Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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9. To ask the Minister for Defence if he will be revising the 21 year rule to enable members of the Defence Forces who are willing and able to continue in service to do so; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20047/14]

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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15. To ask the Minister for Defence the extent to which he has received submissions from representatives of the Defence Forces in respect of retirement and recruitment with particular reference to the degree to which previously determined age based retirement is likely to affect the composition of the force in the future; if any modification can be entertained with a view to meeting the concerns expressed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20040/14]

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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17. To ask the Minister for Defence his plans to review the policy whereby privates and corporals may not serve beyond 21 years from 2015; the impact this will have on the Permanent Defence Force; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20057/14]

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is aware that the 21 year rule is in force as a result of which a number of members of the Defence Forces are having to retire against their wishes. In the current climate where there are very few job opportunities, I ask that serving members of the Defence Forces who meet the health criteria would be enabled to remain in the Defence Forces for a period longer than 21 years. I would welcome the Minister's opinion on that matter.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 9, 15 and 17 together.

The unsatisfactory age and fitness profile of the Permanent Defence Force, PDF, was an issue of serious concern during the 1990s. It was the subject of severe criticism by a series of external reports, mainly Price Waterhouse Consultants and the Efficiency Audit Group, EAG. One of the key areas identified for urgent action by the EAG was the development of a manpower policy with an emphasis on lowering the age profile of PDF personnel. The EAG’s report was accepted by Government in 1995.

In an effort to alleviate the situation, the Government had already decided in 1993 to enlist personnel on a five year contract basis, following consultation with the Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association, PDFORRA. In 1997 agreement was reached with PDFORRA on a new manpower policy for the Defence Forces. This policy, applying to personnel enlisted after 1 January 1994, provided that service for private soldiers would initially be for five years with the option to be extended to a maximum of 12 years, subject to meeting standards of medical and physical fitness and conduct. Longer periods of service were envisaged for non-commissioned officers.

In 2004 PDFORRA submitted a claim under the conciliation and arbitration scheme for a further review of the terms of service applying to personnel enlisting in the PDF after 1 January 1994. A set of criteria was agreed with PDFORRA to provide longer careers for those who enlisted post 1 January 1994 while continuing to address the Government’s objective of having an appropriate age profile to meet the challenges of a modern Defence Forces.

The criteria require that any person re-engaging after 12 years service must be able to continue to operate at their current level both at home and overseas on an ongoing basis. Re-engagement is subject to the individual soldier meeting specified criteria in regard to physical fitness, medical category, successful completion of military courses of instruction, service overseas and conduct ratings.

With the approach of 2015 the first effects of the agreement, whereby privates and corporals may not serve beyond 21 years, will be felt by Permanent Defence Force members in those ranks. A claim has been received, as the Deputy may know, from PDFORRA for a further review in relation to this matter. In accordance with normal procedures the association’s claim is being dealt with under the conciliation and arbitration scheme for members of the Permanent Defence Force. I understand that discussions are taking place with the representative association under a special Subcommittee of Conciliation Council. As discussions are confidential to the parties involved in accordance with the terms of the scheme, I do not in any way want to prejudice them or impact on their outcome.

However, I do understand the concerns it raises for enlisted personnel due to be discharged in terms of their personal circumstances and the impact on their families. I am sure that all matters raised by PDFORRA on behalf of their members are being comprehensively examined at Conciliation Council. I am also cognisant of the need for continuing recruitment to the Defence Forces of young and fit men and women so that the Defence Forces can discharge all the roles assigned to them by Government, both at home and overseas. It was for this very reason that this policy was introduced in the first place.

As the negotiation process with the representative association is very much ongoing, I would not like to pre-empt or second guess the outcome of current discussions at Conciliation Council, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on this issue publicly at this time.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is welcome that the Minister appears to have changed tack in this matter. By virtue of the fact that a discussion process has commenced, he is willing to consider the request made by PDFORRA. Nobody is suggesting for one minute that a "Dad's Army" type of force would be acceptable. What we are asking is that during a time of limited job opportunities the men and women who have served the Defence Forces and their communities with distinction and wish to continue in service after 21 years and meet the medical and fitness criteria in that regard be afforded an opportunity to do so. While it is welcome that a negotiating process has commenced, the Minister, as the person with responsibility, has the power to accede to PDFORRA's request. It would be beneficial to members of the Defence Forces if it were to be met.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I have not changed tack at all. I may be wrong, but this issue has been raised with me previously by the Deputy and other Deputies. There is a process and a procedure in place to deal with issues of this nature. PDFORRA is a party to the agreement I referenced. As I said, issues have been raised by it, issues it is entitled to raise. I do not want to say anything that would prejudice the outcome of the process under way, but I am conscious of the concerns and issues raised which must be addressed in the best interests of the Defence Forces generally and the context of ensuring the overall capacity of the Defence Forces to meet its objectives and provide the services required at home and abroad. This is an ongoing issue. As I said, I do not wish to say anything that would prejudice what is an important process taking place.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his replies thus far. Are the discussions taking place likely to take account of the rather unique set of circumstances presenting? While previous agreements served their purpose well, it may well be the case that a review could be beneficial to the operation of the Defence Forces and in meeting the Minister's requirements in terms of adherence to previous agreements and the possibility of new ones being entered into.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The review will take account of all matters, including the operational capability of the Defence Forces. I do not wish to say any more than this in the context of the conciliation process under way.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his brief reply. I appreciate the sensitivities. Notwithstanding this, when does the Minister expect the negotiations under way to conclude?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I do not wish to put a definitive timeframe on them or say they will be concluded by the end of the month because there is always the possibility the process could take somewhat longer to complete. They will, however, be concluded in the coming weeks. Much depends on both parties involved, but I do not want anyone to have to adhere to a definitive timeframe. There is space for this issue to be worked through. I expect matters to be dealt with in the coming weeks. I cannot, however, predict with certainty whether this will happen in the month of May or June.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is correct that my colleague, Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl, has raised this issue on a number of occasions, on each of which the Minister stated he did not want to change the policy. Is the process under way meaningful? Is the Minister willing to listen to PDFORRA's side of the argument or is this process merely a charade and the Minister has his mind made up that the policy will not change? The men and women concerned have served their communities and the Defence Forces with distinction. We are effectively telling them that when they reach the age of 38, 39 or 40 years, they are no longer capable of work. Some of them meet the highest health and fitness standards and are well capable of carrying out their work. Members of the defence forces in other countries serve well into their fifties. Having invested heavily in training these personnel, forcing them to retire at 38 and 39 years of age is an inefficient use of resources. I hope the Minister will confirm the process is meaningful and not a charade.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The process is meaningful. It is important not to say people will be rendered unemployable because many members of the Defence Forces leave on retirement with particular niche skills that make them readily employable. Even in a difficult jobs market, they are able to obtain employment, although I accept that does not apply to everybody and no one should pretend that it does. The process is meaningful, as it must be. However, the Deputy cannot have it every way. He cannot say, on the one hand, say we do not want a "Dad's Army" and, on the other, that we should allow all members to remain until they reach the age of 55 or 60 years. We must have a defence force that has the capabilities its requires. Given the objective of having a force with a strength of 9,500, when members of the Defence Forces retire, this allows for the recruitment of new members. As I have said previously in the House, approximately 400 new recruits will join the Defence Forces this year. This number is based on retirements. There are job opportunities for young people in joining the Defence Forces when members retire. This is a meaningful process, not an engagement for a declaration or in a charade, and I hope it will produce an outcome within the coming weeks. However, I cannot pre-empt its outcome.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I heard the Minister's reply and understand his position on the matter. I agree with the remarks made by other Deputies about forcing people to retire in their 40s. Defence Forces personnel are required to pass fitness tests which, if not met, results in their discharge, which is fair enough. However, some of the men and women concerned are very young, fit and healthy and bring a wealth of experience to the table. In other areas such as construction in which the work is every bit as challenging physically tradesmen work into their late 50s, while labourers work up to the age of 54 or 55 years. In employing Defence Forces personnel up to the age of 50 years we would not retaining them beyond use. The French Foreign Legion recruits up to the age of 40 years, which means that it recruits personnel up to the same age at which Defence Forces personnel are forced to retire.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy never ceases to be a source of wonderment. I did not realise he was a fan of the French Foreign Legion. As I said to Deputy Robert Troy, this is a meaningful process. We will wait to see what comes out of it.