Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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We have received apologies from Deputy Richard Bruton and Senator Alice-Mary Higgins.

The purpose of this morning's meeting is to have a discussion about the role of the new chairperson of Inland Fisheries Ireland and his strategic vision for the agency and the future contributions of IFI and the board. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Professor Tom Collins, the new chair of Inland Fisheries Ireland, to the meeting. You are very welcome, Professor Collins.

Before we begin, I will read out the note on privilege. I remind our guest of the long-standing parliamentary practice that he should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If his statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, I will direct him to discontinue his remarks, and it is imperative he comply with any such direction. As our witness today is attending remotely from outside the Leinster House campus, there are limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, he may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present on the campus does.

Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind Members that they are allowed to participate in this meeting only if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex. In that regard, I ask those Members who are joining us online to confirm, prior to making their contributions to the meeting, that they are indeed on the grounds of Leinster House.

I now call on Professor Collins to make his opening statement.

Professor Tom Collins:

I thank the Chair and Deputies and Senators for facilitating me to join them remotely. I have a long-standing commitment to be out of the country today, so it is greatly appreciated. I realise in making this submission that there are probably a number of elements to it. Apart from outlining the strategic vision, which I have come to do in the opening statement, members probably need to know a little about my background and whether I meet the requirements for this challenging post.

Specifically with regard to this role, it is probably useful for me to say that I have had a good bit of experience over the years in chairing what might be referred to, broadly speaking, as environment-related activities. In the 1990s, I chaired the national rural water monitoring committee, which was a national committee advising the Minister on the upgrading of rural group water schemes, which had reached serious levels of problems in terms of quality and meeting health requirements at that time.

In the early 2000s, I was a member of the three-person group that reported to the Government on Atlantic salmon and the impact of drift netting on Atlantic salmon numbers. That report culminated in the banning of drift netting for salmon.

More recently, I chaired the Water Forum between 2015 and 2021. The forum was essentially concerned with the quality of Ireland's fresh waters and progress on Ireland's commitments under the water framework directive.

Regarding my more discipline-specific background, I worked in a variety of contexts regarding the establishment of the new technological universities, which involved significant organisational upheaval and renewal. I have no illusions regarding the organisational challenges that we are facing in IFI, which I will allude to in the paper. That is my personal background, which is probably relevant to deliberations today.

Regarding my strategic vision, traditionally, the view of IFI was that it was an organisation devoted to protecting fishing resources with a particular focus on poaching and illegal activities around rivers and lakes. That will continue to be the case. The organisation runs thousands of patrols every year. There are hundreds of convictions every year for breaches of that nature. This is clearly a focus we have to continue with. The organisation's specific policing role in the context of fishing is important. Ideally, this probably needs to be extended in order to allow us to cover a wider remit.

Having said that, the first of IFI's legislative functions is to "promote, support, facilitate and advise the Minister on the conservation, protection, management, marketing, development and improvement of inland fisheries, including sea angling". We have a much more comprehensive and all-encompassing brief than is captured merely by the policing role to which I alluded.

In that context, we must be very conscious of the wider biosphere and ecosystem occupied and populated by the Irish fishing resource and of the kind of challenges that have emerged in recent decades. Obviously, climate change is one challenge of which we are all conscious. It is wider than climate change, however. Biodiversity loss, water quality and habitat loss are issues that must be of enormous concern to IFI. Water quality is an issue to which I have been close for the past number of decades. Throughout that period, the overall trend has been negative. The 84,000 km of rivers and the 12,000 lakes we have are all exposed in one way or another to the challenges of declining water quality. Ireland has made some progress in halting the worst effects of declining water quality.

The problem is still a very significant one. There are a number of pressures on water quality, the most significant of which is agriculture or intensive agriculture, and this manifests itself in the most intensively farmed parts of the country, particularly the south east, where nitrates and phosphates are major issues. Agriculture is not the only factor. Hydromorphology is a significant one, as is urban wastewater. When all of them combine, they present a multifaceted challenge to Ireland.

The loss of habitats and biodiversity is increasingly captured in a variety of reports. I referenced the work of Dr. Liam Lysaght, the director of the National Biodiversity Data Centre, who alludes to the fact that we only know the conservation status of about 10% of the 31,000 species in the country. Of those we know, one in every five species is facing or threatened with extinction. Many of our habitats afforded legal protection under the habitats directive are also under pressure. We are experiencing, or have experienced, a catastrophic decline in wild Atlantic salmon, the iconic species of Irish fish. The numbers returning to Ireland have dropped from about 2 million in the 1970s to between 200,000 and 250,000 today. Similarly, the eel population is now at about 8% of where we were in the 1970s. I recently read John McGahern's biography or memoir, where he talks about catching eel in the canals and lakes around Roscommon and Leitrim, and you get the impression that the place was densely stocked. Then, of course, there is the threat of various invasive species and other kinds of challenges around biosecurity, all of which threaten the habitats of our fish.

Moving from that environmental context and the challenging nature of it, and that has to be part of shaping the strategic purpose of IFI, we also have to address the issue of the governance and organisational capability of the organisation. I am obviously very new to the role of chair-designate at this point. I have had two board meetings and a briefing from the entire senior management team as well as specific briefings from various members of staff. I am careful about rushing to judgment or taking any position that is not evidence-based or based on knowledge and exposure to the organisation. Of course, as members will be aware, sometime back in the end of 2022, the then board of IFI was stood down on a no-fault basis and two section 18 appointees took on the functions of IFI. They held that role and made a very big, significant and invaluable contribution, I would say, to stabilising the organisation until their contract essentially ended at the end of December.

In that capacity, they engaged with EY, which undertook an organisational review, so we are well informed at that level of what needs to be done. The organisational review identified 11 tasks, ranging in priority from urgent to less urgent. EY outlined the five it considered most urgent, which have to do with clarity among staff about the strategic purpose and strategic vision of IFI and clarity about the relationship between the board of IFI and IFI’s staff and executive. We at least have clarity now around the issues identified by the study and the incoming board has already appointed a subgroup to examine the implementation of the recommendations of the EY report. I chair that subgroup and will work with the two former section 18 appointees over the coming year on implementing the recommendations.

We moved immediately on preparing a new strategic plan for the organisation. Part of that process will help the organisation to achieve coherence – not merely at senior management level, but right through the organisation. I am conscious that IFI was created from a variety of regional fishing boards. I know from my work with the TUs, which are much more recent, that it is never a simple task to bring together organisations, even those with the same broad purpose, that have different histories, personnel and cultures. To meld those into one national body is a challenge. Failure to achieve that will ultimately create an existential threat for the organisation. I have a sense that the new board and I are coming into an organisation that has experienced a great deal of turbulence and where there are challenges of strategic coherence throughout.

I suspect morale is not particularly high. I have not yet had an opportunity to meet and engage with the staff of the organisation, but I cannot see how hard-working and committed staff could feel other than dismayed by some of the challenges that the organisation is facing and the way in which it has gone about addressing those. This leads to issues of confidence in the organisation both within it and among many external stakeholders.

These are some of the challenges that I am conscious need to be addressed. Speaking as chairperson, it will be important to work with the staff and all external stakeholders on repurposing the organisation and trying to ensure it is fit for purpose. If we can manage that, we will begin to look to cognate bodies with whom we share the broad concerns of IFI. There are many in the country, and there are probably opportunities for the synergies and close working relationships that need to be developed and would have a positive outcome if they were.

I am approaching this task very much aware of the challenges we are walking into.

They are immediate and they are ever present, at the moment. They will require a lot of diligence on the part of the new board. They will require very significant efforts on the part of the board to ensure inclusiveness and engagement with staff in particular right through the organisation to build the horizontal and vertical flows of communication within and outside of the organisation and hopefully to imbue the organisation with a new sense of purpose and collegiality as it goes onwards. I will leave it at that and I am happy to take any questions.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank Professor Collins for his comprehensive opening statement. I thank him for stepping into the role of chair of Inland Fisheries Ireland. He has outlined his vast experience and suitability for the role. We, as a committee, are very glad he has stepped up and is taking it on. He has acknowledged the organisational challenges with IFI as well as the strategic challenges, notwithstanding the broader challenge to fisheries in this country.

I will ask members to indicate to ask questions. Deputy Kenny is first.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Professor Collins for his opening statement and for taking on the role. I have a few things we might tease out a little. Professor Collins mentioned the report and the prognosis and that there is a set of prescriptions there and a number of actions to be taken. Some are priorities and are urgent. Have any of those been put in place yet? At what stage does Professor Collins expect the recommendations of the report will be fully in line?

How many staff are working in the organisation? What capacity does IFI have to do work internally? I know some aspects of the work is contracted out and there are consultants and various other agencies that have an involvement. Is there an intention to try to ensure more of the work can be done in house as the organisation develops?

Professor Collins mentioned how the focus has traditionally and naturally been, as the name suggests, on fishing and the waterways and the huge resource they are. However, there are also a number of other things such as the whole environmental context of it. The role our inland waterways has on the environment is very important and is something of which we need to have a proper analysis, particularly around invasive species and issues like that. Then there is drainage in many parts of the country. Sometimes there can be issues with flooding and this is something in which waterways have a crucial role to play. How does Professor Collins see that developing? How can we ensure there is co-operation between all the agencies to ensure that we do not run into the types of problems we have had in the past? In many parts of the country we get serious problems with flooding and we want to ensure we can try to resolve those and at the same time protect the waterways and the environment that they serve.

Professor Tom Collins:

We only received the EY report in January. We have had two board meetings since January. The EY report outlines 11 action areas and gives a period of one year where they expect to be moving on all of them. What we have done is taken on board two of the recommendations explicitly.

One is that a subgroup be established to oversee the implementation of all 11 recommendations. We have done that. The second is that we work on a strategic plan. We have put in place a steering group to start this process. We have begun working on the report. It will be the template for the board's priorities for the next 12 months.

One other thing we have done in the context of ongoing issues is that we have also established a new audit and risk committee. I am very conscious of the scale of this organisation. The Deputy asked about numbers. There are 320 or 330 staff. I am open to correction regarding the precise figure - in the context of it being a few more or less - but it is in that range. The post of head of HR is vacant. It is extremely important that this post is filled to enable us to get a better fix on the numbers and on the deployment of staff. This is probably a better way too of addressing the Deputy's question regarding the use of agency and contract staff. A study done some years ago involving Mazars estimated a full staff requirement of up to 500. We must look at that study again. We will do so now in the specific context of the new strategic plan.

As stated, we have established the new audit and risk committee to try to get a fix on the many risks that an organisation as disparate and involved in so many types of activities as this can encounter. The other thing we have specifically asked this committee to do is provide a report on the recent WRC hearing concerning the dismissal of a staff member. The WRC essentially found against IFI at that hearing. We want to understand what needs to be learned from that experience. We are into a process immediately of trying to learn and trying to fix things, without perhaps rushing to judgment, as I mentioned at the outset.

The point the Deputy made in his final observation is greatly important. I refer to co-operation between agencies regarding all environmental matters, including, as he said, flooding. From an IFI perspective, at any rate, a huge opportunity is being lost in not building close relationships with cognate organisations. I mentioned some of them in the opening statement. The most obvious ones are the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the EPA, which is clearly an extremely important player, and the local authorities, in terms of their water monitoring people and the local authority waters programme office, LAWPRO. All these are relevant bodies and actors working in the field. IFI should not be isolated from them; it should instead be looking at developing synergies with them. IFI should also be looking at finding agreed modes between all of them to address the challenges the Deputy referred to relating to flooding and other kinds of environmental challenges arising from climate change.

It is complex, but the complexity is better addressed if we are all talking to one another and all seeing whether we can find solutions that work for each interest. Flooding is where it all comes home.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank Professor Collins. Senator Kyne is next.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I thank Professor Collins and congratulate him on being appointed. I wish the professor the best of luck in the years ahead in terms of his stewardship of Inland Fisheries Ireland.

I think it is safe to say Inland Fisheries Ireland was born at a period of recession which was possibly part of the raison d'êtreof the amalgamation of the old fisheries boards. I am not sure it has ever worked that well, particularly in the west. It has never garnered the respect or, if you like, love of the angling community in the west, especially those who fish the great western lakes. I wish the professor well in the years ahead.

Professor Collins mentioned the role of prosecutions, the path of poaching, etc. The legal powers of Inland Fisheries Ireland to prosecute for fisheries offences was called into question last year. Does Professor Collins know or would he be able to get us the number of prosecutions or potential prosecutions and fixed penalty notices that had to be abandoned and what the expected cost of this failing will be regarding paying legal fees to solicitors for initially preparing prosecutions file and then having to work on the disposal of these live cases in court? Will Professor Collins's board be seeking a report on this matter? It goes without saying there is a lot of annoyance, upset and embarrassment on the ground among IFI officers after they have done an exceptional job protecting the fisheries only to be told by the CEO at meetings that their cases will have to be withdrawn because of some mess-up or, to quote himself at one of the committees, a glitch.

Professor Tom Collins:

I thank Senator Kyne. The board was informed of the issue at its meeting last week. I understand it has to do with the fact that delegation processes and protocols were not fully exercised over a particular period. We will be getting a report specifically dealing with the questions the Senator has raised. I fully accept how demoralising it must be for people on the ground who are bringing prosecutions and given the work involved in that at so many different levels to find that the cases are abandoned on what are essentially technical grounds. I do not have the specifics on the numbers involved or on the costs, but I will certainly find those out and provide them to the committee.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I thank Professor Collins. He mentioned that the head of HR has moved on - I wish her well - and the importance of filling the role of the head of HR. I will ask about the overseeing of the appointment of a new head of HR, considering there are investigations ongoing regarding the alleged manipulation of processes of senior appointments within the organisation. It is now 15 months since documents were first lodged with the Minister and the Department overseeing this area, and later with the board, raising serious concerns about a very senior appointment within IFI. The board attempted to deal with it but the Minister removed them, as Professor said, on a no-fault basis. It is incomprehensible that the people involved in that long drawn-out investigation are still presiding over appointments within IFI. Is Professor Collins concerned that any applicant who might apply for the position of HR could have confidence in a fair appointment process and that they would be dealt with in a fair, open and transparent way?

Professor Tom Collins:

I would consider that confidence in processes is a fundamental requirement for any appointment in an organisation and I would be confident.

We have not actually discussed the process of the appointment of a new head of HR, although at board level we have already strongly emphasised the urgency of such an appointment. If there are any doubts or if there is no assumption of openness and transparency in the process, that is not a good place to start. That assurance has to be given in how we move the process forward. It is a key appointment. As I said, there are more than 300 staff distributed around the country. They will need the support and engagement of a professional and capable head of HR, so it is a key appointment and I assure the committee that we will be scrupulous in how we go about the process.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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It is somewhat reassuring that the board will be scrupulous in overseeing that. Investigations that relate to the processes of other appointments are ongoing, so I do not share the confidence that this would be dealt with fairly by IFI. I am sorry to say that.

I am not sure whether my time is up. Is it all right to continue? Yes.

Has Professor Collins read the damning report by the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, on a recent case of the unfair dismissal of an IFI employee dated 14 December?

Professor Tom Collins:

I have.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Will he be discussing the report with the board or does the board have any reflection on what it says about the role of senior employees, especially the CEO?

Professor Tom Collins:

It is important to say that the report has been accepted by the board. The report will not be appealed. The substance of the report has been accepted. I mentioned earlier that I have asked the audit and risk committee to look at the report and bring forward any recommendations, findings and lessons IFI needs to take from the report for discussion at the next meeting of the board, which will take place on 27 February, if I recall correctly. It is a live document. We are open to learning from it and taking on board the lessons we can glean from any investigation such as the one the WRC conducted.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I am delighted the report was discussed at the committee. Did the committee decide not to appeal or was that decision made by the organisation? Will Professor Collins come back to us with a summary of the legal cost of defending this case, which was compromised from the start by the extraordinary behaviour of a senior employee?

Professor Tom Collins:

Without making any comment on the behaviour of an employee, I will say that the decision not to appeal was a collective decision of IFI. That is the first thing to say. Second, I have not yet looked at the cost of defending it, so I will come back to the committee with that.

I do not know what they were, but I am clear that in any hearing of this nature and no matter what organisation you are involved in, you have to look at it from certain angles. They relate to whether the position of the organisation at the outset was tenable, and if it was not, where its exposures were and how we can ensure there will not be a recurrence of the patterns that led to a situation in which the organisation would lose a case at the WRC. You absolutely have to look at your processes throughout, and that is what we are doing.

I do not know what the costs were but I will revert to the Senator on that.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I thank Professor Collins. On a similar-----

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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The Senator has had enough time. I did not hear in Professor Collins's opening statement reference to the challenge of barriers to fish migration. This committee will hold a series of public sessions in the coming weeks on the challenges relating to migration, spawning and so on, and we hope to bring in the relevant persons from IFI to speak on the issue, as well as other stakeholders. Perhaps, as chair of IFI, Professor Collins can speak to that challenge, leaning on his extensive expertise. That might set us up for the sessions we will have in the coming weeks.

Professor Tom Collins:

The board has had a presentation from the head of research at the organisation. The organisation is involved in a barrier mitigation programme and is about to appoint 12 new staff with a full programme of €1 million annually up to 2027 on barrier mitigation as part of a €50 million to €100 million capital programme. A barrier assessment programme is ongoing and it is about to be upgraded or ratcheted up in its intensity. The programme has been led by Dr. Cathal Gallagher, who is head of research and development at the organisation, and its urgency is almost self-evident. It is probably going to be set up within months and the new barrier mitigation endeavour will then get under way. I can, again, provide more details on the programme to the committee via the person in charge of it. In any event, based on the assessment work done by IFI, it is about to move into the beginning of a new phase of barrier removals.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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In the same vein, we are aware the ESB will publish a new policy on barriers to fish migration, as I understand it, in the coming weeks and months. Has IFI engaged in detail with the ESB on this work?

Professor Tom Collins:

Yes, there has been interaction with the ESB. The policy was discussed at our meeting last week.

It is obviously a major player. Its decisions and actions have a profound impact on the work of IFI. It is a relationship that we probably need to develop and understand better to see how we can be more impactful on ESB decision-making. It is possible that ESB's decisions around its role have an impact, and sometimes an unplanned consequence, on fishing, which is perhaps commensurate with the IFI's role. Working together, we can do some significant things. There has been engagement with ESB. It is in the early stages but the sense I have is that it is an engagement that needs to be enhanced and strengthened. The ESB itself needs to be conscious of its responsibilities with regard to fishing and the fish resource in its systems.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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This committee has an oversight role with respect to both IFI and the ESB. This is an issue that we have some ownership of and are working on. We welcome as much input from IFI as possible because the intention of members is that the committee positively influence the ESB work that is to be published, in my understanding, in quarter 1 of next year.

Professor Tom Collins:

That is very positive. It is a major player with which we need to be able to interact on a parity of esteem basis.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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On greater co-operation between different organisations and IFI, including the NPWS, EPA and local authorities, a few months ago, someone from the IFI was before the committee talking about how it is common sense that IFI inspectors work together with the NPWS. That would double the resources tackling wildlife crime. It made complete sense for that to be the direction of travel. In his new position as chair - he referenced it in his opening statement - how does Professor Collins foresee engagement with the NPWS and getting the agency on board to work co-operatively to tackle wildlife crime together? It would double the number of inspectors if that co-operation was to come about.

Professor Tom Collins:

I take on board the Senator's point fully. The first element of building that relationship is that we start talking to each other and that there is regular interaction between senior management of the NPWS and the board and senior management team of IFI. There is enormous scope for closer engagement, synergies and-or joint actions between us on the inspection front and others. The first part would simply be that we actually begin to meet and talk. If that happens, there might be some fiddling around the edges with legislation but it is not necessary, from what I can see. We both have powers but if the NPWS team had the same powers as the IFI team and it was reciprocated in the other direction, that would suddenly create hugely enhanced resources around protection. There needs to be a debate around penalties, sanctions and punitive measures for environmental crime and how fit for purpose they are.

We probably need to have a discussion nationally on whether the punishment fits the crime. For example, what should a punitive response to the perpetrator of the deliberate pollution of a stream, with resulting fish kill, look like? There is probably an argument for a zero-tolerance approach to destruction of habitats, particularly waterways, as well as pollution episodes and poaching. I suspect that historically or culturally a view may have been taken that it was all right to do some of this. In the case of poaching from a landlord's rivers and so on, there might have been a tolerance for this kind of behaviour formerly. However, we now need to recognise it for what it is, namely, environmental crime that is cumulatively threatening the survival of various species. Going back to the Senator's question, part of the discussion with the NPWS might be about joint understandings of the effectiveness of the legislative and judicial processes in acting as a disincentive to any kind of environmental destruction or crime.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I have a short follow-up question. We do not do sharing of information and powers very well in this country. Professor Collins may not have had those initial meetings with the NPWS but is the mood music good for that co-operation to take place and those meetings to happen? The biggest concern is that people become very protective of their powers, role and remit.

Professor Tom Collins:

I take the Senator's point on doing siloed work and not sharing well. We do not do it well. There has been an ongoing development in the role of various groups with an environmental protection focus in the past two decades. With regard to water, I reference the development of the local authorities water programme, the IPA, the various inspectorates associated with Irish Water and the various environmental inspectorates associated with organisations such as Teagasc and the world of farming. All of us need to be speaking to each other. We could begin there, without an agenda other than exchanging our world views and taking a shape then on what collaboration and co-operation might look like formally. I am struck by the very low levels of even informal interaction between these many bodies at the moment, however. I would like that to begin with some kind of forum or annual event where these people are brought together and look at the world with the understanding that they are all working through a prism that is an entity of itself. I would like to do that. I refer to the new board of IFI, the composition of which is very interesting.

For instance, there are two former county managers. There is a former assistant secretary at the Department of the Environment and Climate Action. There is a person who came from IMI and another who came from the EPA. We have around the table representatives who were formerly attached to a very wide of bodies, all of which have a legitimate and cognate interests in what we are doing in IFI. I hope to be able to move that resource into a conversation.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Thank you.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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It has come to my attention that there are fiercely concerning accusations in circulation among IFI staff members in the west and north west that unsecured high-powered deer hunting rifles and unsecured live ammunition have been transported in IFI-owned vehicles by senior staff members in Donegal. Is the chairperson aware of this serious matter and could he investigate it further? The reason I raise this matter with him is because I do not believe the correspondence, which I have seen, is being taken seriously by IFI management and I have notified the Garda about this matter.

Professor Tom Collins:

No, I was not aware of that allegation. I had not heard of it until this moment. This is the first time I have heard of that. Yes, we will of course do an investigation of it. This is a completely unacceptable case but I have not heard of it.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Is it appropriate that IFI vehicles in Donegal would be used in personal time by senior employees for deer hunting and transport of deer carcases? I understand that vehicles have tracking devices so their movements can be verified. Again, that is information that has been put out there. I ask that, as part of the same investigation, this matter could be looked at as well.

Professor Tom Collins:

Yes, of course we will. It is of course not acceptable that this is happening but it also draws attention to the need for a really comprehensive risk register in IFI and for a complete understanding in the kinds of things that can happen and go wrong in an organisation as large and as geographically dispersed as IFI. Yes, of course we will investigate that as well. As I said, I was not aware of any of these allegations until this moment.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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The chairperson is aware that both of his predecessors resigned from their role as full-time chairperson and I wish him better luck. That is Dr. Frances Lucy, as interim chairperson, and Mr. Fintan Gorman before that in April. Does Professor Collins intend to contact his predecessors to get a better feel of issues and the circumstances of their resignations? Certainly, the last resignation by Dr. Frances Lucy, as interim chairperson, made the board inquorate and led to its dismissal. I know the board at that time was carrying out a series of investigations, got legal advice and, as I understand it, was making very serious decisions which fell because the board became inquorate. Does Professor Collins intend to look back on board documents or minutes or engage with his predecessors?

Professor Tom Collins:

I had not actually thought about the question of engaging with predecessors because, in one sense, the board members who have probably been most impactful from my point of view are the two section 18 appointees who have occupied that position, as the Senator will know, for the past 12 months. I have had several meetings with them and have been absolutely thoroughly briefed by both of them. My sense of it is that both of them continue to have a formal relationship with the organisation so we have a formal basis for that interaction, which in the past I would not have had if appointed to the role of chair.

In other words, I would have been inclined not to seek any briefing from the former members, partly because at that point it is hearsay. It is informal. When the informal becomes formal, formalising informalities can be tricky, especially in the context of an organisation that is in the midst of the kind of storms that IFI is in. I do not have a principled problem with doing it. I have not felt the necessity to do it up to now, largely because I have had the insights and knowledge that have been garnered by the two section 18 appointees. That has sustained me. There are, of course, the reports-----

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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That is a decision for Professor Collins. I am sure he will be busy anyway. It might be something worth considering. I am nearly finished. Professor Collins will be aware of the saga in RTÉ involving Toy Story: The Musical and all that went on there. IFI is obviously subject to a governance rule that any capital expenditure of over €50,000 has to be approved by the board, similar to RTÉ. That is not the overall package. Individual projects over €50,000 have to be approved. Professor Collins will be aware that some €219,000, plus VAT, was expended in Aasleagh Lodge in County Mayo without reference to the board. No approval was got from the board for that a number of years ago. Is it Professor Collins's intention to look into that matter? I raised it with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, when the Appropriation Act was going through the Seanad before Christmas. It is a concern that sanction from the board was not sought in that instance.

On a similar and final note, Professor Collins would be aware of the debate at the public accounts committee, where the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, referred to a number of things. He drew attention to a change of the chief executive's normal place of work from IFI's headquarters in Donegal to the regional office in Ballyshannon in November 2021. He said this had implications for the claiming of expenses by the chief executive. He said that they found no contemporaneous written record of a proposal for the work location change, its financial implications, or of a decision in that regard by the board, which was responsible of setting the terms and conditions of the chief executive. This resulted in the CEO getting €5,400 in expenses that he would not get without the change of contract, which the board would have had to decide on.

There are issues regarding decisions not going through proper procedure in the board. It is something to be conscious of. I am sure Professor Collins, with his vast experience, will be conscious of it. It is important that we also learn from past governance issues, look into those and see if there are issues of concern going forward.

Professor Tom Collins:

Absolutely, Senator. I was not aware of the specifics of the Aasleagh Lodge expenditure of €219,000. On the issue of the expenses of the chief executive, I understand he has returned an agreed portion of those based on his interaction with the two section 18 appointees. That matter was addressed under the statement of internal control, which was examined at the board meeting last week. We are aware of that issue. That one has been closed off but I am not aware of the detail of the Aasleagh Lodge issue. We will look into that as well.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Professor Collins mentioned that the organisation has been in the storms. I think that is certainly the case. We all look forward to and hope for finer weather ahead under his stewardship. I detect a certain note of caution in some of his answers, which I think is quite understandable in the circumstances. Are any employees or past employees under investigation in the organisation, such that Professor Collins has to be particularly careful regarding all of this?

Professor Tom Collins:

No, not that I am aware of.

The caution the Deputy referred to is probably inherent anyway. I am also aware that there is a lot that I do not know. There is a lot that I need to feel more secure about in my own assessments and judgments when I have accumulated the evidence. I would be very happy to meet this committee again, at a time of its choosing, when there is greater clarity around some of the issues. I am learning material about the organisation to some extent, some of which is entirely new to me. On that basis, I would be cautious but I am not aware of any investigation such as the Deputy has referred to.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is there potential to get us to a place reasonably quickly, with the implementation of the recommendations, so that we can be in a situation where that fine weather can open up and these storms can be put behind us? While there may be past issues, and certainly they need to be examined and lessons learned from, we all want to get to a place where we have an organisation that functions well, has a certain cohesion to it and has its act together. We all want to get to a place where everybody is working effectively together and the tension and conflicts of the past are put behind us. Does Professor Collins believe that within the year that he has to implement the recommendations, we can get to that stage?

Professor Tom Collins:

Yes, I would not take it on if I felt we could not do that. It needs to be done quickly. I would be hopeful that it can be done. I would be concerned for the organisation, for staff members and, in particular, for people who are hard-working and doing their jobs, sometimes in difficult circumstances in the countryside, on riverbanks and in lakes. They have to feel secure in the organisation they are working in. They have to have confidence in all elements of it. They have to know that if their work is done competently and with integrity, that work is valued and appreciated and gives a return.

I am very concerned that we address the many issues that are in the organisation. It is without a doubt an organisation with very significant problems but they are not insurmountable and I am hopeful that we can address them. At least we now have a template in the form of the EY report. We have a shared awareness within the board, which is a small board, as the Deputy knows. There is a strongly shared commitment on the board to get this ship right and to deal with the problems as we have them. Some of them are historical and are very difficult to deal with but I always work on one principle, which I heard enunciated by a former chief inspector in the Department of Education, whose mantra to incoming inspectors consisted of two questions, namely, when did you hear about it, and what did you do about it? This new board has heard about it in the past month, since it has taken up position, and will be judged on what it does about it. We cannot do everything but we can certainly deal with the fundamentals.

The organisation needs confidence in it from its own staff as well as from its external stakeholders. That confidence has to be based on trust, on a sense of openness and a clarity that people do what they say. I hope we can do that.

It is not just an organisational change that is needed; a culture change, at the very core, is needed within the organisation. I hope we will be able to manage that. At least we have already named it.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Kenny and Professor Collins. I do not have any other members indicating, so we are at the end of the session. I thank Professor Collins for joining us. I also thank him for answering the questions of members and non-members as candidly and with as much clarity as possible, particularly in view of the fact that his appointment to the role is recent. Notwithstanding the challenges that exist and that have been outlined by members, IFI has an extremely important role to play in the protection of our water bodies and the biodiversity within them as we move forward. The matter is in Professor Collins's hands. His CV is excellent. I wish him well in the context of the governance aspect and the broader challenge of reversing the decline in biodiversity in our watercourses that we have seen in recent decades.

Professor Tom Collins:

That is greatly appreciated. I thank the Chair and the members.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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Thank you, Professor Collins.