Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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103. To ask the Minister for Finance if he or his Department has had any discussion with Allied Irish Banks over the outsourcing of application and development management, ADM, services; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24507/15]

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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My information is that the ADM department is being outsourced to India and that skilled IT staff have been told this and will be forced out of the bank. This is a bank that the so-called we own 99.8% of, yet the Government is agreeing not to intervene in any way in AIB's employment practices and job losses.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for her question. As she will be aware, under the relationship framework the State does not intervene in the day-to-day operations of the banks in which it holds investments or their management decisions regarding commercial matters. Hence, any discussion around matters such as outsourcing is a matter for the bank, the relevant staff and their union representatives. Notwithstanding this position, my officials take an active interest in how the bank's cost base evolves to ensure that the State's interests as shareholder are protected and the Government's remuneration policy is enforced.

The bank has previously indicated that, as part of its restructuring plan to reduce costs and increase efficiencies, the outsourcing of certain functions would be considered in consultation with unions and affected staff. I have been informed by the bank that there have been no compulsory redundancies as a result of its recent outsourcing activities. Any staff who transfer under outsourcing arrangements transfer under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment), TUPE, Regulations.

I have been informed that AIB has not at this stage confirmed any agreement to outsource some of its technology services in ADM teams to a third party provider. Should such a decision be confirmed, affected staff will be informed immediately and AIB will enter into a full process of information and consultation with employee representatives, as required by law and under engagement principles agreed with the Irish Bank Officials Association, IBOA.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I asked a bunch of questions to which the Minister gave the same answer, namely, under the relationship framework, the State does not intervene in the day-to-day operations of the bank or management decisions on commercial matters. We put money in continually, but we are not bothered by jobs being shed. The Government could change this relationship if it wanted to.

Since we paid to bail out the banks, there has been a loss of approximately 4,000 jobs at AIB. It has also outsourced a number of its functions, including cleaning, catering, IT and training. We are meant to own it. The State could intervene to prevent these job losses and the cheapening of labour.

There is a proposal to transfer the ADM section to an Indian company. AIB may keep some of its staff in Ireland, but there is a legitimate concern that it will outsource more functions abroad. It has already happened in the finance sector. The Minister should have an interest in this matter because there have been serious problems with outsourcing IT in other banks, leading to months of delays in addressing consumer complaints.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy would have received answers to the effect that the State was at arm's length from the banks and that we did not interfere in commercial decisions. The relationship framework sets out clearly that the political side should not interfere in commercial decisions. Consider when Anglo Irish Bank was nationalised or when, in the early days of this Government, I recapitalised PTSB, AIB and Bank of Ireland.

One of the main concerns of Deputies on all sides of the House was that commercial decisions would be commercial and they would not be influenced by political considerations. That was a very strong case advanced by everybody here and it is something that I am convinced was a proper decision, that there should not be political interference in commercial decisions in the banks. As I said in my reply, I have been informed that AIB has not at this stage confirmed any agreement to outsource some of its technology services but should it do so it will follow the agreements it has entered into with the Irish Bank Officials Association.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It will consult immediately with the staff if such a decision is made.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Minister is making it sound like a holy creed that the State should not intervene in bank decisions. That is the Minister's view.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Commercial decisions.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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That would not be the view of most ordinary people outside. For example, "commercial reasons" was the reason given for not informing the Minister's Department about the sale of Siteserv DNC Sierra. That whole debacle was for commercial reasons. The Minister did not find out about that until a month after it had happened. When the taxpayer is pumping money in, I do not see why the State should not be able to interfere. Banks could be run in the interests of ordinary people for a change. That would be a turnaround, knowing that people could get cheap credit and mortgages, and affordable housing could be built.

In regard to the particulars of AIB, Ulster Bank saw its systems go down for a number of months in 2012. I think it took three months to have it resolved for some customers. Outsourcing these departments is not a good idea. The other part is that this seems to be a pattern, somewhat similar to the last question. Bank jobs used to be good jobs with good pensions. If he does not intervene, the Minister is assisting in the decline of decent pay and conditions in the financial services sector.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call the Minister to conclude.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I could not disagree more with the Deputy than in her policy position that Deputies and Ministers should be enabled to influence commercial decisions of the banks. We had a touch of that in the past and it would lead to absolute chaos. It is not the ordinary people of Ireland who would benefit from that, rather it is the people on the inside track who would benefit again. The policy is no interference with commercial decisions and I will maintain that position. The Deputy is entitled to her alternative view but I think it is very misguided and would lead to corruption of the system if implemented, even on a partial basis, much less a widespread basis. The position is as I have outlined and I do not have anything further to add at this point.