Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith fíorfháilte a ghabháil le gach duine a tháinig anseo inniu chun a gcuid cur i láthair a dhéanamh. All are very welcome and my thanks to all of the witnesses for giving up their time to make their presentations here today. Inniu, is é an t-ábhar a bheidh le plé ag an gcomhchoiste ná an ceol in Éirinn faoi láthair. We are going to discuss music in Ireland today. Le go ndéanfaimid an cheist sin a phlé, ba mhaith liom fáilte a ghabháil roimh Dr. Orla Mc Donagh, head of the conservatory of music and drama, Dublin Institute of Technology, and Mr. Kevin Hanafin, head of orchestral studies. Ó Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann tá Labhras Ó Murchú, ardstiúrthóir, agus an tUasal Attracta Brady anseo linn inniu freisin. Ó Music Generation tá Ms Rosaleen Molloy, national director, and Mr. Leo Blennerhassett, chairman, linn. Ó Sing Out With Strings, tá Mr. Gerard Keenan agus Cathríona Murphy inár láthair. Go raibh míle buíochas leo as teacht isteach inniu.

Before I ask the witnesses to address the meeting, I must draw to their attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given, and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise witnesses that the statements they make and any other documents submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Tá bhur gcuid cur i láthair scaipthe againn ar na baill cheana féin agus cuirim in iúl go bhfuil deich nóiméad ag gach duine chun a gcur i láthair a dhéanamh. The presentations of the witnesses have been received by the members and I would ask the witnesses to keep their presentations to ten minutes, if possible. Chun tús a chur lenár gcomhrá, tugaim cuireadh anois don conservatory of music and drama, Dublin Institute of Technology, a chuid cur i láthair a dhéanamh, le bhur dtoil.

Dr. Orla McDonagh:

Dia Dhaoibh go léir. My name is Orla McDonagh and my background in music is that I trained as a concert pianist in the Julliard School in New York and Indiana University in Bloomington. I spent 18 years performing and lecturing in the United States before returning to Ireland where I am now head of the DIT conservatory of music and drama. Since 2011, I have been involved in music evaluation in the EU with the association of European conservatories and the European quality assurance agency, MusiQuE. As a result of this experience, I have a huge interest in music education, which is where I will begin my talk today. I will then speak about music education legislation, orchestral provision, funding and tax legislation and leave the committee with some recommendations for its consideration.

Everyone of us in life is exposed to music, whether it is rock, pop, classical, traditional, jazz or any other genre. No matter what socio-economic group we come from, an education in music is the one aspect of education, allied to literacy, that can add value to the whole of our lives. Research in recent decades has shown the vital connection between music and the brain. Everybody is entitled to a music education. In 1998, at its world conference on cultural policy in Stockholm, UNESCO adopted an action plan, the focal point of which is the right of all persons to education, art and culture. For the first time, the development of a cultural identity was given the status of a human right.

Article 31 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child agrees to respect and promote the right of the child to participate fully in cultural and artistic life and to encourage the provision of appropriate and equal opportunities for creative and artistic activity. I reference this because in Ireland, most children are not literate in music when they leave primary school. This has a knock-on effect in post-primary schools where the standard of music education must begin with the assumption that students have no background in music and all progress is hampered by this reality. Furthermore, Irish university music departments and performing arts conservatories have recognised for some time that a large number of incoming music students possess a remedial standard of fundamental music education as they begin their third level studies. It is critical that all primary school children in Ireland are exposed to the diversity of musical traditions in our country and that they finish primary school with a basic standard of literacy in music. There are some schools where this is done well, where students are lucky enough to benefit from the expertise of teachers who are particularly interested in music, but as a general rule, this is not the experience for the majority of pupils.

This was not always the case in Ireland but it has been so for some time. The 1985 Deaf Ears? report described the situation in these terms: “the overall situation is little short of appalling ... the majority of Irish primary school children leave school musically illiterate, with little vocal or aural training and with a repertoire of songs that is usually learned by rote”. Intervention at primary school level, either by supporting our primary teachers to reach this goal or by employing specialist music teachers with pedagogy training in the schools, is the most important move that we can make to correct this educational failure in our country.

To make up for this, parents are paying for private music lessons and in some cases travelling long distances every week to ensure their children receive a quality music education. If a family does not have the socio-economic means to pay for lessons and to buy an instrument or lives in an area of the country without access to music education, it often means that a quality music education is simply not available to that child.

Another serious issue that needs to be addressed is that a large portion of music education is delivered in Ireland without regulation of any kind. It is important to say that there is a long history of private music teaching throughout the country and there are many dedicated and excellent teachers who do phenomenal work in this area. There is, however, no quality assurance or regulation of the profession. This means that parents often have little idea whether the education for which they are paying and on which their child is spending hours practising is of an appropriate standard. Unlike the teachers in primary or post-primary education, a private music teacher in Ireland is not required to have any qualification. Apart from the challenges this presents to Ireland in terms of music education for all children, we also run the risk of missing the opportunity to support our most gifted young people, who could have a future as professional musicians, by identifying them early and providing pathways for them towards the type of specialist education needed to reach their highest goals.

A quality music education provides many benefits beyond simply the love of music alone. Recent research has proved that movement and rhythm enrich language and motor development and that physically playing music activates both hemispheres of the brain, which is thought to make the brain more conducive to learning. Music instruction demonstrates improved spatial-temporal skills in children over time. These skills are especially important in solving multi-step problems such as those encountered in architecture, engineering, maths, art, gaming and particularly in working with computers.

Research from the University of Kansas in 2007 revealed that students in US primary schools with superior music education programmes scored approximately 22% higher in English and 20% higher in maths on standardised tests compared to schools with low-quality music programmes, regardless of socioeconomic differences between schools. In a study by Columbia University, it was revealed that students who participate in the arts are often more co-operative with teachers and peers, have more self-confidence and are better able to express themselves.

Where do we stand? The European music union's 2010 report on music schools in Europe provides statistics on music education provision throughout Europe. The report titles its entry on Ireland as, Music education for the privileged, and goes on to say that "in Ireland, a county with an ancient folk music tradition, the State pays very little attention to something which many consider to be dear to the Irish heart ... there is no national legislation to regulate music education, nor are there generally applicable curricula." The 2010 report indicates that music education legislation exists in 17 out of 27 European countries. The European musician union states that to be able to fulfil a public educational mandate a binding syllabus or curriculum is necessary, which can be found in all of the countries which have this legislation. It also placed Ireland 25th out of the 27 countries in terms of the numbers of students receiving instrumental or vocal training, ranking just above Lichtenstein and the Faroe Islands. This is shocking for a country that prides itself on having a great musical culture.

Regarding orchestral provision, a 2016 Mediatique report places Ireland 27th out of 27 European countries with populations above 2 million in terms of symphony orchestra provision. The recently released RTÉ orchestral report cites World Bank data noting that the countries with the most extensive orchestral provisioning, namely, Switzerland, Finland and Norway, rank highly in terms of overall cultural participation within Europe. It is clear that Ireland is not doing well in these benchmarking exercises.

One of the challenges we have in Ireland is the lack of sustainable and diverse funding streams for our arts organisations. Too many organisations rely on year-to-year funding from the State, a situation which makes it difficult to plan far ahead and forces arts organisations to exist in a constant state of stress about their ability to survive. Irish tax law does not encourage private citizens to donate moneys to music organisations by virtue of the fact that there is no tax incentive for the individual to do so. Countries that do this, encourage an additional funding stream for interested citizens to become engaged in supporting their favourite arts organisations. At the same time this encourages the arts organisations to develop a strong relationship with their audience, further developing their impact and relevance to the communities they serve. If Ireland had different tax legislation in this regard it would provide much-needed support to the music organisations in this country.

In regard to the past, present and future, for the last 70 years, multiple reports have been commissioned by various Government and arts entities to evaluate the state of music in Ireland. Despite this, remarkably little has been actioned. The Place of the Arts in Irish Education report of 1979 stated that "the arts have been neglected in Irish education ... this judgement was based on experience, but also reflected the conclusions of relevant reports over the last thirty years." The 30 years in question dates back to 1949. The 1996 PIANO report states, "anything we propose must be overshadowed by the lack of action on the recommendations made in the Benson Report of 1979 and the Deaf Ears? report of 1985. It further states, "We would request that every person interested in the future of music in Ireland ... should re-read these reports and consider their comments". Indeed the main recommendation of the most recent report commissioned by RTÉ on the orchestras mirrors that of the PIANO report from over 20 years ago.

In Finland there are 29 state-funded orchestras. In Ireland, a country of similar population size, there are moves to reduce the two to one. The RTÉ report states that the closure of either or both orchestras would leave a significant gap in Irish cultural life and places Ireland out of step with almost every other European nation.

In concluding, I wish to make the following four recommendations: first, that immediate steps are taken to ensure that all children in Ireland are musically literate by the time they leave primary school; second, that Ireland moves to amend tax legislation to allow tax benefits for private citizens who donate to arts organisations; third, that Ireland moves to establish music education legislation which would ensure that all children receive a quality music education regardless of their socioeconomic background or the part of the country in which they grow up and that the music education industry is regulated in order to ensure standards and equity of provision for all who study music in the country; and fourth, that we do not wait to resolve some of the long-term issues facing music in Ireland.

Positive action, taken now, will improve the lives of the next generations of Irish citizens in eminently measurable ways, as evidenced in the available research and multiple examples provided in other countries.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. McDonagh for that stark analysis of where we are at the moment. I would like to invite Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann a chur i láthair a dhéanamh anois.

Mr. Labhrás Ó Murchú:

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, agus ár mbuíochas i dtosach don choiste as ucht an chuiridh a fuaireamar chun a bheith i láthair agus chun a bheith páirteach sa díospóireacht anseo inniu. Cuirfidh Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann béim ar an gceol traidisiúnta ina chur i láthair.

Nuair a bunaíodh Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann sa bhliain 1951 bhí an ceol traidisiúnta in ísle brí. Tá áthas orainn a rá go bhfuil feabhas an-mhór tagtha air sin idir an dá linn.

Ms Brady is a school teacher by profession but is also very involved in the teaching of Irish traditional music and is central to the tutorial work which we have done in Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann. As I said, we were founded in 1951 and then set about establishing an organisation structure and today we have 420 branches in 11 countries on four continents. Those branches are not just in areas where there is an Irish community or people of Irish extraction. We have branches, for instance, in Chile, Colombia and Argentina and one our strongest branches is in Tokyo. We have branches across North America and throughout Europe. It is a good sign when new branches come on board because we see the branches as being an integral part of passing on the tradition from one generation to the next, but also as providing outlets and opportunities for performance. In recent months, we have had four new branches, one in Switzerland, one in Portland, one in Brazil and one in San Diego. It is a good sign when the growth is still there and it is indicative of the status of Irish traditional music worldwide.

One of the surprising branches is Moscow. An interesting aside about this branch is that the secretary, Yuri Andreichuk, is a fluent Irish speaker but with no Irish connections. It indicates the influence that Ireland and Ireland's culture has.

In addition, we have back-up support. We have the Irish cultural institute, Cultúrlann na hÉireann, in Monkstown and have seven regional resource centres and nine outreach centres. They are able to provide the services that are necessary and as Ms Brady will outline to the committee, one of our main aims is education. That is very important so we have a very strong education structure.

We have 44 fleánna cheoil, with which members will be familiar, but the all-Ireland fleá is now a very big event and it goes from town to town each year. As a further aside, one of the nice things about that is that it shows that all music, including traditional music, can bring people of diverse views together. We saw that very in 2013 when for the first time Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann crossed the Border and was held in Derry. Many people were cautious at that time but we had a record attendance that year of 430,000 people. The interesting thing about it was that all the traditions came together, republican and loyalist and nationalist and unionist. I had the experience of going to the Waterside in Derry and meeting with the loyalist bands and making a presentation to them. Subsequently, the Orange Order invited me back to the North to meet with it. Music is probably more than just an expression in itself. It can also play a very big part in bringing people together.

There is also the economic side of music. The Irish Music Rights Organisation, IMRO, presented a report to the committee some years ago. At the time, it was clear that music plays a significant economic role in Irish Life. Fleá Cheoil na hÉireann, for instance, generates €40 million each year for the region in which it is held. Tá an Ghaeilge, dar ndóigh, lárnach d'obair Chomhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann. The Irish language has always been central to our work. We do it in a way that is based on bilingualism and making it accessible to all of the people. Yesterday morning, we met a government-led group from Croatia led by the Croatian minister with responsibility for the diaspora. It became clear that Ireland and Croatia have much to offer each other and we decided to work with Croatia in the other countries in which we operate. We were also a partner with Europeana Sounds, the music archive, which has 20 partners in Europe. As a result of the Fleá Cheoil na hÉireann in Derry in 2013, we received the European Citizen of the Year award.

Traditional music is expressed in different ways by different people but many groups have played their part over the years. Conradh na Gaeilge has done a major job since its inception. Other organisations that played a role include Gael Linn, the GAA, na Píobairí Uilinn, the Willie Clancy School, Cairde na Cruite, and none more so than RTÉ. My good friend from "Céilí House", Mr. Kieran Hanrahan, is in the Gallery. RTÉ's input was particularly important.

We do not only think of helping ourselves. We organise a programme called Trad for Trócaire to raise funds for people in the Third World who are less fortunate than ourselves.

In addition to solo music and céilí bands, Irish music is also expressed through the Comhaltas National Folk Orchestra of Ireland, which has played on several occasions. We will play at Fleá Cheoil na hÉireann this year and in the hallowed grounds of Stormont next October, which is an indication of the cultural bridge that can be created between North and South.

We have a comprehensive youth programme. The youth section of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is leading everything we do. We have great young leaders. People may have associated traditional music with the past and an older generation. Now they can see that young people have taken ownership of traditional music and are expanding and enhancing it in many ways.

The reason I am presenting this before the committee in this way today is that we see traditional music as a community expression. It is vital, as such, to be active among the community and this is done through the branch structure and the fleánna ceoil and na féilte.

We are all proud of Ireland's international standing in all music forms, particularly Irish traditional music from our point of view. No matter where one goes in the world, one finds an interest in Irish music. Fáilte Ireland has shown that 27% of the people who attend Fleá Cheoil na hÉireann are from outside the State. If 400,000 people attend, more than 100,000 of them will have come from abroad. I understand Fleá Cheoil na hÉireann and the St. Patrick's week festival are classed as the two major events in the year.

How does this happen? It happens through volunteerism. That is most important of all. It take 1,500 volunteers to run Fleá Cheoil na hÉireann. We have 40,000 volunteers involved with us. We provide services to 3 million people every year, whether in Kilgarvan or wherever. It is no harm to make the point that Deputy Healy-Rae's father was chairman of the Comhaltas county board for no less than five years. We are aware that Fleá Cheoil na hÉireann belongs to everybody. While we are representing it as an organisation, anybody could come in here today and represent it in the same way.

With the permission of the committee, I would like Ms. Brady to speak about education. I was reading over the minutes from the foundation of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí na hÉireann in 1951. One of the first items noted was that education would be one of the aims of the new organisation. There is no better person to convey that than Ms. Brady.

Ms Attracta Brady:

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh as an seans teacht chun labhairt libh inniu ar son an Chomhaltais agus go deimhin ar son an chultúir féin.

Caithfidh mé a rá i mo thuairim agus i dtuairim a lán daoine anseo, go bhfuil an ceol traidisiúnta in Éirinn níos láidre anois ná mar a bhí sé riamh agus go deimhin le blianta anuas.

As regards our education tá sé neamhfhoirmiúil, ní bhaineann sé mórán leis na scoileanna. Almost all of our education programmes take place take place outside the school setting. It is true, as a previous speaker noted, that many parents have to travel. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí na hÉireann offers approximately 1,200 branch classes per week in Ireland. Our local branches organise teachers to teach children, young people and adults on a community basis. We are, therefore, a non-ageist organisation. Everyone is welcome to come to our music classes and learn how to play an instrument or sing a song. People can also learn how to dance, whether sean-nós, céilí dancing, set dancing or old style solo dancing. They can also learn an teanga Ghaeilge freisin. They learn repertoires, core repertoires of the songs, dances and tunes in an informal setting. They can use the tunes afterwards to play music with people of all ages. We are very proud that the organisation has people of every age involved and learning and performing music.

When we teach music we know that not everybody will end up a musician, singer or dancer. We are proud that when we teach, we are also teaching the listener because a performance is not possible without listeners. One needs the performer and the listener and we have many listeners in our music classes.

In terms of current music, last week, during one of the biggest and longest music tours ever in this country, Beoga performed with Ed Sheeran. All members of the group are Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann-trained musicians. They came through our ranks as junior children being brought by their parents to the music classes. They came through the Scrúdú Ceolta Tíre, SCT, our graded examination system which features 12 examinations. Children, who do not necessarily succeed in competitions, can achieve excellence in a particular grade. It goes up to grade eight before moving to the advanced performer certificate, which is a public performance qualification with underlying theory.

We have Teastas i dTeagasc Ceolta Tíre, TTCT, through which our teachers qualify. We have more than 800 qualified traditional music teachers with the TTCT diploma. The course is run by Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann every year and is in great demand among teachers who want to teach in their communities through local Comhaltas branches and outside the branches, for example, in schools, marching bands, céilí bands and grúpaí ceoil. During the summer, we provide many courses, for example, Scoil Éigse at Fleá Cheoil na hÉireann in Ennis last year. The course had 902 participants and 80 volunteer music teachers imparting their knowledge and experience for the week. At night time, the majority of the 900 students met their tutors and everybody played together in an informal setting. When we talk about education, we are not just talking about the classroom but also sessions, the fleánna ceoil and imparting knowledge, both for young and older people.

We offer many master classes, including in Drumshanbo and Ballaghdereen. Volunteer local branches also run a number of weekend workshops.

With regard to educational resources, the most basic resource we provide is the Trad is Fab pack, which was sent to every primary school in the country in the past few years. This was designed primarily for teachers who do not have much experience of traditional music, with the idea that teachers like to receive one package which tells them what needs to be done. The pack contains teacher notes, classroom notes, a DVD, student worksheets and background information.

That is being used bilingually in a great number of schools around the country.

When discussing the fleánna cheoil, these events have two elements. They have the informal sessions and céilithe and there are the formal competition areas. We view the competitions as necessary in the sense that they train children to achieve excellence and they can use the competitions as a means to an end. We have those in a very controlled atmosphere and to that end, we have adjudicator training courses. We train our call clerks and stewards in those courses to make sure we have proper behaviour and we have incorporated codes of practice in all those as well. All the fleánna are held at local - as in county - provincial, and all-Ireland levels.

Another part of our education programme is that we have the concert tours. People who have achieved a high standard of music and performance in our SCTs and in our fleánna cheoil are invited then to participate in our concert tours which ar held both in Ireland and indeed all around the world. I have been fortunate to have been on some of these. They are hugely important to the character building of these young performers. They are very important in the sense that they can learn stage presence, how to deal with international audiences and they can build friendships and a network. When we talk about community from an educational point of view, we can teach in the community. When these children and young people are educated in music, they progress to the community of our global music network with more than 400 branches all over the world.

One of the other elements of our activities is Treoir, which is published four times a year and is hugely important from an educational point of view. I will hand back to Mr. Ó Murchú now

Mr. Labhrás Ó Murchú:

Just to conclude I think we have overstayed our time but that just comes from the passion which goes with our work. We certainly appreciate that the others were present have had patience with us. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Míle buíochas, bhí sé sin an-shuimiúil ar fad. I invite Music Generation to make its presentation please.

Mr. Leo Blennerhassett:

We are delighted to have the opportunity to present to the committee today about music in Ireland and Music Generation in particular. Ms Rosaleen Molloy, as national director, will take us through the meat of the presentation after a few quick introductory remarks from me. Music Generation is one of the most innovative initiatives in music education for children and young people since the foundation of the State. Our philanthropic donors, namely, U2 and The Ireland Funds, our partners in government, the Department of Education and Skills and the local education partnerships are very proud of what we have achieved. Our model is very much based on collaboration, public and private but also national and local. For me, as chairman of the board and for the board in general, as we visit periodically the places where Music Generation has touched, we are overcome in many ways by the impact it has on children and young people and on the microcosm of society that it reaches. The conversations we have had with these young people and with those who teach them and the musicians can in some respects be quite emotional in terms of the impact it has had. It echoes some of the things that have been said by the previous speakers regarding the impact of music on young people. I will hand over to Ms Molloy to take us through the presentation.

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

When considering issues relating to music in Ireland today, there are many factors to be taken into account within the context of how a country’s music ecology works. Some of these factors include support for emerging and established professional musicians practicing in all genres of music, audience engagement, community participation and particular challenges facing the recorded music industry. However, a central issue for music in Ireland today is the fundamental right of every Irish child and young person to have access to music tuition as an essential part of their cultural entitlement. As a pioneering model of philanthropic public partnership, Music Generation is achieving this for generations to come. Music Generation is Ireland’s national music education programme that transforms the lives of children and young people through access to high quality performance music education in their locality. Through partnership, we create rich and diverse ways for children and young people to engage in vocal and instrumental tuition delivered by skilled professional musicians, across all musical genres and styles.

Initiated by our parent company Music Network, Music Generation is co-funded by U2, The Ireland Funds, the Department of Education and Skills and local music education partnerships. Our vision is best expressed by U2’s Bono:

What we want to do is really simple. We just want to make sure that everyone, whatever their background, gets access to music tuition. That’s the idea.

Music Generation believes in the musical potential of every child and young person and that it is every child and young person’s right to have the choice of access and the chance to participate as a musical citizen and that music just doesn’t change lives, it truly transforms them.

While established in 2010, Music Generation’s genesis stems from many years of campaigning by Music Network to address gaps within Ireland’s music education landscape. Prior to Music Generation’s formation in 2010, Ireland was very much out of sync with other comparable European countries in the provision of performance music education. No provision was made for large areas of the country for, particularly outside of major urban centres, where barriers to access included financial, social, geographical and cultural factors, as well as special needs requirements. For decades previously, since the amendment of the Vocational Education Act 1930 by the then Minister for Education, Richard Mulcahy, various attempts had been made to initiate a publicly-supported system for performance music education. In a small country, however, with competing aims and resources, these initiatives were difficult to sustain.

In 2003 Music Network published a feasibility study proposing the establishment of a national system of local music education services, which would involve the creation of a new partnership model that would be publicly supported, socially inclusive, community focused and of high quality, to complement the teaching and learning of music in the classroom. With support from the then Department of Education and Science, the model was piloted in Dublin and Donegal and subsequently independently evaluated in 2009 as a workable and replicable framework for the development of music education services on a wider scale throughout Ireland. However, the economic circumstances of the time created challenges for further development and expansion of the model.

It was then that U2 and The Ireland Funds announced a €7 million donation to music education in Ireland, the largest ever single philanthropic donation to music education in Ireland in the history of the State. This allowed the roll-out of the model in the feasibility study over the next five years. In the words of U2’s The Edge:

We had been looking for some time for a way to get involved in an initiative in music education in Ireland. After talking to various people in Ireland about what to do, we came to the conclusion that the Music Network scheme is really well thought out and that we, in partnership with The Ireland Funds, should just get behind it.

Partnership is central to Music Generation's approach and is informed by the principles of philanthropy, which seek to achieve sustainability and long-term lasting outcomes from the original investment by U2 and The Ireland Funds. This is being achieved through a highly effective model of public philanthropic partnership, where philanthropy provides the seed capital to establish Music Generation programmes locally and the Government, through the Department of Education and Skills, sustainably co-funds each area on a matched 50:50 basis, together with local music education partnerships, once the philanthropic donations cease.

Local music education partnerships that are led by either education and training boards or a local authority, generate locally-sourced matched income from a range of sources. Through its partnership with Government, Music Generation is delivering on the commitments outlined in the Arts in Education Charter, endorsed by Creative Ireland, to ensure that high quality "arts-in education practice is sustained where it arises ... so that what has been to date occasional and random becomes instead widespread and embedded as a norm." Co-funding of the programme at local level ensures that ongoing support and buy-in from the partners that make music education happen on the ground, for and within the communities of which they are a part.

Music Generation's devolved model of delivery by local music education partnerships ensures that programming is responsive to local need and context. There is no "one-size-fits-all" model. This specificity and diversity engenders local ownership and goodwill.

Further national investment has also been generated from the Arts Council to enable the delivery of developmental and collaborative projects. This funding creates valuable opportunities for children, young people and professional musicians from diverse communities, counties and regions to share skills and collective music-making experiences.

I will provide an overview of our first phase, which ran from 2010 to 2015. U2 and the Ireland Funds' initial €7 million donation, which included a donation from Bank of America, enabled the establishment of Music Generation in 2010. This first phase saw the programme established in 11 music education partnerships covering 12 areas of the country: Carlow, Clare, Cork city, Laois, Limerick city, Louth, Mayo, Offaly-Westmeath as a joint partnership, Sligo, south Dublin and Wicklow. The Department of Education and Skills commenced co-funding of all 11 partnerships in 2016, and currently invests €2.485 million annually in the programme. Across these areas, there are 48,500 opportunities annually for children and young people to engage in music tuition who may not otherwise have had the choice of access or the chance to participate and 350 employment opportunities created - mainly for musicians.

I will turn to phase two of the programme, which we are currently involved in rolling out. In November 2015, U2 and the Ireland Funds announced further philanthropic donations to enable Music Generation to extend its reach into new areas of Ireland. This renewed investment, a combined total of €6.3 million that included donations from the Stavros Niarchos Foundation and Bank of America, was a direct result of the extraordinary success of Music Generation's first phase. Moreover, phase two has been assured of long-term sustainability through a commitment by Government in January 2016 to co-fund the new areas into the future, together with local music education partnerships. An open national call for applications from new music education partnerships to participate in phase two was launched in January 2017 and the nine new areas selected were announced in September 2017. They are Cavan-Monaghan as one partnership area, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Galway city, Galway county, Kilkenny, Leitrim, Roscommon, Waterford and Wexford. These new partnerships are being established incrementally, thus maintaining the measured approach to growth that ensured the successful set-up and sustainability of Music Generation's first phase. Music development officers have been appointed in five areas to lead programme implementation with the remaining four partnerships due to commence set-up at the end of 2018.

In December 2017, the Taoiseach launched Creative Youth - A Plan to Enable the Creative Potential of Every Child and Young Person. The plan sets out measures to deliver on the first key pillar of the Creative Ireland programme entitled, "Children and Youth", and includes a commitment by Government, subject to the budgetary process, to support the nationwide roll-out of Music Generation by 2022. This means that thousands more children and young people across every city and county will have the opportunity to access and engage in truly transformational musical experiences with inspiring musician educators. Music Generation is currently working closely with the Department of Education and Skills to develop the arrangements for this roll out, the achievement of which will reflect an all-of-Government commitment to "enhancing the wellbeing of all our young people through a transformative and creative approach to education and learning."

While this has been happening, Music Generation is achieving global impact and influence. Our Young Ambassadors programme provides young musicians with opportunities to perform their music and represent their county, country and community on a national and international stage. Some recent performances by these skilled young musicians include performances for the Canadian Prime Minister, Mr. Justin Trudeau; President Michael D. Higgins; and His Serene Highness Prince Albert II, Sovereign Prince of Monaco. Another highlight was the involvement of a choir of seven young musicians from three counties in a landmark performance by U2's The Edge in Rome's Sistine Chapel. Additionally, as a foresight initiative in 2013, Music Generation commissioned an independent research project led by St Patrick's College, Drumcondra, DCU, which has been presented and circulated nationally and internationally, including at the biannual conference of the International Society for Music Education.

I will conclude with our focus for the future. Now and into the future, children and young people will remain at Music Generation's core informing our values and guiding the articulation of our strategic priorities. To achieve our ambitions for children, young people and the musicians with whom we work, Music Generation has set out three overarching priorities for 2016 to 2021 in its strategic plan - growth, sustainability and quality. Our target is to have successfully established sustainably funded music education partnerships providing high-quality performance music education in all remaining areas of Ireland by 2022. Our recommendation to the committee is that ongoing sustained Government investment ensures that children and young people have access to music tuition as part of their fundamental culture entitlement; employment opportunities are created and sustained for musicians; and the quality of life within vibrant musical communities can be developed. We believe fundamentally that this will be achieved by continuing to work in close collaboration with our local and national partners, including philanthropic donors, Departments and agencies, education and training boards and local authorities, the collective dedicated commitment of which has enabled the realisation of Music Generation's remarkable story so far.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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It is clear that Music Generation is a busy organisation. I thank Ms Molloy for her presentation, which is appreciated. I invite Mr. Keenan to make his presentation.

Mr. Gerard Keenan:

I thank members for this opportunity to address them. Sing Out With Strings is the education project of the Irish Chamber Orchestra. In recent times, I have read and heard a great deal about how there are only two orchestras in the country but I can assure members that there are more than two. We are happy to be funded by An Comhairle Ealaíon, which is the Arts Council. We are based in the University of Limerick and resident at the Irish World Academy of Music and Dance where we are lucky to have our own studio. We perform many concerts throughout Ireland. One of our key assets is our ability to tour all the regions, which we do twice a year, playing in at least eight to 12 regions. These would be much smaller places. For instance, last week we were in Kilkee on the Clare coast, Newport in County Mayo where we drew a fantastic crowd and then we finished in Monaghan. That is a bit of history showing where the Irish Chamber Orchestra comes from because it is at the core of this entire project. It is a top-class chamber orchestra. We work with some of the finest musicians in Europe and we tour an awful lot. We are one of Ireland's great cultural exports, and we are grateful for the support of Culture Ireland and so on. When members hear the jingle "Love your orchestras", they should remember that there are more than two.

We started Sing Out with Strings ten years ago and we are about to have our tenth anniversary concert next Wednesday. It has been a remarkable journey. We started off in two regeneration areas - Southhill and St. Mary's Park near the Island Field in Limerick. Island Field has the lowest transition rate to third-level education in the country at 2%. They are the sort of conditions we faced. It is tough enough. We have immersed ourselves in it and I am happy that there has been a great deal of progress albeit at primary school level, which has been important and which has had a huge impact on both communities.

The committee has a copy of our presentation so I will not read it verbatim. I would like to highlight a couple of issues. We established the programme ten years ago. It is based on the El Sistema model. We are members of Sistema Europe and have a trip to London coming up in August. We will bring a few students and there is great excitement about that. Sing Out With Strings involves 110 core teaching hours per week. Every year, approximately 300 students get lessons three times per week. Sing Out With Strings started because we wanted to start with something. Just launching people into instruments was difficult in the situation we were in and, therefore we spent significant time developing the children's own improvisation skills.

For instance, the children will write song lyrics and we get someone in the orchestra to provide the musical arrangements. Every year, the Irish Chamber Orchestra plays all of the arrangements at an event that is held in the university's concert hall. The children are thrilled with the event and we provide transport for all of their parents so they can all attend.

One of the greatest developments in the past ten years has been community involvement in this scheme. We have always deemed community involvement to be very important. It is all very fine to say, "We are the Irish Chamber Orchestra" and it is all bells and whistles when we come in. We have immersed ourselves in the project. We go into the community with the orchestra and have gradually introduced people to the university where we live and to the concert hall. Everyone involved has experienced a learning curve and the community has got a great deal from the project.

Let me outline another success. The children have all developed musically and two years ago they began studying for their Royal Irish Academy of Music examinations. I can confirm that no child has got less than a merit awarded in their music examinations. That may not sound like a lot but it is a great achievement for the children when one considers where they started from. They have a wonderful sense of achievement. They now regularly appear in Limerick, at the Dell company, at any openings and they have performed for the Lord Mayor. There is an endless list of events. All of this is possible due to private funding that we have raised and with great difficulty. We have some wonderful local donors that regularly support us but fundraising is a continuous battle. Sustainability is also a key issue. All of the organisations here sing from the same hymn sheet because we believe sustainability and growth are key to our success. We spend an awful of time fundraising and we are grateful to our donors. I want to let the members know that we require €200,000 every year in order to provide 300 children with music tuition. I can assure the committee that it is a very good investment, particularly when one considers how well the children have developed and what the scheme will save the State down the line.

As the scheme has existed for ten years, children have now moved through the entire cycle from junior infants class and right through to sixth class. We have been very lucky that a couple of patrons have given us money for legacy scholarships. That clearly shows that some of the children have shown a lot of talent. For example, we have one talented cellist and we have arranged a scholarship in order for that person to study with the principal cellist in the Irish Chamber Orchestra. That is a great chance for the young cellist.

It is important to evaluate one's work and we did. In 2016, Dr. Áine Mangaoang conducted the most recent evaluation and I will highlight a couple of points she made. Participating school staff who were interviewed believe the children benefit from participating in Sing Out With Strings classes, drawing from a broad range of experience over the programme’s eight years. This affirmed a multitude of positive outcomes such as individual cognitive and physical progress - such as motor skills or musical literacy - behavioural development, discipline, experiencing respect and tolerance, pride and self-confidence, patience, team work, learning the value of active public and civic engagement and a sense of calm.

The impact of all of that on schools is incalculable but it is amazing. To be honest, many teachers initially wondered who we were but now they realise that the programme has made their lives easier. Recently I heard a man called McCourt make the interesting observation that the creative mind will be needed a lot more in employment. He also said that not alone do we need to think outside the box, we need to create the box. All of these skills that we all teach together in music really helps that goal.

I will finish with a couple of quotes. One of the inspirational people we have met along the way is a woman called Jacinta MacNamara in St. Mary's school. The school did not have enough money and a choice had to be made to provide sports or music tuition. The school picked music. She said:"Sing Out With Strings has touched homes and families and is the greatest gift our school has been given.” Those sentiments keep us going and will continue to do so.

Another class teacher from Le Chéile national school, which is based near Southill, Limerick, stated "It is wonderful to see the quietest child open up during their music time and likewise the most obstinate child forget all their issues and behaviour problems to join in and engage in their music time.” Most of all it is what the children have said that is worth a listen. A girl called Hannah said: "I love Sing Out With Strings because it makes my soul feel like it’s free.” A girl call Holly said: "Sing Out With Strings means everything to me because I am not afraid no more.” One of the parents said:

My oldest daughter is now in Secondary School and is continuing to play due to the roaring success and [e]ffect the programme had on her. She plays the violin and I'm so grateful to Sing Out With Strings for awarding her the scholarship to the Limerick School of Music so that she can continue to thrive and help her on her road ahead with music. I feel so proud and this is all thanks to the programme. I will be forever grateful for the opportunity it has given her.

I have given a brief overview. I would now like to take the opportunity to thank all of the donors for their efforts. They made a separate contribution from the Government and official funding, which gave very little. I hope that we all get a proper music policy that is applied to primary schools and right through second level education. We have started a pilot scheme in a secondary school and we are working on an application to fund that. As we all know, music education definitively affects behaviour.

My group just happens to work in classical music and I come from a background where the only two kinds of music is good and bad music. In our small classical world, one never sees classical music broadcast on television. It is a shame that there is so little exposure to classical music. We may be a minority sport in lots of ways but we are as entitled to it as people are entitled to their rugby, football and everything else.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh, a cháirde.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Míle buíochas. Bhí sé sin an-suimiúil ar fad. The presentation was very clear.

Sometimes in Ireland we focus on all of the negative and difficult stuff and the stuff that does not work. Often in Ireland we have some serious successes that slip by very quietly and under the radar. It is clear from this discussion that there are some serious successes in Irish society. On behalf of the committee, I thank the delegations for all of the work that they have done. I guarantee that their work is very much appreciated. The benefits of the activities that they are involved in, which Mr. Keenan has referred to in his statement, are unparalleled in terms of the children's development and improvement in cognitive and social skills, as well as their appreciation of music.

On the flipside, there is bleak analysis on the state of play in Ireland today. This committee want to analyse the situation to better comprehend it and formulate policies to rectify the situation. I believe that every child in this country has a fundamental right to experience music tuition and express him or herself in that fashion.

Have the delegations engaged with the Department to develop a music tuition policy? There are a couple of key elements involve but policy is the first element. Has a policy been developed? Earlier Ms Molloy mentioned that the Taoiseach has recently launched a new Government policy. What is the up-to-date position in terms of the policy for all children to receive music tuition? Perhaps Ms Molloy will respond first.

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

To which Department was the Chairman referring? Did he mean the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht or the Department of Education and Skills?

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Both Departments.

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

The birth of the Creative Ireland programme resulted in the publication of the Creative Youth programme in 2017, which places children, young people and creativity at the heart of society. Many actions have been identified that will create better access to creativity, in its entirety, for children and young people.

A huge amount of aspiration and ambition was outlined in the Creative Ireland programme, which I think the sector very much welcomes. Apart from that there is a new movement for culture in Ireland. The fundamental gap in music education in Ireland is not new and has existed for decades, namely, the absence of some kind of a music policy that is underpinned by a strong policy on music education. We now know that arts education and arts in education provision in Ireland falls across mainstream provision and non-mainstream provision. All of the organisations here today very much operate outside of the formal education sector. We see musical and cultural citizenship as very important when it comes to adding value to how children and young people experience music and other art forms within mainstream education.

As for a national policy, there have been moves towards that, which come under the umbrella of what the Creative Ireland and Creative Youth programmes are trying to achieve.

When looking at music in Ireland today, the lack of coherent policy is very much felt in children and young people's participation as musical citizens.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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That is important to know. All the witnesses engage with thousands of children, but at what level? Is it the case that what is happening inside and outside of schools is that we are reaching 20% or 30% of children with tuition? Will Dr. McDonagh say if there has been any analysis on this?

Dr. Orla McDonagh:

The word ecosystem is very important here. There is a question of whether the Deputy's question relates to Department of Education and Skills or Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. The solution to this long-standing challenge will be found at the intersection of the two Departments.

We are all reaching children at different pockets. There are pockets of musical excellence throughout this country. There are organisations, such as St. Agnes's Musical Society, Ballymun Music Programme, and Sing Out With Strings, which have been operating a long time. The Ballymun Music Programme has been operating for 21 years, delivering instrumental tuition to 13 schools in Ballymun. Music Generation is spreading to more areas of the country. The disconnect that I see, however, and I am sure others will agree, is that it does not sync with our national education system. It is still the case that we cannot guarantee that every Irish child will be musically literate or will have access. That is a huge issue for our citizens. It cannot only be available to those who are lucky enough to live close to it or can afford the instruments. Many primary schools receive Government grants for sports equipment, for instance, but they do not necessarily receive Government grants for musical instruments to the same level. Dublin City Council has been great in the case of Ballymun and has given us considerable money to help on this, but it is not throughout the country. Overall, that is our challenge.

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

On participation, before Music Generation was initiated, our most reliable statistical detail came from the Music Network Feasibility Study which indicated that less than 1% of children and young people in Ireland had access to performance music education. This was compared with European countries. Music Generation has secured funding from philanthropic donors, Government and local partnerships, and recent statistics show that the current level of funding has increased participation to 13.8% in the 12 areas of Ireland where the programme is established. The investment works.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Is it that the investment has increased by 13%?

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

No, the participation rates have increased from less than 1% to 13.8% in a seven-year period of development. That is in 12 areas of the country.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Very good.

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

The question then arises about the remaining percentage of people who are not involved.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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That is a very impressive increase but obviously it is only for a small section.

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

That is only a snapshot of 12 areas. It can be seen where the need is.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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What is the socio-economic penetration like? Do we know if that 13% is in a particular income bracket or geography? What information is available on this?

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

Music Generation's view is that the barriers to music access are not merely socio-economic. They can be geographical, financial, or cultural, it can be the value or lack of value placed on it, or it can be access to expertise.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Does the roll-out of Music Generation look to tackle geographic and socio-economic barriers, for instance?

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

Yes, it is to tackle all those barriers. If a child wants to learn to play the drums but the only teacher available teaches piano, that is as much of a barrier to access as socio-economic access. When we speak of access or lack thereof, we must consider many strands.

Mr. Labhrás Ó Murchú:

Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann comes at it from a different perspective after 60 years. When there was a vacuum, we decided to fill it. We created our own education structure with 1,200 classes each week. At our cultural institute in Dublin we have 120 classes weekly. To give an idea of scale, each year at the Fleadh Cheoil, 25,000 young people compete. The numbers are exceptionally big. We also found that it was like a nursery. One needed this goal, but once it is outside in the community there is also a social aspect for young people which they enjoy. The standards are a matter of young people pacing each other on the road to excellence. This has struck me on a few occasions.

Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann was selected to represent Ireland at five world expos in the past 20 years, twice in Japan, and once in Spain, China and Milan. We also do Ireland day for the President. When President Mary McAleese was in China, we provided the grouping for that and did the same for President Michael D. Higgins in Milan. I make this point because it gives an idea of the standards that are being achieved. Young people of a certain age will take it on themselves to expand and enhance. We have the National Folk Orchestra, but we also have four regional orchestras at the moment, and all that came from the ground, outside the school. Universities are also very much embracing music. The Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT, does an excellent job in this area, as does the University of Limerick, NUI Galway and UCC. That has emerged in the past 15 or 20 years. An organic growth is taking place.

Essentially, Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann feels that it filled a vacuum and that our approach to musicians is that of a nursery.

Dr. Orla McDonagh:

I agree about the sense of growth. It is like rain in the desert after many years. As the ecosystem professionalises itself further, it is not only about the diversity of access to different traditions but also that we ensure that we benchmark our standards internationally. There is the question of how one evaluates the different schools within Europe. When I go on a panel, I find that a school can have a particular idea about what it is doing. Sometimes it is right and sometimes it is wildly different from what we see elsewhere. It is important that we know that about ourselves as a profession. That will help to continue to encourage the great growth in which we are all involved.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I have one final question as my time is running out. Another tool available to us here is investment. Has an analysis been done on Government investment in music in Ireland and is there a comparative study of Government investment across Europe?

Dr. Orla McDonagh:

I used Finland as an example. Mr Keenan is right. The Irish Chamber Orchestra is fabulous but it is a chamber orchestra, not a symphony orchestra. When we compare symphony orchestras, it is very different. Finland had 29 symphony orchestras. It invests €77 million annually in its arts of which €70 million goes to music. The reason is because of the high cost of one-on-one music education in instrumental and vocal tuition.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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What is the comparative figure in Ireland?

Dr. Orla McDonagh:

To arrive at a comparative figure, we have to add the funding for the three conservatories in the country, which is probably around €9 or €10 million, plus the Music Generation investment and various grants given across the country. I do not have the total figure but it is nowhere near €70 million.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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That is not Government investment. That is philanthropic and so on.

Dr. Orla McDonagh:

Yes.

Mr. Gerard Keenan:

As this meeting relates to music in Ireland, I wish to raise a small concern on behalf of some of the practitioners. The Creative Ireland initiative is often thrown around, so to speak, these days. I am not quite sure what it is and everyone needs to find out. The Arts Council, with all its faults, has been the standard bearer and funder for many of us for years. Despite having had many a row with them over various bits of funding over the years, I believe it has fought quite honourably.

I was wheeled out to a meeting in Limerick last year where I made myself very unpopular because someone from Creative Ireland said that every child in the country will have access to a music education. I responded that that was fantastic but asked where was the budget. I was told there was not one. It is something that has immersed itself into the system but there are no definitions about the where or why. I note that a new head of Creative Ireland will begin work in June, I think, and I wish Ms Banotti the best. However, the Arts Council should not suffer because of this.

Money will come from one and go from the other. With the Arts Council, there is accountability when there is funding.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I welcome all the people who gave us such a wonderful presentation, especially Mr. Ó Murchú, whom I have known for many years and who was a great friend of my father. They did many great things together. I am proud that my father was, as Mr. Ó Murchú said, chairman of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann in Kerry for five years. I am proud that we had seven fleánna cheoil in Kilgarvan, with one being the Munster fleadh cheoil in 1977. It was a wonderful achievement for a small place like Kilgarvan to host a Munster fleadh cheoil and six other Kerry county fleánna cheoil.

Music is an integral part of our country and people. Music is there to be played by everyone. There was a great accordion player and musician in Castleisland who died in the past few months, Jackie Dan Jerry O'Connor. He used to say that music is there to be played by everyone. I am glad to see Mr. Kieran Hanrahan here. I admit to listening to him whenever I can on Saturday nights; it is one of the high points of the radio that I want to listen to every week. He follows on from Din Joe and "Take the Floor". I remember being a small fellow with my grandmother and if I opened my mouth when Eamon Kelly was giving his piece, she would split me with the brush.

I appreciate music and the role it plays. We can think about people with disabilities who can do little, especially blind people, who depend on music to brighten their lives a bit. It crosses all divides. As Mr. Ó Murchú noted in referring to the fleadh in the North a couple of years ago, it crosses all political divides and religious beliefs. All types of music are there to be appreciated by everyone.

There has been great improvement in the education of our youngsters in national and secondary schools. The opportunities they get are wonderful. I can mention a few young fellows like Bryan O'Leary, following in the footsteps of his grandfather, and Johnny O'Leary, also from Sliabh Luachra. They are carrying on the tradition. There is Conor Moriarty in Kilcummin, James Kelleher in Kilgarvan and so many other people. We had World Fiddle Day at Scartaglin last weekend. Such events bring so many people and ensure that a small place like Scartaglin can retain its identity as a really great place for music. There are several other places, including Brosna, which has the Con Curtin weekend, an even to which we look forward. We will have the Castlemaine fleadh cheoil that is coming up in a few weeks. My father and the late Bishop Casey opened that fleadh when it was held there on a previous occasion.

I was amazed by the presentations, especially that of Ms Brady. She did not look at one note when she was talking about 902 participants in a course, for example. She has it all in her head, which demonstrates how committed she is to what she is doing. Ms Molloy gave a wonderful presentation and we must appreciate and acknowledge the amount of money that Bono and his group are committing to the country. I did not hear Ms Molloy mention Kerry in the centres being provided with funding but I was glad to hear at the end of her contribution that the rest of the country would be included. I am hopeful and ask her to ensure that Kerry is included in any funding. We have wonderful children who deserve to get the same opportunity as people everywhere else.

Mr. Keenan gave us much information about what he is doing and I can see he is a very busy man. We appreciate what he is doing. As I said at the start, music is for everyone and it makes a difference. When we size up what we achieve in life, including the good parts, all we have at the end of the day is enough to eat, somewhere to lie down and music to listen to. Having that means we are kings in our own minds.

I am glad to be here to welcome the witnesses to the Oireachtas committee. Mr. Ó Murchú was around these buildings much longer than I have been. He knows his way around and he will not get lost here at all. I thank the witnesses for all their presentations. They are wonderful people and they should be applauded and supported. They should not be afraid to make a request of me for anything. I am here to help in any way I can.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentations, which touch on what this committee is really supposed to be about, namely, culture, heritage and the Gaeltacht. When I think of culture, I think of arts in the centre.

A few points have been raised. We seem to have to consistently convince the Government about the power of music. If the witnesses were not here - Mr. Ó Murchú from Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann and the people from Sing Out With Strings and Music Generation - along with many others that may not be present, I wonder where we would be with music education. It is beyond me. Where does the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht begin and the Department of Education and Skills end? I do not see any difference. This Department has an absolute remit when it comes to the education of the young. It must play a massive part but it tends to push it to the Department of Education and Skills, which, in turn, pushes it back. That Department has an enormous part to play as well.

Will Dr. McDonagh outline the core of the musical illiteracy within schools? Does it arise because there are not enough teachers of music or is it that we do not have any national legislation? It seems to come from today's meeting that without people outside the education and living curriculum structure, we would be in real trouble.

Will the witness speak a little about the tax incentives mentioned in the recommendations because that is an extremely interesting idea?

I am pleased to see a former colleague from the Seanad, Labhrás Ó Murchú. I was appointed to the Seanad in 2011 during his time there. He showed absolute strength as a Senator. It was wonderful for a new person, young in terms of my time in Leinster House and not necessarily young in chronological terms, although quite ageless at times. Labhrás Ó Murchú was a wonderful mentor and I used to watch the way he tackled ideas and arguments. He created Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, an outstanding organisation. What would he say to Dr. McDonagh about musical illiteracy because her point is correct? If he were to speak to officials in the Departments of Education and Skills and Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht about music, what would he say to them about what they should do that they are not doing?

I congratulate Ms Rosaleen Molloy, the national director of Music Generation, on all she has achieved in terms of the fundamental right to music in the two years since we met. We all get the concept. I have formed an impression that the Department is not leading. It is scoping out something else that it can get on the back of, or parallel to, this, but it is not leading. How would one get the Department to lead? What would one say to either of the Departments on how they should lead, as opposed to partner, which would be excellent? How much does the Department provide in funding to Music Generation?

The Irish Chamber Orchestra, Sing Out With Strings, is outstanding. I ask Mr. Gerard Keenan not to be afraid to tell me the meagre amount of money that is allocated to Sing Out With Strings? He mentioned sport and music and referred to Creative Ireland. Mr. Keenan's view on Creative Ireland is completely right. I asked a representative of Creative Ireland, who appeared before a committee, to tell me where it starts and the Arts Council ends? Who will be divvying out the money? What will happen? Who will be in charge of what? We are terrible in that we create another layer, call it something and then choke the four layers underneath it with the effect that the money gets divided and there is no centrality. What would he say to the Department? What lead would he give it? It is important I get answers to my questions because what I am hearing from the witnesses is that we might need legislation.

I cannot understand that in 2018 we give 25 extra points in the leaving certificate examination to those taking mathematics at higher level but have never thought about a similar allocation for arts subjects, that is, music or visual art, which might encourage students to take those subjects. We do not think it is worth it. One could say the same thing about geography or languages. We allocate additional marks for those who pass higher level mathematics and give those who fail at higher level the benefit of passing the exam. We are capitulating to the economy.

We no longer call the Department by its former name, the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, but by its new name, the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. Does culture mean tourism and the economy? We will not allow a Department of arts to stand independently. The witnesses are independent, leading independent organisations and have an independent belief in the power of music. If I was 15 or 16 years of age and I was in trouble, I would not be looking to algebra to help me out but to music. Tom Murphy, God rest him, used to always bring singing and music into all his plays and said that when people sing, it is then that one knows who they really are. I would say the same when one plays music. One knows who a child is when he or she plays an instrument, or who he or she could be, or the potential there. One can come at this in a thousand different ways. We all know its power but the power needs legislation that is grounded because it seems to me that without the witnesses, all we are doing is adding to this and not leading.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Who would like to start on those questions?

Dr. Orla McDonagh:

I thank Senator O'Donnell for those questions. The point she made about capitulating to the economy is pertinent and I will address it before I answer what she asked me to address. The interesting thing about neuroscience research in the past 30 years is that it is finally proving that music training from a very early age gives a person much more advantage in terms of how he or she learns other subjects. We know that for a fact. The question is no longer about why are we capitulating to the economy. The question should be whether we can afford not to give our economy the boost of having an educated population growing up with these extra skills, 22% in English and 20% in maths. One cannot argue with that. That is a significant boost for an economy, regardless of any of the other benefits of having a music education.

The other aspect we have not mentioned today, but which is pertinent to all of us, is the value of music to somebody in terms of his or her mental health over the course of his or her entire life, such as self-confidence and all the soft skills that go with that. When we talk about the value to the economy, it is important we do not forget those things too.

Senator O'Donnell asked me specifically to address the issue of music literacy. I talked about primary school students leaving without a sense of literacy. It is important that they are exposed to the diversity of traditions. There are certainly similar things in all our musical traditions when it comes to literacy, things like training the ear properly, learning how to sing and learning how to improvise, which is present in all our traditions. From the standpoint of classical music specifically, it is learning how to read music. In terms of our traditional music, third level students in DIT are arranging and transcribing music of all cultures and blending it with Irish music. This is where the youth are taking this, which is fantastic. In order to do that, they need to know how to read music. Literacy is actually a combination of those four things, particularly at primary school level. For example, recorder or violin classes, which can be done in group settings, give students a chance to learn an instrument in that environment without having to take private lessons. That would help literacy. The primary school curriculum gives three hours every week for all the arts. We are talking about a very short time in our national curriculum to address anything to do with music. It is quite vague. The dilemma for most primary school teachers is that they are, by their nature, generalist educators. From my own standpoint, the fastest way to lift all of this is to engage specialist music teachers with the primary school curriculum to ensure literacy. We would get there a great deal faster. From my standpoint, that is what will answer that question.

Legislation is the most important thing. It needs to be driven by both Departments so that we can interconnect perfectly. There is a means to do this in an extraordinary way where we can be creative and have all our traditions present but can still ensure that every child has a real education in music. If there is a way to design that kind of ecosystem, it will come out of a multi-department or perhaps a multi-organisational move.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I asked about the effect of a tax incentive.

Dr. Orla McDonagh:

I spent 18 years in the United States and before 15 April, which is tax day there, most of my friends look at what they owe and look at the organisations they would like to fund and in this way they can donate to any organisation they believe needs this additional help. They are able to count that against their personal tax. It means the state is not fully responsible and that arts organisations have a greater responsibility to engage with the public. That kind of impact and bedding down in communities is more realistic and helps with the economics.

Mr. Labhrás Ó Murchú:

I thank Senator O'Donnell for her very generous comments. It was a privilege to serve in Seanad Éireann and it was also an education. Sometimes it is probably misunderstood outside the Oireachtas that our public representatives are committed to the same things we are committed to. It is trying to harvest that commitment and link it back to the official world which is often the difficulty. Everyone today made the point about the necessity for a policy. Of course, without a policy one does not have a road map. The one thing I hope we avoid are reports. In fairness, no matter how well intentioned, we are gone beyond that stage.

How does one impress visiting dignitaries most? Our music impresses them and it works. We were asked to entertain the Chinese leader in Dublin Castle and we were given a very strict protocol briefing beforehand. We were given a time limit of 18 minutes and were asked to ensure that we did not go over time. All the good people were present on the night and as we were nearing the end of our time, an official came up to us and said to keep going. The officials were watching the body language and the Chinese leader was enjoying it. We kept going and the Chinese leader left his seat, came up to where we were performing, got a bodhrán and started to beat it. In political or diplomatic terms, that is more powerful than all the speeches that we make. We travelled abroad with former President McAleese and performed for the Sultan of Oman at a private party. We had a briefing beforehand and were told the girl dancers could not wear short skirts. We had to create pantaloons for the girls as a result of the religious aspect. However, on the night they played for the Sultan. There is our asset. There is no need for reports. What is needed is a response to this wonderful cultural asset that we have.

The question of engaging with the Department of Education and Skills was raised. The main relationship of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is with the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. I could not leave today without praising the officials from that Department. They are accessible at all times to listen to ideas and views. They are generous with finance and if we are able to prove ourselves with plans, as we did with the five year development plan, they are very generously funded. There was a question about how that Department can deal with us so well and so openly and respond if something is worth responding to and yet the Department of Education and Skills is so static in responding. One reason is that if one does not put music into the timetable, what will happen is that one will be on the back-burner all the time. It is only policy that can dictate the time allocation. These are fundamental issues. It is not rocket science. All the witnesses today, like ourselves, wonder why the decision-makers in the Department of Education and Skills do not see what we have in Ireland, which is exclusive to ourselves in many ways.

I hope there will be an outcome from today's meeting because we seem to have common ground, which is to expose young children to our music and give them a chance of embracing and practising it. There is no doubt about its impact; it is character building. There is no doubt that it gives them confidence, a focus and a vision in life. That is not overstating it. We understand the reason for academic examinations and so on, but this is a vital part of a young person's life. It is also a vital part of our nation. I hope that from today's meeting this could be brought forward for a direct discussion with the Department.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I call Senator Fintan Warfield. We will return to this again, if we have time.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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We had an introduction to tourism from our member from Kerry.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Every village and town was mentioned.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Chairman, the Deputy is not here for the reply.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. My background is in music. I learned classical music from the age of six in the Royal Academy of Music. I was guided out of classical tuition and encouraged to pursue traditional music because when I reached grade five with the Royal Academy, I was literally not good enough so I was not able to progress through the grades on that front. I take the point Dr. Orla McDonagh made on musical literacy. I ended up touring with an element of the Wolfe Tones for seven years. I was two years full-time in the States. Our folk song tradition is really important to me and it amplifies the voices of our people and our city. It is all recalled and retold in the oral lore. I wonder if musical literacy is a challenge in any way to that tradition.

On the question of the qualification requirements for teaching music, who would make those regulations? Would it be the Department of Education and Skills? Do the witnesses know where the regulations on the qualification to teach music would come from in order that it would be incorporated into the legislation? Mr. Ó Murchú might like to cover any implication that would have. He mentioned the 800 teachers in Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann who have a diploma. What are the implications that any regulatory requirement down the line could have on that?

I am glad that Mr. Gerard Keenan mentioned the Creative Ireland initiative. It was a welcome proposal that represented a very obvious change in language from all Departments, which is what we would all welcome, but for some time I have felt it has been a programme of spin, that it is repackaged and rebranded existing initiatives. We found out that Creative Ireland spent 30% of €5 million on advertisements and promotions. We have concerns about the arms length policy, but I certainly support the five pillars. One could not argue with the five pillars of the programme, but I wonder about 2022. As the Sinn Féin spokesperson on the arts, I have never attempted to prioritise one art form over another, but music transcends all our art forms, as Senator O'Donnell said in her reference to the playwright, Tom Murphy.

IMRO has proposed a music strategy. I wonder whether that is what is required to deal with education, infrastructure, recordings, our orchestras and copyright and whether people would support a music strategy.

I understand that the funding of Music Generation by U2 is being phased out. Will the representatives clarify that? Are the witnesses satisfied that the future of the programme is safe and that the Government is on side with it?

Mr. Gerard Keenan:

I thank Senator Warfield for his questions. I will make a general point. We have lost our way entirely in terms of culture, music and art in the classroom. I endorse everything Dr. Orla McDonagh said. I happily went to DIT for years as a child when the VEC ran it. I came from a very ordinary working class background in Walkinstown.

The college of music was affordable but that has changed dramatically despite the best efforts - I worked there for 12 years - of the people in it. There is a huge financial barrier to children taking specific music lessons which is an awful shame. I find it extraordinary and, taking note of the recent RTÉ crisis, if one looks at the 1970s and 1980s - I am old enough to have been there - there were seven theatre companies in Limerick, but there is not one now. The last one is Bottom Dog and it is nearly closing. There are simple things like that. I remember taking part in amazing things in the Project. RTÉ had a full orchestra. It had a concert orchestra and the RTÉ singers. The bottom line with all of this is that it was in very difficult times in Ireland. That is why I feel so strongly about this. This is where we have lost our way. Music in education was removed. It is like the leaving certificate now; it is all about points. Maybe I am just looking for romantic Ireland and it is dead and gone and all of that but the point is it made a wonderful difference to a generation. People were very resilient. There were people like Gabriel Byrne doing things in the Project. I was lucky enough to be part of that. There was Peter Sheridan and all those sorts of people and musicians like Brian Dunning. They are still around and still practising their art. There was music in ordinary schools. In my case, I wanted to learn the trumpet. My uncle Frank played the trumpet. I was able to afford to go. When I am asked what the Department can do, that is what it can do. It comes back to proper funding. The Department should realise that an arts education in any art whether verse, acting or music, makes for better, more resilient and more adaptable people. We are lecturing non-stop about the change in the economy and about what people need to be able to do. Arts are proven, as Ms McDonagh has referred to. It is fascinating. It is all there in Finland. Everything is there, the orchestras and the music. I met a wonderful trumpet player, Pasi Pirinen, who was very talented. Let us say he was from Newport in Mayo and the trumpet teacher was in Dublin. The trumpet teacher was paid to go half way by the Government and a local organisation paid Pasi Pirinen to go half way to meet the teacher. That sort of thinking is important. Look at what a progressive country it is despite all the hard times. I have wandered a bit in my answer. It is worth remembering where we came from and we seem to have forgotten.

To answer Senator O'Donnell's question, 20% of the funding for Sing Out With Strings is from local government and that is it, the rest we raise with a dog and pony show going around saying "Please give us €10,000". My answer was a bit long.

Ms Attracta Brady:

Even though we are from slightly different music genres, we all have the same basic ideas. The idea that we are developing the whole person is paramount to what we are doing. There is an old Chinese proverb that says children only need three things. They need somebody to love them, something to do and something to look forward to. If we put that into the musical sense, we see parents who invest in the child with their music and give the child instruments. The cost of a fiddle starts at €100 and the sky is the limit. It is an investment. In terms of something to look forward to, the children look forward to their outings, their musical performances, their friendships and events. We are talking about developing the whole child.

I come from the traditional genre. I am well able to read music but I learned how to play first, in the same way that children learn to speak before they learn how to read. Children learn how to speak at home and probably learn how to read a little bit before they go to school but they go to school to learn literacy. From our perspective, we look at an aural and emotional education because music comes from the heart. It deals with the whole person. It reflects the person. From the Department of Education and Skill's point of view, we are talking about regulation, legislation and support. The new junior cycle has no mention of traditional music in its music curriculum. Not only that, but for the child who wants to learn music outside of school there is an issue. There are thousands of such children. Children will be very well set to do 50% of their leaving certificate music through performance but in the new junior certificate they are not allowed to sit the exam unless they have done the subject in school, which means that if a student wants to sit the music exam and there is no music in their school, they are not allowed to do so. That is not fair to music students. It is something we could have addressed. I laughed at Deputy Danny Healy-Rae earlier when he talked about my memory and my numbers. That is my music training coming out.

Mr. Gerard Keenan:

We will tell him that.

Dr. Orla McDonagh:

I want to follow up on the literacy issue. We need to be careful that we do not have a narrow definition of literacy. I am a classical concert pianist but I have a trad flute at home. If I grew up in Ireland and did not know about the traditions of my traditional music, I would consider myself illiterate. It is very interesting if one looks back at the old school music books from the 1950s and 1960s in this country. People were well able to read and sing by ear. Aural training is huge in all music training. We often consider Third World country immigrants in our country as people we are giving a hand up to. I have talked to a number of different primary school teachers who discover that these children are far more literate in music than our own Irish students. We need to be very careful about our definitions of literacy because it goes beyond what is printed on the page. The last thing I was asked about was who would make the legislation. We would need to have representatives of all the traditions and levels. If we are not going to do this in a vacuum we need to compare it with what is going on in the world beyond our island. We know what we do here but there is a perspective and things we can learn from other countries. As Mr. Keenan said, we can learn from Finland where there were extraordinary moves taken a number of decades ago that have totally changed its music output and the whole country's creative industry output. There are lessons to be learned outside of Ireland too.

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

On a point of clarification, within the context of our conversation around music in Ireland today, a lot of the discussion has been around music education. It is important to clarify that the space that Music Generation lives in is that of performance music education, which adds value and enriches mainstream formal education but does not replace that curriculum. When we talk about teachers in schools, the space that Music Generation lives in is very much that of the professional musician, a part of whose practice involves music education. We very much deliver vocal and instrumental tuition across all genres, styles and contexts that adds value and enriches the curriculum but does not deliver the curriculum. That is a very important distinction to make. That is why I referenced musical citizenship and cultural entitlement in that sense.

To answer Senator Warfield's question about whether funding is safe into the future, he will be aware of the announcement the Taoiseach, Deputy Leo Varadkar, made in December 2017 where he said Music Generation would be extended countrywide as soon as possible and certainly by 2022. Music Generation is extremely confident it will deliver on that commitment. The funding, as with any Government funding, is subject to the budgetary process but we are absolutely confident we can deliver.

I will address Senator O'Donnell's question about how to lead Music Generation. The Senator mentioned the Department. Music Generation has a very close and productive partnership with the Department of Education and Skills. Since my appointment in June 2010 we have worked very hard to cultivate a very productive relationship with the Department. Music Generation is built on collaboration and partnership. When the Senator asks how to get it led, the answer to that question is that the leadership needs to come at local level from those who own it. This is not something that can be owned by any Government Department or the national development office working in a catalytic way. The owners of this are the local partners who take it on and the communities in which it lives, the musicians that breathe life into it, who inspire children and young people. Fundamentally the children and young people are those custodians of it. Our role is very much working as an enabler, a broker, a catalyst to encourage that sense of ownership so we can build musical communities that own and need this.

That really is the answer to the question. Those communities have to be supported within an ecosystem of well connected partnerships that operate on various different levels.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I asked that question in a general sense. I am of the view that creativity should always have its own independence and that when a group such as Music Generation collaborates, it is to its advantage that it remains independent. The musicianship should also remains independent and not be beamed down by a big mother ship. Without the four organisations before the committee, where would we be? We sometimes let Governments off the hook because other people are doing the work. Underlying that, the Department should be leading music education for all. Third-level colleges should be doing it as well. I did not mean to make a distinction. How much money is the Government providing for the schemes?

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

The amount of money provided by the Government is outlined in my report. Currently, the Department of Education and Skills co-funds Music Generation to the tune of €2.485 million annually.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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That is quite generous.

Ms Rosaleen Molloy:

That funding is matched by all of the local partnership.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I am wondering whether Sing Out With Strings could use some of that funding, instead of being obliged to go begging around the shops and alleyways of Limerick.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all of our guests for attending. They have provided a really good insight into what is happening within this really important area. I also thank them for the amount of work they are doing in the sectors in which they are involved. As Deputy Danny Healy-Rae said, the whole committee is open at all times to receiving information from the various organisations. We will be able to fight on their behalf with the Department and will hopefully be able to change the minds of Ministers as well.

Gabhaim míle buíochas leis na finnéithe as teacht isteach inniu. Feicfimid arís iad, le cúnamh Dé.