Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 30 May 2024
Committee on Public Petitions
Business of Joint Committee
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I nominate Deputy Buckley.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I second that.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is okay with me.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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We can start our meeting. The question is that we defer the minutes of the private and public meetings on 22 and 23 May 2024 for agreement until the next private meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I wish to read some of our usual, formal notices before we start. I remind members of the constitutional requirements that members must be physically present within the confines of the place which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in the public meeting. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.
Our first item of business concerns petition No. P00030/23 to create a walking and cycling greenway on the closed railway from Sligo to Athenry. On behalf of the committee, I wish to extend a warm welcome to our witnesses from the Department of Transport today, namely, Mr. Garret Doocey, assistant secretary in the land transport division; and Ms Elizabeth Hayes, assistant principal officer from the national roads, greenways and active travel division. I also wish to acknowledge and welcome the petitioner, Mr. Brendan Quinn, and his fellow campaigner, Mr. John Mulligan, on behalf of the Western Rail Trail who have joined us in the Public Gallery to view proceedings today. Hopefully, some people from the Western Rail Trail will be able to join us online. Mr. Garret Doocey will read out his opening statement on behalf of the Department of Transport. I suggest Mr. Doocey makes his opening statement for approximately ten minutes. We will then have questions and comments from members. Each member will have approximately ten minutes. Members may speak more than once. I call Mr. Doocey to make his opening statement.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I thank the Chair. First, I thank the committee for its invitation to the Department to contribute to the discussion on this petition, which refers to the creation of a walking and cycling greenway on the closed railway from Sligo to Athenry. As indicated by the Chair, I am the assistant secretary general with responsibility for land transport in the Department of Transport. I am joined today by my colleague, Ms Elizabeth Hayes, assistant principal officer from the greenways unit.
State investment in active travel infrastructure, including greenways, is primarily funded through the Department of Transport’s Vote. This allocation is provided for under the current programme for Government which commits €360 million per annum to be spent on walking and cycling infrastructure over the lifetime of this Government. Of this €360 million, €60 million is allocated to the development of national and regional greenway infrastructure per annum. The Department of Transport has responsibility for overall policy and Exchequer funding in relation to greenways. The planning, design and construction of the greenways programme is a matter for Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, in conjunction with the local authorities concerned. In its role as the approving authority with responsibility for the greenways programme, TII provides allocations to local authorities on an annual basis. TII works with the local authorities through their regional management structure. This includes consideration of new greenways subject to capacity and funding constraints. If a local authority opts to submit a greenway project for consideration and it qualifies for inclusion, the project will commence at phase 0 of the TII’s project management guidelines. There are currently approximately 70 schemes in the greenways programme.
I wish to emphasise that our Department’s greenways programme typically relates to those greenways over 20 km in length. I am aware that other Departments’ funding programmes, such as the outdoor recreation infrastructure scheme, also fund projects which can be branded as greenways but these are usually of a shorter distance.
In considering the petition regarding the installation of a greenway along the closed railway line from Collooney, County Sligo, to Athenry, it is appropriate to distinguish the route into three sections corresponding to the relevant county boundaries between counties Galway, Mayo and Sligo. I will start with phase A, as we call it, which is from Athenry to Milltown. This project is at phase 1, that is, the concept and feasibility stage, which has been completed for this section. This is the second stage of a defined eight-stage process for greenway development, which I mentioned earlier. The principal output associated with this phase, which is the feasibility report, concluded that the on-rail line option was the most direct option. It considered a range of options including adjacent to the rail line, adjacent to the local road network, off-road network and adjacent to national road network.
As a point of clarification, the scheme ends at Milltown as it was felt to be an appropriate termination point, given that is the last town in Galway before the county boundary, that is, there are no population centres between Milltown and the county boundary.
It is envisaged that a final version of the all-island strategic rail review report will be submitted for Government approval in both jurisdictions shortly and will be published immediately after. A draft version of the report was published in full in July 2023. That draft report recommends the reinstatement of a single-track line between Claremorris and Athenry via Tuam. This is identified in the all-island strategic rail review as a short-term target, that is, to be commenced by the end of 2030.
I understand the suggestion of accommodating both a railway line and a greenway within the railway corridor has been raised at this committee on previous occasions. Notwithstanding that and without any prejudice to the options selection process that must be undertaken, the Department of Transport understands that the disused railway line from Sligo to Athenry was designed and operated as a single railway line only prior to its closure. This means the corridor width is constrained, which is an important factor in considering whether a greenway can be accommodated within the existing rail corridor adjacent to the railway line if the latter was restored. This challenge was also referred to at the committee’s meeting on 11 April. As an example, the Mullingar to Athlone railway corridor was originally designed to accommodate two railway lines which meant that a greenway route could be installed within the existing railway corridor without disrupting or impacting the disused railway line.
I will move onto section B, which is the section from Claremorris to Charlestown. The draft all-island strategic rail review contains no current rail reinstatement proposals from Claremorris to Charlestown. I understand there is a good working relationship in place between Mayo County Council and TII’s representatives in relation to progressing schemes included in the existing greenways programme that are being funded by the Department of Transport. Almost €5 million has been allocated to Mayo County Council in 2024, principally to cover the costs of eight greenway projects in the county. A full list of allocations can be found in the submissions document which the Department submitted to the committee.
As I mentioned earlier, the sponsoring agency, or local authority, is obliged to submit a case for funding to the TII for consideration. To date, no submission has been received by the TII from Mayo County Council in relation to progressing a greenway route between Claremorris and Charlestown. A feasibility study cannot be completed on a greenway scheme that has not been submitted for consideration of funding by the relevant sponsoring agency for review by TII. I understand that an existing barrier relating to a greenway route in this location stems from a commitment in the 2022 to 2028 Mayo county development plan, which commits, under movement and transport objective 9, that "the Western Rail Corridor (WRC) is protected and preserved for the delivery of Rail Infrastructure to develop the region and the corridor is completely removed from any feasibility study in relation to any proposed greenway". This objective within the county plan obviously presents an issue in considering any greenway funding application if one were to be made.
Finally, in section C, which is from Charlestown to Collooney, County Sligo, the draft all-island strategic rail review contains no current rail reinstatement proposals from Charlestown to Collooney. A greenway scheme is currently being progressed between Charlestown and Collooney. This project progressed to phase 2, that is, options selection, of the aforementioned eight-stage process in early 2024. A second non-statutory consultation on route corridors was completed in February 2024. There are currently six potential route options being considered, one of which includes the disused Claremorris to Collooney railway line. It is envisaged that a preferred route will be selected and published in late 2024.
The Department welcomes the interest taken by the committee on this matter and for the invitation to meet it today. My colleague and I are happy to take any questions that members may have.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Do members have any question or comments on this?
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank the Chair and the Department. I wish to make a general comment first. This is the third hearing on this petition and it is important to say that petitioners can come to this House and have their cases heard. They can participate in some of the discussions and they can listen and have questions answered. As a general comment, it is useful to say that this a good example of ordinary people being able to come to this House, not just through their politicians, but directly, to make their case for whatever their petition might be. I wish to make that comment first.
To come to the specifics as to what we are looking at today, I am not going to make any comments on what happens in Galway or Mayo.
It is for the elected representatives from there to comment on and ask about that. What I am interested in is the Charlestown to Collooney route and, of course, the SLNCR, which would continue the rail line through County Leitrim and on to Enniskillen - a really important cross-Border project. As Mr. Doocey said, we are in phase 2 of the Sligo greenway, there are six potential route options and we will know the preferred ones by late 2024. Progress is being made on the SLNCR, which is at stage 2. Maybe part of the reason we are here today is to seek clarity. Just last week, I tabled an oral parliamentary question for the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, on the western rail corridor and the possibility of greenways, railways or other projects. Most of us in these Houses are sick to the teeth of hearing that the final review will be published. It is really holding everything up. Things are in abeyance because we do not have clarity on what is going to happen. The Minister has said there are issues over the fact that the Assembly in Northern Ireland was not up and running and that this has held things up. Nonetheless, we need clarity on what is going to happen. While we had a draft rail review, we need the final document before we can examine and assess the proposal, make comments and push forward with policy, whatever that is going to be and whether it is from this Government or the next.
Leaving all those matters where they are, because we can work only from where we are today, I want to make one or two comments. The main one concerns the fact that there seems to be almost a competition between railways and greenways. I am interested in hearing what my colleagues have to say about this. The competition is totally unnecessary and takes away from progress that can be made now and also in the future. A long time ago, as chairperson of the Council for the West, I fully supported the western rail corridor. I have never moved from that position, but if Government policy is not to move forward with the rail link from Charlestown, the rail corridor will be available in the meantime. We are at stage 2 of the greenway and I fully support the building of a greenway. It would result in the keeping of the railway and it would be in public ownership, and the line could be handed back to Iarnród Éireann at any given time – within six months, I believe. Regardless of whether a future Government accepts or changes what is in the rail review, the line can, in accordance with policy, be used as a railway.
Building a greenway simply preserves the rail line and in no way has a negative impact on the line’s use for a railway in the future. I asked the representatives of Iarnród Éireann about this on the last occasion, and I am now interested in hearing whether Mr. Doocey has any views on it. The representatives of Iarnród Éireann were quite clear that the greenway project would have no negative impact whatsoever. Sometimes you have to go with what is available and not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. In this case, we are finished stage 2 of a greenway and should proceed with it. I do not see the purpose of the disagreement. The purpose of the proposals is to open up the region. A part might have a greenway and a part might have a railway. It may all be railway in the future – we do not know – but we should take the opportunities presented to us now.
In the context of there being a greenway, does Mr. Doocey envisage any negatives? I am referring only to the building of a greenway north of Charlestown in the context of a railway possibly being put in place in ten or 15 years. I will not give a precise timeline. Are there any negatives from that point of view? In the opinion of Mr. Doocey, when can we genuinely expect to see the rail review so final decisions can be made and people can be clear about where we are going from here?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I thank the Deputy for those questions and observations. I will start with her second question to provide some of the context to the overall position. I agree that it has taken a while to get from the launch of the rail review to where we are today. We had hoped and expected to be in a position to publish much earlier than now; however, we are where we are in some respects. The report was published in full last year in draft from. I acknowledge that the Deputy stated that. It was published in full with all the supporting documentation and analysis underpinning the draft recommendations. It was published for the purpose of consultation, primarily for strategic environmental assessment purposes, and it was open to people to make observations. Observations were made on all elements of the rail review and this has allowed us to bring the review, in terms of the environmental assessments, to the appropriate point. We are now getting ready to submit the report to the Government for approval, as the Minister outlined last week or the week before in the Dáil. I cannot quite remember when. It is a matter of putting all shoulders to the wheel to have it approved as soon as possible. We are just in the process of preparation of a memorandum for Government, etc. With regard to timelines, that is where we are at. It is a matter of proceeding as quickly as possible.
On the Sligo element, the rail review as published for public consultation did not propose a reinstatement of the line the Deputy referred to, as outlined in my opening statement. There is a greenway proposal in train – pardon the pun – and it is in phase 2. That project is progressing through the eight-stage process. That is the current status of the greenway on the corridor in question.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Is there any timeline for when the Department will go through the various stages? I am not asking for specific months, just an indication as to when the project will be completed or at least at the point of construction.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
We are quite a while away from that, to be brutally honest. I cannot really put a timeline on it. Our core focus at TII and local authority levels is getting ready for the selection of a preferred route at the end of this year; however, with infrastructure projects like this, it can always take a length of time before we are ready to put shovels in the ground. That is the truth of it.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I accept that, but “a length of time” could be six months or six years. Can Mr. Doocey narrow it down in any way?
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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On average.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Doocey.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Doocey for his presentation. We have been through this. I thank all those who have appeared before the committee, put forward their cases and discussed this issue. Deputy Harkin is right that we should not be having a competition and that we should be trying to focus on results. That is really what we want to try to do.
We are in a new age in which we are seeking to decarbonise our transport system. Most people in rural Ireland have to have a car; there is no other option for them to go to work or an appointment or do whatever they have to do. From that perspective, the development of rail and the redevelopment of old rail lines that have been discontinued are matters that the Government in Ireland and governments almost everywhere else in the world are considering so as to have more people using public transport that is reliable, safe and affordable. In that context, I am firmly of the view that we need to open the western rail corridor all the way to Sligo and beyond, and do so with urgency. I realise this might not be in the draft report that has been published. That said, there are many recommendations that have been in final reports for 40 years but have never been implemented, and there are plenty of recommendations that were never in reports that were implemented.
What really strikes me about all of this is that we do need to put greenways in place. We need to develop both leisure and infrastructure for tourism, etc. That needs to happen. At the same time, we have to recognise that the priority needs to be to develop critical infrastructure for the transport of people and goods. In that context, we need to be trying to put every effort into driving forward and opening the entire western rail corridor to develop the Atlantic economic corridor, as many people have discussed for the past two decades. We need an alternative to the imbalance that we have on the east coast to move some of that economic activity to the west and putting critical infrastructure in place is one of the keys, including linking centres of economic activity, such as Galway and Sligo.
I understand the frustration of people looking for decades at a piece of rail line, which has been lying there and nothing happening with it, and asking whether we could put a greenway way on that and whether that is not the best thing to do with in the meantime. While I absolutely understand where that comes from, we have to look at it in the context of the here and now. We are not where we were 40 years ago; we are here. We are in a situation where we are looking forward to developing appropriate public transport. The western rail corridor will be central to that and will be central to the redevelopment of the west. That is why we need to come together and push Government to ensure that we can deliver the corridor as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
I have a couple of questions in that context. Mr. Doocey mentioned that the Sligo aspect of it has the application in for the greenway and it is at stage 2. Following on from Deputy Harkin's question, in other circumstances how long has it taken to get through each stage? If we look at other examples where greenways have been proposed, approximately what kind of timeline is there to go from stage 2 to stages 3 and 4? I do not expect him to come down to the day or the hour. Approximately what kind of timeframe is there in respect of that?
In the context of developing rail infrastructure which we see happening in some places, one of which is the Foynes line from Limerick, what kind of timeline has been in place to do that from when it was proposed to where we are at now and where it will be when it is finished?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I appreciate the Deputy's perspective in terms of the overall development of infrastructure in the west.
On the Deputy's two specific questions, it is best if we come back to him with a look back at analysis of greenways projects through the various stages to give a definitive answer as to how long typically they might take. It can vary considerably, as he will be aware, depending on the project. Some can get held up for years and others go through relatively quickly. We will come back - it is probably best - rather than give any misleading information here.
In terms of rail infrastructure, it is a long period of time. The Deputy mentioned the Foynes freight line. I was involved in the drafting of the national ports policy in 2013, which called for that rail link to be restored. That gives an indication of how long, in terms of rail infrastructure as well. It is not a short process from concept to boots or diggers on the ground. It will take years.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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However, that is happening now. From when it was at stage 1 to where it is now, how long did it take?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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There is a rail order.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Doocey and Ms Hayes and thank them for their presentation. I will not rehash questions I have asked previously because, as Deputy Harkin said, it is the third time we have dealt with the western rail corridor. Anyhow, I have to go and catch a train to get home and I cannot stay here too long. I now leave my car at home an odd day and I use the train.
Wonderful things can be done with that western rail corridor but I tend to agree with the two previous speakers. I get the feeling there is a distance between two groups that should not be there. Maybe I am wrong on that but I have looked and I have read a lot on this. That should not be the way because there is good can come out of both of these situations.
I have looked, and we have the wording of the county plan from 2022 - 2028. Mr. Doocey states:
an existing barrier relating to a greenway route in this location stems from the commitment in the 2022 to 2028 Mayo County Development Plan, which commits, under MTO 9, that: The Western Rail Corridor (WRC) is protected and preserved for the delivery of Rail Infrastructure to develop the region and the corridor is completely removed from any feasibility study in relation to any proposed greenway.
I have dealt with many local authority issues in my time and the wording hits me as a total block. I could be wrong.
Realistically, we are all common-sense people here. This will not come onstream, if it does, for many years. In the meantime, is there not a grave danger that we will fall between two stools and that this line will fall into disrepair? If that happens, whatever option we go with, it will cost a great deal more to do. I understand from talking to some of the railway staff that if that had to go in, it would have to be moved off again in time; so be it. In the meantime, to preserve that and to allow the greenway to be open up, could not that be done and would that not make sense?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The objective was inserted in the county development plan by the elected members in exercise of their statutory functions in the development of the plan. From a funding perspective, if a funding application were to come in from the local authority relating to a project that the development plan simply excludes effectively, that would be a barrier to providing funding. How could funding be provided to something that the development plan says cannot be funded effectively? Therefore, we have an issue with that current objective with regard to the capacity of TII to consider a funding application for it. That is a fundamental issue here.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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What about the decline of the railway line? It could get caught between two stools. I am a big fan of rail travel. I leave my car at home an odd day now. It is lovely. We should be looking at this in terms of falling between two stools and that line, whatever the final option, falls into more disrepair. A project might never be delivered if this happens - if it is left there - but if it is delivered, it will cost a great deal more if the line is left there, year after year. Mr. Doocey himself knows this.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
To clarify so that everyone has a common understanding, first, as I said in the statement, the draft All-Island Strategic Rail Review does not propose a reinstatement of that particular section of the line. Second, on the Senators comments around the line falling into further disrepair, the corridor is the most important thing in the reinstatement of any of the sections of the line, be it Athenry-Claremorris or northward, not the infrastructure that is there. That will all be taken up and new infrastructure will be put in, if it is a rail solution. That would be the case on the Athenry-Claremorris line as well. It is not a case of, to be slightly flippant, cutting back the weeds and letting a train roll on the tracks that there are.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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When we get to that, materials could be a lot more expensive.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Before I let Deputy Harkin back in, I will come in. I represent east Cork. I have the benefit of the fact that it took us nearly 15 years to get the Cork-Midleton line reinstated. That line used to go to Youghal. We had many well-attended public meetings on restoring the rail line to Youghal and, obviously, taking traffic off the N25. At the time, obviously, it came down to money and development charges, which makes it very difficult to reinstate it. I was listening to the other contributors and made a few notes. They were on about costs, etc. We were told at the time, because of the original costs, that Midleton to Youghal was not viable at the time and the alternative was a greenway.
By creating a greenway, it is cost neutral to put the tracks back on it afterwards. Also, and I have not heard anybody ask, are these proposed greenways on a lease? Apparently, greenways are on a lease down our way so there is a chance of flipping it back up.
Obviously the demand exists, and I have been lobbied many times by very many people, especially all along the route from Midleton to Youghal. I agree with them that by getting connectivity back and opening up these rail corridors, it encourages outward growth, towns definitely benefit from it, the carbon footprint is reduced because cars are off the road, plus tourism is huge in my area. You are visiting Youghal, which is by the sea. It is kind of a no-brainer. There is a need to explain to people that creating a greenway takes time when people work together, because I have heard some say that there does not seem to be the joined-up aspect. I read the draft all-island strategic report because I had been on to TII, or it could have been the NTA at the time, because we do not have a joined-up railway link between Midleton and Youghal, and I asked could they not put in a park-and-ride and have the bus go from Youghal to the train station in Midleton as a connective corridor while the greenway was being built. The greenway is absolutely jammed. I have never seen so many cars in the carpark on any day I visited. There are benefits of a greenway as well but it is just trying to get the balance. In an ideal world you would love the railway and greenway going together.
Sitting on the outside, because I am conscious there are witnesses in the Gallery, I wonder how you are going to find a balance between it. Mr. Doocey is right. You have the county development plans. They are the blueprint of democratically elected councillors who sign off on that. They are on a separate plan, there is the Department's own one, and then you have the all-island strategic rail plan that is only after coming out after it being written about five times. Again, possibly it was the TII that said it was not envisaged that a park-and-ride would be put in and we would get connectivity in east Cork from Youghal to Midleton, yet in the strategic draft report, it is mentioned it five times. It also mentioned putting back the railway line from Midleton to Youghal. It seems to be very scattered. It seems like, and pardon the pun, that there are three trains running on three separate tracks and none of them are ever going to cross. I think, and this is only me coming from my side of it, that there has to be a serious review of how county councils and Department work, because once they are coming up with these all-island strategies for connectivity, I do not think you are going to get a solution. That is where everybody seems to be because I heard Mr. Doocey saying that if it is not in a county development plan, it is not meant to be. If it is not mentioned, there is no opportunity to get grant funding for it. Does Mr. Doocey know what I am saying?
I looked at it and we are in a place where it is greenway versus railway, but it is good for both, so how do we find that balance? I am sitting here listening as a neutral but I have seen the experience in my area of the benefits of a greenway and the benefits of the connectivity of the railway. Neither seems to outweigh each other but I feel both of them should be put together. I know what Mr. Doocey is saying about money and costs and if you keep delaying things, the costs go up over the years, but what is the cost-benefit of having proper rail corridors in the country? What is the cost-benefit of having proper greenways? You exercise for the good of your mental health and everything. I have seen the benefits of both, but it is not for me to make the decision here. As the observer, all I would say is I think there is a long way to go before we start finding a balance between what everybody needs to get here.
I will hand back to Mr. Doocey before I hand it over to the members.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I will make two comments on that. How do you find the balance between two different perspectives? Within the early stages of the eight-stage process, with phases 0, 1 and 2, the route options selection process can take those different perspectives into consideration. Its job is to look at all of the existing policies and different perspectives. The corridor has been established in the earliest stage and then it is about, within that corridor, what is the best option for progression. Elements of what has been mentioned can be accommodated within the project management guidelines and that structured gateway process.
Generally on the comments about the Midleton to Youghal experience and the all-island strategic rail review, etc., we as a Department visited various projects in the Cork region and we were brought to the Midleton to Youghal greenway. It looks like a fantastic project. Effectively what you have is that the corridor has been preserved by the creation of a greenway.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. That is what I was saying about the lease. People need to know that a lot of work goes on with road crossings and bridges and who will take responsibility for them. I always say to people to be very hopeful or optimistic. When there is a lease, there is a possibility that the project is open to change and progression. I will hand back to the members, starting with Deputy Harkin.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Doocey for his response. He did say that when the rail review is published, all of the analyses underpinning the decisions will be available. I will be interested in looking at that and seeing what it says. Sometimes when looking at a sparsely populated region, or perhaps more sparsely populated than other parts of the country, an economic analysis often does not give enough credibility or weight to the potential for new infrastructure, whatever it might be. We have to look at the big picture. We are looking here at the upgrading of the N17. We have seen some of the upgrades of that road and the massive difference they have made to road safety, journey times, etc. We also need to look at the Sligo-Dublin rail link and the need for double tracking on parts of that railway corridor because of the times. Earlier Senator Murphy mentioned that he would be travelling home by train, and I did not have time to ask him how long it would take him to get there. It is not just about having a railway in place. It is also about the speed and how efficient it is for the people who use it. There are a lot of different bits and pieces of the jigsaw that we have to balance because we have only so much money we can invest. The Government takes those decisions ultimately and they can only be taken when we have the various pieces of analyses underpinning decisions. Dr. John Bradley has a report on the reinstatement of the western rail corridor. All of these pieces of information need to be put together when decisions are being made.
Right now, we are at the end of stage 2 of the greenway, or we will be by the end of this year, so money has been spent and that potential exists. There are no negatives to building the greenway that anyone has spoken of. The Chair has spoken about how towns benefit and tourism increases. Therefore, in its own right it has many positives apart from local people using it for walking and recreation. It also has quite significant economic benefits. Sometimes in our part of the world we look enviously at the Waterford greenway and others to see the huge potential and benefits they have brought to those regions. Equally, a western rail corridor would bring benefits, but right now we are in a position where we are at least a quarter of the way, and maybe further, with building a greenway. The project has no negatives so we should proceed with that.
Then we must also look at the bigger picture of the different pieces of infrastructure such as the N17, the Sligo-Dublin rail link and the western rail corridor, following which decisions will be taken in the context of the moneys we need to spend in the region.
I am one of those people who is always talking about the fact that we do not get our fair share, so I am not going to suggest it is anything other than that. We need a great deal of front-loading just to make up ground and try to address the imbalance that is there. We can only do that when we have all the information in front of us. We are talking about costs.
My only question to Mr. Doocey at this stage is whether has been an analysis of the cost of greenway versus railway. I understand that it depends on where you are starting from, but we know what condition the western rail corridor is in. Mr. Doocey probably has a good idea of what would be needed to either restore it to make it into a greenway or to literally rebuild it. We talk about a rail line, but it is not a rail line. It is basically scrap metal on a corridor. We know that. In very general terms, do we have any figures relating to the cost of building a greenway or that of building a railway?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I will start by reflecting on some of the points the Deputy made earlier in respect of the Sligo-Dublin rail link and the improvements to it. In that instance, those type of issues were covered off. Recommendations in respect of them are included in the draft all-island strategic rail review that is to be published. There are proposals regarding to the Sligo-Dublin rail link. I assure the Deputy that it was not just a purely economic analysis underpinning the all-island strategic rail review. It was analysis formed around objectives. I am trying to remember whether we had five, six or seven strategic objectives, but economic value for money was only one of them. Obviously, an economic analysis needs to form a part of any big investment infrastructure programme. It is there, but it was not just solely based on the cost-benefit analysis.
Regarding the Deputy's earlier comments, the analysis underpinning the all-island strategic rail review was published last summer. It is still available on the website and, obviously, will be available throughout when we finally publish the report that sits on top. It is all there on the website and available to view.
On the Deputy's question on costs, if you were to drill it down to euro to euro in the context of a greenway, the cost would vary quite a lot on the basis of particular topography, etc. However, in a simple euro comparison, a greenway is cheaper than a railway. If we look at the published draft all-island strategic rail review for the Athenry to Claremorris section of the western rail corridor, which is recommended for reinstatement to commence by 2030, we can see that - I am working from memory here - that an indicative cost of €400 million to €600 million is provided. I may be slightly wrong on that, but the figure is in that ballpark . The draft review is, as I said, available on the website. That gives a sense of that cost. The cost of greenway is roughly €1 million per km, but it can depend on certain considerations..
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Does Mr. Doocey know the distance of the Athenry to Claremorris section off the top of his head?
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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It would just give us a ballpark comparison. Mr. Doocey mentioned €600 million-----
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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It is just to give us a sense of it. Ultimately, value for money does matter, whether you are building a greenway or a railway, and we have to look to the future and at what we spend now. I would not approach this with my eyes closed and opt for A while neglecting B. That is the reason I am asking the question.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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The proposal for the Athenry to Claremorris section is there and there are indicative figures in respect of it. That is welcome, because we need to have something on which to we can base stuff. One of the points made by Senator Warfield related to the Mayo county development plan referring to the exclusion of greenways. I understand this. I have come across situations in the past where there has been work done to open up greenways on the routes of old rail lines, particularly some of the old narrow-gauge rail lines. The problem with this is that farmers whose lands were located adjacent to where this work was being done started foddering the cattle on the high ground that was dry. They then they built sheds and yards on that ground. Some houses were even built on it. One of the biggest obstacles that arises when you go to do these things, and I am sure Mr. Doocey will concur, is when there has been an invasion of that space by either adjacent properties or whatever. From that point of view, I imagine the thinking is that they make sure nobody else can put anything in that area so that it is free for what the potential long-term use is going to be, which would be a rail line. I imagine that is where this notion came from. Whether it is workable or not, we need to understand that.
What we need to do is ensure that the corridor is made free to open up a rail line; if not this year or in ten years' time, then at some point in the future. That future is coming at us very fast. Ireland and all other countries are in a situation whereby there is going to be a need for more public transport. It will become more expensive for people to use private cars. Having a network of public transport everywhere will be necessary. The opening of the entire rail corridor is something we should continue to focus on. Certainly, I will continue to be focused on it as the main priority. That is not to say we do not need to have greenways. We need greenways, but where we have a rail line in place and where there is a determination on the part of the people in a particular region and everyone else to get that rail line opened, we should focus on it as a priority. We should certainly have greenways, but we should not in any way put anything in place that would act as an obstacle in the future. That is the problem people have. If a greenway goes in, people will ask what will happen in the future if we try to put a rail line in place. They will say that there will be objections and complaints and attempts to stop whatever is planned . As a result, people want to retain the rail lines that are already in place. That is the reason this division has developed. It is very unfortunate. We should try to find a way to facilitate both ambitions and we should work together to deliver them. In the context of the western rail corridor, it is clear that we need to see the Dublin to Sligo line linked to a line that runs all the way south and all the way north. If we are going to have balanced regional development, that is what we need to see happen as quickly as possible.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I agree with Deputy Kenny, but I suggest that it is up to the politicians, him, me and others, to try to find the middle ground. He spoke about the fact that people are afraid that if there is a greenway, there will be objections. It is my understanding from the last discussion with Iarnród Éireann that if there is a greenway, it is under licence and if at any time within a six-month period Iarnród Éireann wants that corridor back, then that is the agreement. The fact that the corridor is in place and that it has been preserved is a good thing because it stops any further incursions, such as those we have spoken about. It stops anybody building a shed or whatever and it keeps the corridor intact. Having it as a greenway is not in any way a negative in the context of it being a railway later on. I would like clarification on this matter because that is what Barry Kenny from Iarnród Éireann said when he came before the committee previously.
As politicians, if we do not support both options, that is a different matter, and then we make that clear. However, if we support both, we should be able to find a way that keeps the corridor intact and stops any further incursions or any objections. All of those will be dealt with when the greenway is being built, whether it is going through an SAC or an NHA. That will all be dealt with in the planning. If in five , ten or 15 years' time, a railway is going to be built, all of those planning permissions and issues will have been dealt with. There will be no new ones because the corridor will have been preserved. It is important to get the message out there that there is nothing negative about this. It is not everything we want today, but it is an important step along the way.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I thank both Deputies. My answer might straddle both contributions over the last few minutes. With regard to Deputy Harkin's question it is factually the case that Iarnród Éireann grants a licence for these greenways. That is the factual position on it and therefore the ownership remains vested within Iarnród Éireann-CIÉ. Deputy Kenny made a comment earlier regarding the objective within the county development plan. Obviously, I cannot speak to the motivations that led to the inclusion of it. It was a function of the elected members and it is their right to do so. As a matter of fact, our Department did not support the inclusion of that particular objective and suggested the use of the term "transport corridor" to be reflected in that particular objective. Again, it is a function of the elected members and it is within their rights to make the development plan as they see fit and they made that development plan in line with their statutory functions.
Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Doocey and Ms Hayes for attending this meeting. The discussion had to be had and it was very beneficial to see the different Departments and how they work and how they are maybe not joined up but the committee will consider what steps we will take to open this issue up again. I thank the witnesses, committee members and those who are in the Public Gallery today. We will suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow the witnesses to leave.