Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 26 June 2024
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine
Welfare, Treatment and Traceability of Horses: Discussion
5:00 pm
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Is Senator Boylan on campus?
Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I am not and so I will not be participating if that is okay.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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She may listen in but cannot ask questions if she is not on campus.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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People should be aware that there are no audio files of Teams meetings. However, there is no guarantee for members that the meeting will not be recorded by somebody else in error. Members participating from outside Leinster House are advised that they cannot participate when they are offline.
Before we begin, I bring everyone's attention to the notice on privilege. Witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that they have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. They should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse comments should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside of the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses, outside the proceedings held by the committee, of any matters arising from the proceedings.
The purpose of the meeting is to examine the welfare and treatment of horses and their traceability. I welcome Mr. Michael Sheahan, deputy chief veterinary officer, One Health, One Welfare; Ms Frances MacAodhain, principal officer, animal identification and movement division; Dr. Avril Hobson, senior superintending veterinary inspector; veterinary and public health policy division; and Dr. James Choiseul, Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine; Ms Suzanne Eade, chief executive officer; Mr. John Osborne, director of equine welfare and bloodstock; and Mr. Jason Morris, director of strategy, Horse Racing Ireland, HRI; and Mr. Denis Duggan and Dr. Sonja Egan, head of breeding, innovation and development, Horse Sport Ireland.
I will allow witnesses from the three organisations five minutes to read their opening statements and then we will proceed to questions and answers. We will start with the Department, followed by Horse Racing Ireland and then Horse Sport Ireland.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I thank the Chairman for this invitation to address the committee on the topic of welfare and treatment of horses and their traceability. I am joined this evening by my colleagues James Choiseul, Avril Hobson, Frances MacAodhain.
The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine takes its overarching responsibility for animal welfare policy in Ireland and for the welfare of horses most seriously. I welcome the opportunity to demonstrate our ongoing commitment in this regard. The committee’s request to discuss this topic with reference to equine traceability is also welcome. Traceability is an important component which supports animal health, animal welfare and the integrity of the food chain. I can share with the committee the ongoing efforts of the Department, in parallel with the wider EU approach, to improve traceability in the equine sector.
I am conscious that our discussion is framed by the recent RTÉ programme and the shocking and distressing footage that was broadcast showing appalling mistreatment of horses. The public reaction to the scenes broadcast has understandably been one of universal revulsion. The Department shares this view and condemns any mistreatment of horses. As I have said elsewhere, the footage was some of the most sickening I have ever seen. The Department has commenced an investigation into these matters with the support of An Garda Síochána and we can assure the members of the committee and the general public that the full force of the law will apply to those responsible.
It is understandable that scenes like those broadcast prompt people to question how this happened and whether the Department, as the regulator, should itself have identified such activity. This is something we have been reflecting on quite a bit since the programme.
Unfortunately, despite making very significant progress in the area of animal welfare over recent decades, ill-treatment of and cruelty to animals continues in our society. The Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 was and is very progressive legislation. The Department has in excess of 200 officers authorised under the Act who, during their work, carry out welfare inspections around the country and are out on the ground every day, providing advice and support to the keepers of animals. Members of An Garda Síochána and the Customs and Excise Service are authorised officers, and under a service level agreement, inspectors of the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, ISPCA, Dublin Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, DSPCA, Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, and Rásaiocht Con Éireann are also authorised under the Act. Local authorities are also empowered to appoint authorised officers under the Act.
Authorised officers regularly carry out inspections and investigations, and work towards ensuring the welfare of animals and legislative compliance, with interventions ranging from advice to warning and legal compliance notices. When necessary, legal sanctions are imposed and prosecutions are taken when other efforts to ensure compliance have failed or there is blatant disregard for an animal’s welfare. Since the Animal Health and Welfare Act came into operation in March 2014, 162 individuals have been successfully prosecuted. This figure includes 18 equine-related prosecutions. A number of other investigations are ongoing.
In 2021, the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, launched Working Together for Animal Welfare, Ireland’s Animal Welfare Strategy 2021-2025. This is our first stand-alone animal welfare strategy, and it reflects the significant animal welfare commitments in the programme for Government.
The Department is committed to supporting the welfare of equines and provides support to a number of urban horse projects nationwide. This gives effect to the programme for Government commitment to develop additional urban horse welfare programmes, working with local authorities, charities and community stakeholders. These projects have proven very successful and are aimed specifically at equine welfare and marginalised communities. The projects can foster community leadership and education in responsible horse ownership.
These projects greatly benefit the welfare of equines and of young people from disadvantaged communities or backgrounds. From 2015 to date, a total of more than €1.86 million has been spent on urban horse projects by the Department, with €350,000 allocated for these projects for 2024. I am familiar with a few of those projects.
In particular, I had the opportunity to see the Moyross project in Limerick and the Cherry Orchard project in action. I was very impressed with what I saw in both of those over recent years.
Last December, the Minister provided some €6 million to support the work of 101 animal welfare charities. Of this, €3.3 million went to 24 organisations that have activities that directly support horse or equid welfare. This funding recognises the importance of the role such charities play in education, awareness raising and the dissemination of knowledge to improve animal welfare. The supports provided to these organisations help with actions focused on preventing poor horse welfare outcomes. Prevention is better than cure. However, the work of these charities and our own officers shows that there is still much work to be done in better ensuring the welfare of animals across our society. For example, of the 1,609 animal welfare complaints received by our animal welfare helpline in 2023, 635 related to horses. All of the complaints that come in by phone or email are followed up by our inspectors.
With regard to the specifics highlighted on the "RTÉ Investigates” programme, members of the committee will now be aware that the majority of the recorded footage took place in a building adjacent to, but not part of, the approved Shannonside slaughter plant. This holding is separate from the Department-approved slaughter facility where the Department had a permanent presence during the day on which animals were being slaughtered. This is usually one day per week. This building was not the slaughterhouse lairage where the Department inspected and carried out its ante mortem checks on the animals being presented for slaughter. It was not subject to the specific regulations that govern slaughter plants. However, it was subject to general animal welfare regulations that apply to all holdings where animals are kept. We have asked RTÉ to provide the Department with all footage and any other evidence it may have, and arrangements for the handover of the footage are in train. As you would expect, we are getting full co-operation from RTÉ.The events witnessed are now subject to a live criminal investigation and I can assure members that the investigation will be thorough.
It may be helpful to the committee if I explain in detail the controls that are applied by the Department at the slaughterhouse. The Department staff in the slaughter plant take their responsibility to protect the food chain and ensure animal welfare extremely seriously and carry out their official controls as required under food and feed hygiene law. On the day of slaughter, Department staff, including a veterinary inspector and at least two technical officers, attend the plant from early morning. One technical officer carries out hygiene checks in advance of slaughter. The veterinary inspector and other technical officer, with the assistance of an employee of the food business, undertakes a detailed ante mortem examination of each horse on an individual basis. This involves: scanning the horse for a microchip; cross-checking the microchip with its identification document or passport; checking the markings of the horse against the passport; evaluating the age of the animal; checking the medicines page of the passport to ensure that the animal has not been excluded from the food chain; cross-checking the microchip against the central equine database to ensure the animal has not been excluded from the food chain; checking and evaluating the food chain information provided by the animal keeper; and finally undertaking a veterinary assessment of each animal from an animal health and animal welfare perspective to determine its suitability for slaughter for human consumption.
If the animal passes all ante mortemchecks, it moves forward for slaughter, at which time post mortemexaminations are carried out by a veterinary inspector, samples are taken for trichinella testing and, where relevant, for checks for residues as part of the national residue control plan. Further checks on the microchip are carried out and the piece of the carcase in the neck area in which the microchip is located is removed and sent for destruction. Further verification checks on age may be performed at this stage. If all checks are passed successfully, the carcases are passed for human consumption. If any checks fail at any stage, the carcases are rejected, excluded from the food chain and sent forward as animal by-products.
Turning to the overarching issue of traceability, our equine traceability system operates within the requirements of and is fully in compliance with EU law. In recognition of the importance of traceability to equine health, equine welfare and the integrity of the food chain, the Department has placed significant focus on improving equine traceability in recent years. There has been a number of significant advances over the last ten years, including the introduction of a central equine database in 2013 and a range of improved security features on equine passports in 2014, such as holograms, etc. In 2014, the Department made it a legal requirement to register all premises where equines are kept, so we now have a register of approximately 29,000 premises where equines are kept. In 2021, the first equine census was carried out and this was repeated in 2022 and 2023. There is now a portal to check the validity of equine microchips or passport numbers, and that was launched in 2023. Also in 2023, the Department provided and made available significant funding to the passport-issuing organisations to support the development and introduction of e-passports, which will help to simplify the updating of information relating to the movement of equines. It is an initiative we are very supportive of.
The Department acknowledges that our work on equine traceability is far from over, but these developments, particularly the ones relating to technology and e-passports, will continue to move equine traceability forward. Notwithstanding all the improvement and advances, the “RTÉ Investigates” programme prompts us in the Department to critically examine what more needs to be done. While the appalling abuse of animals witnessed is clearly a national issue, the questions posed about the robustness and effectiveness of the EU traceability system, which is considered among the best in world, is a broader issue. It is clear that we need to work with the EU Commission and other member states to further improve this system.
The EU fraud and food network was due to have a meeting today and I can confirm that meeting took place. A number of us attended and contributed to that meeting. We can give an overview of what happened at the meeting later, if time allows. Considerable progress has been made over the past decade at national and EU levels in tightening up on equine traceability, and I have outlined some of those measures. The recent programme has shown us and our EU colleagues that we need to do more, and we will. Again, the meeting today highlighted that this is a problem in a number of EU member states. There is a fallibility of the system when criminals are determined to beat it.
Considerable progress has also been made over the last decade in dealing with the significant unwanted horse problems we had. The scale of the unwanted horse problem, which is a significant factor underlying horse welfare issues, is now considerably smaller than it was a decade ago. The number of stray or abandoned horses seized by local authorities has fallen considerably over the past decade, from just under 5,000 in 2013 to approximately 400 in 2023. There are a number of reasons for this very significant decrease in unwanted horses, but at least some credit must go the various horse welfare organisations which have done great work in helping to reduce indiscriminate horse breeding, which was a major cause of the problem. The welfare groups, supported by the Department, have worked to educate horse owners to try to steer them away from indiscriminate breeding, but they have also provided very practical support, by organising subsidised horse castration clinics, often with subsidised horse microchipping and passporting as well. These initiatives have had a real, lasting and positive impact on the unwanted horse situation in this country. While I emphasise that the scale of the unwanted horse problem is a lot less than it was, I am conscious that there are still plenty of problems with unwanted horses. I am familiar with problems in Tipperary, Limerick, Cork and elsewhere. It is not that the problem has gone away, but the scale of it is a lot less than it was.
I hope that I have given members of the committee an overview of the Department’s activities in support of horse welfare and the improvements in equine traceability. I will conclude by restating the Department’s commitment to improving horse welfare and traceability. We are determined to take whatever lessons we need to from the RTÉ programme and use this as a catalyst for positive change for how we regulate horses in Ireland. We would be happy to answer any questions.
Ms Suzanne Eade:
I am very grateful for the opportunity to meet with the joint committee this evening to discuss the topics of equine welfare and traceability. Joining me are Horse Racing Ireland’s director of equine welfare and bloodstock, Mr. John Osborne, and director of strategy, Mr. Jason Morris. As members are aware, HRI is a commercial semi-State body responsible to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and was established under the Horse and Greyhound Act 2001.
HRI is responsible for the overall administration, governance, development, and promotion of the Irish horseracing industry and we proudly do so on an all-island basis. Ireland is seen internationally as a leader in horse racing and breeding, and thoroughbreds that are owned, bred and trained in Ireland compete at the highest level on the world stage. We have seen several examples of Irish success abroad this year. Irish-trained horses prevailed in two of the world’s greatest races, namely, the Derby and the Oaks at Epsom. An Irish-based trainer, Willie Mullins, became the first non-British-based trainer in 70 years to win the UK champion trainer’s title. There were ten Irish-trained winners from five trainers at Royal Ascot last week. The meeting was also a triumph for Irish breeding, with 21 of the 35 winners bred here in Ireland.
The industry generates €2.4 billion to the economy annually and supports more than 30,000 jobs directly and indirectly, many of them in rural communities.
This means that the Government’s annual investment into the industry provides a 35-fold return to the economy.
I want to address the recently broadcast "RTÉ Investigates" programme. HRI, its board, chairman and staff, were deeply disgusted and appalled at what we saw in the programme. The behaviour depicted was abhorrent and is absolutely not the experience of the majority of the 30,000 people who make their livelihood every day in the horse racing and breeding industry in Ireland. We welcome the swift response from the Department of agriculture. We will fully support any An Garda and Department investigations, and eagerly await their conclusion. We hope that the full rigour of the law is applied to anyone found to have behaved illegally towards horses.
Equine safety and care are our top priority. HRI’s welfare department focuses its work under three key pillars - standards, safety nets and traceability. Our budget accounts for €7 million annual expenditure on welfare in 2024. This is in addition to our welfare-related capital projects in recent years such as CCTV provision on all racecourses, traceability enhancements within our racing system, RÁS, together with grant aid for racecourses for welfare measures. In May, we announced a further €1 million funding in the next phase of a capital development scheme to further enhance equine safety at our racecourses. We fund the IHRB’s integrity services, which include both race day and out-of-competition vet inspections, and its best-practice anti-doping programme. We work with organisations such as the Irish Horse Welfare Trust and Treo Eile which connect, support and promote thoroughbreds as they transition after their racing careers. We provide education and training to industry participants and held our first equine welfare symposium in May, which brought together stakeholders from across the sector to discuss the way ahead for equine safety and care. We consider the sharing of information, experience and best practice across the entire industry to be key to achieving excellence in equine welfare. Whole-of-life traceability is an ongoing priority, and we will continue to work with our colleagues in the Department and across all areas of the horse industry to enhance our systems and protocols, many of which in the thoroughbred sector are already class leading.
In 2021, Ireland was the first EU country to implement e-passports for thoroughbreds, which contain five layers of identification, including the thoroughbred’s microchip number and DNA analysis. The first phase of a central traceability system for thoroughbreds has been built by Weatherbys, the only organisation authorised in Ireland and UK to issue passports to thoroughbreds. The next phase will connect different strands of the thoroughbred data in one central database so we can identify a horse’s whereabouts at key life cycle events. We are working with the equine liaison group, organised through the Department, on joined-up process mapping of all horse management, movement and control to enhance our traceability and plug any potential data gaps. Our vision for the next four years, as set out our in strategic plan for 2024 to 2028, is to nurture success and inspire participation in the racing and breeding industries. We will continue to prioritise welfare to cultivate a culture of zero compromise in equine safety and care standards.
A vibrant and well-resourced Irish Equine Centre is a key pillar of equine welfare status, and we hope to see widespread support, including in these Houses, for further investment in its future. Our financial ambition is to increase the industry’s economic reach to €3 billion by 2028. We aim to deliver on major capital projects, which includes a people campus to service the needs of the wider thoroughbred industry and provide a pipeline of future human talent. The development of the new all-weather track at Tipperary Racecourse will create domestic opportunities at all levels of the industry as well as providing the marketplace for Irish racing to grow its annual foreign direct investment, currently estimated to be more than €550 million per annum. HRI will continue to invest in the development of facilities at all 26 racecourses, spread across 17 counties on the island, which are very much at the heart of their urban and rural communities. I am happy to address any questions members may have.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
I thank the Chair and members of committee for the invitation to discuss the welfare and treatment of horses and their traceability today. I am the chief executive of Horse Sport Ireland. I am joined by my colleague Dr. Sonja Egan, head of breeding, innovation and development. Like colleagues in the Department and in HRI, Horse Sport Ireland unequivocally condemns the practices surrounding the abhorrent treatment of horses outlined in the recent "RTÉ Investigates" documentary. The horse abuse in welfare and traceability that we witnessed has no place in our industry or our sports. There is also no place in society for the mistreatment of horses, or any other animals, nor is there a place for the use of animals for any criminal intent. Both the horrific welfare abuses witnessed in the documentary, and the blatant forging of microchips to match passports are grotesque abuses of horses and food chain integrity. Horse Sport Ireland welcomes the full investigation by the Department of agriculture, An Garda and other relevant authorities, into the troubling issues highlighted by the programme. We have offered our full assistance to any such investigation.
It may be helpful to the committee to understand the role of Horse Sport Ireland within the equine sector. HSI was established in 2008 by the then Minister for sport, John O’Donoghue and then Minister for agriculture, Joe Walsh. Our role is to manage, develop, and promote horse sports and the breeding of sport horses in Ireland, which we do in three ways. First, we are the national governing body for equestrian sport and oversee various equestrian disciplines, including show jumping, eventing, dressage, and para-equestrian sport. We also represent the interests of Irish equestrian sports at international level as the recognised national federation member of our governing body, the International Equestrian Federation, FEI. We are also recognised by Sport Ireland and Sport Northern Ireland. Second, we are the operator of five studbooks. The Irish sport horse and Irish draught are two of the best known, along with three smaller studbooks. The Irish sport horse is renowned globally as a top-quality sport horse and is specifically highly sought after in eventing and jumping. In its role as a studbook operator, HSI works with breeders to improve breeding practices and is the passport issuing authority for those studbooks. As a passport issuing organisation, PIO, we provide passports for those studbooks, along with a number of other Irish-based organisations and private companies, including three in the North. Third, we are the provider of national equine breeding services. HSI operates that programme under to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We have been operating it since the inception of HSI in 2008 and was recently tendered by the Department in 2022. HSI administers almost 30 different breeding schemes to encourage breed improvement and genetic gain across all sport horse studbooks.
Overall, HSI plays a crucial role in the development and success of equestrian sports in Ireland, supporting both athletes and the equine industry. HSI receives just less than €6.5 million in annual funding from the State comprising approximately €1.8 million from Sport Ireland, €4.5 million from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and a further €1.5million in commercially-generated income. With all of those roles, it is crucial for committee members to understand that at no stage does Horse Sport Ireland perform a regulatory role for the sport horse sector. In the context of equine welfare and traceability, our main role is as one of seven passport issuing organisations across the sector. As mentioned, we are the PIO for five studbooks, the largest being the Irish sport horse studbook, which is second in size nationally to Weatherby’s general studbook for thoroughbreds, as Ms Eade mentioned. Across the studbooks we operate, HSI registers in total approximately 8,000 equines annually, which we estimate to be roughly one-third of all horses registered in the State.
Aside from studbook documentation, horses can be issued with what are known as identity documents. An identity document is a non-studbook document, which can be issued by HSI or Leisure Horse Ireland in the Republic. An identity document, also known as breeding and production books, may or may not have breeding recorded where DNA testing is not mandatory for these documents. The passports issued by HSI and other passport issuing organisations adhere to EU animal health laws and are overseen by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.
The security features in those passports include the marking charts completed by veterinarians, security paper, holographic identification on certain pages, embossed stamps and seals, and security rivets, which cannot be removed, and relevant veterinary and studbook stamps. These features combined make a passport that has been tampered with very easy to identify. We have brought along sample passports for any committee member who wishes to see at first hand the security features in them.
At the start of the foal registration process, all studbook passports require a hair sample to be taken for DNA verification, and a marking chart is also completed. A registered veterinarian is required to take the hair sample and sign the completed marking chart. The veterinarian is responsible for ensuring that he or she takes the correct hair sample and identifies any markings on the horse by completing the marking chart, which ultimately forms part of the horse’s passport for life.
There has been significant commentary in the two weeks since the RTÉ documentary about the need for digital passports. We are very pleased to inform the committee that Horse Sport Ireland is in the final stages of testing and rolling out a new e-passports system, funded by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. In time, a digital e-passport could contain additional security features, such as annual photographs of the horse, as well as the usual features, such as marking charts. The use of photographs is something that World Horse Welfare, the international equine welfare charity, has advocated.
In the RTÉ documentary, we witnessed fraudulent behaviour by people who sought creative ways to circumvent the system. It was reported by RTÉ that the individuals purchased microchips with numbers to match pre-existing passports. In effect, tampering with the microchip and the horse was easier than tampering with the physical passport. We also saw in the RTÉ documentary that one individual purchased studbook passports from the Northern Irish Horse Board. To do this, a marking chart is required to be completed by a veterinarian and submitted to that board so it can issue the passport.
I wish to return to the fact that Horse Sport Ireland is not the regulator. To give a flavour of some of the movements at international level, our international governing body, the International Equestrian Federation, FEI, is considering a very strong and robust response to general issues with equine welfare that have emerged in recent years. In the main, these issues have been to do with social licence and training methods that may be substandard. In response to concerns regarding social licence, the FEI established an ethics and welfare commission in 2022. It reported at the end of 2023. The FEI and member national federations such as Horse Sport Ireland have formal roles during competition; however, the FEI is taking action for the other 23 hours of the day outside competition.
The IHRB recently presented the licensing, regulatory and welfare frameworks overseen by IHRB in racing to the FEI. That seems to be the direction of travel the FEI is pursuing. The United States Equestrian Federation has taken a lead in recent days by updating its own national rules to include a greater focus on equine welfare and greater power for it to inspect yards, trainers and coaches outside competition. In an Irish setting, we do not have the resources, and therefore additional resources would be required to ensure that an adequately resourced welfare and traceability regime is in place in the sport horse sector. In the near future, we will be required by our international bodies to have such a regime in place. We have neither the resources, the powers nor the remit to license yards, undertake inspections or enforce regulations.
The offensive practices we saw in the RTÉ programme do not reflect the day-to-day reality of the equine sector in Ireland. It is important for committee members to understand that the vast majority of equine breeders, owners, trainers and athletes place equine welfare at the very heart of what they do every day. Many actually take better care of their horses than of themselves. It is essential that any allegations of illegal activity be fully investigated by the appropriate authorities. If such allegations are proven, the individuals in question should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I thank the committee again for the invitation to appear before it. My colleague Dr. Sonja Egan and I will be happy to address any questions members may have.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Before we hear from members, I want to make a few points as Chair. To say the “RTÉ Investigates” programme was disturbing would be an understatement. To see the way horses were treated was horrific in the extreme. As a country that prides itself on its horse racing industry and horse sport industry, Ireland must have suffered reputational damage if an abattoir like the one in question was allowed to operate under its jurisdiction. The horses were destined for the food chain. There is also collateral damage to our reputation as food exporters. When we allow something like what happened at the slaughter plant to happen, it definitely does reputational damage to our green image and reputation as producers of top-quality food. Therefore, there are many implications. I felt down by what I saw on the programme and how it was allowed to happen under our watch.
Before I refer to specific items, I want to read something Mr. Sheahan said to this committee on 20 July 2021:
I am happy to say we are very satisfied with how the slaughter plant here operates, or how the plants operated in the past. They are operated and regulated in much the same way as beef or sheep slaughter plants. We have a full-time official Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine veterinarian present at all times when slaughter is taking place. Ante and post-mortem inspection is carried out and temporary veterinary inspectors carry out the post-mortem inspection, supported by technical staff. We have very detailed guidelines as to how the slaughter plant operates and, in fact, we have a 51-page standard operating procedure detailing every aspect of how the horses are taken in, the documentary and identity checks, the ante-mortem and post-mortem and so on.
This was said to the committee three years ago during the Covid pandemic, so Mr. Sheahan would not have been present in the room. Relating this statement to the footage we saw this night two weeks ago and saying the Department is extremely disappointed that what happened was allowed to happen in a slaughter plant will take an awful lot of explaining to this committee.
It has been stated that the lairage was outside the jurisdiction of the plant. I cannot understand that; it defies explanation. In any factory I was ever in, Department officials had full access to the lairage. There would be a veterinarian, or at least a Department official, always present in the lairage. That some of the scenes we saw in the programme – including a mare foaling in the lairage while waiting for slaughter, the foal then being dragged out dead and then the mare being dragged out dead, in addition to other horses being dragged out dead – could happen under the Department’s watch is extremely disappointing.
There are several other questions I want to ask. I have asked them before but have never got answers. However, the day of our questions not being answered is now over. How many horses in this country are not microchipped? A number of years ago, we heard a percentage of 18% or 19%. We have been told that horse censuses have been carried out since. However, how can we have any confidence in a system in which a significant percentage of the horses have no identification?
In my part of the country, there have been three road accidents involving horses in the past couple of months. The three horses were either injured or killed in those accidents and, more importantly, occupants of the cars were seriously injured. None of the three horses was microchipped. There are large herds of horses in the vicinity that are let go unchecked. How many horses are exported live from this country? Have we a record of it? The programme the other night highlighted that many horses are being exported as car parts. It seemed to me that it is possible to take horses without any identification from this country to Northern Ireland, get identification for them and then proceed to have them slaughtered elsewhere or sold for another pursuit on the Continent.
How many horses were killed in the plant in Kildare last year? Are all the passports accounted for?
What happens to those passports? For cattle, your card is handed up when your animal is slaughtered. Have we a full record of how many horses were slaughtered there and their passports?
The post mortem is done by a veterinarian. It baffles me how anyone could do a post mortem on a horse and not find that there was a second microchip in the horse. If a second microchip is inserted, surely any credible post mortem would find it.
I do not want to hold up the meeting but on traceability, when you sell a horse, why is the record of that movement not automatically recorded? We are in an age of modern technology but on the traceability of horses, we are still back 50 years, in the 20th century. We are most definitely not availing of the technology out there. It has gone past the point of no return for us to get confidence in traceability and assurances. We need to move our use of technology on immeasurably. Things that were reported happening in that programme cannot be allowed to continue.
I think I speak for the entire committee when I say that every one of us here is extremely disappointed with what has happened. I will not leave a tooth in it. We are laying the blame at the Department’s door because this plant was under the supervision of the Department and the job was not done correctly. It is doing huge reputational damage to us. We cannot put the genie back in the bottle but, for certain, the assurances we got three years ago have proved to be empty promises. This committee intends to very much focus on these issues. We have focused on them in recent years but unfortunately the assurances that we received, etc., have proved to be false and we will not let that continue.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I agree with a lot of what the Chair said on reputational damage and all that kind of thing. That goes without saying. What I said in 2021 I said on the basis that I had been in the plant. It is a small plant killing relatively small numbers of horses. What I saw with my own eyes in the plant was an operation with horses in relatively good condition coming in, going into the lairs we supervise. To clarify, the place shown in the footage is not the lairage of the plant. It is a separate shed beside it. I know people will say that is splitting hairs but there is an actual lairage within the plant, the same way there is in every other beef slaughter plant or sheep slaughter plant, which the horses come into on the day of slaughter, that we do supervise, scan the horses and so on. If I had not seen the footage that we saw last week I would not have believed what was happening in the shed next door was happening. Like most members of the committee, I am from a farm. I have been working with animals all my life. I have seen a lot of bad welfare things. A lot of bad welfare stuff crosses my desk as part of my job because with 130,000 farms out there things do go wrong but the welfare cases, even the very bad ones we see, are usually before of unfortunate circumstances where there is someone with mental health problems or addiction problems, say, and animals go for weeks without food or water and you end up with some catastrophes. However, this was different. I have never in my life seen what we saw on the programme, with the gratuitous violence that was being used on those horses. I have never seen it on horses but I have spent my whole life in and out of marts, factories and assembly centres and so on and I have literally never seen it. I have spoken to a lot of people since the programme and I have not met anyone who has seen that kind of behaviour. If it was not for the hidden cameras, I simply would not have believed it was possible that somebody would do that. Maybe I am naïve but I have been around animals, farmers and horse owners and I simply could not believe that somebody would do that. The programme was absolutely shocking. It was an eyeopener.
The Chair asked a few questions. He said that if there was a second microchip, surely that would ring alarm bells. It does. Since about 2016, if there are two microchips in the horse then the carcase goes in the skip. The investigation is still at an early stage but I will outline our understanding of what was happing in the programme where we saw a microchip being inserted into a horse. Every time something new crops up, we try to close that loophole. We had heard rumours that it was possible to order a microchip from say, China, for the sake of argument, to match an existing passport. We had never actually come across such a microchip but, from the programme, that is our only explanation. We saw the footage of a horse having a microchip put into it. Either that horse did not have a microchip or else they have some mechanism of killing that microchip. More than likely, it did not have a microchip, so it had a clean passport. They ordered the microchip to match the clean passport and they put that into the horse and this horse was already recorded on the database. It would appear this is how they beat the system but the investigation is at an early stage. We had some discussion at our meeting with the other countries this morning and that seems to be the consensus on the most likely explanation. That is a new development, that you can order a microchip and ask for a specific number and get a microchip delivered with that specific number to match the existing passport. As my colleague from the HSI said, it has become difficult to damper with the passport because of the holograms and all sorts of things. It is not easy to tamper with the passport. This seems to be the next trick that people have come up with, where they are ordering a microchip from wherever you can get it from. I do not know where they get the microchips but there is obviously some nefarious organisation that you can order them from. The investigation is at an early stage but that is where it looks like it is leading. We will be getting the footage from RTÉ. We do not know if this is a one-off thing or how many horses were involved. I do not know how long their hidden cameras were there. I presume they were there for some months. When we see the footage we will have some idea of how widespread the practice was but we do not know at this stage.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I asked how many horses in the country are not microchipped.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
We do not know that. We think the horse population in total is about 90,000 to 95,000. My colleague Ms MacAodhain might be better able to answer that. We do not know how many horses are not microchipped. We have a sense that the number of unidentified horses is much less than it was. I use the example of Ballinasloe fair. We did an operation with the Garda some years ago where, for the first time, gardaí set up checkpoints on the gathering for Ballinasloe fair and we accompanied them. The first year we did it, probably 10 years ago, the number of horses arriving at the fair without passports was very high. I would say 10% or 20% had passports. On the day, the approach we took, with the agreement of the Garda, was simply that we told people that if they came back next year without a passport they would be turned away and-or prosecuted. The second year we did it, the number of horses without passports was very small and, the third year, virtually no horses turned up, even in Ballinasloe, without passports. That is just one sample. Ballinasloe is a big fair and it is one sample. It is impossible to give an accurate answer about how many horses are in the country without microchips but every indication we have is that there are generally far fewer unwanted horses, abandoned horses, than there were but as the Chair will be aware, there are still plenty of problems.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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How many are being exported?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
We have figures for that. The Chair mentioned car parts and so on. I know that was mentioned in the programme and it was mentioned this morning at our meeting with EU colleagues. We are not really clear what that is about.
They talked about horses being misclassified as tractor parts or something like that. All our horses exported through Rosslare and Dublin have a health certificate. We know exactly how many there were. I do not know the figure off the top of my head but can provide those figures. We have exact figures on how many horses go out through Rosslare and Dublin.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Most of the horses that are going without traceability are not going through Rosslare or Dublin.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kerrane is next and I will stick with ten minutes because a lot of members want to contribute. If we have to have a second round of questions, we will stick to ten minutes in this round.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The voting block could be at 7 p.m. so it might be wise to have a substitute for the Chair to keep the meeting going.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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He can leave the Chair if he wants to leave at 7 p.m.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kerrane will have ten minutes.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their opening statements. Most of my questions are for the Department. First, Mr. Sheahan said he still has not received the footage. It has been two weeks and I imagine the investigation that has been launched will very much need that footage. When does he expect to receive the footage?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
There have been meetings between ourselves with RTÉ and there is no difficulty about providing the footage. There are a few legal issues RTÉ needs to sort out as regards chain of evidence, as I understand it. That has not stopped the rest of the investigation taking place. The investigation is now broader than just Shannonside Foods. Other issues cropped up during the programme and those are also the subject of Department and-or Garda investigation. We expect to get the footage shortly. There have been a few meetings about exactly the process and An Garda Síochána is very much involved.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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It was made clear by the Minister that the Department became aware of the footage before it was aired on RTÉ. That was stated on the Dáil record. On what date did Mr. Sheahan or the Department see the footage?
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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When was the Department given the indication of what would be in the programme and that it would be aired?
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Was that written correspondence from RTÉ to the Department informing it of what would be aired or what the issue was?
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Was it by email?
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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There was clearly nothing of any magnitude in that correspondence that would have constituted concern over continuing slaughtering. What I am getting at is that the shutdown happened after the programme was aired rather than on the back of the Department being informed. I take from this that the Department received very little information when RTÉ corresponded with it on 22 May.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, this is not the first time we have seen abuse of animals, via "RTÉ Investigates", abuse of animals. In July last year, we saw similar footage of horrendous abuse of calves. From a response to parliamentary questions I received form the Minister last week, I understand that evidence is still being gathered for that investigation, which is a cause for concern a year later. It would lead me to wonder how long this investigation will take. I presume it will take a lot less time because the place has been shut down and there are consequences to that. It must be embarrassing for the Department that it learned of this not for the first time, no more than the abuse of calves a year ago, on television and not via its own people on the ground.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
Yes, as I said I think earlier in reply to the Chairperson, and just to focus on the welfare abuses, if the hidden cameras had not been in there, I would never have believed what was shown on them. I grew up on a farm and have been around animals all my life. I have been in and out of marts and meat factories all my career. I have never seen anyone do what we saw on that footage. I probably would have found it hard to believe if I had not seen it on the television programme. I would have found it hard to believe that somebody would do that.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the antemortem checks that are carried out, Mr. Sheahan said in his opening statement that a number of people undertake a detailed antemortem examination, including veterinary inspectors and other technical officers. In his own words there was violence against the horses. How could it be when animals, one by one, are inspected during such a detailed examination that such violence would not have been spotted on the animals before they went to slaughter? Are records of those inspections kept in Shannonside Foods in the abattoir, specifically with regard to the antemortem checks?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
Yes, records are kept. Even though the violence we saw inflicted on the horses with pipes and sticks and whatever was horrendous, it probably would not be enough to cause damage that would be visible on the horse at antemortem inspection. Unless it was really severe and repeated, it probably would not be enough to see bruising on the carcasses or whatever. In the normal course of events, the antemortem inspection is carried out in the plant. A certain number of horses do get turned down. When I look back over the records it is mostly not for welfare issues but to do with the passport not matching the animal, difficulties in finding the chip and things like that. Animals do get picked up and do not actually pass antemortem inspections and have to be killed and go for animal byproducts and not for human consumption.
I have had detailed conversations with our vet in the plant. In the shed next door, the treatment of the horses was terrible - we have already said that - and there were some sick horses in there. There was a dying horse and all that kind of appalling stuff. From talking to our vet in the plant and from what I saw the day I was there a couple of years ago, the horses presented in the plant are in relatively good condition. They do not come into our lairage in the abattoir. They do not present sick horses. They do not present dying horses. They do not even present lame horses. I had discussions regarding lameness. They never present an animal that is severely lame. Occasionally, a horse will be presented who is very slightly lame such that it would not be fit for racing or something like that but not lame from a welfare point of view. They are quite careful or clever - whatever way you want to put it - to only present animals that in relatively good condition despite what is happening next door, which is unspeakable.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I will put my final few questions together. Obviously there are consequences now that the abattoir is shut down. It leaves people with two options - one, to abandon the horse or two, to export it. Did the Department consider the possibility of stepping in and running the show at Shannonside Foods, and running the abattoir as opposed to shutting it down? Due to the consequences of export and abandonment because the operations are shut down, I presume that means the Department will move the investigation as quickly as possible. I presume whoever is running the investigation has been given a timeframe of when it should conclude. It would be good to know that, if possible.
Mr. Sheahan made it clear there were five complaints about the premises in recent years and from what he stated at the Committee of Public Accounts meeting last week was that most, if not all, of those complaints concerned individual horses or animals. The look of them or them being skeletal or whatever was the issue was that was reported. When the Department officials went out and looked at those horses, were photographs of those horses taken at that time? Will Mr. Sheahan confirm whether the five complaints were all concerned with individual animals and not any one building?
I presume there was never a complaint about potential, possible or alleged violence on the premises?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
We did not consider taking over the running of the plant. The Department has never done such a thing. I do not know if it would make any sense or be appropriate. As the Deputy pointed out, it creates a potential problem in that it is the only slaughterhouse for horses on the island of Ireland. At the Committee of Public Accounts someone asked me about the likelihood of someone else stepping in or whether the Government or the Department could do something. At the time I said that, given the negative publicity and the toxicity around the issue of slaughtering horses, I was not sure that anybody would be rushing in to take over. However, since then, we have actually had a number of approaches to potentially provide a slaughter service for horses. I am slightly surprised at this but we have had four approaches that I am aware of and there might even be a few more. These are all credible approaches from credible people. Having said that, I do not want to give the impression that suddenly someone is going to open a slaughter plant for horses. It is one thing to express an interest in doing it and ask what would be involved, but it is another thing to bring it to fruition. However, at least it is good some credible people are inquiring about it. From the discussions I have had with a couple of them, they have genuine reasons for wanting to step in and help. We are all aware that if there is not a slaughter option - we see what happens in America - the alternative is that horses get exported and that could perhaps be a much worse outcome.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming here today. I will try not to go back over old ground. The Chair already referred to the most startling point in Mr. Sheahan's opening statement. This is the admission that nobody ever visited the building where most of this took place. It is cloaked, to some degree, by saying it was not part of the lairage, but it was covered by general animal welfare regulations that apply to all holdings where animals are kept. I grew in an idyllic rural area on the edge of a small town. To give some context, there were three women who used to walk from the town every evening. They knew nothing about farming but they used to walk down a quiet boreen. One evening they said that the cattle were lowing a lot in that slatted shed. On the second evening they asked the farmer was there something wrong with the cattle and he said no, "That's just an ould fashion they have" . However, on the third evening it was still the same and one of them went home and felt uncomfortable about it and decided to make a phone call about it. That call resulted in a major animal cruelty case. I find it astonishing that a vet and two officials visited on the day of the slaughter and nobody ever checked the building. Mr. Sheahan himself attended the premises three years ago. Has any Department official ever visited that building?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
Not that I am aware of. It will be interesting when we see the footage. As we understand it, about that building next door, typically the slaughter plant operates on a Wednesday. I think it operated for 37 days last year. As far as we understand, horses come into that shed on the evening before and then they come into our lairage in the plant on the Wednesday morning.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of my time. The Department was aware of the shed and that it was part of the operation, because the animals came into it on the previous evening. Is that correct?
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I know it is not part of the lairage but there would be an obvious expectation and understanding that the building was part of the slaughter chain. If that was the first point where the horses come in, surely somebody in the Department, during the lifetime of this horrendous operation, should have checked? Ultimately, two bodies are responsible for this - Shannonside Foods and the Department, as the regulator and overseer of this area. Nobody in the lifetime of the operation checked. Three women who knew nothing about farming and did not have veterinary degrees had enough common sense to suspect there was a problem. Is Mr. Sheahan telling me that nobody in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine thought at any stage to have a look in that building?
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That is great hindsight but, on reflection, does Mr. Sheahan think that if he had gone and looked inside that building when he visited the plant three years ago, he could have averted what happened?
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I know, but Mr. Sheahan was aware that the horses were coming from that building. I cannot understand why nobody ever suggested looking inside the building.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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We have a vote coming and we have the other two bodies here. I understand and we have seen from the Committee of Public Accounts that the other two bodies probably do not have that much of regulatory or enforcement input in respect of what happened. However, they do have a major responsibility with regard to passports. Horse Sport Ireland will know that this has been a hobby horse of mine - excuse the pun - for the lifetime of this Government. I have said it to the officials from the Department and to the Minister and all have been dismissive. We should not have this situation with horse passports. My advice to Horse Sport Ireland and Horse Racing Ireland is that they should not come back to this committee unless they have addressed the issue of passports. In 2021 Horse Racing Ireland introduced the first e-passport for horses in Europe and, three years, later we are in the first phase of a central traceability. That needs to be addressed.
I have specific questions for Horse Sport Ireland. In 2023, 75% of foals were sold with no passports.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There is a vote in the Dáil. The Senators can continue with their questions. Deputy Flaherty may resume his questioning when we return.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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The time slots are ten minutes. Senator Boyhan can begin.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming here today. Some weeks ago, I spoke in the Seanad about Horse Racing Ireland. I am very supportive of our amazing horse sports industry. I thank the witnesses for the parts they play in that. Sadly, we had the "RTÉ Investigates" programme. People, both urban and rural, including the farming community, were outraged by the unwarranted violence revealed in the programme. I salute the makers of the programme. They are looking in here tonight, by the way. They are clearly conscious that this meeting is going on. Of course we have to be careful in that criminal and regulatory investigations are going on and we cannot undermine these in any way. I will make my remarks keeping this in mind. We do not know the extent of the surveillance undertaken by the makers of the "RTÉ Investigates" programme or how they were assisted internally or externally by other parties. Clearly, they engaged and had access to a number of premises and places. We do not know how much more information the makers of the programme have. There may very well be a follow-up investigation or further evidence may come to light. I welcome the fact that an investigation is going on; that is really important.
We have a wonderful industry and an obligation to protect it in terms of both rural development and international reputation. We hope that will continue. We have a challenge about what is to happen to horses that finish a life in sport or whatever. That is a challenge that is coming out of this.
From the Department's point of view, I want to be careful about what I say but it is a disgrace. It would not be tolerated in any other sector. I do not know what ministerial or departmental investigations are going on but serious questions have to be asked of staff in the Department of agriculture. In the private sector, if someone had a role as overseer, inspector or investigator and failed as dismally as the Department appears to have failed, they would be sacked. It is about accountability. People have to consider their positions in the Department of agriculture, quite frankly. I want to get that message out loud and clear. After all these investigations, some people have to accept they failed and look at the door. That is an important point to make.
Mr. Sheahan appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts and clearly accepted under cross-examination that he had responsibility for the welfare of animals and that it was within his remit. That is not in dispute. He volunteered that to the Committee of Public Accounts. What is his view, on reflection? I am shocked that he is shocked. He told the committee today that if he had not seen the footage, he would not believe it had happened. He is a professional and is saying that. Is he seriously telling us that at no time did he have any idea or suspicion something like this was going on?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
To pick up on the point about "Prime Time", I echo what the Senator says. It was a fantastic piece of work by "Prime Time" and was public sector broadcasting at its best. I highly commend Conor Ryan, whom I do not know, and whoever else was involved in making the programme.
I reiterate what I said earlier. I grew up on a farm, have worked with animals all my life and have never seen anything like what we saw on the footage of the programme. Of people I have spoken to since, nobody else has ever seen something like that happen. I still find it hard to believe somebody would do what we saw on the programme. I can excuse that 20 years ago we still had sticks in the marts and people would occasionally use the stick too much, with a view to making animals move in a particular direction or whatever-----
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Sorry to cut across Mr. Sheahan but I am conscious of time. Can I ask a few questions? I thank Mr. Sheahan for that. Given he had an oversight role in this, is he part of the ongoing investigation? Is it an investigation into himself, effectively? He is in the Department and the spotlight is on him and his officials. Is he party to this investigation or is there a stand-alone unit in the Department or externally reviewing Mr. Sheahan's subdivision within the Department's role in these matters? Can he be concise in his response?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
Within the Department is a specific stand-alone division called investigations division. It used to be called the special investigations unit. It takes the lead but obviously the Garda is significantly involved in this investigation as well. There is also a European dimension and the equivalent of-----
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Is Mr. Sheahan directly involved in these investigations?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Has Mr. Sheahan stepped aside from that, given the potential element of conflict?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
It is not a question of stepping aside. The investigation is led by the investigations division. By and large, it has a hands-off approach but asks us questions when it needs to. For governance reasons, a deliberate decision was made a couple of years ago that the division would report to a separate-----
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is grand. That reassurance is all I want.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I want to ask Ms Eade about HRI. She has overall responsibility but I get the impression she has limited enforcement powers. Am I right in saying that?
Ms Suzanne Eade:
Our job is talking about the promotion of the industry so we focus on three areas for welfare. Those are standards, safety nets and traceability. There is no enforcement requirement there, so most of our time is spent on funding welfare aspects of the industry, whether that is the Irish Equine Centre or the funding that goes into the IHRB. During a racing career, it is fully funded to make sure of the welfare side. Education and training has been a bigger part of what Mr. Osborne has focused on in the last while. The safety net aspect involves funding bodies like the Irish Horse Welfare Trust and Treo Eile, a wonderful organisation that opened a few years ago. Thankfully, those people are able to rehome race horses when their career is over. That has been our focus.
On the traceability aspect, Mr. Morris just moved out of the role of racing director and he would have focused on ensuring full traceability during the racing period.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is not whole-of-life traceability.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Does Ms Eade feel she should have more powers or does she feel that is for the Department?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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In relation to Horse Sport Ireland, will Mr. Duggan touch on whole-of-life traceability and the challenges around it? How can we improve it?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Our role in that regard is as a passport-issuing authority. We see foals from birth through to notifications of end of life when horses die. In international competition, horses registered with an Irish studbook will be given an FEI passport, which we provide to the horses people will see in a month's time at the Olympics, for example. We have a certain level of visibility but we are not a regulator so it is limited.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Again, it is back to the Department. We are hearing clearly the regulatory aspects of this go back to the Department of agriculture.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses under unfortunate circumstances brought about by the programme. My party colleague, Deputy Flaherty, got into the passport issue with Horse Sport Ireland and, because of time constraints, I was to follow on from that if he was not finished. I am in an awkward position now that he is gone so I will leave that with him.
I ask Mr. Duggan to explain the following from his opening statement:
Aside from studbook documentation, horses can also be issued with what are known as identity documents. An identity document is a non-studbook document[.]
Will he explain how that works and why there is a need for duplication? Is it duplication? Can a horse live its life on just the identity document? Will Mr. Duggan talk a bit about the beginning of the programme? I know about the cruelty. I should have said, as I normally do in these situations, that I am a horse owner and breeder and a director of a rural racetrack. Any human being would find it hard to watch what was in the "Prime Time" programme but it was a bit more difficult for people who own, work with and love horses to see how they can be treated.
The programme started with the export of horses whose ages were turning out to be wrong. They were a lot older than the age they were being sold. I think “The man from RTÉ” was a song. The man from RTÉ found two microchips, just like that. How can that happen?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
My colleague, Dr. Egan, answered some of those questions. Very briefly, on the issue of age, it is my understanding that the footage to which the Senator is referring is regarding an Irish sport horse, which would have been registered as a particular age in our studbook. In effect, that horse was re-passported and sold to Sweden. I think that is the footage to which the Senator is referring. It is my understanding that in Sweden one can insure a horse once it is under a certain age. Under those circumstances, that might have been the motivation to re-passport the horse and knock a few years off its age.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It came across very clearly in the programme that the transaction was done on this side. There was another horse that again had a false identity. It was not the horse it was meant to be either. If you remember rightly, a girl fell off the horse because it was supposed to be a calm jumper and it said as such in all its breeding information and documentation. However, it was a glorified thoroughbred. She tried to jump it over small poles and fences and we all know they are not ideal for jumping. Those changes happened on this side and were made by the seller. How can that happen?
Dr. Sonja Egan:
I will come in on the point of the two horses of which the Senator is speaking. When any passport issuing authority registers a horse, they will receive signed documentation that is stamped by a vet. Any passport issuing organisation, PIO, will rely on a vet to sign and stamp a set of markings to show they have taken the markings themselves and that they have either identified or inserted a microchip. So-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I know how the system works-----
Dr. Sonja Egan:
Based on the allegation of which we are speaking in the programme - and I do not want to get too far into it because of the investigation that is under way - it appears as though a secondary microchip was inserted. That could occur in a number of ways. There is a small number of microchips that can be reabsorbed in horses. Where that is the case, the original vet will notify us that that has happened. We will then update it that there are two microchips in the system. In another case, a person might forge a vet’s signature or stamp, or the vet could be in on the alleged illegal activity-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of time. The bottom line is that the system is not working, and it can be tampered with. If I bought a 13-year-old horse but found out three months later that the horse is actually 22 years old, I would question a system in which that could happen. The system can be tampered with and it is not working. If it is not working, it needs to be fixed. Half of my time is now gone, and I am still on the subject of Horse Sport Ireland, so I need to move on. Hopefully I can come back if there is a second round.
With regard to the Department and Mr. Sheahan, I do not know where to start. I am not a vet or a mortician, but I am a farmer. I have been in abattoirs where cattle and beef carcases were rejected for very minor injuries that may have happened during loading and unloading. As I said, I am not a vet or a mortician, but what happened to those horses, as was seen on screen, would have been very evident on the carcase. I do not know how that did not happen.
I want to provide a quote from the court case in Limerick. We have been warned to be careful here, but this is in the public domain. One of Mr. Sheahan’s colleagues is quoted in the court case in Limerick as saying that the “slaughterhouse documents on the food chain status of the horses were created by Shannonside Foods Ltd. retrospectively after the kill.” I want that to be explained to me. If the paperwork that goes with carcases, horses, microchips and passports are all being done retrospectively, then there is no inspection process here at all. Horses could be killed on a Tuesday, a Monday or a Friday, and they are the carcases that the paperwork is matching up with. How can inspectors or vets oversee this situation? Their own colleague is saying in the court case that the paperwork was done retrospectively. There is therefore absolutely no inspection regime being done here at all. I am not saying this did happen, but there is nothing to say that another batch of horses were not killed the next day and that they are the carcases that matched the paperwork. There is no one checking the paperwork. In a situation where there are cattle - and I have been in abattoirs - there is a stamp on the carcase, there is a year tag, and everything is correlated before the vet or inspector leaves. No paperwork is done retrospectively. Can the Department explain to me how that is being allowed to happen? Can it confirm or deny the reservations and worries I have about the consequences of what could be going on if that was a system that was being allowed to operate?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I cannot, actually. The person who was in court on our behalf was one of the people in our investigation division, as I mentioned earlier. I read the same report that the Senator read. This referred to a bunch of horses that were killed on 5 June, if I remember rightly, and those carcases were detained on the foot of concerns about traceability. Like the Senator, I was a bit surprised about the issue of retrospective paperwork or whatever-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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With the greatest of respect, Mr. Sheahan said he is surprised or shocked, but he is a Department official. The person who said it in a court of law is a Department official. It was the Department that was inspecting this process. It is the Department that is accountable. We have heard from the other bodies, but the Department is the enforcer here. It was one of the Department’s people who said this. It is on record.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I think I am safe in saying this and that it does not interfere with the case. That appeal was decided and it is on record here before me. Mr. Sheahan says he is surprised but that is not an acceptable answer to me. I am quoting what is written in black and white before me, which states that a colleague of his is saying that the paperwork was done retrospectively-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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-----post-ops. Being surprised about this does not wash.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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As a layperson, can you see how the system is broken, if a Department vet is saying that the paperwork was being done retrospectively? This is the same Department that was supposed to be inspecting and following the horse from life through the abattoir process and making sure the carcase matched the passport and microchip.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
As the Senator knows, and as I understood, in any other meat factory I have ever been in, the food chain information comes in at the same time as the animals, such as sheep, cattle or whatever they may be. Therefore, I am afraid I do not know exactly what happened. That was certainly not my understanding of what was happening in the plant with food chain information. It was my clear understanding that it was the same as in every other plant and that the food chain information came in at the same time as the horses.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There is a breakdown in the process. There is a breakdown in the Department. There is a breakdown in communication within the Department. As I said, and I hate getting people to repeat themselves, but this is a Department official who said this, and Mr. Sheahan has said that he has seen the same statement. It is on the court record.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That is an admission by a Department official that the paperwork is being done retrospectively.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Sheahan not think he needs to go back to Agriculture House this evening and do something about this? It should not have happened. This is on his watch.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That is where I am coming from. We cannot change the past. We are all here with a view to improving the future.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
If it was the case, as it seems to have been according to what came out in court, that food chain information was being retrospectively changed or written, etc., that does not seem to make any sense. Clearly, that is not acceptable. That is not my understanding of what normally happens.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I say this with the greatest of respect and, for legal reasons, I will not mention any of the people who are involved. I am as straight a man as you would meet on a day’s walk, but if an opportunity like that was afforded to me and if it was going to be so easy to fill out paperwork after the deed is done, it would be very tempting in any walk of life. If you leave loopholes, people will jump through them. It appears to me that there were blatant gaps here, and not just loopholes. I do not know-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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-----how we are going to get to the bottom of it, but-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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What are you going to do about it? You said you have seen it yourself in black and white. It is a Department official. It should not have happened. You are shocked that it did happen, but you are agreeing that it must have happened-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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What are you going to do about it? That is the question.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There again, with the greatest of respect, if it had not been for the RTÉ programme, would that case even have happened? Would those carcases be destroyed now?
It was your job before the programme, if you were doing your job, to make sure that never happened. A knee-jerk reaction post the programme, as has been quoted somewhere else, is not good enough.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
Regarding the fact that normally the horses came from this premises next door, that place had been shut down at the time and when the slaughter happened on this day. It may be something to do with the fact that the horses slaughtered on that day came from a variety of places. That may have had something to do with the food chain information but I am only speculating. I do not know. I would have to come back. I would have to check with my investigations division colleagues and come back on that.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious that my time is up but I am also conscious that TDs are not back. Can I do my second round now?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, the Leas-Chathaoirleach wants to go in himself. I forgot about him. I reserve the right to come back.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I have one question for HRI just before we finish. When we have meetings like this coming up we get correspondence from people. I got some correspondence that HRI would have got information in 2022 about irregularities with microchips internationally, or whatever. In such a circumstance, if it is true, what does HRI do with that? As has been pointed out to Senator Boyhan, HRI is not the regulator but if it does get information from a whistleblower, for want of a better word - and I was told HRI did - what happened that information?
Mr. John Osborne:
I received an email in 2022 from a person who is involved in a group that is active in this area. It established a list of approximately 110 horses over a four-year period that were Irish in origin but were known to be in the Netherlands or had passed through the Netherlands. This was brought to my attention and I made inquiries of colleagues in the Department of agriculture who had also received similar correspondence. It was not something over which we had any particular authority or in which we had ability to intervene.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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But did HRI pass it on to the Department?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Finally, when the Department got information, did it have the authority to pursue it?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
As far as I know, the Dutch authorities had actually contacted our investigations division - I presume it was around the time of that incident - to say they had some concerns about horses from Ireland that could not get into the food chain here but had gone to the Netherlands. Some illegal activity had happened, as far as I understand, regarding the issuing of new passports to them in Holland, or something like that. The Dutch authorities asked, as I understand it, for our assistance, and our investigations division offered whatever assistance they looked for at the time. That is how I understand it.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Senator Victor Boyhan will come in before Senator Daly then.
I want to acknowledge the contributions made by Horse Sport Ireland and Horse Racing Ireland, and I have no questions for them.
I watched the investigation by Conor Ryan and the "RTÉ Investigates" programme. I watched half of it. I actually turned it off; I could not watch the other half. It was shocking stuff altogether; the worst I have ever seen in my entire life. That would be the response of the majority of our society towards it. I cannot even quantify the knock-on implications for our industry. The damage that has been done is absolutely frightening. The hearings today and the Committee of Public Accounts hearing are helpful but clarity is required on a few issues.
We might start with what investigations are actually happening at the moment, and who is leading what investigations there are into the "RTÉ Investigates" programme?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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It is the special unit within the Department of agriculture.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I would have dealt with it in another case.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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An Garda Síochána is involved, helping it with regard to that issue.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Are there any timelines regarding when this investigation will be over, or what conclusions will be brought on the issues?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Does a file then go to the DPP on that issue?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Does a file then go to the DPP from the special unit or where does the file go? Who has the responsibility for sending the file? Does the unit in the Department or An Garda Síochána send the file?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I think it depends on who is leading on it but, in general, I would imagine in this case at the moment it is being led by ourselves. I think, but I am not sure, that there is some discussion with the serious crime unit - I am probably calling it the wrong name now - in the Garda about whether it might be taking the lead rather than ourselves on certain other issues that came up in the programme. As I mentioned, apart from the national issues that came up - the welfare abuse and whatever - there is an international dimension to this as well.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
As I mentioned earlier, the meeting earlier that was organised by the European Commission, which we attended, also had representatives from law enforcement agencies, including Europol. It is playing a significant role in co-ordinating this investigation internationally, and the ramifications of it. It sought our assistance and we confirmed that we will be assisting it in every way we can.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Regarding the potential that the food chain has been breached with contaminated product, is there any investigation happening on that, and if so, who is leading that investigation?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Is there recall on all of that product?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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What potential size of product could have been exported and could have gone into the food chain? Is there e a figure on it?
Dr. Avril Hobson:
Whatever animals were slaughtered either go out in carcass form or some of them are boned out, and they are exported. We have a residue programme where we do monitoring. Obviously, there was evidence of tampering and fraud in the supply chain and that was one of the reasons we removed the-----
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Is the Department recalling all of the product that went through the abattoir?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Is it for all the product that came out of the abattoir?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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How many carcasses went through that slaughter plant that the Department is concerned about?
Dr. Avril Hobson:
It is very difficult to tell because there was evidence of fraud in the supply chain. There was evidence of some fraud but they passed through the controls. As Mr. Sheahan outlined in the opening statement, there are controls and procedures in place at the slaughter plant. There is a full antemortem and a full post mortem. We have our records of carcasses that did not pass post mortem. In our checks, there were animals that did not pass post mortem or antemortem.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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My problem here is we have no idea of how much is potentially going to be in the food chain that could be of a product that is not suitable for human consumption.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Could Dr. Hobson safely say, or could she speculate, that every animal that went through that abattoir is under investigation in some way or another?
Dr. Avril Hobson:
We have provided the information to the other member state, and it may come back.
Under the EU, because food fraud is recognised, there are food fraud alerts. We have provided the other member state with a food fraud alert. They can come back. That went last week and it is up to the other member state to come back to look for further information. We have provided them with information.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Regarding the issue of the investigation teams, the Department mentions there are two investigation teams - one from the Garda Síochána and one internal in the unit itself. I am very much aware of how the unit operates. Regarding the governance of the Department and how the Department looked at this, I hope I am not hearing that we are having the Department special unit look at the culture within the Department and how things operated. Have we looked at external investigations of the Department, the protocols and how the management of the Department looked at this unit, or are we expecting the special unit within the Department to investigate itself? What is the third phase of this investigation?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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We have a special unit, which I am aware works within the Department. I know how they operate. They are looking at the abattoir and how it works.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Given the culture within the Department itself and how we ended up in this situation, maybe there are structural changes involved. Maybe changes in legislation are required. Maybe there is the issue of having a database, something similar to what is there on the bovine side that provides traceability all the way through. All those issues need to be on the table at this stage. Those issues were considered during the BSE crisis for the bovine herd and within a matter of months, a scheme was put in place - it ran through Clonakilty at the time - that was effective in providing traceability through the entire bovine herd.
It is beyond belief that we are stuck in a situation where we do not have the same scenario when it comes to the horse industry. Have we learned anything from the 2013 scandal and the processes that happened at that time, in particular, when in came to horse meat getting into the food chain? I am asking what will be the next phase. If it has not learned from 2013 and if it has not taken into consideration what worked in 1996 in the BSE crisis, what will be the long-term focus on how the Department can change its approach?
Which entity will conduct that investigation? It will not be the Garda Síochána and I hope to God it will not be the special investigation unit. There has to be a third phase to this and I have not heard who that is tonight.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I would not say that we did not learn from 2013. We learned a lot from 2013. I mentioned some of the steps that have been taken since then to try to tighten the system up such as the central database, the extra security features on the passports, and the move towards funding of the e-passport system, the 80% grant that we gave, etc. We have done a lot but, unfortunately, as we now know from the programme, criminals are, once again, a step ahead of us. This latest thing that seems to be possible is, as I mentioned, ordering a specific microchip to match a passport, which is something that we had heard rumours about but we had not actually seen. I am not certain that that is the case, but that seems to be the way the evidence is leading us.
As regards follow-up, this is not only an Irish problem. It is an EU problem. Today's meeting, which was prompted partly by ourselves, with the other member states, and involving Europol, is one step in the process. As I say, when the Dutch contacted us two years ago, they led us to believe that the reason some Irish horses were going to Holland and getting into the food chain illegal was they had failed to get into the food chain here. I suppose that give us some reassurance that our own controls were working but, obviously, it was not as simple as that. Other countries that were on the meeting this morning all relayed similar issues. They are all struggling with trying to come up with ways of having a more foolproof horse identification system.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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If we can do it for the bovine industry, which we have done competently, particularly from 1996 onwards, and the amount of work that has been done on traceability all the way through has made sure we are the world leader, I am lost for words to think why we do not have the same scenario. If I, as a farmer myself, had an animal on the farm that was not registered, I would be breaking every law in the land and that animal would not be on that farm if it was over 42 days of age unregistered because the Department would rightly move in. I do not understand why we have not had the same approach when it comes to this industry. For the life of me, I do not understand how we are in this situation, after what we saw in 2013 and after the experience of what happened in BSE in 1996.
The third phase of this investigation is probably the most important phase. My question refers to the lessons within the Department and who is to run that phase. Has the Department come up with a proposal of who will be the person, entity or body that will look at how we need to make sure that this does not happen again? We have, effectively, as a nation, left product get into the food chain that is potentially not suitable for human consumption. That is exceptionally damaging for the State and I fundamentally believe the third phase of the investigation is potentially the most important one.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I cannot say we have a definite proposal to tell the committee about today but, as the Leas-Chathaoirleach can understand, we have been giving a lot of thought to what needs to change and what do we need to do differently. The European angle is one. We are meeting with our Northern Irish counterparts on Monday where we will be discussing some of the cross-Border issues that have cropped up and that are something of a difficulty. Then we intend to sit down and see what else do we need to do.
It is frustrating. I am frustrated when people ask why we do not have as good a system as we do for bovines. It is a good question. It is not an excuse, but there are complications with horses. When we look at why is there an incentive for fraud and criminality when it comes to horses getting into the food chain, the simple reason is that what is different about horses is we have this aspect of horses being marked out of the food chain which we do not have in cattle. A lot of horses, as members will probably be aware, and Senator Paul Daly said he has horses, get marked out of the food chain for various reasons. One of the single biggest issues is that if they are ever administered bute, which is one of the commonly-used anti-inflammatories, they are marked out of the food chain for life. When a horse is marked out of the food chain, its value is significantly less. For criminals, that creates a big incentive to identify some way they can beat the system and get this horse that has been marked out back into the system.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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What I cannot get over here is the traceability element. I am sorry, I will return to Senator Victor Boyhan next.
With bovine operations, there is traceability all the way through so that we know where the animal lives, who owns it, where it is going and how it is run. If that animal is destroyed or died, we know where the knackery is. We know everything about it. Therefore, there is traceability all the way through the system. Even with that issue regarding giving an animal an anti-inflammatory, we will not have a horse that is 200 years old on the system. It does not work like that. This is a wake-up call to make sure that we learn from our lessons. On the lessons that we learned from 2013, I am of the view we have not learned enough and a lot of work needs to be done, in particular, on that issue.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
There is definitely still a lot of work to be done. I could get my colleague, Ms MacAodhain, who is more our expert on the equine ID and traceability, to give the committee a rundown on some of what has been done, in particular, the e-passport system, which is definitely the way forward.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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We might come back to that. I call Senator Victor Boyhan.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I have no more questions to ask the representatives of Horse Sport Ireland or Horse Racing Ireland. It was helpful to have them here. I want to continue to support them in their work. I acknowledge the important work they do.
I am sorry for Mr. Sheahan if the focus is on him but that is his job and responsibility. I have one or two more areas to ask about. Dr. Hobson mentioned another member state. Is she in a position to tell us the member state to which she was referring?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is important. There is clearly a market for horse meat there anyway. We have confirmed that there is an international dimension to this topic because Europol is involved. There is clearly a great deal going on, and there may also be many others involved. I am not comfortable with the idea that there is an internal investigation going on even if it is a unit within the Department. I do not like the sound of that, especially in the context of openness and transparency. There is an element of circling the wagons in any organisation and of protecting the institutions and the ethos that prevails. I call for an independent external investigation into these matters because one is needed. We need to instil confidence in the public at large, who are appalled and horrified by what has gone on. My message is that we should have an independent external review. It is, frankly, not good enough to have an internal review. That would not be tolerated in the Prison Service, the Department of Justice or any other Department. Many people would be bellyaching in the Dáil about internal or external reviews, but I do not hear a call for an external review. I am making a clear call. We need an external and independent review by experts who are competent in this area. I want to carry that forward. I do not know how comfortable the witnesses would be as part of an internal structure. Perhaps it is time the Minister comes back before the committee and we talk to him about the issue. Perhaps the investigation division of the Department needs to come before the committee so we can understand its work better. To what extent is the Food Safety Authority involved in all of this?
Dr. Avril Hobson:
The Food Safety Authority falls under the auspices of the Department of Health, as the Senator probably knows. It is independent of our Department and its role relates to the safety of food. We have liaised quite closely with the authority. It is responsible for issuing the fraud alert so we have met its representatives. They attended the EU-wide meeting today.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Did the Food Safety Authority issue the food alert?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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The Department recommended that a food fraud alert should issue.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That went through channels and the Food Safety Authority has issued the alert on the recommendation of the Department.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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It took until last week to do it. There is a process or a chain involved.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Are they alerts relating to the same plant?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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How many of these food fraud alerts does Dr. Hobson think there are? In what jurisdictions are they?
Dr. Avril Hobson:
Some have issued from the Commission and a couple of member states have been notified. Some fraud alerts are between two member states. All of those have come out since the "RTÉ Investigates" programme. We would not necessarily be privy to all of them. We would not be privy to the details of an alert between two member states but we are aware of a number of other fraud alerts. I completely agree with all the statements that have been made about traceability. It is en EU-wide problem; hence the meeting that was called today.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I am conscious that we are somewhat constrained in what we can say despite the knowledge of other information we have. There is an ongoing investigation. I thank the witnesses for coming. The Department is in a difficult place ,but it is in everyone's interests that we have a fully open, transparent and fair process. It is important that there is a fair process and we do not lose sight of the kernel of the problem rather than focusing on the personalities alleged to be involved. We have to tread carefully. I thank the representatives of the organisations for coming before the committee and giving up their time. They have stewardship responsibilities and governmental responsibilities, which they fulfil well. The only message I want to share is one that Mr. Sheahan might want to discuss with his colleagues. We should have an independent and external review. There is clearly much fact-finding going on in the Department but it cannot be a complete process, and certainly not one that the public will have confidence in if it remains an internal investigation and even if Interpol, the Garda, the Food Safety Authority and other organisations are involved. I thank the witnesses for giving up their time to come before the committee.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I will go back to what I was asking about the information that came to the Department via HRI and what action was taken in response the irregularities. I think our guests said that the issue was highlighted most in the Netherlands. What action, if any, was taken by the Department on the basis on that information?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Would it surprise Mr. Sheahan to hear that a person allegedly provided that information and got no satisfaction? Due to the inaction, that person's next port of call was RTÉ.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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A stitch in time saves nine. This whole fiasco could have been avoided, apparently and allegedly. As I say, we get information and cannot verify the sources at times. However, that is allegedly the case.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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If action had been taken, RTÉ would never have been approached to pursue this investigation. Unfortunately, Mr. Sheahan, that brings me back to the Department's doorstep.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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What plans are there to open an acceptably monitored slaughter plant? One is necessary to ensure that appropriate end-of-life facilities are available. We are going to have another problem. If it is so easy to export horses, there is now a bigger necessity within that circle. How soon can we have an acceptable, well-managed and well-monitored abattoir up and running? It is a necessity for this whole circle to operate.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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For one to be legally operational in the future, I assume it will be put through the wringer by the Department before it gets the green light. How long is that process going to take? With every passing day and week, we are creating problems elsewhere because, as I said, it is a part of the whole cycle and it is a necessity.
I assume that if I wanted to open one in the morning, the Department would put me through the wringer and I would be very disappointed if it did not, based on what has just happened. How long is it going to take until we have somebody who is going to be legally licensed and given the green light to operate?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
As I think I might have mentioned earlier, when I was talking at the Committee of Public Accounts I was somewhat pessimistic that anybody would want to get involved, given the negative publicity and toxicity associated with anything to do with slaughtering horses, but, somewhat to my surprise, we have had a number of inquiries-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, Mr. Sheahan did say that earlier but how long is the process going to take?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I would not want anyone to get the idea that it is just a question of making an inquiry and starting up. People have made inquiries and to be fair to those people, from what I can see, they are all credible people who would be able to do the job properly. However, there is a difference between making an inquiry and actually going ahead. People have made inquiries and have been asking what exactly they would need to do and what is involved. Some of them have slaughter facilities already but some of those may need some modifications to be able to deal with horse carcasses. The height of rails is a particular difficulty when it comes to slaughtering horses.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department see the urgency here? Does it see the need for one?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am not getting the impression of any urgency.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
There will be no lack of urgency on our part if somebody actually comes to us and says they have had a think about it and they want to open a slaughter plant to slaughter horses but we are not at that stage yet. I have had a couple of conversations myself with people who have made inquiries and while I am satisfied with their bona fides and good intent, they are not committing at this stage. They are still thinking about it. Certainly, if somebody does come forward, they will be treated with urgency but it may be the case that even for people with genuinely good intentions, modifications might be needed to their existing lines and so on, so I cannot predict how long it is going to take. There will not be a lack of urgency on our part but-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Where I am coming from, and what I am trying to get at, is that three or four weeks ago, before the Department got the tip-off from RTÉ and the programme was broadcast, it was quite happy that there were approximately 65 horses per week being killed in this particular abattoir and that was the number of horses that needed to be killed in that abattoir every week for the natural cycle to continue. Now, unfortunately, we have found out that there was a lot of skullduggery going on in that process but there was still the need for 65 horses per week to be humanely, properly and appropriately euthanised in that abattoir. Two weeks have now passed, which equates to 130 horses. The figure will be 195 next week, 260 the following week and so on. If we are back in here again, the buck is going to stop with Mr. Sheahan. There is an urgency.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Where does Mr. Sheahan think those horses are going now?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I am not sure they have gone anywhere in the short term. There is a problem building up and there is no question about that but there is only a certain amount the Department can do. We cannot force somebody to open up a slaughter plant for horses. We can let people know that we are open to the possibility and if they come forward, we will do everything we can to streamline the process and so forth. It is going to be up to those-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Sheahan said the Department had four inquiries. Is it pursuing them?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Department actively pursuing them? This is serious. There is another scandal waiting to happen and we are going to cause it if we do not have something in place sooner rather than later.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
Regarding the two inquiries that I have had, I rang the people back straight away and we had a discussion. In one case, when I got back to them a second time, they had cooled in their interest but the second one is still actively being pursued. I do not want to give false hope that there is going to be an abattoir open tomorrow morning.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking for that but I am asking that it be treated with a bit of urgency.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
There is no lack of urgency. I can assure the Senator of that. We are very conscious of what happened in the United States when slaughter plants were shut down by people who thought they were doing the right thing for animal welfare but the unintended consequences were a lot worse, from a welfare point of view. I would agree that it would be preferable to deal with this issue on the island of Ireland but there is no guarantee, when push comes to shove, that somebody is actually going to step forward.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I want to go back now to both HRI and Horse Sport Ireland. I know the HRI well and that is the area in which I would have been involved. It has, quite rightly, highlighted the fact that it is responsible for the welfare of the horse during its performance time or its career. Once the horse receives its last entry or runs its last race, it is gone out of HRI's remit. I presume it is something similar in Horse Sport Ireland. If a horse is retired, it has no way of knowing whether it died, was killed or is out in a field enjoying a happy retirement. Considering everything that has happened, how would HRI and HSI like to see this dealt with? Could they see a system where there would be some traceability? Is there any role they could play in devising a system of post-career traceability? I know of instances where horses have broken down and been euthanised very professionally or have gone to kennels. They just disappeared off the racing scene. They never received another entry but nobody ever came knocking to ask where horse X went because he was running three weeks ago but now he is gone off the radar. Would HRI and HSI envisage some system in which they, along with the Department, could get involved? It is a little bit of a cliff edge that once a horse receives its last entry or retires, it is gone off their radar.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Just following on from the Senator's point, that is the issue. That cannot be done in the bovine herd. A calf cannot fall off the radar-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is a fantastic system. If I have a horse in training at the moment, my trainer's yard is inspected by the IHRB to ensure the facilities are top-class. When the horse goes to the track, they use CCTV and the facilities at the tracks have been improving on an ongoing basis, funded and grant aided by the Department. That horse is wrapped up in cotton wool until the day it figuratively goes over the edge of the cliff, for whatever reason. It could be at home in my back yard getting fed carrots three times a day, rugged, washed and so on but the HRI and HSI do not know where he has gone once he receives his last entry. Are they happy with that and, if not, how do they think they could change it?
Mr. John Osborne:
The Treo Eile model is for connecting horses with opportunities and the opportunities are through a registration process. That is a step in direction of knowing who is taking custody of the animal in its second career. That is falling short of being forever because if there is not onward movement, we could depend upon that. The French system has relied on a similar network being created but the horses that go to so-called next homes have to revert to the central organiser before they can be reallocated to another career if it does not work out in the first port of call. That is one approach that fixes that problem. It is hard to find a system that is viable and robust enough to do what the Senator is asking for, which is that there is full visibility forever. We have looked at lots of international systems and while there is no one model that has absolutely cracked it in any country, we are open to suggestions. We are working with people who are keen to develop this as a career path for people in the retraining business, for example. There are agencies that are specifically targeting horses of a particular type for riders of a specific ability. The danger there was highlighted in the documentary, as the Senator mentioned. Misapplying a horse to an inappropriate position is a disaster for both the rider and, potentially, the horse.
There is no simple solution, but we are looking at lots of different ways. We will crack it bit by bit. It will not be one simple solution, but a lot of little things and a lot of alternative outlets where horses are developed.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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With the deepest of respect, a system has been in place for the bovine herd since 1996 that shows end of life. End of life is the most important part of any system. We need a system that traces the horse all the way through to end of life. If we do not have an end-of-life element to it, we will have, as Mr. Sheahan said, unfortunate activity that tries to make money off the back of horses that are not suitable for the food chain. The end-of-life element is the ultimate issue. A system needs to be put in place that marks an animal as dead. In many ways, it is a secondary issue where that animal is. Until the animal is marked as dead on the system, the potential for the fraud we are talking about will always be there because we do not know where that animal is at the end of its life. I respectfully suggest that the witnesses look at what happened with the bovine herd in Ireland, that they do not go international, but national. We have the best traceable system in Ireland for the bovine herd. We set it up in 1996 in a matter of weeks. It works. It is a system under which millions of animals are registered on a weekly basis in Clonakilty. That is what is required in this industry.
I agree it is not fully the witnesses' remit. I would argue that it is the remit of the Minister and the Secretary General of the Department. When the Secretary General of the Department of agriculture comes before the committee next week, we will ask him for his vision of this issue because there has to be accountability. I fully disagree with the statement that we learned from 2013. We did not. We are back here again because we did not put a system in place. The system failed us again. Unless we get that change, we will be back here again in five years' time when potentially they have found another way of getting around the system and I cannot describe the damage that will be done to Horse Racing Ireland, Horse Sport Ireland and Ireland Inc.
I am really concerned about the potential for the food chain to be contaminated at a European level, about how many animals could be involved and about where this issue could end up. We need to change our approach. The Secretary General of the Department and the Minister need to take a leading role in that fundamental change of approach.
Mr. Sheahan mentioned in his opening statement that in 2014 a registration of all premises keeping animals was required. Was the premises we are talking about registered with the Department?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Then it falls under the Department to make sure it is appropriately run.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am looking for solutions. We are where we are and I am always a believer, irrespective of what happens and whether punishment is required, that we need to get the next step right. If we do not we will end up back here again. As the Chair and everyone said, we need traceability from birth to death. I appreciate there are rogues in every industry and it was rogues that were on the programme. It is not as easy to do it with horses as with other animals. People do not have cattle without a herd number. For example, they might have a pony in the back garden but they will not have a Friesian cow. Everyone who has cattle has a herd number and that system works. It is not as easy as it is for cattle, but I want to see efforts being made to come up with a solution to the problem. At the end of the day, 99.9 % of genuine horse owners have their horses microchipped and the horses have a good life. It is the other 0.1 % that is not chipped that is leaving the whole system open to abuse and unfortunately everyone else suffers.
I will return to the difference between an identity document and a passport. Will Mr. Duggan or Dr. Egan explain the following? HRI is an all-island entity and I thought Horse Sport Ireland was as well with one stud book and so forth. However, the programme stated that a Northern Ireland passport was coming and was beginning to cause problems. From my understanding of the programme, a horse that was registered down here was apparently easily able to get a Northern Ireland passport. I did not know there was such a thing because I thought we were one island for equine purposes.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
On the thoroughbred side, the Senator is correct that there is one passport authority for both the UK and Ireland, Weatherbys. It is different in the sport horse sector. We are one of seven, or excluding Weatherbys we are one of six, on the sport horse side. If you have friends or neighbours who breed a Connemara pony which is purebred it will be registered with the Connemara Pony Breeders' Society, for example, which is an entirely separate passport organisation. A number of others also operate.
In Northern Ireland, three authorities are licensed to issue passports by the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, one of which, Breeders Elite, is a breeders society. It is the only effective studbook, but the others issue what we refer to in our organisation as a "white book", which is the identity document issued by the Northern Ireland Horse Board, which is the one that featured in the documentary. Showjumping Ireland's Ulster region also issues an identity document. Dr. Egan brought two of them with her. The primary difference is that a studbook passport is a more valuable passport as it means the breeding is recorded. DNA testing is done, the breeding, pedigree and history-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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To go back to the question - I know the Chair has to suspend the meeting, but if I can just finish this I will be finished - how was it, as it came across in the programme, that it was so easy for the owner of a horse that had a passport here to almost bin it and get that book in the North and for the horse to travel again with an almost new identity or new lease of life?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Again we do not know the specifics of the individual case. All we know is what was shown by RTÉ. Dr. Egan touched on this earlier in answering another question. A marking chart is required, whether it is for an identity document or studbook passport. It is completed by the vet. Weatherbys will have one for a thoroughbred as well. It records any of the marks on the horse's coat.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
That is correct. We saw the spray painting of the horse's feet with white socks. The vet signs the marking chart and, if it is for a studbook passport, takes a hair sample for a DNA test to be done. If it is for a white book or other identity document, the vet still completes a marking chart and has to sign it but it is possible that no DNA test is done. I can only think of three scenarios where the scenario we saw on the documentary can arise: the vet has been provided with false information and completes and signs the marking chart in good faith and the application is then submitted by the individual to the passport authority, in this case the Northern Ireland Horse Board, which completes it in good faith. The other scenarios are that the vet's signature or stamp is forged or there is a rogue vet. We are dealing with human behaviour.
They are the three scenarios where the marking charge could effectively be tampered with, which would facilitate the identity document being issued. The two biggest-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I get all that. You have the passport, the microchip, the marking for the horses, the passport and all that, but how can I get another identity document for that same horse in the North at three, four, five, six, seven or 22 years of age?
Dr. Sonja Egan:
In the circumstance, I would speculate that what has occurred is that a second microchip has been inserted. The passport-issuing authority will have received the application with the marking chart with the new microchip. The entity will have checked the microchip. It is something we do ourselves. We check the microchip with the Department and we check our own database. This would have been a new microchip. It would not have been the microchip that existed on the legally-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Would it not be unusual to be registering a horse with a new microchip or no microchip? If we give the benefit of the doubt and allow for delays of up to two years, going beyond a year is kind of late to be registering a horse.
Dr. Sonja Egan:
It absolutely is but, ultimately, it is the legal obligation of the passport-issuing authority to register the animals if they receive an application. Ultimately, if the passport-issuing authority receives an application with a new microchip for an adult, it will process that application. It is up to the breeder to decide whether it wants to enter the animal on an identity document passport. If the animal in question had a new microchip inserted and a new set of markings done by the vet, and the vet signed off on this and sent it to the passport-issuing authority in the North, it goes off that application in good faith because it was signed off by a vet.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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On the back of that, have any steps been taken to try to close all these loopholes? There seem to be loads of loopholes and they seem to be easy enough to jump through.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Last year, we varied the price and used it as a differentiator. Historically, we would see a number of applications for adults every year, as we refer to them, whether yearlings, two-year-olds or three-year-olds. Up until the end of 2022, in our organisation, it was the exact same price whether you registered a new foal born today or in five years, unlike in the thoroughbred world, where price was used to incentivise people to register a foal in the year it was born. We have changed that for that exact reason. We use price to change behaviour.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I know the Chair is conscious to take a sos and I am conscious that Deputy Flaherty was pursuing that line of questioning. He was called out to vote, so I do not want to go down that line. He will resume on the passporting issue when he comes back.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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We will make sure the witnesses get appropriate time.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I apologise to witnesses for the delay. It was unfortunate. Proceedings in the Dáil have had an impact on our proceedings.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Our apologies again for the delay. We can blame democracy.
I will come back to the thorny issue of passports. We are told that anything up to three and four foals were sold last year without a passport. Obviously, this raises questions about equine traceability. A question was put to Mr. Sheahan earlier in relation to the number of horses in Ireland that do not have passports. Can he indicate whether all breeders from 2023 who paid for a service or a passport have received the relevant documentation?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
In the context of the 2023 passports issued, we are dealing with approximately 200 applications in respect of which we are awaiting information from breeders. They are the last of the 2023 applicants who will be receiving passports. In all of those cases, we are either waiting for a DNA result to come back or for information from the breeder. Every breeder is aware of that.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Hypothetically, these are 200 animals that be gone into the ether.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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They could be gone into the ether where, for example, a farmer is destitute and has a foal that has no passport and that he is then just going to get rid of. Hypothetically, that animal is going to go unchecked somewhere.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Have all the breeders received their foal kits for this year?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
No. Earlier, I mentioned that we will be launching our e-passport system in the coming weeks. Some 2,000 foal kits have been issued. Under the new system, breeders will be applying for their foal kits when the new system goes live.
I will go back to the statistic quoted by the Deputy of three in every four foals being sold without passports. I could not stand over that. I am not familiar with the statistic, but I will be very clear that I would not like it to emanate from these proceedings that this is the case.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That is my information from breeders. I will send Mr. Duggan an email with details for that large number tomorrow.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It can technically be sold but it will not change hands. It can be sold pending the passport but probably will not change hands or the breeder will not get his or her money.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, the Department has heard about the issues with passports. I have raised it previously. As the Department's legal official here, is Mr. Sheahan satisfied with the stud book breeding contract that was renewed for a second year, given that we still have certain inadequacies in relation to the management of the stud book?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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This is slightly outside the remit here.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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In relation to the investigation the Department has begun regarding the breakdown of thoroughbred and sport horse stock, can it provide a breakdown on the passports that were discovered in that plant? Are we looking at 50% or-----
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. AT the Shannonside Foods plant.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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In the limited time remaining, I have two questions for Mr. Sheahan. When does he believe there will be an appropriate and approved Department equine slaughter facility available in Ireland? In the absence of such a facility, what additional safeguards, if any, have been put in place regarding equine transportation for slaughter?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I will answer the second question first. Extra safeguards have been put in place for equine transport . We have asked our colleagues in Rosslare Europort and Dublin Port and in the North to put in place extra welfare checks on horses leaving the country from now on. Those measures are now in place. As I mentioned earlier, we are having a meeting with our northern colleagues on Monday to discuss further measures that might need to be taken in relation to the whole issue.
On the first question about when there might there be a slaughter plant, I may have covered this earlier but I reiterate that we have had a number of inquiries from people about the possibility-----
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I know there have been four, but it is obviously critical for the sector that we have a slaughter facility. It is critical for animal welfare.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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When are we going to have that?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I do not know. All I can say is that from our point of view we will do everything we can to facilitate the process. It will require somebody. It is one thing making an inquiry but it is another to go ahead with it. The processing of horses is not as simple as the processing of cattle. There are some complications but nothing that cannot be overcome.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Clearly, it is not as regulated as slaughtering cattle.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I cannot believe this could happen in Ireland in 2024. I just cannot believe it. I take this opportunity to compliment the three women who brought this matter forward, and also RTÉ, of which we can be very critical but which we have to compliment on this occasion regarding the job they did that the Department failed to do. What was going on is scandalous. I had to stop watching the programme. I just could not believe that we could see such cruelty to animals in this country in 2024. If there is one thing Irish people love, it is their animals. They love their dogs and their horses. They just love their animals.
I have a number of questions. The programme showed three sheds. One was where the officials from the Department could go on a regular basis to examine what was going on there. Why could the Department inspectors not go into the other two sheds? Could somebody not see that something was going on? Surely to God at some stage they heard animals in there? Why was something not done about that? Why was this not done by the inspectors, even if they needed a court order to go in and do what needed to be done?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I agree with the Deputy. I could not believe what I was seeing either. I have never seen anything like that in my life, and I have not met anyone since who has ever seen anything like it.
Like the Deputy, I could not believe in 2024, or never mind in 2024, I could not believe at any time that somebody would do that. The crux of his question is how was this happening in the shed next door and how did we not know about it. The reality is we did not know about it, unfortunately. Within the slaughter plant, the horses come in during the morning. The horses that they send to the slaughter plant tend to be in good condition. They do not send dying, starving, lame horses to the slaughter plant. Whatever is happening next door, the standard of horse that arrives on the Wednesday morning and later in the day into the lairage that is under our control is good and they are in good condition. In normal circumstances with cattle or sheep, we never go and look at where the animal originated from. We do not go to the feed lot that the cattle come from. We work on the basis that if there are problems, they will show up in the slaughter plant.
Sometimes, we get a load of pigs in to a plant and their condition is not as good as it should be and it will sometimes ring an alarm bell and we will contact our office in that area and suggest staff go and have a look. Nothing like that was happening in this case because the horses coming into the plant, despite the horrors that were happening in the shed next door, were generally in good condition. That was not ringing an alarm bell. If another slaughter plant was to open up, it goes without saying given that we now know it is potentially a risk when horses are being assembled for slaughter, we would make a point of having some inspection regime for the places that the horses are before they come to the slaughter plant, whether that is next door or 50 miles away. The view expressed by committee members is that would be desirable if it could be done. As I said earlier, I simply would not have believed what was happening if it had not been for the cameras. I simply would not believe that anybody would do that. There was no reason for it.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many complaints did the Department actually get from those ladies or from anybody else? I am sure Mr Sheahan knows that answer. How many complaints were received about that particular slaughtering plant and the difficulties that were happening? If these ladies knew there was something happening, surely when the Department vets who were actually there were told something was happening, surely to God they started looking around to see if there was something in those complaints. If RTÉ could do what they did, why could the Department not have investigated more thoroughly?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I do not know anything about the three ladies the Deputy is talking about so I am at a loss but I can answer the question about the number of complaints and I think I answered it earlier. Since 2018, we had five complaints about the farm next door to the slaughter plant. We had no complaints about the shed where the horror story was happening but we had five complaints about horses in a field on the farm beside the slaughter plant. We did the same with those five complaints as we do with any complaint that comes in to our animal welfare helpline or through email. We sent a veterinary inspector out from the office, which was the Naas office in this case, and in each case they went out and looked at the situation and they did not find something that merited either the serving of a notice or prosecution.
We get a thousand and something complaints and we investigate every single one. The vast majority of the complaints we get are not such that they merit prosecution or follow-up. It can be a lame sheep in a field or cattle on a bare paddock around a circular feeder. It could be something that might cause a member of the public concern but it would not actually reach the bar for constituting a breach of animal welfare legislation. It is not that is not taken seriously but it is only in a small number of cases where we find something when we go out that is actually a significant welfare problem that needs action, prosecution or serving a notice. The animal welfare helpline, which has been in place for about five years, is a fantastic system and we encourage people to use it. It does alert us to problems and without it there would be a certain number of things that we would not have known about over the years. For better or for worse, we did not have any alert that alerted us what was going on in this horror situation beside the plant.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On an annual basis, how many horses are slaughtered in the country? How many abattoirs have we now and how many had we in the past five years?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
Last year, there were just under 2,000 horses slaughtered. We only have one slaughter plant since around 2016 and it has been killing about 2,000 horses a year or a bit less than that. In the past, we have had as many as four horse slaughter plants, even in my time over the past ten to 15 years. At its peak when the number of horses in the country was far bigger, we slaughtered as many as 24,000 horses a year. Because there are generally far fewer horses in the country now than there were ten to 15 years ago, the number of horses being slaughtered is significantly less than what it was.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If a family had a horse that was a pet to the family, in the past they would bring out the local vet and he would put it down in a humane way. That is not allowed now. They would have buried that horse and treated it as if it was a human. That is the way they felt about the animal. The Department's policy, and in particular Mr. Sheahan's section, over the past number of years has been to close down cattle slaughterhouses and abattoirs all over the country. What happened is, and I saw it in my own county, a number of abattoirs were working very well, were well run and well inspected but inspector after inspector came in time after time and all they wanted was to get them out of there and get the big guys operating. We have the big guys operating now and by God, they are not doing too well.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
On the first bit of the question, it is still very much an option for people to get their vet out and get the horse put down. They are not supposed to bury the carcass obviously; it has to go to a knackery. Lots of people get the vet out to euthanise the horse so that is still very much an option.
On the second question about the closing down of small abattoirs, the local authority veterinary service looks after the smaller abattoirs if they are killing less-----
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Paid for by the Department of agriculture and controlled by the Department.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It might have been the Food Safety Authority of Ireland that I was talking about.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Paid for by the Department and controlled by the Department. Even though they might be under the local authorities, it is Mr. Sheahan's Department that actually pays for them.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
It is actually the Department of Health that pays for the local authority veterinary service, but that is only a minor point. We have no control as things stand over the local authority veterinary service. On the general point about small abattoirs closing down, and we met the craft butchers recently with Deputy Fitzmaurice as it happens, there is a possibility later this year that the Department of agriculture will take over the local authority veterinary service and deal with the small abattoirs. I reiterate that we have no agenda to close down small businesses. In fact, it is the opposite and we try to encourage those local enterprises.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have one final question and it is a simple question to the rest of the panel. They talk about animal welfare but they are all a disgrace because none of them make any contributions. The Department give a bit of money at Christmas to a charitable organisation that looks after animal welfare in this country and I think that particularly Horse Racing Ireland but the whole lot of them should be making contributions. They are all making money out of animals but none of them are prepared to put money in except the Department. They give a bit of money to the small people that run charitable organisations to look after animals in this country and putting a bit of funding into the welfare of animals is something that should be looked at, particularly the voluntary groups that are running these organisations. It is something they should look at since there is big money in this business and the least they could do is put a bit of money into animal welfare.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses.
Does Horse Sport Ireland issue books?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Why is there such chaos within Horse Sport Ireland at the moment? We are getting people ringing us up on a continual basis telling us that it is losing DNA samples and not issuing passports. A number of passports have yet to be issued for 2023. Something has gone very wrong within the organisation. What has gone wrong?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Hold on. When the witnesses were here before they were in the middle of changing over. That was a while ago. I am sick of listening to talk about changing over.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Can I come in on something there? I have heard from breeders that Horse Sport Ireland is not issuing out books at the moment. One cannot get a passport at the minute or even on update of ownership. However, if one pays the €150 extra - it is like getting the quick passport a person can get if they are flying out of the country - one can get it then. However, if one goes the ordinary way, it is being held up. We are hearing from breeders all over the country that the organisation is in disarray.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The organisation stopped.
Mr. Denis Duggan:
Hear me out for a second. We have had to stop processing anything other than urgent applications so that we could migrate the data from one old system that we are retiring to our new e-passport system. We have had to stop in order to allow that change over to take place but at the same time, we are conscious that breeders will need to do things in an urgent fashion like a change of ownership, so we have kept that facility in place for them.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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This is all going back to the problem we saw of no accountability anywhere. This is the problem. Would the witnesses admit that the organisation is not functioning as it should be in an effective way?
Mr. Denis Duggan:
We are in the middle of changing over IT systems and we are expecting to have that system up and running within the week to two weeks and that will mean breeders will be able to apply for their passports. Prior to initiating the change over in the last three to four weeks, we issued passports-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am explaining why we might have no passports for things. The other questions have been asked.
I am moving on to the Department. In 2016, SI 201 of 2016 was changed and the signature of seller is not now required for the transfer of ownership of an equine. Why is that?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I am not sure exactly what the details were at the time but I know it was changed. My understanding is that it was changed because people in the industry said the current system was not working. We changed based on the best advice at the time that the new system would work better but in hindsight it is not working very well. We have a list of about ten things that we have already decided we need to look at pretty quickly and that is certainly one of them.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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With cattle, the AIM system means that the Department knows where everyone’s animals are at this minute. What is the push back that is coming? Is it from the thoroughbred or the horse sport side? We are hearing there is push back against the Department having an AIM system. Some 2.5 million calves are born every year. Within one week, we are able to have a card for them. There is a book. We know the sire and the dam and whether they are purebreds or commercial. Even though we heard a few years ago that this was happening, we has it still not happened? Why is there not DNA sampling? It is an embarrassment for Ireland to see that the EU is dealing with this. It is an embarrassment for our country because we always took pride in our horses. We are now the focus of the rest of Europe. For the good people who are involved, it is an embarrassment for them as well. Why have we not resolved those issues ahead of everything?
I heard Mr. Sheahan say earlier that they did not get the footage. The Department has a special investigation unit. Is that correct? They have Garda powers. They can go into RTÉ or anywhere they want with a warrant from a judge and get whatever is required or whatever they want, and not two weeks' later but the next day.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
To be clear, it is not a question of there being any difficulty on RTÉ’s part in respect of handing over the footage. The same as with the marts issue last year or whenever it was, there is no difficulty. There are a few legal issues that they are working through about chain of custody of the footage. That is the only thing that is delayed and it is not because of any obstruction on RTÉ’s part - far from it. When it comes to bringing prosecutions, which is obviously the ultimate aim, they, along with the gardaí in particular, want to ensure there is a chain of custody when it comes to the footage. That is all it is.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Can I ask Mr. Sheahan a question? Next week if any of us go to the mart and there are horses for sale, we can buy a horse. It is up to us when we change the ownership. If any one of us goes to a mart and buys an animal, it goes into our herd that night - the minute we buy it. Why can I decide that I can do it in three months, four months or six months? Somebody got a phone call about a horse in training saying it had died but that horse showed up two years later. They contacted the Department, the Horse Sport Ireland or the breeder but nobody ever called out or investigates it. The gardaí did not investigate it either. If cattle were missing, the Department would have the gardaí on it, and rightly so. It would have everyone on it. What is the reason there is such leniency with the horse sector?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I do not know whether it is a question of leniency, but it is more complicated with horses, whether we like it or not, than it is with cattle. That is not an excuse. We have been trying since 2013 to tighten the screws in relation to horse traceability and, to be fair, we have made a good bit of progress. There is obviously still a long way to go. The big thing that has been put forward, as the thing that will really change the game, is the e-passport system. This is the thing everyone has been calling for - this electronic system. That is in place on the thoroughbred side since 2021 and we offered an 80% grant to encourage others-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How many organisations are giving out these passports?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How many are giving them out for cattle?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How efficient are they?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes. Why are we dabbling with seven different organisations that are getting money but none of which is able to function to the standard that is required to make sure there is a passport straightaway? I remember it being agreed at this committee that the AIM system would be brought in and a person would have the passport for their horse immediately. That was a long time ago and it is still not there and we have this embarrassment now. A lot of money goes into the horse sector every year, voted on by everyone of us here. We will be thinking twice about voting for it after what we saw the other night. The sad part of it is that it is taxpayers' money going in and it was an embarrassment to see on television what went on, as was rightly pointed out.
If we look at the cattle system, it is the best in the world. We could not commend the Department more. Is there not a lot of money going to voluntary groups or NGOs dealing with welfare? Where is that going? How accountable is that? Is the council veterinarian not supposed to look at welfare? Is there a heap of money going out with no accountability for it and no results given what was on that television programme the other night.
On top of that, when a farmer puts in their single farm payment application, the maps they put in must include all of their farm. If there is a bit of bad ground, a yard, etc., they have to be included, although it is excluded from the payment. When an abattoir is looking for an application, is the whole lot not put on the map but with that piece excluded or whatever?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
On what the Deputy said about the welfare grants going to the NGOs, etc., we gave out something like €6 million last year.
Approximately half of that went to groups that deal with horses or donkeys, mostly horses in this case. In my experience, they do a fantastic job. I would not have any qualms about saying that. I commend, in particular, a group called Hungry Horse Outside, over in Longford. It was the first group that came to us ten or 12-years ago to say there was a huge problem with unwanted horses in the country. They said the main reason there are so many is because of indiscriminate breeding, and that we needed to do something about that. I asked what it proposed, and that was having free castration clinics where owners of horses could bring their horses. What was happening before that, was stallions were being left to run with mares and the following year, there would be ten or 20 extra foals and it went on and on.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will say one thing to Mr. Sheahan. I cannot have cattle or sheep without a flock number for sheep or a herd number for cattle.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How can I have a horse, or ten of them, and not need to have anything?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What is happening in reality?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
In 2016, it was brought in that horse owners had to have the equivalent of a herd number, a premises registration number, and 29,000 people now have that. A passport cannot be obtained unless the individual has a proper premises registration number. This was another tightening of the screw. Despite all these efforts, people are still finding ways of beating the system. As I mentioned earlier on, the reason that there is an incentive to beat the system with horses is because of this thing of horses being marked out of the food chain. We do not have that in cattle, but it is there in horses. This creates an incentive for a criminal to try to find ways to beat the system and get that horse back into the food chain and increase its value.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Many questions have been asked, but I am a little confused and I want to return to the so-called "shed". It was said that the majority of recording footage took place in the building adjacent. How close is it to the slaughterhouse?
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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It is a couple hundred yards. That is fine.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Would people be passing it by and looking in, or is it visible when walking in?
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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And no one noticed anything?
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Was the shed registered, and who was it registered to?
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I assume the registration would have had to be approved.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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The Department would have to approve the registration.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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The Department would have known about the registration. The Department would have known about that premises, but no one suggested going to have a look at it.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the issue. The issue is it is a hundred or 200 yards away.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I accept that. We do not normally inspect feed lots or wherever they are sending cattle for slaughter. They are only examined when they come into the lairage of the slaughter plant, which is what happened here. If there is one thing we have learned from the programme, and so on, it is that if a horse slaughter plant was to get up and running again in this country, we would definitely be focusing on where the horses are assembled before they go to the slaughter plant.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department held a senior staff members meeting on this?
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department done an internal review on it?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
We have reviewed many things and we have many actions that we want to look at. I cannot say we have a formal plan of action yet, but there are several things we have done already. We had a meeting of the EU this morning, which I mentioned earlier, and we prompted the European Commission to-----
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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What has the Department done? Has it had an internal meeting to discuss all of this?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
We have. Many things have happened. As the committee knows, the investigation division has led the way in the investigation in conjunction with the gardaí, and the plant has been closed. The investigation has broadened now beyond Shannonside Foods, to other issues that came to light in the programme. We have alerted our staff in Dublin and Rosslare ports. We have also alerted our colleagues in Northern Ireland. We have asked them to do extra welfare checks on the basis that it may be the case that more horses may be exported due to the fact that there is no longer a slaughter plant in the country, and so on. We have taken many actions already, and there are many issues that we have been discussing as regards next steps.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department aware of any convictions of vets falsifying passports?
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Sheahan referred to a documentary where an individual purchased non-studbook passports from Northern Ireland. Was there any investigation into that? It would have to be signed off by somebody.
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
That was mentioned by my colleagues earlier. I might pass this to Horse Sport Ireland. We are having an in-person meeting on Monday with our colleagues from Northern Ireland to discuss all aspects of this and most other issues We will be discussing it on Monday, but my colleagues from Horse Sport Ireland had something to say on that earlier on and I might pass that to them to answer.
Dr. Sonja Egan:
I cannot speak to any specific conviction, I am not aware of it. Identity documents issued by the Northern Ireland Horse Board would have been working off the basis that it received a valid application that was signed off by a vet. That is, the board received a marking chart that was signed and stamped by a vet with a microchip on it that was not existing on the system, or I would speculate was not on existing on the system. It would be hard for the board as a passport issuing organisation, PIO, therefore, to identify that this animal was not previously on the animal identification and movement system, AIMS. For argument's sake, Horse Sport Ireland have a public-facing database that anyone can log onto at this time and look at animal details. The Department also launched a microchip checker, which will be available to them on the basis that these were new passport documents. It would have been notified by the Central Equine Database in the UK, so it is not within the AIMS database here.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Could the witnesses give a quick synopsis on the meeting in Europe and what happened today?
Ms Avril Hobson:
The meeting was held by the EU Agri-Food Fraud Network. It was attended by a number of member states and Europol. There was a general discussion about increasing collaboration and co-operation between member states, looking at all regulations and aspects relating to equine identification and traceability. There was a discussion on the common issues that all member states are experiencing, that was raised in the "RTÉ Investigates" programme. There will be further meetings regarding this.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I commend RTÉ on exposing what can only be termed as malicious cruelty to animals.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I have one quick question, and Dr. Egan might be able to answer it for me. When we take the DNA of each animal or horse that was born, and we get our book for them, it is through a hair that we can always trace and identify that same animal, is it not?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If a horse is registered under the AIMS, the owner has the DNA and a registered passport, having a hair sample also is bulletproof for a factory to then trace the animal in question. Would that be fair to say?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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How bulletproof?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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He or she would be in a spot of bother straight away then if it worked out differently.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Shannonside Foods in Straffan is in my constituency of North Kildare. I have tabled a lot of parliamentary questions to the Minister about animal welfare and cruelty. The replies I have received from the Department are within the letter of the answer rather than the spirit of the question. I noticed that the Department moved at lightning speed away from animal cruelty and towards traceability as a food safety matter. The plant was closed down on traceability matters. Sticking to the animal cruelty aspect - because I do think there is something disturbing about somebody who could inflict that kind of violence on animals, not least in this case, animals licensed by the Department into a private company's care -I attended the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts last Friday and was disturbed to see Mr. Sheahan suggest that people were jumping on the bandwagon. I know Mr. Sheahan withdrew that charge but the fact that the Department has that kind of attitude towards animal welfare and cruelty - that it felt that people asking questions about this issue were jumping on the bandwagon - does raise serious questions around the culture of the Department.
Given the savagery towards the horses we saw on the "RTÉ Investigates" programme right up to the pitchfork moments, why did the Department not shut the plant down or revoke the licence on welfare grounds? Why did it choose to do it on traceability grounds? What extra cruelty might the Department have needed to have seen to close the plant on animal welfare grounds instead of traceability grounds?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
I am at fault for that misunderstanding about the legal basis for closing the plant. When I was before the Committee of Public Accounts, I was obviously warned by my legal colleagues not to go into the legal basis as to why the plant was closed down. When I was being questioned, I made the point that it had not been closed because of welfare issues within the plant, which is the case. At the time, the legal notice was still within the 14-day period during which it could be appealed so that is why I was warned not to get into that. I can confirm that the legal basis on which the plant was closed related to welfare and traceability issues that were highlighted in the programme. I wrote to the Committee of Public Accounts to clarify that point because I could see from reading the transcript, I could see that it was not clear. I was being hesitant in answering the question but in my hesitation, I did not explain the thing very clearly. It was very definitely to do with welfare and traceability. For the avoidance of doubt, as I mentioned earlier, I have never seen anything like the sickening welfare stuff we saw on the programme and I have seen a lot of bad things. I have not met anybody since who has seen anything as bad as that. It was unbelievable.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Sheahan does know that as a Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine vet, he does not need a court order to check any of the other buildings such as the shed and the pre-slaughter house. He is aware of that.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding licensing, in response to some of my parliamentary questions, the Minister outlined that to have a licence, an applicant must sign a declaration saying that he or she did not have an animal cruelty conviction for at least three years. I raised this as a Topical Issue last Thursday and asked the Department to provide me with the date of the licence because Mr. J. J. Fitzpatrick had a conviction - a serious infringement - on 13 September 2012.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Could the Deputy refrain from mentioning names?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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The owner of the establishment had a conviction on 13 September 2012. It was not just an ordinary conviction for animal cruelty. He had not been kicking a dog. It was a conviction for cruelty to horses. In a separate response, the Minister told me last night that Shannonside Foods was given a conditional certificate to slaughter in July 2015, which is within the three-year period. The application was clearly made even earlier. A full licence was granted in February 2016. How did that happen? Where was the Department's due diligence in examining the application? Mr. Sheahan referred to credible people when talking about opening up another horse abattoir. Does he think that credible people would have a conviction for animal cruelty?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Does he think that is a credible person?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I have a good few questions so could Mr. Sheahan could explain it as quickly as possible?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
The EU takes a very good approach to the issue of animal welfare and slaughter plants. It insists that everybody in a slaughter plant who deals with live animals has to have done a training course, passed an examination and have a certificate of competence. Everybody in the horse slaughter plant who dealt with the live animal had to have that. The same applies to every kind of slaughter plant. This is a good and sensible law. It does not happen too often that a new slaughter plant opens but when it does, the secretary of the company, the director or the accountant can make the application and, for better or for worse, there is no requirement for him or her to have done an animal welfare training course. The legislation simply says he or she has to be a fit and proper person. I asked our legal people today what that means and it made the point that it is a term that is used in legislation but is a very hard one to define. Let us say I was the accountant of a company with a conviction for cruelty. There is nothing to stop me from making an application to set up a slaughter plant. There is no requirement regarding the person signing the application form. Once I am registered with the Companies Office-----
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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-----for the licence.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Could the Department publish its account as to how that licence was granted within the three-year period? I asked the Minister whether there was a register of animal abusers so that people who did have convictions would never be licensed to handle animals again, particularly in a slaughterhouse, and I got a straight "No". I disagree with him. He said that the media reported on animal cruelty cases and he did not think it was necessary. However, the media did report on the owner of this establishment. There is a cultural concern there in the Department around animal welfare concerning such a register of animal abusers and them being prevented from being licensed to have a slaughterhouse or working with animals. We cannot have people who have been convicted of animal cruelty being licensed by the State to handle animals in a vulnerable state where they are going to be slaughtered. In a reply, the Minister said the fact that cruelty cases are reported by the media would negate the need for a register. Would Mr. Sheahan agree with that?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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That is a political issue regarding-----
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Sheahan believe it is something the Department should examine?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Is it something that Mr. Sheahan might discuss examining with the Minister?
Mr. Michael Sheahan:
As far as I am aware, before the new animal health and welfare legislation in 2014, cruelty prosecutions were only brought by the Garda. For example, the case we are discussing involving the gentleman was brought by the Garda. The Department had no involvement whatsoever. There was an issue in those days with us not necessarily knowing about prosecutions, but now-----
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I have just one more question. There were horses on the grounds on Friday.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Am I right in believing they were moved on Saturday morning-----
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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-----even though the licence was revoked on Friday and the abattoir was told to cease operating? Those horses are still in the care of the owner of Shannonside Foods. Should they be seized on animal welfare grounds?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I asked the Minister whether he would do that. Is that afoot?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I advise the witness that that is considered to be a little too tight of a question, so he should not answer it. That is the legal advice I have received.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question for HRI.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I might also advise the Deputy that we have been here for four hours and that there are witnesses who need to go home.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I understand. I am grateful they are still here.
There have been 641 thoroughbreds slaughtered so far this year, as reported in The Irish Mirror last week. Thoroughbreds are not bred for slaughter like other animals in the food chain. They are bred for racing. I will not ask the witnesses from HRI whether they would be embarrassed about that, as I know that the horse racing industry is working in the capitalist system, which is fine, but should HRI have any duty of care to the thoroughbreds in its industry? People make a great deal of money from them and HRI got €76 million in taxpayers’ money last year. Six hundred and forty-one is a large figure, is it not?
Mr. John Osborne:
The country’s thoroughbred population is 40,000-plus. The expected mortality rate in that number of horses, which have a life expectancy of approximately 16 years, is 6%, so one would expect 2,500 animals to die every year. Within those figures are probably animals that are young. Some are middle aged and some are older.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Some would die or be put to sleep in a humane way, but I am asking about the numbers being slaughtered.
Mr. John Osborne:
There are only two routes, namely the abattoir and euthanasia. The ones that are euthanised have to be disposed of through the knackery system, and their number is counted as well. The number the Deputy quoted is slightly reduced on last year’s, but it ties in with the expected mortality rate of a herd of 40,000 plus horses.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Osborne believe that, in receiving taxpayers’ money, there is a duty of care on the industry to have a birth-to-death plan for the horses that make it a great deal of money?
Mr. John Osborne:
We are proud of the care. We have 30,000 people working directly or indirectly in the industry, with approximately 10,000 who dedicate their daily lives to the care of those horses. That is where the action is in terms of the care and well-being of our horses. We are proud of those people.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I know many of them. I live in Kildare, and I know many people who work in the equine industry, who love their horses and who were horrified by what they saw. There is a duty of care and this is a matter that HRI should consider. Kildare is the thoroughbred county. Ireland’s reputation and our care of horses, particularly in Kildare, are important to those who make money and a living out of the industry. There should be some kind of birth-to-death plan for horses that are bred for racing. I am not a vegetarian or vegan, but these horses are bred for racing, not for the food chain.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. After four hours, we might call the meeting to a close. I acknowledge the witnesses who appeared before us from the Department and the two other organisations and allowed us the opportunity to discuss this important issue. I apologise for the break. It was unfortunate. I acknowledge the witnesses’ commitment to ensuring that we got the information required. On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their contributions.
The committee’s next meeting will take place on Wednesday, 3 July at 5.30 p.m. when we will examine the Department of food, agriculture and marine’s statement of strategy 2023-26. As there are no more matters to discuss, the meeting is adjourned.