Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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87. To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine the progress of the investigation into allegations of weight-to-volume fraud at Coillte; if he has been updated recently by his officials on this matter; if so, the action he will take on the matter; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6501/14]

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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This is, as it were, a second take on this question. The Minister should be aware of the issue as I have been questioning him about it since November 2012. At this stage, one could not be blamed for becoming a little impatient because nothing is happening. The people who approached me to report suspected or alleged weight-to-volume fraud are wondering if anything will be done about it. One of them told me that whereas he used to be sorry to see people leave the country, he has come to the conclusion that the quicker people get out, the better it is for them. It is terrible to hear that.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am also sorry to hear that but it is statement with which I do not agree. People will have their views.

As I have clarified previously in response to a question from the Deputy on this subject last June, this matter relates to alleged fraud irregularities which are not specifically about Coillte but have a wider sectoral perspective. Further to the Deputy raising this subject in the House and at Oireachtas committee meetings, I asked him if he had evidence on which I could act to give it to me and I would act on it. I also advised that if there were questions which needed to be asked of the Coillte board about any type of fraudulent activity, I would follow up on them. I will not, however, cast aspersions without having supporting evidence.

A meeting was held between the Deputy, representatives of the company making the complaint, their legal representative and officials of my Department last May, following which an investigation was undertaken by two officials from the forestry side of my Department. My officials thoroughly reviewed the material received and reverted to the other attendees at the meeting for clarification on some points. They then spoke to Coillte management. Contact was also made with An Garda Síochána to ascertain the status of a complaint which had previously been lodged with it. In the course of their departmental investigation a great deal of detailed information, both written and verbal, was provided to my officials by the company making the complaint and Coillte. My officials went through this material and subsequently sought clarification and additional material.

A report of their investigation was finalised last November, the contents and conclusion of which were outlined to the Deputy and others at a meeting on 21 November 2013. In summary, the report states that the evidence provided by Deputy Flanagan and the complainant company does not prove conclusive on the issue of sample tampering.

I understand that the Deputy was not satisfied with the conduct and outcome of the investigation. Given the nature of the issue and the fact that it is currently under active consideration by An Garda Síochána, I am reluctant to discuss the matter further. In addition, I have legal advice stating that the report cannot be released at this time so as not to prejudice or impair the investigation of offences. To assist that process, I propose to make my Department’s report and information obtained in the course of its investigation available to An Garda Síochána. I have also received an assurance from the acting CEO of Coillte that Coillte management will assist in any Garda investigation.

I know the Deputy is not happy with the investigation undertaken by my Department and its conclusion. I believe the team involved did the best job they could and produced conclusions that were accurate given all the information available to them. The file on the matter has passed to the Garda Síochána. I have also received a commitment from Coillte management that they will co-operate fully with the Garda Síochána if there are issues to be followed up in terms of its investigation.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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The Minister says there was a thorough review. There was not a thorough review. At the core of this issue are two allegations. The CCTV evidence of sample tampering is available and there are unexplained variations in conversion factors both in relation to specific sales and a pattern over a period, which can only be assessed with the benefit of auction sales and conversion factor dates over the past decade. This information is not, however, available because, we are told, it is commercially sensitive. The Minister has the ultimate say in respect of Coillte yet we are being told he cannot get this particular information because it is commercially sensitive.

I am interested to hear that this matter is not closed because we were told by the Department officials that it was over and done with. This Government makes great play, and rightly so, about the e-voting machines and the €50 million wasted in that regard. The amount involved in this case is much greater yet we are being stonewalled. This matter needs to be dealt with. The Minister said that the Garda Síochána is dealing with the matter. However, the Garda Síochána is waiting for Coillte to make a complaint, which Coillte refuses to do. If somebody robbed my house in the morning and I was afraid to make a complaint in that regard to the Garda, one would have to suspect there was something suspicious going on.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is frustrated because he is not getting the answers he wants. We have done what we, as a Department, said we would do. We have examined all of the files available to us. The conclusion of the departmental investigation was that the accusations being made could not be stood up by the facts available. We have given all of that information to the Garda Síochána, which is the appropriate investigative body if the law has been broken. I am not sure what else the Deputy wants me to do. I do not propose to cast aspersions on Coillte or anybody else for that matter unless I have the evidence to back that up.

All files have been given to the appropriate body to investigate whether there was any wrongdoing or breaches of the law. That is where the matter now stands.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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This is a farce. The Minister mentioned full information. He is the person who can get that full information. However, the argument being put forward is that the Minister cannot get that information because it is commercially sensitive. During the meeting, the Minister's official said that the investigation was closed and that was it. The situation has now changed again. It is remarkable that the auditors were not interviewed about the information that they had on variations in patterns from one area of the country to the other without Coillte being present.

We are told that the Department could not do that because it does not employ these auditors. Does the Minister expect us to believe this? Sadly, there is so much going on at the moment with the Central Remedial Clinic, Irish Water and the Garda Síochána that a problem which, potentially, could cost us €85 million and more does not even get a hearing. It is the Minister's lucky day but I will keep talking.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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This has got a hearing. The fact that it is not getting front-page newspaper coverage seems to frustrate Deputy Flanagan.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Only when the Minister reacts does it get front-page coverage. That is how the Minister does his business and the same goes for the Government.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Flanagan raised it. We have already reacted. Our Department has already set up several meetings with the Deputy and the company that has made the complaints. We have already had an internal investigation in the Department, which has not given the Deputy the answers he wants.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Why was I not given a copy of the document?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We have now passed on all those files to the appropriate body, the Garda Síochána, in order that it can investigate whether the accusations that are being made are true. Coillte has said that it will co-operate fully with the process. If that is not satisfactory to Deputy Flanagan, then perhaps he does not trust the Garda to do its job on the issue.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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There is information in respect of the Garda Síochána that the Minister apparently could not get.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, we are in the last few seconds.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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How can the Minister be in charge of a company and claim the information is commercially sensitive and therefore he cannot get it? That is not in any way credible.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has concluded and we are going on to the next question.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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If Deputy Flanagan has anything, he might send it on to the Garda, if he is as certain as he seems to be.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Cuív has the next question.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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The Minister has the information.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We are moving on to the next question now.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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The Minister should send it on to the Garda. The Minister has the information. Next time the Minister cries when a child is in pain because there is not enough money to help them, he should remember where it went. The Minister is doing nothing about this. This is our money, my children's money, my neighbour's money and the country's money and the Minister could not give a damn about it.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Flanagan, please.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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It is a fact.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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The Minister is up there with the Minister for Justice and Equality, a great achievement.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please desist from that.

Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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The Minister should be ashamed of himself given what he is after doing.