for gardaí must be adequate.On an average garda salary nowadays, it would be very difficult to purchase a home in this country. Many gardaí emigrate, as do teachers and others in key worker professions. Part of the recruitment also needs to involve a gender perspective. We need to get more women into the Garda. We need to get more diversity in terms of ethnicity because people need to be able to see themselves reflected in the Garda and to feel comfortable reporting a crime.

It was encouraging to hear the Minister speaking about addiction and the need for more of a focus on supporting people with addictions outside prisons. We all agree that crime needs to have consequences but many people living in addiction are already in the prison of their own addiction cycle, which they cannot escape. That applies to drugs, alcohol, gambling and whatever else the addiction may be. It would be transformative if we were to have a more compassionate and healthcare-led approach to addiction. We in Ireland are behind the curve. This is where justice needs to link with education. Even from a young age, we need to educate people about what addiction means as a healthcare issue.

Other Senators, particularly the women Senators, have spoken eloquently about women's safety and domestic violence. I can safely say that as a woman, I have never felt less safe in this country. I felt more safe in my 20s than I do in my 30s. I do not think that is to do with the fact I am a little more aware and worldly now. It is because we hear, day in and day out, about women being attacked and murdered in their own homes. Femicide is an epidemic in this country and we absolutely need to get a grip on it. The issue is connected to the housing crisis. Many women do not have refuges to go to and are trapped in situations because they need to keep a roof over their heads or over their children's heads. That is compounding the issue. Things are interconnected.

Another issue under the brief of the Minister, and one I raised in the House last week, is sex for rent. Unfortunately, people are trying to take advantage of the housing crisis by propositioning people to provide sex in lieu of paying rent. It is abhorrent. We hear that one in 20 female students has seen such an advertisement or has been directly propositioned. There is no stand-alone law outlawing it at the moment. There are laws around intimidation and coercion in this country. The Minister has said he is working with the Attorney General on the matter and we would greatly appreciate an update on that work.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is welcome. I thank him for facilitating this important debate on community safety. Throughout the recent general, local and mayoral elections I canvassed in, people voiced their deep concerns about Garda visibility. Whether I was speaking to young families, elderly residents living alone or business owners in city centres, the message was clear: people want more visible policing in order to feel safe and supported in their communities.

I will take this opportunity to highlight to the Minister of State two critical issues for us in Limerick. With a population exceeding 18,000, there have long been calls from residents for a Garda station at Castletroy in the east of Limerick city. It is one of Limerick's fastest growing suburbs and a major economic hub. It is home to the National Technology Park, the Annacotty Business Park, a thriving retail and hospitality sector, multiple primary and secondary schools and the University of Limerick, all of which draw in further thousands of people daily. It is a truly vibrant and growing area. In order to support this rapid population expansion and the projected continued growth in the area, we need a dedicated and fully resourced Garda station at Castletroy. I take this opportunity to raise the issue with the Minister of State.

I will also raise with the Minister of State the concerns of Limerick city centre residents and businesses. Limerick city is undergoing an exciting urban renewal with significant investment in buildings and public realm improvements. Significant efforts are being made by our locally elected councillors, our executive, the workers at Limerick City and County Council, our new mayor and a host of other stakeholders in civil society, including resident groups, Tidy Towns groups, cycling groups and pedestrian groups. They are all focused on improving the liveability of our fabulous city centre. Like many urban centres around this country, there has been an increase in antisocial behaviour, open drug taking and drug dealing. It is being done by a small minority of people but in very public spaces. It draws fear, frustration and intimidation from passers-by. This is threatening the positive work being done by very many people. Many of my colleagues have today expressed the need for compassion to be at the centre of dealing with those struggling with complex issues and addiction, which I understand. Equally, however, there can be no tolerance for aggression of intimidation in our city streets.

I commend the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, for their no-nonsense, straight-talking approach to tackling crime since taking up office. Indeed, the clear stance taken by the Minister following recent violent and fatal incidents in Dublin sent an important message, but that message must be matched with action. We need increased Garda numbers and community policing in our urban centres and streets. We must ensure that growing residential areas, such as Castletroy, have the policing infrastructure required to meet their growing needs. We must recognise that policing alone cannot solve these challenges. I am pleased to highlight for the Minister of State and the Minister an innovative programme being piloted in Limerick city. The community access support team, CAST, is a partnership between the Garda at Henry Street and the mental health services at HSE Mid-West to put gardaí and mental health nurses into a squad car, so that after an emergency call is triaged and a response is dispatched, there is both a mental health response and a Garda response in the vehicle to deal with whatever is unfolding when they arrive at a situation. I commend the officers in Limerick who brought forward the initiative. I wish them well in their important work with CAST. We look forward to the results after the trial period. I believe we will learn a lot and I hope it will be an example that we can roll out to the rest of the country.

My colleague, Senator O'Loughlin, highlighted the need for an expanded Judiciary. My colleague, Senator Clifford-Lee, and many other Senators in the Chamber highlighted the need for increased refuge spaces for women and children. I must highlight the urgent need for parallel investment in prison spaces. We need dedicated facilities to meet our growing population numbers and the growing incidence of crime unfortunately associated with that. We need increased investment in youth diversion strategies and increased supports for drug and alcohol addiction. I look forward to the Minister of State's response.

Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
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As this is my maiden contribution on justice, I welcome the opportunity to raise many of the issues that have been raised with me in my capacity as a public representative, first on Wexford County Council and now in this Chamber. I appreciate the opportunity.

I will focus my contribution specifically on the question of rural crime. I will support some of the calls that have been made by the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, for a designated rural crime unit in the Garda. Some of the contributions that have been made this evening have touched on many of the issues that I would also like to highlight. I want to focus specifically on four key points. The first relates to rural crime. Many people may not be aware that criminal gangs are targeting farmers specifically to engage in the theft of global positioning system, GPS, units. The Garda suggests they are being taken to eastern Europe. Many farmers are finding that because the tractors and machinery they are using to sow their lands in the tillage season have high-powered GPS units within them, they are being targeted for theft.I encourage any new rural crime unit to pay specific attention to that, as well as the theft of livestock.

I also highlight the need for An Garda Síochána, the Department of Justice and the Minister of State to tackle some of the unexplained sources of wealth that exist in rural Ireland. Everyone is aware of situations where individuals are living far beyond their stated means. While many ideas and questions can be raised as to the source of these funds and income, we need a designated, targeted campaign and operation by An Garda Síochána, specifically in our rural villages, to tackle this issue head-on. It is an issue that has been allowed to fester in rural Ireland for some years now. It needs to be faced head-on. I encourage the Minister of State to tackle this issue in conjunction with the many members of An Garda Síochána who play an excellent role, day in day out, in ensuring the peace of our rural communities.

I also raise the issue of antisocial behaviour in our rural towns and villages. There are three main towns in my constituency of Wexford - Enniscorthy, Wexford town and New Ross. Unfortunately, it has now become a semi-accepted norm that instances of antisocial behaviour, especially in the early hours of the morning at weekends, have become commonplace. While some of these issues will always be with us - I am not naive enough to suggest otherwise - I am strongly of the view that a visible community policing effort to tackle antisocial behaviour, especially at the weekends, should be a priority for the Department in this coming term.

I am somebody who is very proud to be from Wexford. I am sure everybody, including all our guests who have joined us, will agree that the Wexford countryside is the most beautiful in all of Ireland but, unfortunately, there are those who take it upon themselves to litter, discard their rubbish or engage in fly-tipping. If we want to get serious about rural crime, we also need to get serious about the issue of littering. At present, if somebody decides to litter, the minimum fine he or she will get is €75. On conviction in court, it can be increased to €150, with a further increase to €3,000 at the discretion of the judge. I practise as a solicitor. The cold reality of this is that the current scale of the fines system is not sufficient to act as a deterrent to repeat fly-tipping offenders. I encourage the Minister of State to change the legislation in order to increase the number of fines we have in this area.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the guests of Deputy Shay Brennan to the Gallery. I hope they enjoy their visit.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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The Minister of State is very welcome to the House. Senator Gallagher spoke about the need for more prisons and more community service during the Order of Business. I have done work over the past four and a half years in prisons, with members of the Traveller community and others. I say, as would people who are in prison, that we do not need more prisons. What we need is more community development and investment in our communities. I have heard a lot about law and order over the past two weeks in these Houses. For me, it is about investing in people. In 2008 and 2009, when the recession hit the country, the most vulnerable communities were hit the worst. These were places such as Ballyfermot, Clondalkin, Crumlin and rural parts of Ireland. CCTV footage does not stop crime. Gardaí do not stop crime. As Senator Ruane said, it is about poverty. We cannot police our way out of poverty.

The Minister of State is here in respect of justice, but we need a bigger conversation around health and access to health services for people from marginalised communities, in addition to services around addiction and rehabilitation. Drug addicts were mentioned in the debate. A person addicted to drugs can absolutely destroy a family and the community around him or her. I see that with members of my own family, unfortunately. Poverty is a vicious circle. The halting sites in this country all have big, massive walls and very run-down ramps and gates. It is like people are living in prison. If people are surrounded by walls, are part of a run-down community that is not looked after by local authorities - even in wider Ballyfermot and putting halting sites aside - are treated like prisoners and are let live like prisoners, they may begin to behave like they are in a prison.

I do not want to repeat what anybody in the House has already said, but it is not all the responsibility of the justice Department. Again, we need better wraparound mental health supports in this country, especially for young men, but for young women as well. We need people to have full employment. We talk about Ireland never being as great with employment, but more than 80% of members of the Traveller community are still unemployed. In other parts of Ireland as well, unemployment is still a big issue. We all have access to school but it is unfortunate we do not see people from some communities being successful within the education system.

Over the past two years, we have seen an increase in danger within Ireland when it comes to violence on the streets against people from ethnic minority groups and migrants. We hear the word "foreigners" being used. Something Senator Ruane said in the previous Seanad still strikes me today; these are "people with nothing fighting for nothing." This comes from the Government. While communities are looking, and starving really, for accommodation, employment, equality of education and equality of healthcare in this country, we are putting one community against the other. That suits the Government, unfortunately, but it does not suit communities. As Senator Ruane said in the previous Seanad, again, "it is people with nothing fighting for nothing."

I heard a Senator reference policing by consent. I have seen many cases where it was not policing by consent. It is where gardaí kick down a door at 5 o'clock in the morning, just go in, vanish through a house and terrorise the people in those houses. Again, that is not consent policing. Some communities are absolutely overpoliced. We have to have a bigger conversation on keeping communities safe. The only way we will keep all communities safe is by dealing with poverty and some of the crises in this country.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the Chamber and wish him the very best in his new role. He will bring great energy and ambition to it, and will achieve great things.

It is fair to say we have heard a very informed and well-rounded debate on the issue of crime. The overwhelming view right across the political divide is that the solution to crime is not one-dimensional but multifaceted. While the Department of Justice has to ultimately do the heavy lifting, there are many other components to this, including social services intervention, community work, housing, poverty and deprivation. All those things needs to be looked at in the round.One of the things we probably do not mention enough regarding crime and that has really come to the fore in recent weeks is corporate responsibility. We have seen a huge failing in this regard over recent weeks in the aftermath of the storm of 24 January. Across the country, there are still 3,500 people without phone coverage and broadband. Many of these people are in the midlands, north west and west and many are elderly and live in isolated communities. They are denied access to their panic alarms now because they do not have phone access.

I have been contacted by three elderly people living in the Ballinalee area, all in their 90s, who have been without full coverage since the storm and who have been told it could be two weeks before their phone coverage is returned. They are feeling isolated. They are not sleeping and are worrying, and they are suffering from the consequences of what is nothing short of absolute corporate greed. It is a huge failing on the part of the responsible companies, predominantly Eir, which provides the network and the cables across the country that service the phones. I am aware that many other phone operators depend on Eir, but ultimately the responsibility rests with it. What it is doing to the affected communities is nothing short of reprehensible. There are elderly people who cannot sleep at night and who feel isolated. They turn on the local radio for updates. I have listened to Shannonside FM for the past few mornings and noted that people are consistently ringing in on behalf of elderly parents and grandparents, irate that their phones have not been reconnected five weeks after the storm.

In Lanesborough, where I am from, there is a woman in her 80s living on a very isolated road whose phone is still not working. I believe her house is the only one on the road. Her daughter was told that it will be another three weeks before she has her phone line back. It is unforgivable that a corporate company that makes millions in this country can be allowed to continue like this and not provide the service. The most galling and telling aspect was that the three elderly residents in Ballinalee got a dispatch from the phone company today not offering an apology or stating it would be around next week to fix the phones but telling them their monthly bills were due – bills for a service they have not had for the past four weeks.

This company is failing us. Elderly people depend on panic alarms, which are their connection with the outside world. I appeal to the Minister of State to call out Eir and the phone companies on this and ask them without delay to rectify the situation. The affected people are elderly and are not able to resort to social media or post on Instagram or Facebook to criticise the companies. Invariably, these are the people in their 90s who did the heavy lifting, built this country and provided the building blocks for one of the most progressive, modern countries in Europe, which we now have. We have a country of untold wealth thanks to the efforts and toil of these people. We are now failing them as legislators and as a society. Ultimately, I am most aggrieved over how they are being treated by Eir and the phone companies. I ask the Minister of State to comment on this personally, make a strong statement and let Eir know we are deeply unhappy with its position on this and that how it is treating the elderly people is unforgivable.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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When discussing community safety, we instantly think of Garda numbers. It is well documented that the number of gardaí has declined while our population has increased. I acknowledge that there are recruitment drives to try to increase the number but we know that over 1,600 gardaí are due to retire in the next five years. Efforts have to be made to ensure they will be replaced, to address the issues making gardaí leave the force long before they reach retirement age, and to build up the number of gardaí and Garda capacity. Since the number of gardaí is insufficient, they are stretched too thinly. A friend of mine remarked recently that she had seen the squad car in her town. Usually, gardaí are not seen in the town. It is a large town, not just a village. The gardaí are moving around from town to town, just showing their faces, but that is not sufficient. We need to make sure there is a presence in every town and village.

When I was growing up, there was at least one garda, but usually two or three, in every village, and many more in each of the towns. Maybe that was just because Cavan is a Border town - I do not know - but all the gardaí knew everybody and everybody knew them. We need to get back to community policing. As many have said before me, it is not just about feet on the beat; it is about investing in our communities. After the economic downturn there were quite severe cuts to our community services, particularly our mental health, youth and addiction services, and these cuts have had a detrimental effect on many of our communities.

I taught in a DEIS school for many years. It was easy to identify the families who needed support because there is intergenerational poverty, intergenerational unemployment and addiction problems. If there were investment in those families and their communities, it would pay dividends in the end because it would prevent many individuals from ending up in our prisons.

I remember teaching history, or trying to teach it, to a group of second-year pupils, aged 13 or 14. I was talking to them about a programme that had been on the night before and said that, since it had been on so late, they would have been in bed and would not have seen it. One of the students asked me what time it had been on and I said 10.30 p.m. He said he had been out running around the street at that time. I asked him where his parents had been such that they had not ensured he was in bed and he said they had been in the pub. That young man is now dead. He died of a drug overdose. If former pupils are listening to me now, they will not know what former student I am talking about because several have lost their lives to accidental drug overdoses. Those are people who came from families in which there was intergenerational poverty and unemployment and who needed support. We need to invest in our communities and deprived areas so we can prevent crime. We are not going to prevent all crime but we can certainly prevent a certain amount of it.

I engaged recently with the National Youth Council of Ireland, which has said that the funding it gets is very restrictive. It does not get multi-annual funding so it is very hard for it to plan. There are some excellent projects but the council is limited in what it can do because it cannot expand its services. There is no funding for staff. We need to address that and ensure substantial funding is put into all community services, youth services, addiction services and mental health services.

Some Senators have called for an increase in the number of prison places. I remember engaging with the Prison Service when I was a member of the disability committee during the term of the last Dáil. There is a large number of people in our Prison Service who should not be there. I am not saying they have been wrongfully convicted or anything – they are in prison because they have committed crimes – but they may have mental health issues or be autistic. In many cases, they will have committed a crime and ended up in prison because they did not get the community support they required. Had they got it, it is quite possible that they would have gone on to live different lives. Therefore, we need to ensure the required community supports and services are made available to support people with mental health and addiction issues, particularly our youth.

Niall Collins (Limerick County, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the Senators for their input this evening. It was very interesting to listen to the contributions. All of us, being practising public representatives, citizens and people living in our own communities, have a vested interest in ensuring community safety is key and paramount. We need only look at the programme for Government for the next five years, which has been agreed to and published and is available for everybody to read, to see very extensive sections on justice, policing, crime, rehabilitation and prisons. They refer to the whole range of functions right across the Department of justice, home affairs and migration, which is also a huge issue and means a huge undertaking within the Department.

Let me put this matter into context. I have said we are all public representatives. We are all right in advocating for our own communities and seeking more resources and public services for them. That is our job as public representatives. With regard to policing, in particular, about seven or eight years ago the Houses of the Oireachtas were convulsed for a number of years – some Senators may recall it – regarding various very challenging issues within An Garda Síochána. You could call them scandals or issues. There were several of them and many of them were raised on the floors of the Seanad and the Dáil. They took up a lot of the time of the Oireachtas and of the then Government. One of the criticisms at the time was that there was political policing in Ireland and that the Government was too close to An Garda Síochána.One of the outcomes that came out of that period was the establishment of the independent Policing Authority. To the best of my knowledge, that was supported by pretty much everybody across the Houses of the Oireachtas. The independent Policing Authority was set up on a statutory basis and put An Garda Síochána at arm's length from the Government. Prior to that, when people were promoted to the rank of superintendent - I am not sure if this also applied to the rank of inspector - the decision had to go before the Cabinet. The view was that the Government of the day was too close to the Garda Commissioner of the day and that they were not as detached as they should be and as was seen in successful policing models elsewhere.

The point I am making is that we have an independent Policing Authority that is at arm's length from the Government and other public representatives. Of course, we all deal with local members of An Garda Síochána through our JPCs, which are now to be called community safety partnerships and will have public representatives on them, but the independent operation of An Garda Síochána is solely the function of the Garda Commissioner and his team. They have independence in how they apply Garda resources. We give them laws, powers, money and resources, and it is then up to them. They produce an annual policing plan. Each local Garda division also produces an annual policing plan. It all feeds into that. While we all want more members of An Garda Síochána in our own divisions and districts and we all rightly advocate for that, we do not sit over in Government Buildings and tell the Garda Commissioner where to put gardaí. That is his job.

Obviously, I did not hear the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, speak when he was in the Chamber, as I have come to relieve him. As he has stated publicly, though, we agreed when we were appointed to this Department that we wanted to see more Garda visibility in our communities and on our streets up and down the country. We want to see gardaí in every type of community setting, whether urban or rural. The Minister has impressed his desire and view upon the Garda Commissioner. At the end of the day, it is up to the Commissioner to try to do his job to the best of his ability, but it is fair to say that he will take on board the view that was expressed.

This leads on to recruitment. We have 14,100 gardaí. It is stated definitively within the programme for Government that we want to recruit an additional 5,000 over the lifetime of this Government. If we can get to that, it will be a great measure of success. There is a substantial job of work to do to get to that point. We have challenges. There is the challenge of people who decide they want to change careers, which many do. Some people do not look at careers as being life-long now. We have pushed the entry age up to 49 years, so a 49-year-old can now apply to An Garda Síochána. We have also pushed the retirement age up to 62. That could go further again. We are pushing recruitment. As Senators are aware, a recruitment campaign is ongoing. I encourage all public representatives in the Houses to share that on their social media profiles. The closing date is Thursday of this week. People can apply online. It is a fantastic career. I encourage people who are interested to look at it.

Regarding the recruits coming out of the Garda Training College at Templemore, everyone is advocating for more of them to come to each of our respective Garda divisions. I am conscious that some of the Senators who have spoken are rural while others are urban, living on the east coast or in Dublin in particular. It is a fact that the vast majority of the recruits that have been coming out of Templemore from the past number of batches have been coming to the greater Dublin area and the wider east coast, which is where the greater population is. However, this is not to say that other areas have not seen an increase. They have. In my own area of Limerick, there were 554 gardaí in 2015. At the end of 2024, there were 582. The number of vehicles in the Limerick Garda division in 2015 was 92. That number is now 132, which is a significant increase. There have been significant increases in my own division. I do not have the numbers for each of the divisions around the country, but Senators will be aware that the Department of Justice and An Garda Síochána account for some of the largest budget subheads in the State.

I will pick up on some other matters that were mentioned. All of the contributions are being watched in the back offices of the Department of Justice. People will take note of everything that was said, feeding into the work we do.

The programme for Government has a number of sections on the modernisation and improvement of our Courts Service. That is a continuous job of work. I refer particularly to our family law courts. Many Senators mentioned family law issues, delays in that regard and how they impact on families, particularly women. It is right that issues like the inability to enforce court-ordered maintenance payments, which has a severe impact on people, are mentioned in some of the strategies.

The youth justice strategy and youth diversion programmes do important work. It is about intervening with young people, teenagers in particular, who are identified as potentially going down the wrong path in life and working with them to steer them back onto the right path and take them away from criminality. I will visit such a programme in my own constituency on Thursday. There are many more of them around the country and they do fabulous work. There will be a budget of approximately €33 million for youth diversion this year. That is a significant amount of money.

Regarding JPCs, most people in the House would have sat on one as a local authority member, as I did, or even as an Oireachtas Member. These are now being superseded by community safety committees, which will have an expanded role and membership. As Senator Fitzpatrick mentioned, they will rightly have public representatives on them, but there will also be people from the HSE, Tusla and other State agencies, such as the Probation Service. These are people who have front-line experience and a lot to offer. Community groups will also play a major part, and offering them an opportunity be part of those forums is important. Each of the local authorities is conducting an exercise to seek expressions of interest from people to act as the chairperson of those new committees.

I am stuck on names because we are all new here. Senator Scahill mentioned policing by consent. The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, has rightly mentioned that in many of his early interviews since taking up the role of Minister for Justice. We are really lucky that there is a fantastic working relationship between the vast majority of the people of Ireland and An Garda Síochána. Long may that last. The Senator mentioned something I have heard a number of times, that is, paperwork and administration in the Garda. I hear the Senator when he says that but in the era we are living in, if proper records are not kept, it becomes an issue. I often say that when people are giving out about hospital management and saying that the hospitals are stacked with middle management, pen pushers and paper pushers. If someone goes into an organisation and there is no record of the person or of an event relating to that person, it raises questions about why there is no such record.I know it myself from sitting on the joint policing committee in Limerick, where there would be the data analyst from the Garda division making a presentation to us, as she used to do. Statistics and data are very important in affording and allowing members of An Garda Síochána to develop and devise their policing strategies and policing plans. I know paperwork can be the enemy, but it also can be your friend, and, unfortunately, it is quite necessary.

Much has been said about Garda stations. About ten years ago, there were huge debates in both Houses of the Oireachtas on rural Garda stations because the closure of Garda stations was the Government policy at the time. Many people, including me, did not agree with that. However, much investment is now going into new Garda stations. I can point to my own constituency where, in the town of Newcastle West, the sod was turned recently on the construction of a new, fantastic Garda station. It will be a substantial Garda station to serve the west Limerick community. I note Senator Dee Ryan has raised and campaigned on the much-needed issue of a new Garda station on the east side of Limerick city, with the rapidly expanding population in the Castletroy-Monaleen area. It is badly needed and we will support it in government. The OPW has been tasked with finding, identifying and acquiring a suitable site to do it, and progressing it.

I will mention a few of the other issues. I do not know what to say to my colleague, Senator Rabbitte, about the drug dog for Galway. Perhaps she should have a word with the chief and ask him where that is going. She mentioned quite rightly the number of heroin detections in Galway city. I used to find the JPC was terribly helpful with that, and the new community safety committees will have a huge role in that.

The issue of antisocial behaviour in our urban settings was raised by Senator Mary Fitzpatrick and other speakers. It is a big challenge. We have it in all the big urban areas of Cork, Dublin, Limerick and Galway, where people are begging and carrying on in an antisocial behaviour manner and fashion. It comes back to gardaí being visible on the street and enforcing and rolling out a plan for it. We all speak from the experiences of our own communities. Superintendent Andrew Lacey in Limerick has put a lot of work into that in Limerick city centre. I am told it is bearing results. It is something that needs to be worked on day by day and you need the manpower to do it. That, again, falls back to the Garda recruitment campaign, which is under way to try to encourage people in.

People mentioned an expanded Judiciary. It is within the programme for Government to appoint more judges. We have to appoint more family law judges. We need more judges in the appeal courts to try to speed up the hearing of cases and the processing of cases because, as we all know, justice delayed is justice denied. We need to ensure we have a unit within the courts related to planning law. As we know, there are many issues. That was one of the outworkings of the new planning Bill, which was enacted just before the general election.

Rural crime was mentioned in relation to the IFA. There is a commitment in the programme for Government, as Senators will note, to devise, in conjunction with An Garda Síochána, a national rural safety strategy. That will put another added focus on the issue of rural crime.

Senator Cathal Byrne mentioned unexplained wealth. I think it goes without saying that one of the most successful units within An Garda Síochána is the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB. It does outstanding work to identify, investigate and recover the proceeds of crime. Every Garda division has a CAB unit - a CAB officer and a CAB office. They do good work and they are quite successful. They should be supported.

Senator Tully mentioned mental health, community supports and addiction issues in the context of prison spaces. There is a commitment within the programme for Government to provide for increased prison spaces, as she knows. Much investment has gone in over recent years to create additional prison spaces. Her points were very well made. It goes back to some of the youth diversion programmes and putting in place the proper front-line services to help people who suffer addiction and who suffer from mental health, like the CAST programme that is being piloted in Limerick that tries to intervene with people and recognise the issues and challenges they have to try to keep them away from the custodial system. At the same time, however, we have be real about it as well. We have a growing population, and with a growing population there will be a greater prevalence of crime. Unfortunately, despite all of the issues just mentioned, the State has to have the capacity to be able to put people behind bars where the crimes so dictate or the courts so decide.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for being here for the debate, where more than half the Seanad contributed to the very important topic of safety in our communities. When is it proposed to sit again?

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.