Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell, for coming to the Chamber to respond to Deputies Chris Andrews and Seán Crowe, who wish to discuss the planned national children's science centre and the impact of the proposed development on the Iveagh Gardens.

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming in. The Iveagh Gardens is a particularly unique part of our city. It is a hugely important asset to the local community, which has very little green space. It is a five-minute walk from here. It is a really important asset to our community. It is tucked away at the back of the National Concert Hall. It is in an area with one of the lowest amounts of green space per capita of any European city. We must protect it. We really must protect it. It would be devastating to allow this piece of heritage and this green area, which is a jewel in Dublin's crown, to disappear.

There are plans to develop an Irish children's science museum at the National Concert Hall by Irish Children's Museum Limited, which is a charity.

That will damage the park and eat into it. We must protect these gardens. This entire project is being carried out in the dark. It has created so many questions and there are still so many questions around it. It was discussed in the Committee of Public Accounts last week. There are many questions that no one seems to want or be able to answer.

According to the Irish Children’s Museum Limited, ICML, which is behind this project, work is due to begin next year. For me, this is astounding considering no business case or feasibility study has been done by the OPW or the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, none at all. No Department has committed to meeting the annual cost of running this science museum. No one knows who will be responsible for the running of this science museum. Will the ICML run it and continue the fundraising required to sustain the exhibits or will it be handed back to the State to run? Again, we do not know.

The Minister has confirmed that the OPW is legally obliged to construct the national children's science centre. Can a summary of the detailed legal advice be provided to the Committee of Public Accounts, as it requested on 12 June 2024? In fact, at a meeting on 11 October 2018, Mr. Buckley is on record as saying: "I cannot imagine that people of that eminence who are good, solid citizens, would wish to pursue the project if it did not pass muster with the cost-benefit analysis and public spending code." Will this project be subject to a business case appraisal in accordance with the requirements of the public spending code? If not, why not?

There is no need for a new science centre as there is already one on 20 acres that was built in 2019. The Minister of State with responsibility for sport relaunched it just this year. It is in Sandyford, which is just 11 km away from this other proposed science museum. It does not make any sense whatsoever. Who will own this proposed new building if it is built? What will be the estimated costs to the Government to fit out, provide installation and operate this building? The Minister of State has confirmed that the OPW is legally obliged to construct this national children's science centre. Can a summary of the detailed advice be provided?

The cost of this project is now estimated to be €70 million. When this project started, 21 years ago, the cost was estimated to be €15 million. There are also various issues around this project. It is still hanging around and it now seems that this board, the ICML, is going to try to push it on next year.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I might be a bit slow, but could the Deputy make it clear to us who is proposing to build this mysterious centre?

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Well, it is the ICML, which is a charity.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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What does it have to do with the National Concert Hall?

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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That is the site where the building will be constructed.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Who is giving the charity the site?

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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The OPW is going to build it and it was locked into an agreement several years ago.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Right. Can we hear the Minister of State anyway?

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. If I could just say, the cost of this project started at €15 million. It is now going to cost €70 million.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We could build two of them.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for raising this matter. The national children's science centre, NCSC, aims to provide an interactive science museum that will include over 200 scientific exhibits, interactive science spaces and demonstration areas, as well as a lecture and planetarium space. I understand that it is intended that these facilities will interact with science curriculum activity in schools, scientific organisations and related technological groups. This is consistent with the Government's policy on the promotion of science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, as outlined in the Department of Education's policy statement 2017-2026.

The development of the national children’s science centre received a notification of a decision to grant planning permission from Dublin City Council on 23 November 2022. Following a third-party appeal from two parties, An Bord Pleanála issued a grant of planning permission in March 2024. The planning submission made by the OPW, along with the response to the third-party appeal issued to An Bord Pleanála, addressed all the issues raised regarding any possible impacts to the Iveagh Gardens. This is supported by An Bord Pleanála within the report of the inspectors. The concerns expressed in the petition from the Save the Iveagh Gardens group were addressed as part of the OPW planning application made in 2022. An Bord Pleanála accepted the OPW’s submission in its decision.

The national children’s science centre will re-establish some of the historic links that existed as part of the original Iveagh Garden 1865 design that was broken due to the construction of the current wall in 1909. It is important to note that the original 1865 exhibition design incorporated the exhibition building and the Iveagh Gardens as one entity. With the establishment of the university at Earlsfort Terrace, the Iveagh Gardens location was separated by a wall. The new building will not encroach on the Iveagh Gardens. It will allow universal access to the gardens from Earlsfort Terrace which is currently not possible.

During 2021, arbitration proceedings were brought by Irish Children’s Museum Limited, as the Deputy referred to. The arbitrator found in favour of the ICML in June 2022. The arbitrator has yet to reconvene the parties to the case following the recent grant of planning permission in March 2024. The subject of this determination is likely to set out timelines for the procurement of the project by the OPW. Provision for the national children’s science centre is not included in the 2023 Estimates as the arbitration proceedings were ongoing. The Government has yet to decide which Government Department or Departments will be the funder of this building. The details of the conditions of the planning permission are currently being assessed and an update on the total project costs will be determined soon. Following the arbitration process, the OPW has a legal obligation to construct the national children's science centre.

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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This project has been foisted on the OPW and the National Concert Hall. The Iveagh Gardens are an extremely important part of our heritage. The location functions as a lung in the city of Dublin and it must be protected. This is the thin edge of the wedge. As I said, this project was foisted on the National Concert Hall. Three Departments have grant funded the project but they have left the National Concert Hall and the OPW holding the baby. The OPW will build the structure but it will not assess the viability of the project. It has stated this fact. We do not know if the viability has been assessed. Neither do we know who is going to assess the viability of this project.

This is a remarkable story, with absolutely zero transparency. Why do we need another science museum? We already have one just 10 km or 11 km from here. The ICML charity needs to answer these questions. It seems to be like a secret organisation, to be honest. It has an office in the National Concert Hall. Who gives it that office? Is it paying rent? What are the conditions in this regard?

This project would have a devastating impact on the Iveagh Gardens, which have been protected so far. We must, though, be vigilant about it. There is no strong case for this science museum. If there is one, I would like to hear what it is. We must do everything we can to save the Iveagh Gardens because it is a beautiful space. More than 46,000 people signed a petition calling for the Iveagh Gardens to be protected and this project to be ended. I call on the Minister of State to get some answers for the people who are outraged by the damage that will be done to the Iveagh Gardens. People from right across the city use the space daily. It is also used for various events. It is something we need to protect.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I appreciate that the Minister of State has given a lot of clarity in his response, but I still do not know what the ICML entity is. This is the party that is applying for this project and that is going to build it. What is this group?

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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It is a private charity.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have never heard of it.

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could the Minister of State tell us about it, please?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have only held this portfolio for a short time, but my understanding is that the ICML brought forward a proposal to build a science centre. That centre has ended up being the subject of arbitration in 2013 and 2021, with a decision having been made in June 2022. That decision from the arbitrator was that the OPW had the legal obligation to build the national science centre. It went through planning and it was appealed to An Board Pleanála, with a final decision made by that agency in March 2024.

The arbitrator has to reconvene to bring back the parties to the case, which are the OPW and the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited, to determine what are the deadlines and the next steps forward. That arbitrator's decision was a legal decision, which stated that the OPW had a legal obligation to build a national science centre. The Government is yet to decide which Department will fund the building. In summary, based on the decision and ruling of the arbitrator in June 2022, the OPW has a legal obligation to construct the science centre. We are obviously working through the details of planning permission and an update of the total costs will then be determined. The OPW will continue to engage with other Departments regarding the execution of its obligations including the funding costs. The arbitrator has yet to convene a meeting between the parties, which are the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited and the OPW to decide the next steps forward.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I think we are making a bit of history. What the Minister of State is effectively saying to us is that a registered charity has a deal to access a piece of public land.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No, it is being built by the OPW.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I did not get to that yet. It got the site from the National Concert Hall by whatever means. That has been arranged. It has gone to arbitration to get the OPW to build it. The OPW is the manager and curator of the State's facilities and properties. The arbitrator's decision is that the OPW must build it. That seems to imply the Government must also fund it. Would you not want to know before you start what you are going to be spending on it?

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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How much you are going to spend.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will deal with the core point brought up by Deputy Andrews. My understanding is that it will not encroach on Iveagh Gardens.

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Trees will have to be knocked. A partition wall is going to be knocked too.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It went through a legal process. The legal process has gone on for many years and dates back to 2003. There was a Government decision at the time. It was before my time and ultimately ended up in arbitration. The most recent arbitration was in 2021. The arbitrator made a decision in June 2022, which basically said the OPW is legally obliged to build it. The next steps were that the OPW had to apply for planning permission. It was appealed to An Bord Pleanála by the two parties. An Bord Pleanála made its final decision with a grant in March 2024. The next step is that the arbitrator reconvenes with the parties, which are the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited, which is the promoter, and the OPW, to decide the next steps. The Government has yet to decide which Department will fund this building. This building has just been granted final permission. That is the current state of play.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Minister of State. I suspect we will hear a great deal more about it. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, for being here, and all the Members for raising the various matters.