Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 3 October 2024
Public Accounts Committee
Business of Committee
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes; accounts and financial statements; correspondence; consideration of our work programme; and any other business.
The first item is the minutes. The minutes of our meeting of 26 September 2024 have been circulated to members. Do any members wish to raise any matters on the minutes? No. Are the minutes agreed as normal? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.
Moving on to accounts and financial statements, members will see that six sets of accounts and financial statements were laid before the House between 23 September and 27 September this year. I ask Mr. Seamus McCarthy, the Comptroller and Auditor General, to address these, then we will open the floor.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
No. 1 is the Local Government Fund for 2023. That received a clear audit opinion.
No. 2 is the Road Safety Authority for 2023. It received a clear audit opinion but I draw attention to a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules.
No. 3 is the Medical Bureau of Road Safety for 2023. That received a clear audit opinion.
No. 4 is the Pensions Authority for 2023. It received a clear audit opinion.
No. 5 is the Irish Museum of Modern Art for 2023. It received a clear audit opinion.
No. 6 is the National Museum of Ireland for 2023. It received a clear audit opinion.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do any members wish to address issues in the financial statements? No. They are all okay. Can we agree and note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the accounts and financial statements are published as part of our minutes.
Moving on to correspondence, as previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion at the meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of committee meetings and will be published on the committee's webpage.
Members have flagged one item for discussion under category B, correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-up to committee meetings. We received No. R2809 from Mr. Brendan Gleeson, who is the Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is dated 20 September. It is correspondence to the committee providing a response to information we requested at the meeting on 11 July. It is proposed to note and publish that. Is that agreed? Agreed. I have flagged this, as did Deputy Murphy. I raised this issue with Mr. Sheahan, the deputy chief veterinary officer at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine at the meeting. He said, "If you were to ask me even three weeks ago what were standards like within the slaughter plant in Straffan I would say that standards were very good within this slaughter plant". Now the Department is saying, in point No. 1 of this correspondence, that investigations go as far back as 2021 and 2022. It repeats it on page 4. It says there was no cause for concern, even though there were ongoing investigations. A good few of us, including Deputy Murphy, raised the matter of the 20,000 horses that have gone missing with no trace. The Department says that unfortunately there is no data source against which this proposition can be checked, verified or validated. The whole thing seems to be wide open, for want of a better word. Deputy Murphy indicated that she wanted to say something on this too.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This is my constituency so I am aware of it. I am wondering what the status of the premises is at this point. Can we write back and ask for that? On page 3, point No. 6 states that following the Department's determination, the carcases must be destroyed as a result of unsatisfactory food chain information. It goes on to say that the Department issued a food fraud notification on 20 June through the EU rapid alert system for food and feed, RASFF, to the French authorities to advise of its suspicion of fraud associated with the plant, which had supplied products to a location in France to enable French authorities to assess what action might be necessary or appropriate in France. Have the French authorities provided an update to the Department of agriculture or the Minister? What are the ongoing engagements?
The following page states that it does not reach the threshold for seizure of animals. That is at the top of page 4. That has been something that people are concerned about. It might be worth asking what the threshold is for seizure. I know the Department said there were five complaints. I am surprised there were only five, because I have had people tell me that they complained on multiple occasions. When I asked the Department about it when officials were before the committee, they said there were five individual complaints. I know that one person complained multiple times. It does not seem to have been captured. The plant itself appears to have been the focus, although some of the stuff on the television programme would have given major cause for concern about the behaviour of individuals within that plant. The public has access to the fields around it to look over the fence and see.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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As I recall, a number of the Deputy's constituents made several complaints.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I think she said five complaints. I talked to several. They talked about animals in the last throes. They have deep concerns about it. I am not convinced that we are getting to the bottom of this at all. There is the traceability issue, as the Chair raised. The Department says it is putting something in place. We need a timeline on that.
Regarding Shannonside, my understanding was that it was the only plant of its type. The concern was that animals at the end of life may well have to be exported. We might ask the Department exactly what processes are in place for animals that are at the end of life.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I think the answer is that conventional slaughterhouses and other facilities for slaughtering animals were being used where a horse had to be put down. One of those facilities was engaged in doing that on a temporary basis. We can ask for an update on that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If a horse is injured in a racing yard and has to be put down, in most situations, that will happen on site. In most cases, they will not go elsewhere. It is probably the non-racing ones that we are looking at here.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The reason I raise the traceability issue is that my understanding is that all horses in the State are microchipped, or are supposed to be. Many of these are coming from within the horseracing sector, so one would think they would be microchipped. The Department needs to say why they are not. If one is putting in place a microchip system, it is a bit like having car tax without having a car tax registration system. Why would you have it? What is the use of it? I would like answers, setting out why it is not in place and what progress is being made to put one in place, to be put in correspondence.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does the Chair remember that in the programme, they were talking about double chips and every horse having a chip?
Every horse has a chip and passports are required for horses moving around. Maybe it is just within the racing area. I do not know why you would export them otherwise. I cannot understand why the traceability issue is such a big one.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am inclined to figure out what has happened here. Surely the microchip and passport system would say who the owner is and give their address. It is not as if it is 20 horses. It is 20,000 that have gone and my understanding is that we do not know where. It does not appear there is database. What progress has been made on putting one in place? Why is there not a database in place? When is a full database for the registration of horses expected? The Department needs to answer this. I know that with cattle it is really strict.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We need to get the Ann and Barry version of this with regard to what is in place, where the deficiency is and what the Department is trying to do to now.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is the nub and crooks of it. The Deputy had a question as well as on what slaughtering facilities are being used now. We will ask about that as well.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No. R2832 was received from the Office of the Chairman of the OPW and is dated 30 September. It is a response to the committee's invitation for a meeting on 28 October 2024. I want to briefly mention that at last week's meeting, it was agreed in private session to schedule a meeting with the OPW on 8 October. The OPW has come back in the meantime and has said the date is not suitable as it has other engagements, etc., and is proposing the alternative date of Tuesday, 22 October. I propose to note and publish the correspondence. Is that agreed?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I propose that we proceed with the meeting with the OPW on 22 October. Is that agreed?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that the earliest we can have the meeting?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy might recall the previous correspondence where the OPW said it had engagements and multi-stakeholder meetings and could not extrapolate itself from these too easily. Hopefully, we will still be here. It is on 22 October and it is agreed. That concludes consideration of correspondence for today.
We will move on to the work programme. A draft work programme discussion document has been circulated to members. It is displayed on the screen. Next week we will engage with the Land Development Agency in relation to the 2023 financial statements. On 17 October, we will engage with the Charities Regulator regarding the 2023 financial statements. Last week it was agreed to also schedule a meeting with the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities on this date but the CRU has indicated that key personnel are not available on that date. Do members wish to schedule a meeting with the CRU on another date?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will endeavour to do that. Bear in mind that on Tuesday, 22 October, it looks like we will have that meeting with the OPW. On Thursday, 24 October, the same week, we will engage with the Health Service Executive regarding the 2023 financial statements. Specific areas of interest flagged for this meeting will include the roll-out of integrated financial management system, IFMS, non-compliant procurement, staffing and remuneration and capacity of University of Limerick Hospitals Group. We agreed previously, and it came up again at a recent meeting, not to have too wide of an agenda with the HSE and that we would try to keep a focus on those issues. Last week it was agreed to schedule a meeting on 7 November with Children’s Health Ireland and the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. I do not know if we have any indication as to whether we have been successful or not in scheduling that. There is nothing back on that yet but we will keep members apprised of this as I know they are anxious about it.
Members will be aware that the C and AG published his report on the accounts of the public services on Monday of this week. The report contains 24 chapters, highlighting issues for further consideration by this committee. It is proposed that we include chapter 4 on adapting flood risk management to climate change impacts and chapter 5 on delivery of rapid build housing on the agenda for our upcoming meeting with the OPW. In light of that report, is that agreed?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The report looks very comprehensive and useful. It is also proposed to add chapter 17 on the HSE’s integrated financial management system to the agenda for our meeting with the HSE on 24 October. Is that agreed?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have five free meeting slots in November and December and, taking into account the C and AG’s annual report and areas of interest to members, I ask them to consider which bodies to prioritise for these slots, for example, the Department of Finance, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, the Department of Social Protection or the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.
If the committee can bear with me, there was something I had written-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There was the Department of housing and LIHAF-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will make two suggestions on that. There are five free meeting slots available in November and December. I am taking the Taoiseach at his word. He says there will be no election until after St. Patrick's Day. We have to make provision for November and December. I suggest that if members are agreeable, we include the Department of Education. Issues have arisen, particularly in the C and AG's report, relating to protecting the State's investment in schools - in other words, the capital investment taxpayers are putting in. There are a number of other issues.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Prefab accommodation and school transport are two issues I am concerned about. I thought we had seen the back of long-term prefab accommodation.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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With the prefab accommodation, the modular developments need to be included in that. The modular units being used sound like a good idea but if I am correct, I recently saw the cost of one escalating by approximately 300%. I am not sure of the detail. I will bring in Deputy Verona Murphy in one minute. She is online.
I wish to include education and deal with the issue of the State's investment in capital infrastructure, as well as protecting that in terms of the position of the patron and the State. I suggest that at some point in the future, we also look at including transport, in particular the rail projects. It is bonkers what is going on there.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Some of that is to do with political decisions as opposed to-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Projects have been taken to design stage, which are really at the end of the design stage and ready to go, but they are pulled then. It is not the fault of those who went through that process. It is a political decision.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with Deputy Murphy. The only point is that €185 million has been put into the MetroLink to get it to this point. I understand there is a lot of work to be done, including a lot of studies, examinations, planning and design but €185 million seems incredible.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If I remember correctly, there were buildings purchased because there was a line. Am I correct on that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I apologise but the bell is ringing here in my office. Regarding the Department of Education, if we are looking to discuss school transport, which I absolutely am, can we have a representative from the Department of Transport, so that we can have proper engagement on this? Ultimately, it is tendered to Bus Éireann, so we cannot have proper engagement without having both of bodies in.
We do not need the Secretary General of the Department of Transport but we need a representative.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will add that matter. As I said, we have five free slots and these are some of the issues or bodies that we want brought before us. Members can reflect on whether there is anything else and we can prioritise. The secretariat will endeavour to see if we can fill those slots for November and December.
That concludes our consideration of the work programme for today. The last item of our public agenda is any other business. Do members wish to raise any other matter in public?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The committee will now go into private session as we have some work to do on a report.