Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the committee I welcome the Foreign Minister of North Macedonia, Dr. Bujar Osmani. The Minister is joined by his adviser, Mr. Musa Xhemail, the former ambassador of North Macedonia to Ireland, Ms Aleksandra Miovska, and the chargé d'affaires, Ms Biljana Gligorova. Today we will discuss North Macedonia's EU accession progress and other matters.

Before we begin, I have a housekeeping note on privilege that applies here in the Parliament. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if a statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit a member to participate if they are not adhering to this requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

With that bit of housekeeping and legality done, I call on the Foreign Minister of North Macedonia, Dr. Bujar Osmani to make his opening statement to our committee. We had a chance to say “hello” outside. It is great to have him here. We look forward to hearing from him. A number of members will welcome the opportunity to engage with him in the follow-up.

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

I thank the Chair. I thank all the members of the committee on European Union Affairs for this opportunity. It is my great pleasure and honour to be able to address your esteemed committee.

Many things and similarities connect North Macedonia and Ireland. I will start with one of them. It is an honour for me to mention the renowned Mother Teresa who was born in Skobje in 1910. She felt strongly the call of God and at the age of 18 left her family and home and joined the Sisters of Loreto, an Irish community of nuns with missions in India. After a few months’ training in Dublin she was sent to India where, in 1931, she took her initial vows as a nun. This is a deep spiritual bond that ties us together as small countries. Furthermore, our countries have for a long time faced predicaments in our own histories. What we strive for nowadays is to add another positive and reassuring resemblance, to repeat Ireland’s successful European story in North Macedonia and to become a successful and thriving society as Ireland is today.

The most important example refers to what we are faced with today in our EU accession path, which is at a critical juncture, to make it or break it once again. We concluded the Prespa Agreement with Greece in 2018, then changed our constitutional name in 2019 and after many struggles, opened the accession negotiations. Since last July we are again faced with a similar bilateral challenge, namely, to open the constitution once more and insert the members of the Bulgarian community in the preamble to the constitution. Being a successful multi-ethnic country with the most progressive system of protection and promotion of cultural rights, this condition would not have been controversial. However, our bumpy EU accession road that started with the association agreement, signed in 2001, with many unfulfilled promises that followed, has made our citizens tired, disappointed and frustrated with support for joining the EU dropping from 90% to a historical low of 60%.

What connects us once again as countries is one similar critical juncture of yours that took place some 50 years ago. After it passed, its implications seemed analogous to the implications these constitutional changes might have for North Macedonia. To many members, it probably rang a bell already. I am referring to Ireland’s referendum in 1972 when most of the country’s population supported European Union membership but still had to make a difficult compromise on freezing certain parts of the constitution. The referendum was successful and today Ireland is one of the most pro-EU countries. The reason for this EU zeal lies within the abundant benefits Ireland has enjoyed throughout the years, thanks to the EU.

The investment from the Structural and Cohesion Funds, European Social Fund or profits from the EU agricultural policy, the EU Research and Innovation Funds and trade, were all incremental economic gains since Ireland’s succession to the Union. My hope is that we will have the same political courage. In November, screening of the initial phase of the accession negotiations ends. We will then be able to implement the constitutional amendments and move towards the real productive work of opening our key clusters and chapters. North Macedonia has established itself as an avant-garde and confident role model in south-east Europe. We are 100% aligned with the EU’s Common Foreign and Security Policy. On rule of law, we perform and score better even among already negotiating countries. We are a responsible and reliable NATO partner. We contribute to the EU’s and NATO’s support to Ukraine, including militarily with weapons, and we share with responsibility and caring the most difficult circumstances of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE.

That is why I can openly say in front of this committee that North Macedonia has proven its EU credentials with its own smart and visionary peaceful policies in the past 30 years within its borders, towards its neighbours and internationally. It has built a vibrant multi-ethnic democracy, cultural dialogue in peaceful bilateral dispute solving, good neighbourliness and regional co-operation strongly abiding by international order based on values and norms. What more European behaviour and contribution could be asked from a prospective candidate for membership at these difficult geopolitical times for the whole Continent? Seeking and achieving compromise on any given issue is what lies at the core of the Union since its formation. North Macedonia has never made shortcuts around meeting EU criteria and will continue along this path. That is why it should be given the chance to catch up and converge with the EU’s core. That is why, as I often say lately to our European friends, we should inject the utmost credibility in the process and do more integration before membership. Who knows, we might also finalise this process here in Dublin where, in 2004, the application for our EU membership was handed over? I thank the committee members for their attention.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Osmani. Some people have indicated already. I call Deputy Howlin.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and the minister. I also welcome him and his colleagues to our committee and to our country.

I compliment North Macedonia for its forbearance and patience because the route has been an extraordinarily long one. I detect from Dr. Osmani's presentation more than a little frustration with that and that is absolutely understandable. It takes a while for countries to comply with the Copenhagen requirements and with the acquis communautairebut there seem to be specific obstacles being put in the way of North Macedonia. From this committee's perspective, and I think I can speak on behalf of all political parties and groupings, Ireland is very supportive of the quickest possible accession of North Macedonia to the European Union. That is our national perspective and it would be useful to hear from Dr. Osmani how we can be of assistance in that.

My particular questions are as follows. Some of the obstacles were understandable such as the issues with Greece in terms of the name. I cannot recall any other member state of the European Union being asked to change their country's official name to be considered for membership. That was an extraordinary, positive thing and underscores the enthusiasm of North Macedonians who agreed with that in a referendum in order to be fully part of the European family and integrated into the European community. The Bulgarian issue is a little more opaque to me. I would be interested in hearing Dr. Osmani's perspective on this. If the Bulgarian issue has been largely resolved, are other issues still to be resolved? If that particular obstacle is overcome, what other impediments can he see to North Macedonia fully meeting the criteria and being welcomed into full membership of the European Union, as he says, hopefully in the immediate future?

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

I thank Deputy Howlin for his kind words of support. I agree with him that Ireland has been a staunch and consistent supporter of North Macedonia's EU perspective. This is acknowledged and recognised not only among political elites but among ordinary citizens in North Macedonia. We are so grateful for this. Our bilateral co-operation has also been strengthened due to this continuous support Ireland has been providing to our EU journey, which has been extraordinary as the Deputy said.

We started this journey back in 2001. We were in a group with Slovenia and Croatia. We signed the Stabilisation and Association Agreement with the European Union just a few months after Slovenia and a few months before Croatia. Everyone expected that this would be the first package of countries that would join the European Union from that part of the world. Then all of a sudden, North Macedonia was detached from this group because the European process was bilateralised mainly for us. As the Deputy said, specific impediments were introduced which made this journey very difficult. In 2004, we applied here during Ireland's Presidency with the EU for membership. In 2005, we were granted candidacy status. Every single year since 2009, the European Commission has been recommending to the Council that North Macedonia has met the criteria to start the accession negotiations. Every single time it has refused this objective recommendation which is based on the Commission's non-biased reports. Experts prepare those reports. However, because the decision is adopted with unanimity, there was always a country that blocked this process. Finally, in 2018, we signed the Prespa Agreement.

This year in June, we will mark the first jubilee and the fifth anniversary of the signing of the Prespa Agreement. We had to change the name of the country which implied we needed to change the constitution, and we organised a referendum back then. We told our people that if we did this, our path to NATO and to the EU would be secured. The accession to NATO happened and that was one of the biggest victories of our foreign policy. It was our first and most important strategic priority. Being situated in a very difficult region, historically on a battleground between the West and East, it was important for us to be part of the security umbrella that NATO provides. This happened and we are so pleased that during these dire geopolitical times with the war of aggression in Ukraine, we are a credible member of NATO. We are also contributing to our regional stability as well.

However, EU membership did not happen because then Bulgaria front-loaded its request. Our perception about the EU process was that this was about meeting the Copenhagen criteria, that is, the political and economic criteria and transposing the EU acquis to our society and not solving bilateral issues through the vehicle provided by the EU process. As a result, first people felt a disappointment and a sense of betrayal. After the name had been changed, everyone expected the process would be fast-forwarded to the EU. Now one of the conditions to move forward in the process is to reopen the constitution again to introduce the Bulgarian community in the preamble of the constitution. As I said during my introductory speech, if this road had been a normal road, this request to reopen the constitution would not have been controversial at all. North Macedonia is a unique model of functional multiethnic democracy. I say this as someone who does not come from the majority community, but is today a Minister for Foreign Affairs of a multiethnic North Macedonia. However, this feeling that the EU process has become a moving target and that there is no end to it and no credibility in the process, is what frustrates people.

The Deputy asked how it was going with Bulgaria and if I could clarify this process. Unfortunately, it started as an anachronistic way of doing bilateral relations with Bulgaria. History, and different interpretations of history, were introduced into the EU process. The EU is the opposite of this. The EU is about accepting diversity and multi-perspectivity in interpretations of the past as well. During the negotiation process with Bulgaria, we managed to shift the focus from issues of history towards human rights, minority rights, and issues related to the EU acquis and what the EU is about. Therefore, the decision was made to reopen the constitution, introduce the Bulgarian minority and to strengthen relations between the state and all minorities, regardless of their size. Based on the latest census, we have around 3,000 Bulgarians in North Macedonia. However, it is our position that everyone in North Macedonia would enjoy individual and collective rights regardless of the numbers of their group and we will ensure people enjoy those rights. We hope this is not just one of the impediments in the process but rather, after we complete the constitutional changes, we will finally open the first cluster of negotiations about rule of law, fighting corruption, fundamental rights, and about introducing the values of the EU in the country. It is finally the time that the EU negotiation process becomes an EU negotiation process and not a platform or a vehicle to solve all possible bilateral issues that candidate countries have with members of the European Union.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. It is all very positive that the necessary moves are being made and that North Macedonia is assuaging any difficulties there may be. I also add my voice to what Deputy Howlin has said in that it has been a long road.

Not to mix analogies or metaphors but we have all been down this road before in the sense - and it is not the first time I have said this - that we were not very serious about accession for a period of time. We recall the time when Turkey was obviously discussed and was put on a backburner for obvious reasons. There was an element of fear within the European Union around rule of law issues which it had itself and there was probably an element of it having to sort its own house before we would consider everything else. It is probable that North Macedonia might feel that it did not get particularly well treated. I am aware that a number of other countries which had been engaging had stated that they had no difficulty in having to reach the Copenhagen criteria and in having to follow a particular roadmap but the difficulty was that there was no particular roadmap.

The Ukrainian crisis and the changed geopolitical circumstances since the Russian invasion have changed everything. There was obviously going to be a conversation with the discussion of Ukraine, Moldova, and Georgia. There is also an acceptance, and I am going to ask our witnesses' view on this, that the western Balkans did not get a fair run in this situation. Is North Macedonia reasonably happy that the interaction which is happening now is better and that it is finally on a roadmap towards accession? Where does it see the major obstacles and what really needs to be done to facilitate this happening, while accepting that everybody has particular conditions which they need to meet? Dr. Osmani spoke about the rule of law issues.

I also ask because there are particular problems in the Balkans now where people will talk about Russia and its many tentacles across many countries and that there are wider games at play, and so forth. Has North Macedonia itself come under any particular issues from external forces at this point that could also militate against this journey into the European Union?

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

I thank the Deputy so much for his question. The Western Balkans is geographically, economically, historically and politically part of Europe and we believe it to be part of the European Union. When one looks at the map of the EU one will see that it is surrounded by EU member states so it is not the backyard of the European Union but is a patio and is in the heart of Europe. I often say that it is a wound at the moment in the body of Europe and, as I have a medical background, I say that wounds serve two purposes. Either they are bleeding points or entry points for germs. This is what happens if one leaves a region in the heart of Europe unattended which could have consequences for the entire body and the entire European Union, having also the influences which the Deputy mentioned there.

However, the region has come a long way. From a region that 20 or 30 years ago was in the war trenches, this region today is debating the creation of a common regional market.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My apologies for interrupting but I accept that North Macedonia has come a great distance if we are talking about the 1990s and the fact that a great number of these countries were at war with each other, in a particularly horrible genocidal war. We have all seen, however, that there are particular issues if one is looking at Republika Srpska now, and while North Macedonia is most definitely part of Europe and a great deal closer than even some of the countries we are talking about with regard to accession, North Macedonia is nevertheless ensconced in some of these particular issues just from a geographical point of view.

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

There is no alternative for us to the integration of the Western Balkans into the European Union for geographical reasons. In 2003 during the EU Thessaloniki Summit, a pledge was given to the Western Balkans that its future was in the European Union. The energy which was unleashed from this promise has served as a driving force for the reform agenda in the region, including in the rule of law area. Yes, there are weaknesses at the moment but there is definitely very significant progress compared to ten or 20 years ago. This is mainly a result of this energy arising from the promise that this region will have a future in the European Union.

Another thing that is important is that this energy served as a cohesive tissue for the different conflicting narratives in the region. These countries which were fighting each other just 20 years ago are talking today about building a common regional market as a preparatory phase to integrate into a single European market. This promise of membership into the European Union has been instrumental for peace, stability, and the progress of this region.

Unfortunately, since 2003, there have been no deliverables and the credibility of this promise failed. As this credibility weakened, the strength of this energy to push the processes forward also weakened. As the Deputy knows, in geopolitics there is no vacuum so if one leaves an empty space, all of these tentacles which the Deputy has mentioned will try to fill the space. We have been seeing that in the region.

I must say that last year was an important year with regard to progress because finally we saw some deliverables. North Macedonia and Albania started accession talks, Bosnia-Herzegovina was given candidacy status and Kosovo was given visa liberalisation. We had a substantial breakthrough, if I can use that word, in the process. We need now to maintain this credibility.

I believe that the Russian war of aggression in Ukraine has raised the awareness among the European member states that EU integration of the Western Balkans is not only an administrative process but has a very significant security component. If the European Union would want to have a more strengthened geopolitical role it will have to consolidate its lines from within. One cannot move forward without consolidating the wounds one has in one's heart and this, I believe, is the Western Balkans. We have shown ourselves to be a reliable partner. North Macedonia is a member of NATO since 2020. In the past three years, we have shown ourselves to be a most reliable partner of NATO. Today we are the fourth country in NATO per capitafor providing military support to Ukraine. I say to interlocutors in the European Union that this is what the EU will also get. It will get a partner which is reliable, that shares its values and will work together towards making a better region and continent. North Macedonia has proven that.

We have built a functional multi-ethnic democracy which is a unique model that is serving as a reference point not only in the region but even beyond it. Today, I am chairing the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, and I travel in conflict regions throughout the OSCE area. I can see that North Macedonia's model can apply to many conflict areas. This is because what we have achieved is as a result of this EU perspective, which has been unique. Also, our culture of compromise, of dialogue, and our ability to establish good neighbourly relations in a very difficult region is a showcase that the EU should also respond positively to, as it should towards countries which have made every effort to meet the criteria which the EU has introduced.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Osmani call Deputy Haughey to speak now, please.

Seán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair very much. The Minister is very welcome and I thank him for his presentation and for his kind comments in respect of the Irish position. As Dr. Osmani knows and mentioned in his speech, we joined the European Union 50 years ago and, of course, it was France which was blocking the UK accession to the then EEC.

As a result, we could not join if the UK was not allowed to join at that time. We understand other countries blocking a country's accession and we sympathise with North Macedonia in that regard. I think my colleagues have asked the questions I had in mind but perhaps I could draw out some more information from Dr. Osmani on that matter. On the 60% support for EU accession, the decline in support is understandable based on what Dr. Osmani said about the frustration of the electorate regarding progress. Deputy Ó Murchú mentioned outside influences and Dr. Osmani referred to a vacuum. Will he expand on that further? Does he mean a Russian influence attempting in some way to scupper North Macedonia's plans? I would be interested to know who Dr. Osmani thinks is filling the vacuum or who may, potentially.

My other question relates to the whole region and the Western Balkans. I appreciate what Dr. Osmani said about the requirements of European security and the need to take into account geopolitical considerations as well as the Copenhagen criteria. We support North Macedonia in that regard because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the changed situation. It seems to me that the President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, is very supportive of North Macedonia's application. As Dr. Osmani mentioned, the Commission is happy generally with what North Macedonia has done but it seems she is particularly invested in this, having regard to the visits she has made to North Macedonia. Regarding the Western Balkans, Serbia, Albania, North Macedonia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro, is North Macedonia's application tied up with progress in those countries? Does Dr. Osmani feel North Macedonia can break free from the Western Balkans and have its application accepted on its own merits? How does it fit into the politics of the Western Balkans region and the applicant countries? Is North Macedonia being held back because of the lack of progress by its neighbours?

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

Even though the principle should be individual, merit-based progress of candidates through what are known as the regatta principles, in reality, it is a system of connected vessels in which a situation in one country could affect the situation in other countries in the region. North Macedonia has become a litmus test for the credibility of the European idea in the region because of the extraordinary journey it has to go through. When in Serbia, Kosovo or Bosnia and Herzegovina, European officials would say they need to move on with difficult reforms because it would strengthen their EU perspective and usually the response was "look at the case of North Macedonia". It did everything, even changing the name of the country - which no one would do - for the sake of the process. Therefore, North Macedonia's file has influenced the dynamic in the region. What will happen with us will reflect the decision of others to move forward in the process. North Macedonia and Albania have been introduced as a couple in the process. A risk of that is not having progress in one of the files would endanger the progress of the other. There are open files in the region, one of which is Bosnia and Herzegovina, where I am going the day after tomorrow in my capacity as chairman-in-office, CiO, of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, to see if we can help in the process of state-building and reconciliation. Then, there is the Belgrade–Pristina dialogue between Kosovo and Serbia, which will certainly be an impediment in the overall progress of the region if a solution is not found. North Macedonia plays an important regional role. I remind the committee that a Belgrade–Pristina dialogue took place in North Macedonia, which was a recognition and acknowledgment of our models and our new role as a regional contributor as a NATO member in the region.

On external influences, the Russian Federation has never offered an alternative to the region. However, by maintaining latent conflicts open and flaring, it maintains its leverage and influence. If we want to limit malign influences in the region, we need to close the open files, which means Serbia and Kosovo should continue to implement what was agreed in Ohrid, North Macedonia, and move ahead in the European process. NATO's open door policy should be maintained in the region. Three of six countries are now members of NATO, North Macedonia, Albania and Montenegro, and we must encourage other countries in the region to do so. What is most important is for the EU to realise the importance of its presence, credibility and enlargement policy. This is the only way to close the space for any kind of external influence in the region.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Ó Murchú. He indicated he wanted to come back in.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We can go in the same order again.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is not quite clear to me, in response to Deputy Haughey's question, whether Dr. Osmani believes that North Macedonia's application is hinged on progress in, for example, the Belgrade–Pristina dialogue. Is that what Dr. Osmani suggests? I thought the North Macedonian position was that it performed everything it was asked and it should not be linked to any other regional dialogues, difficulties or processes. Should North Macedonia progress regardless of what transpires in the region? Does Dr. Osmani accept it is intrinsically linked with other ongoing processes? Regarding my previous question on the Bulgarian issue, has North Macedonia got a clear and final determination that the changes it is now embarking upon, including constitutional changes dealing with Bulgarian ethnicity, is a final issue and nothing else will be introduced? Is that an understanding North Macedonia has with the Commission?

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

I will start with the second question. Based on what is in the papers and the document the EU has approved, this should be the last one. However, EU enlargement is a unanimity-based process. We calculated that between opening and closing all 35 chapters, there will be more than 130 unanimity votes in the Council of the European Union. So 27 member states could, 130 times, block the process for whatever reason they want, whether the rivers are clear or the air is clean, and use it as a pretext. If we go through what is written on the papers, in the negotiating framework, then this is the requirement that North Macedonia should fulfil to open the first cluster of fundamentals.

That mainly includes Chapters 23 and 24, which deal with the rule of law and fundamental rights and are overarching throughout the negotiating process.

On the Deputy's second question, there is no direct link between North Macedonia's path and the Serbia-Kosovo dialogue. What I was talking about is how closing this file or dispute between Kosovo and Serbia, which should end with mutual recognition, would close the space or diminish the leverage of external forces to influence the region and possibly destabilise it. It will boost the region in terms of overall progress and introduce speed into the Europeanisation of the region. At the moment, North Macedonia's file is dependent on Bulgaria's stance and our internal dynamics to meet the criteria.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept the difficulty relating to 130 votes and having to keep 27 member states on board at all times. Dr. Osmani stated that there have been successful moves in the past year. From that, I take it that North Macedonia is finding the EU to be more receptive than it was previously. He believes North Macedonia has gone above and beyond from the point of view of settling Bulgaria. Nothing is guaranteed but Dr. Osmani believes North Macedonia is on as good a footing as possible. His contention is that in the context of geography, economy and society, but particularly that of current geopolitical considerations, it is absolutely necessary that the EU meet all members of the Western Balkans, accepting that they have steps to make, some of them have not taken as many positive steps as North Macedonia has taken and there are outstanding issues. I presume the argument is that strengthening the hand of those that want to see progress towards the European Union weakens the hand of malign actors. All present can accept that. If there is anything the State or the committee can do to in any minor way facilitate North Macedonia, such as in the case of major stumbling blocks that may arise, Dr. Osmani should put that on the table.

Obviously there has been some sort of common regional economic framework or-----

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

Market co-operation.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As Dr. Osmani stated, as North Macedonia is so interlocked anyway, it makes sense, but, beyond that, it is almost a starting point to entering the wider Single Market and so on. I have no doubt North Macedonia is dealing with a cost-of-living crisis, the significant level of inflation and so on. Since the war in Ukraine in particular, all countries have experienced an energy crisis. It is an issue not just of climate change but also of energy independence, ensuring there are supply chains in place and all the rest. Where is North Macedonia currently situated in the context of those issues? As regards malign actors, we are in a very different world. It is no longer about straightforward conflict; it is also about dangers from cyber, hybrid warfare and so on. I have thrown a considerable number of confused questions at Dr. Osmani but I ask him to do his best to reply.

Seán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I will summarise the questions.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked three questions in one.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's questions are wide-ranging. He covered a lot of ground.

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

I came to Dublin from Washington. Yesterday, we signed a memorandum with the US State Department on building the capacity of North Macedonia's institutions to fight disinformation and propaganda, which are increasing. They are endangering important processes. We are doing the same with the European Union, as well as within the regional co-operation framework. This is the challenge of modern times. It goes beyond our borders. Every country is facing this challenge and we need to have close communication and co-ordination in order to fight cyber and hybrid threats and build joint capacities in countering those threats.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is North Macedonia dealing with a significant amount of disinformation and cyber threats?

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

Exactly. In 2018, we had a referendum on changing the name of the country. The entire process was endangered due to propaganda that came from outside North Macedonia. It was well orchestrated through proxy players in the region and the country in order to undermine that vital process. If it had succeeded, that would have undermined our NATO membership. It was a showcase of what incidents that sometimes appear benign look like when there is an important process to be undermined and how they can suddenly have the scaffold and infrastructure to do damage. That was a lesson learned, not only for us in North Macedonia but beyond. Therefore, we are now working very hard to build national capacities. This is not an issue that a country can tackle alone, however. It does so within alliances and partners. As cyber threats and hybrid threats do not recognise borders-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This is the last time I will interrupt. Has North Macedonia engaged with social media companies? The time is right. They are set up perfectly to almost provide malign actors with a weaponised system.

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

For almost two months, we experienced a campaign during which tens of elementary schools and kindergartens received almost daily emails containing bomb threats. Every day, we had to evacuate elementary schools, causing trauma to kids and spending the resources of the police forces to go through checking and so on. That was one version of the hybrid threat. Who knows what those behind it were aiming for? They may have been attempting to test the capacities, defocus, traumatise and so on. This threat is multifaceted. Our national strategy is inclusive in terms of involving not only state institutions but also private stakeholders and taking a whole-of-society approach in order to be more effective in countering these threats.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is all the questions from members. I will not ask any questions as they have been well covered by members but, as Cathaoirleach, I will reiterate a few points. It is important to reaffirm Ireland's commitment to and support for North Macedonia's application for membership. Ireland has shown that from the start and will continue right the way through. I know Dr. Osmani will have further engagement with the Government on the issue during his visit. I come from a very pro-European background. I believe in what Europe is and stands for.

What North Macedonia's application process shows, as Mr. Osmani has very articulately outlined today, is the real dilemma that now face the European Union, rather than North Macedonia itself, with regard to the Union's collective will to deal with enlargement and to operate in a way that encompasses and shows the generosity of spirit evident in 1972 and 1973, when we were joining, and to bring that through to 2023.

Without a shadow of a doubt, as a Union, we have had a wake-up call. What the conflict in Ukraine has shown clearly is that horrendous war can evolve quickly out of a vacuum. What the European Union and its member states need to learn from that is what is at the heart of Europe. I totally agree with Dr. Osmani's assessment. There are applicant countries and member states that are side by side. If we do not work together to embed a solution for Europe, that vacuum will be filled by very malign actors who will take the opportunity to act through various channels, whether overt and criminal war or the type of thing Mr. Osmani has just been discussing, the modern version of cyber war that is designed to undermine and effectively destabilise a state or the existing structures within it. Fundamentally, that is possible because of the vacuum. In North Macedonia's case, it is very clear that, if everything is being done to fulfil the criteria and to meet the requirements, Europe needs to respond with that same generosity of spirit I have talked about to ensure that vacuum does not develop. That is the challenge facing both sides and that is why North Macedonia will have our continued support. There is no question that the real future of Europe relies on enlargement, strengthening and the involvement of those countries that wish to be part of the European Union family. It is up to the existing member states, through the European institutions, to make that happen. I wish Mr. Osmani the very best of luck in his work and in the other work he is doing on the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe side. It is very important. We really do appreciate this opportunity and the time he and his officials have given to engage with us here this morning. I thank him very much for that.

Dr. Bujar Osmani:

I thank the Chair very much. What he has said will be music to our citizens' ears. This is what they want to hear from the European Union so that they can trust the process and so that there will be credibility behind this perspective. As I have said, Ireland has served as an inspiration for us as a success story within the European Union. The consistent support Ireland has been providing to us has been instrumental in the continuation of our endeavours to overcome the challenges we have been facing on the road. We are not saying that we are ready to join the EU tomorrow. We are asking to be introduced to the process that will get us ready to join the EU in five or ten years' time. Joining the EU is about meeting the criteria and going through that merit-based process. That is what we are asking for. Unfortunately, non-EU-related issues are impeding this relationship between the EU and the candidate countries. We are grateful for Ireland's clear stance in that regard. I thank the committee very much for providing me with this opportunity today.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We have been joined by a member who has just arrived this second. We are in the process of concluding so I ask the Senator to keep his remarks very brief. I will not necessarily ask Dr. Osmani to respond.

Vincent P Martin (Green Party)
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I can only anticipate what was said but I also totally support North Macedonia's application and admire its government for the quality and professionalism of the way it has gone about it. I concur with other contributors and associate myself with their remarks. I apologise that I could not be here earlier but I have read the submission and have been following the meeting. I thank the Chair for allowing me to say those words.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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The Senator is welcome. It was no problem at all. With that, I thank everyone who has attended here today. The meeting is now adjourned sine die.