Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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4. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection when she will take measures to reverse the discrimination facing women whoraised families before 1994 when their contributory pension entitlements are calculated; the steps she is taking to address the losses suffered by pensioners as a result of the changing of the bands for the contributory pension in 2013; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [2330/18]

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am asking the Minister the same question as the previous one but in a different manner and I would like the Minister to take a slightly different emphasis from the one she took with respect to the question of discrimination against women in this regard. Although these band changes affect both men and women, there are particular measures of discrimination affecting women who raised their families prior to 1994. In addressing the question and making the statement that I have asked for, the Minister, given that she was part of the previous regime, might try to explain why that date was chosen, why was it not 1993, 1996 or 1990. Will she explain if it was arbitrarily chosen? Was it calculated on the basis of the amount of savings the State would make, because it knew that prior to 1994 there would not be that many people retiring for the next 20 or 25 years, in order to get us out of the austerity period? I am asking the Minister the same question as the previous ones with a different emphasis on the issue of discrimination against women who made their homes prior to that date.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for her question and I want to be able to answer it properly. She is specifically asking about the homemaker's credit and not about the anomaly. If she does not mind, I am going to shoot to a supplementary response because it more freely answers the question she has asked me. In practice, there are a number of factors that make it impossible to be precise. That is not the correct reply - I beg the Deputy's pardon.

When the contribution pension was introduced in 1961, a yearly average approach was used for calculating entitlements. As reckonable social insurance had just been introduced eight years prior to that, no one would have had the 30 to 40 years of contributions necessary to be paid under a total contributions approach. However, having a yearly average model would allow many people to qualify for a full pension and with the extension of PRSI over the year, notably to self-employment and farmers in 1988, a total contributions approach can be used from around 2020 without disadvantaging people in those sectors. They will have a 30-year window to accumulate what their contributions are. The main difficulty with the yearly average approach is that it is possible for people to start to pay social insurance at a much later stage in life and still qualify for pensions to the maximum rate, which is not very fair. That is why the yearly averaging system is going to be changed, hopefully, to a total contributions model.

The reason the change was introduced at that time - I cannot tell the Deputy whether the date was arbitrarily chosen and, obviously, I was not around at that time - was to acknowledge genuinely that women stay at home and we take choices to come out of the workforce and to rear our family. That change was introduced at that time to acknowledge the huge service to the family, community and society.

I am speaking off the top of my head, only because I have had experience of introducing measures since I became Minister and I have had to pick a start date. I commit to the Deputy that I will find the answer to why that date was picked and whether we looked at different dates at the time. If the Deputy can give me some space, I will come back to her later today with a specific answer. I do not know whether that date was arbitrarily chosen or whether we picked it for a reason. I will come back to her on that later today and I am sorry I do not have a better answer for her on that.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I accept the Minister will not think of this in the same way that I do but in so far as we have our gender in common, on a daily basis we are faced with a barrage of elements of discrimination in this society, the latest being the revisiting of the debacle that Joanne Hayes faced in 1984 because of the Kerry babies issue. The question that jumps out is this: why it is recognised that women leave the workforce and rear children for those after 1994 but not for those before then. As we speak and was mentioned by other Deputies, there are people across the road in Buswells Hotel having a press conference. One of them is a woman from Kildare called Joan McLoughlin who left the workforce in the 1970s to rear her family. She has been very active in Pensioners for Equality, who had the last protest outside the Dáil. She was reported in a local newspaper in Kildare, from where she comes, as having said it is not about her, she runs a B&B and is not too badly off but she is down €55 a week on her old age pension. However, she said, others are worse off. She said one lady she was speaking to said when she goes back home she has to count out the pieces of coal. She said, imagine in 2018 having to count every piece of coal and that is the reality for some people: it is. There are pensioners living in poverty and many of them are women because they did the job that was expected of them, which was to be mothers and to rear their family. I know the Minister wants to fix it and that she will try to fix it and she has said she will have to find new money. She should remember that we are living in an obscene society-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call the Minister to respond as we are running out of time on this question.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----where the rich list shows that the top ten earners in this country accumulated €2 billion last year and look at the other end of the scale.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call the Minister to reply. Members should bear in mind the minute allocated.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Can we do something about that anomaly?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I do not have the answer to the question the Deputy asked but I am able to tell her that if and when we introduce a total contributions approach on 1 January 2020, which is only a number of years away, whatever credit we decide for homemakers during the public consultation model, whether it is 15 years or 20 years, will be for any year. Therefore, the 1994 business will be defunct once we reach 1 January 2020. I know that does not help us today but that is where we are going with this, namely, that 20-year credit will be able to be assigned to any year one stayed at home. For the likes of the Deputy's mother or my mother with respect to the 1994 issue, once we reach 2020, they would benefit in the future. I will come back to the Deputy later today on her question regarding why the change was introduced with respect to that date.

11 o’clock

There is an issue with the incidence of fuel poverty. During the passage of the Social Welfare Bill Deputy Willie O'Dea requested that I conduct an inquiry to the changes we might be able to make to social transfers. I could not agree to his request because it was not within the remit of my Department. However, I have found a back door to do what we were seeking to achieve and I will conduct the review in the next couple of weeks with a view to examining the rates of payment and the periods of time for which we make payments. It must also be acknowledged that the price of fuel has increased. I look forward to working with the social welfare committee on the issue.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I appreciate the Minister's positive responses, but they will not be welcomed if she is saying to pensioners that they will have to wait until 2020 and that the rates will only be adjusted from that year onwards. There are very angry people, particularly women, who are saying this issue must be sorted out now and payments backdated. They will not put up with the loss of €1,500 to €2,000 a year when they are living in Povertyville. Some 42,000 pensioners are affected now, but they will become hundreds of thousands, as people retire, unless this issue is sorted out. This needs to happen as soon as possible. I ruge those not affected now but who will be to attend outside Leinster House tomorrow at 12.30 p.m. with their brothers and sisters from Age Action Ireland, the Irish Countrywomen's Association, Pensioners for Equality and the National Women's Council of Ireland. It is important that they do. We had a revolution a number of years ago when Fianna Fáil attacked the medical card system. Let us have another over the attack on pensioners and I know that the Government will respond to it. The more people who are outside Leinster House at 12.30 p.m. tomorrow, the better the outcome of the Cabinet meeting will be.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I know why the Deputy is saying what she is saying and hope there will be thousands of people outside Leinster House tomorrow. I will go and meet them. However, I do not feel pressure.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister's colleagues do.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps they should experience the pressure exerted on me.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister is only one woman and better off without it.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I am backing her all the way.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Duly noted.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I have made a commitment and recognised the anomaly and how it affects some 42,000 people. The Deputy is right that as each year passes and the anomaly is not fixed, there will be a further 8,000 to 10,000 added to the list. I recognise that it is wrong and have committed to fixing it. I will fix it. I invite people to attend tomorrow to express how they feel and I will certainly listen. However, it will not make me sell it any better tomorrow afternoon. I already know exactly what I want and hope to achieve.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It will help to make up the minds of others though.