Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 14 February 2018
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality
Garda Homicide Statistics: Discussion
10:30 am
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The purpose of this meeting is to discuss issues surrounding the recording and classification of Garda homicide figures, including the review being conducted by An Garda Síochána into the classification of homicides and the reasons for the delay in publishing the findings of that review and furnishing a report to the Policing Authority.
I welcome, once again, Assistant Commissioners Michael Finn, Assistant Commissioner Orla McPartlin, Chief Superintendent Brian Sutton and Dr. Gurchand Singh, head of the Garda analysis service.
At the outset, on my own behalf and on that of the committee, I express our condolences on the tragic death last weekend of Detective Superintendent Colm Fox. I understand his funeral takes place this morning which is why the acting Garda Commissioner, Dónall Ó Cualáin, cannot be with us. Our thoughts are with Mr. Fox's family and his colleagues, including those here, and his friends at this very sad time.
Under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name, in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
Mr. Michael Finn:
I thank the Chairman. I will pass on his sentiments to my colleagues and to the family of our late colleague.
I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today. An Garda Síochána takes the investigation of each and every suspicious death very seriously. All members of An Garda Síochána understand completely that any death regardless of whether it is ultimately deemed to be from natural causes, accidental or premeditated brings significant pain for the deceased’s loved ones and, as such, it is vital that they are investigated fully and professionally so families can be provided with answers. It is also important that each death is recorded accurately on PULSE to ensure that An Garda Síochána, our stakeholders and society at large has the most up-to-date information available on natural, accidental and suspicious deaths recorded in Ireland at any particular time. It was in this light that, in July 2016, the Garda National Protective Services Bureau asked the Garda analysis service to conduct a comprehensive analysis of homicides with a domestic motive in the Republic of Ireland over a ten-year period from 2007 to 2016. The purpose of this analysis was to identify any trends and patterns in homicides recorded in Ireland where domestic abuse may have been a motive. This data could then be used to inform the development of An Garda Síochána's domestic abuse policy and interventions.
In furtherance of this review, cases dealt with by the Office of the State Pathologist, OSP, during 2013, 2014 and 2015 were initially examined by the Garda analysis service. This examination was carried out to ensure that every case that had a suspicious circumstance or cause of death, which would be pathologically considered to be a homicide, was compared with the PULSE incident classification. This review identified 41 deaths where, on initial examination, the related PULSE incidents required further analysis from either a PULSE incident classification or data quality perspective. In January 2017, a working group was established under a chief superintendent that included senior staff from the Garda analysis service to review the PULSE incidents concerned and identify the rational for the PULSE classification and the data quality relating to the 41 deaths. The review identified a necessity for clarity and consistency regarding the application of the crime-counting rules in the context of the PULSE classification of homicide incidents. This review found that each of the 41 deaths were investigated.
In September 2017, guidance for classification rules for homicides were agreed upon in order to assist the correct classification of homicide incidents. Of the 41 deaths, it was identified that 12 deaths required reclassification. In each of those 12 deaths, family members of the deceased were contacted to inform them of the change in the incident classification and to offer them advice and information on victim support organisations that may be of help to them. I am conscious of the need to protect the identify of victims and victims’ families and I am sure the committee will appreciate this concern. I am also conscious that a number of the 12 cases are before the courts or currently under investigation and may be subject to further classification changes on PULSE. In order to provide assurance on the validity of PULSE classification, it was decided in consultation with the Central Statistics Office, CSO, to extend the review to all homicides back to 2003. The data for the period 2003 to the present is utilised by the CSO to prepare the publication of crime statistics. The Policing Authority requested an independent peer review of the quality of the investigations carried out in respect of the 41 cases. This is now being carried out by the recently established working group.
As a result of interactions with the CSO and the Policing Authority, the terms of reference for a working group under assistant commissioner, executive support and corporate services were agreed. The working group has been tasked with undertaking the following: an independent peer review of the quality of the investigations carried out in respect of the 41 cases for which investigations have not yet concluded or reached the courts; dip sampling to establish the degree to which PULSE is updated in a timely manner with outcomes from the higher courts; and all homicide cases from 2003 to 2017 to be reviewed including fatal road traffic collisions. The working group will also monitor PULSE to identify any new homicide incidents from 1 January 2018 to ensure that they are appropriately classified.
An Garda Síochána is very conscious of the need to ensure we have a high quality data across all crime areas to assist us in preventing and detecting crime to protect and support communities and victims of crime. We have introduced a number of measures in this regard and more are planned. It is also vital that there is a culture throughout the organisation of correctly recording data. An Garda Síochána fully recognises the need to provide the public and our other stakeholders with correct data so that issues affecting policing are based on accurate information. That is why we are continually examining our processes and have expended so much time and effort to ensure our data in respect of crimes, including homicides, is accurate.
I fully accept that the review process could have been quicker. However, this is a highly complex area - often of a very complicated, fluidand sensitive nature, relating to case files, and each and every case being analysed and reviewed. Given the seriousness of the crimes involved, it is important that this process is thorough, detailed and robust. Any issues identified from this further review will be comprehensively addressed.
This matter was discovered by An Garda Síochána. The process to date has identified issues that we are addressing so they cannot happen again. I can assure the committee that An Garda Síochána has taken this matter very seriously and will continue to do so.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Finn. I will open the meeting to members for questions, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan being the first member to indicate.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee today. I echo the Chairman's words in offering his condolences on the death of detective superintendent Colm Fox.
I will begin with some questions to Dr. Singh regarding the homicide review. Is it correct that Dr.Singh is head of the analysis service in An Garda Síochána?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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On 27 April 2017, Dr. Singh was part of a group of senior garda management that attended a meeting of the Policing Authority. Does Dr. Singh recall that meeting?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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At that meeting, members of the Policing Authority raised questions about the homicide review and answers were given by senior members of An Garda Síochána. Does Dr. Singh have any concerns about the accuracy of the answers that were given by members of An Garda Síochána to the Policing Authority in respect of the homicide review?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
One of the issues was that members of my team and I did not get to see the report before it was finalised and submitted.
I felt it was important that members of my team who were part of the review group with me should sign off on the report, but that did not happen. That is where I expressed my concerns internally to senior management that it was important we have an opportunity to review the report.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I take it that Dr. Singh did have concerns about some of the answers at that meeting from Garda senior management to the Policing Authority?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I know, but that is part of the reason Dr. Singh had concerns?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I had a look at the report yesterday because it was available on the Internet. Does Dr. Singh agree that the representation conveyed to the Policing Authority was that the analysis and investigation sections had completed their analysis and the report and all that remained was the implementation of a couple of recommendations?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
My primary concern was that neither I nor my colleagues had had an opportunity to review the final report. That was important as it was a joint review team. There were colleagues from various parts of the organisation working on this issue and I felt it was important for us to have a look at and review it. When I did review it, I had concerns about what was in it.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. Singh agree that at the end of that meeting the Policing Authority was left with the impression that it was a report that had been approved by the Garda in general?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Singh did that subsequently.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When did Dr. Singh see the report for the first time? I am referring to the report referred to at the meeting of the Policing Authority on 27 April.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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What were Dr. Singh's views when he saw the report?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
I still had two broad sets of concerns. When I looked at the incident classification and some of the surrounding information, I could not square how an incident had been classified in the way that it had, given the information available. I felt some contradicted our own crime counting rules on the basis of the information available. For example, I was looking at incidents in which an injured party was deceased and the offence was down as an assault causing harm. Our own crime recording rules state an assault causing harm where subsequently someone dies because of the assault should be upgraded to a homicide. We had such examples on the system. There were sudden deaths which looked as if they were being investigated as homicides. As a sudden death is seen as non-crime, there were times when I could not reconcile what had been included.
The other concern I had was about the methodology used. There were views that the methodology used and approach members of my team took were limited. I felt that was incorrect. The limiting factor suggested we were reliant on only two sources. We always said we would be reliant on only two sources - PULSE and the State Pathologist's reports. We always said that to get a more rounded view of the classification, we needed to go to the case files. That is what we were arguing for.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When Dr. Singh received the report some weeks after 27 April, was he being asked, in respect of the analysis unit, to sign off on it?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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What was Dr. Singh's view of the report?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Why not?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Did Dr. Singh communicate to senior Garda management his inability to sign off on the report?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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There was a subsequent meeting of the Policing Authority on 29 June 2017 which Dr. Singh attended. Again, the homicide review was raised. In fairness to Dr. Singh, it was in the context of issues related to dangerous driving causing death. However, I think he did say the database had been rectified. In that reference was he trying to indicate that the homicide review issue had been resolved at that stage?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
The issues were raised with us by the CSO. When they were raised, we did have a look at the internal system and began to identify some of the problems on the system. To me, the roads policing side of the issue has always been slightly different from the homicide aspect. Many of the homicides were already on the system. It is not that they were misclassified per sebut how they had been classified. They were being obscured and we began to identify them. I went into the meeting on that date with the assumption that the database had been rectified. However, I was notified subsequently that some of the changes still had to be made. In the process of the making the changes some other issues began to rise. Therefore, we needed to ensure the changes were made subsequently.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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On 29 June the Policing Authority was informed that the report was close to conclusion. Was Dr. Singh's unit involved with the report at that stage? If so, who in Dr. Singh's unit was dealing with it?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will move on quickly because I am conscious other colleagues want to come in.
There was a further meeting of the Policing Authority on 28 September 2017, prior to which a report had been sent to the authority. Is that correct?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Had Dr. Singh's unit signed off on that report?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Was the signing off in respect of the 12 missed classifications and the 41 cases? The report had been signed off on?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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For the purposes of clarity, at that meeting the chairwoman of the Policing Authority asked for confirmation that the report had been signed off on by the analysis side and the investigation side. Is that correct? It was signed off on by both sides?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
Ms Josephine Feehily asked if we had signed off on the classification side of it, that is, if the report had been seen by us. The answer to that question was yes; we had seen and gone through it and agreed with the classifications. The other element was Article 2 compliance. That was a slightly different matter which the investigation side of it was reviewing.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I know, but confirmation was given to the chairwoman of the Policing Authority that the cases investigated were all Article 2 compliant. Is that correct?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That obviously concerns the report that was sent to the committee on the misclassifications. On homicides between 2003 and 2017, can Dr. Singh assure the committee that they have all been investigated and are deemed to be in compliance with Article 2?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Did Dr. Singh see the investigation files for the purposes of the report sent to the Policing Authority prior to the meeting held in September?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The objective behind this is to ensure there is accurate information on PULSE on homicides.
What happened between September's meeting and the previous meetings in April and June? Was the methodology changed by the Garda?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
There was a lot of robust discussion within the organisation on the best way to examine and understand the potential level of misclassification. Towards the end of that period, one of the analysts put together what I thought was a very good approach to clarifying our crime-counting rules in respect of identifying homicides. That was then applied to the 41 cases. That is how we came to the final report on the 12.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It appears that what was said in April was not the case, because the review is not just completed. I have no problem with going back and I do not want to criticise the witnesses in this regard. What is the status of the report at present? When will we have a full report on homicides between 2003 and 2017?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
That will be a part of the new review group. We will parcel out the investigations, but addressing the issues around classification will not be a quick process. We are not talking about a matter of weeks here. It will take months to go through it, and potentially up to five or six months to begin to identify the problematic incidents.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. Singh agree that the representation made to the Policing Authority in April was not accurate, because in fact this is a much more complicated process than was communicated at that time?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am not trying to criticise people; I am just trying to get to the truth.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Like Deputy O'Callaghan and the Chair, I extend my sympathies to the Garda. I also congratulate the Garda on the quite considerable recent success in tackling the distribution of child abuse material. It was a considerable success in combatting a heinous crime. That is worth noting. I have a number of questions, some of which arise from Deputy O'Callaghan's questions and the first of which is addressed to Assistant Commissioner Finn. Does he agree it would be a cause of grave public concern and would be very serious if it was the case that any unlawful deaths were not properly investigated?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Garda Síochána opening statement states "that in July 2016, the Garda National Protective Services Bureau asked the Garda analysis service to conduct a comprehensive analysis of homicides with a domestic motive in the Republic of Ireland over a ten-year period". How did this issue first arise? How did it come to the attention of An Garda Síochána that there was a discrepancy or that there might be any issue regarding the recording of homicides?
Mr. Michael Finn:
I might bring in Dr. Singh on the work of the analysts and what they unearthed. This process started in July and the end of the year had been reached before that three-year period was completed. I say that to demonstrate that a significant amount of work would be required to go back to 2013, given how long it took to analyse that segment alone. That was an internal review instigated by the Garda. As each of the cases was examined, issues relating to classification did arise. That was the context in which Dr. Singh and his people said to us that 41 homicides from that batch required examination, because there were concerns around classification. That is how the process started. It started internally, with An Garda Síochána carrying out its own review and unearthing these issues, which we determined would require further analysis.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to clarify before Dr. Singh comments. Obviously there was something in those records and in the recording of cases which caused this review to begin, so what-----
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
We looked at the State Pathologist's reports and found incidents there that pathologically, were considered to be homicides. However, when we looked on the PULSE system, such an incident might not be recorded there as a homicide. It was often recorded in a lesser group - a non-crime group, such as sudden death. Alternatively, it might be recorded as an assault. The report that we had from the Office of the State Pathologist did not correspond to what was recorded on PULSE. That said, there was always a missing piece of information, namely, the investigation file. The investigation file may have recorded some other issues which led to the incident's classification. That is why, when the issue was initially raised with me in discussion with the analysts, I decided to raise this problem with the executive. It was about November when we raised the problem. I felt that we needed to have a look at this, but we needed to review the case files in order to get a fuller picture.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is it fair to say that the concerns around the recording of data arose primarily due to discrepancies between files from the Office of the State Pathologist and the PULSE records?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Singh. My next question concerns the review. I do not refer to the independent peer review that has been announced, but the review of the initial group of cases. My understanding is that the Garda data analysts checked how deaths were classified in the crime records but did not have sight of the full case files. It was therefore not possible to check if homicide investigations were conducted in all cases that warranted a homicide investigation. Further, it is my understanding that where analysts found problems with the classification of some homicides, the people who were contacted to clarify any queries were the superintendents in charge of the initial investigation. Is that an accurate reflection of that review and the way it was conducted?
Mr. Michael Finn:
A group was set up when the analysts alerted us to 41 cases which needed to be examined. Initially, that examination was done in the context of the classification issue. As part of that process, the group spoke to the district officers concerned. They raised the query around classification and inquired about the investigation file. That liaison took place with the investigating members of various districts to see what happened to those particular investigations. Following that interaction, the team that was looking at the examination was able to confirm that each of those 41 cases had been investigated. However, the analysts did have some concerns about the way they were classified, because the classifications of the cases on PULSE did not tally with what Dr. Singh and his people were finding at the Office of the State Pathologist. This was where the synchronisation of the two had to take place.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is it fair to say that one of the criticisms the Policing Authority made of this approach was that the people who were contacted with any further queries were in fact the same superintendents who were in charge of those initial investigations? As such, there was not really any independent oversight.
They confirmed that they were satisfied that these investigations were carried out to the adequate standard for a homicide investigation but, of course, that is what one would expect them to do, given that they had carried out these investigations in the first place.
Mr. Michael Finn:
We had a degree of satisfaction that the investigations were carried out. The Policing Authority asked would it not be prudent to get a peer review done of these investigations in order that everyone would be satisfied. Therefore, we brought forward Mr. Sutton and his team to get in someone independent to do that reassessment in order that we could reassure everyone for once and for all that these investigations were carried out and were compliant with Article 2 and that we now have them classified in the correct order so that the CSO, when it publishes its homicides statistics, can state with confidence it has all these homicides correctly recorded and can publish those statistics. That is the process that is taking place at present.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can Dr. Singh comment on this? Is what I have described an accurate characterisation? Does he agree that there were flaws in the independence of the process or with the people who were asked to clarify any possible queries?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
When we were looking at the State Pathologist's reports, we were looking not only at the classification issues but also at other issues that were being raised, possible issues concerning the investigation. We flagged these up with a view to looking at them. The initial review did go out and ask those who had conducted the investigations about the questions asked. My understanding was that subsequently the investigation files were sought and drawn back in centrally for review. Again, this review process was separate to the analysis. I think the Policing Authority then raised the issue with us to ask, again, whether we should have this peer-reviewed with a senior investigating officer, which is sensible enough and a fair enough suggestion. This was then agreed to, and those are the beginnings of this new process.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I just want clarification on this peer review. Obviously, a review was under way already. An independent peer review has been announced. Is this a consolidated process or will two processes run parallel?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This independent peer review will use all the previous work that has been done until now.
Mr. Michael Finn:
Yes, and any other investigative information. We must understand and accept that some of these investigations are live, still ongoing, so their statuses will change as the investigations proceed. They are not all historical; the vast majority of them have gone through the courts - the coroner's court, etc. - and have therefore been completed but a small number are still live investigations.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, what everyone wants to achieve is the full restoration of confidence in the process, the recording of offences and so on. One of the issues that I think is causing concern is the fact that we do not have even an indicative timeline. Is it possible to give an outside timeline, the latest date by which we could expect this to be completed? We have very little sense of when it will be complete, and the public and the committee deserve a date. What is the longest period it might take?
Mr. Brian Sutton:
A few things need to be said in that regard. First, there are two bodies of work that need to be done by An Garda Síochána. The first is the classification and whether the files were correctly or incorrectly classified and, if they were not classified, the reasons for that. The second is the investigation. Was the investigation carried out in compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights? I will talk the committee through the process. It can happen, and has happened on numerous occasions, in respect of the 41 cases that have been highlighted in 2013, 2014 and 2015, that someone is assaulted in one district, is brought to hospital and dies two months later and this is recorded in that hospital as a sudden death. Then an investigation is conducted and someone is arrested, prosecuted, charged - let us say with murder - and convicted of manslaughter. It still stays on PULSE as a sudden death. The work done by the analysis service looked at the results of the State Pathologist's office and saw blunt force trauma to the head was the cause of death and then looked at the corresponding incidents on PULSE and it went down as a sudden death, not a homicide, so there was a fault there. This concerns the 41 cases. We will look at them, their classification and the reasons they were not updated. There is now a process in place to ensure this does not happen again.
The second part of this is, in compliance with Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, to look at the investigation. Of the 41 cases, a number are before the courts and have been dealt with before the courts, a number have been dealt with by the coroner's courts and a number are still live investigations. In compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights, my team will look at the investigations into these cases to see whether they are compliant and whether they are correctly or incorrectly classified. Does that address the Deputy's issues?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am afraid it does not. I appreciate the explanation and I am better enlightened but there was a specific question. When one is putting together a group such as this, there must be some sense of how long the process will take. If Mr. Sutton could offer either a minimum or a maximum, I think it would improve our confidence and the public confidence in this process. This cannot be an indefinite process.
Mr. Brian Sutton:
Some investigations I look at could have 30 jobs allocated to them; some could have 200 jobs allocated to them. The review will be done in a thematic fashion whereby various aspects of the investigation will be looked at. It is not possible for me to say it will take six months or nine months. I am just not able to say that. I have prioritised the 41 cases for years 2013, 2014 and 2015. However, the analysis service has also been tasked with looking at 2017, 2016 and right back to 2003 and, if there are issues with those cases, to send them over to the review team for us to look at.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can Dr. Singh give even a minimum timeframe for the analysis part of this process?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
I would say, to be on the safe side, it will be about five to six months. We must be mindful that not everything is in our control here. For example, we are reliant on access to the State Pathologist's lab and so are reliant on their goodwill. We have only one person who is very expert in this area to whom we are assigning this job, so I would say about five to six months. I refer to the review of those pathological reports and looking at the comparison with PULSE. Then there is the question of the investigations. They froze up, so I cannot comment on how long that part of the review would take.
Mr. Michael Finn:
If I can help, there are aspects which we can do quickly. For example, the incidents related to fatal collisions, dangerous driving causing death, that type of information will be extrapolated from our IT system in a much quicker way. We can therefore get that aspect of the work done quickly. Dr. Singh's work on the homicides, the murders and the manslaughters, will take more time, but we will be able to get the traffic work done quickly and out of the way in order that when Dr. Singh's people come with the analysis from their consultation with the State Pathologist, we will be able to conclude that much more quickly.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of other brief questions. I found the description of the events during Deputy O'Callaghan's questioning quite extraordinary. I find it remarkable that there was to be a discussion at the Policing Authority on 27 April and a report was furnished to the Policing Authority specifically on these matters and that Dr. Singh and his team did not have sight of it. I find this almost impossible to comprehend. Would the assistant commissioner agree that this is comparable to a discussion taking place at the Policing Authority involving significant drugs issues and the Garda national drugs and serious crime unit not having sight of the report?
Mr. Michael Finn:
I accept that concerns were raised about this.
In the report presented to the Policing Authority in April somebody had reviewed the investigations and clarified that an investigation had been carried out in each of the 41 incidents. The error, however, was made in that we did not sit down with the analysts and raise or surface the issue of whether the investigations had all been properly classified. That was probably one of the most significant issues with which we had to deal initially. From that engagement we discovered that there had been inconsistencies in the manner in which 108 district officers across the State had interpreted our crime counting rules. They had been done in a slightly different way but none was incorrect. They had taken a slightly different interpretation of them. It is important that during the work we did between April and September we sat down with the analysts and worked out the criteria, on which we all agreed, for measuring and classifying all of the incidents. That is the piece of work that took us from April to September. We did not just sit down with the analysts; we also sat down with staff from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, which has a particular interest as it is tasked with producing statistics for homicides for Ireland and the European Union. A lot of work was going on behind the scenes on issues the CSO had brought to the table with the classifications. Once the issue of homicides classification had been raised with the Policing Authority, the CSO looked at its figures and raised some other issues for us with the classifications. We worked with it on all of the issues it had raised with how incidents had been classified. This work was ongoing in tandem with the review of the 41 incidents. It was not just a case of sitting down and not progressing the issue between April and September; a lot of work was ongoing. There is the broader picture on all of the data available, not just the homicides, on which we are focusing in the 41 cases. As I said in my opening statement, it is important to have all of the data correct.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I want to clarify one or two points before I move on. My final question is for Dr. Singh. This process had its roots in the process described in July 2016. At what stage between July 2016 and 27 April 2017 did it come to light internally that there were discrepancies? Can Dr. Singh put a date on when the discrepancies became apparent in the documents from the State Pathologist and the PULSE system?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Is it the case that five months before the meeting of the Policing Authority concern was expressed by the data analysis unit about these potential homicide cases?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
Yes. With regard to one of my recommendations at that stage, I said we had two pieces of information, the PULSE record and the State Pathologist's reports, but we were missing a very important element - the investigation file. The investigation file can help us to begin to understand the classification. We needed three bits of information to be assured that what we had on the PULSE system was correct. It was at that stage that I made a suggestion that we review the cases to satisfy ourselves that the classification was correct. At that stage it was agreed that a group would be put together to do this.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Singh confirm that the report prepared and furnished to the Policing Authority on 27 April was not run by the data analysis unit, despite there having been clear data analysis issues for five months previous to this point with these cases?
Mr. Michael Finn:
That was the difficulty in April. We had conducted an internal review of the investigations. We did not go back to the analysts. That is where the issue arose, as raised by the Policing Authority. We went back and sat down with the analysts and agreed on how we would classify and how the crime counting rules would be interpreted in the 41 incidents. The initial review had focused on the investigations and whether an investigation had been carried out. It looked at the information gathered on the post mortems, the covering note on the files sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions, at whether directions had come back from the Director of Public Prosecutions, the verdicts of the courts or the Coroner's Court. That was the type of information we had gathered on the investigations, but the analysts still had concerns that we had not looked at the classifications. That is why we went back to review them again.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I want to come back to Dr. Singh on the matter. The delegates have articulated all of the issues with the investigations, but it is clearly the case that senior Garda management was aware of the fact that there were data issues and that this document had not been run past Dr. Singh. Was Dr. Singh frustrated by this?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
Let me answer two things. First, one must be mindful that when we raised this issue in November, part of the purpose was to say we had concerns. That is important. We wanted to actually have this exercise and run it by the review group to see if the concerns were real. That was the purpose.
On the question of whether we got to see the final report, I have already said we did not get an opportunity to sign off on the final report, for whatever reason. When we did review it, there were elements with which clearly we could not agree.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Singh has said that subsequent to the meeting in April he expressed concerns internally. How and when did he express them and is he satisfied that they have all been addressed at this point?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
I wrote to everybody who was on our side of the table at the Policing Authority to raise my concerns that I had not had an opportunity to review the report. I thought this was important because the review team had contained analysts and members of An Garda Síochána. If we were to argue that it was to be a joint approach, it was really important that I be able to say I had confidence in it also. I wrote to the management team which was there on the day. That letter was subsequently leaked after which - I am sure people were organising in the background - we were to have a look at the review again to highlight our concerns to see if we could address them.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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To be more specific, can Dr. Singh give a general or a specific date on which he expressed that concern? I do not need to go through the concerns expressed, but is he satisfied that the concerns he expressed in that correspondence have been addressed?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
I raised the concerns internally a few days after the initial public meeting. I had taken time to reflect on the meeting and wrote my note. My concern was that we had not had a full opportunity to review the final document. We asked that the classifications be looked at again in order that we could all have confidence in them and sign off on them. It has taken a little time because there has been some debate, but I am happy enough that our concerns have been addressed with the classifications.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I thank the representatives from An Garda Síochána for coming. I offer my sympathy to the family of the late Detective Superintendent Colm Fox and his colleagues.
I do not want to repeat points made by others, but there are two issues, the first of which is the recording and classification of homicides, while the second is the internal review. There is no doubt that the misclassification of a homicide is probably one of the worst things that could be envisaged for the people affected.
We have met them over the years. There are plenty of them and they formed the background of the cases which went to the independent review mechanism which the previous Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, established. They were people who have lived for decades with dissatisfaction around investigations into homicide matters where they never received closure. That the most serious crime imaginable could be misclassified and, potentially, not investigated properly is a hugely traumatic experience for people who have lost loved ones.
In April 2017 when the story initially raised its head, Deputy Commissioner Twomey said there were some minor issues as to the classification of some homicides. We learned in February this year that 89 road deaths over 14 years were not classified on PULSE and had to be reclassified while 12 cases of domestic homicide over a two-year period had to be reclassified. Does senior Garda management continue to stand over the comment that these issues are minor?
Mr. Michael Finn:
I do not consider them to be minor in the context of how we investigate any homicide. That does not reflect what we do on the ground. In fact, the review of the investigations we looked at did not find that cases were not properly investigated. While, as my colleague outlined, they were not recorded with the correct classification on our IT system, when one delves into the investigation files, one finds they were investigated. There are investigation files to go to. On road traffic collisions, there were fatal collisions which were investigated and directions came back subsequently to charge someone with dangerous driving causing death, the garda created the charge and it went to court. However, having regard to crime counting rules, he or she should have created a separate incident of dangerous driving causing death so that when the CSO looked at our figures, it would have seen a fatal collision and the charge which it would then have recorded as a homicide.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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However, the acting Commissioner does not consider that the statement by Deputy Commissioner Twomey that they were minor issues was accurate.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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It does not tally with what the acting Commissioner has subsequently found out.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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It is just that the information was the same in April 2017 as it is now. It is unfortunate that the Deputy Commissioner is not here himself. I will not go further into that. Deputy Ó Laoghaire asked how the Garda started this. The acting Commissioner seemed to suggest that the Garda thought of it itself; that this came out in 2016 just because-----
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Why was that happening in July 2016 when the issues had been flagged with the Garda by the Garda Inspectorate investigation in 2014 which highlighted serious shortcomings in the manner in which gardaí handled domestic abuse cases and related matters?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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One of the recommendations of the 2014 report was for the Garda to conduct an analysis of domestic related murders to inform Garda policy on harm reduction. Was that done?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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When was that done?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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When exactly was that?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The acting Commissioner is saying it was done in advance of July 2016 when this started.
Mr. Michael Finn:
We have done a considerable amount of work in reviewing our policy on domestic abuse. That is a significant amount of work. My retired colleague was one of the principle architects and he commissioned this piece of work as part of that policy. That was just part of a series of interventions we made on domestic violence to ensure, for example, we had the equipment for patrol cars to record evidence from domestic violence scenes because people do not always come along afterwards and make a complaint notwithstanding the level of evidence at the scene. There was a great deal of work to improve the way we record and investigate incidents of domestic abuse.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Was that in advance of this latest July 2016 initiative?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I am trying to join the pieces here because we are talking about classification and misclassification of homicide in a domestic situation. There are linked areas around that which I want to feed into. The 2014 report suggested that all crimes of domestic violence and incidents of dispute should be recorded on PULSE irrespective of the willingness of a victim to make a complaint. When was that implemented? Has it been implemented? Is it the subject of ongoing review? The reason I ask is that there is a link. What assurance can the acting Commissioner give us about domestic abuse incidents which were misclassified, having been reported as a tension or complaint rather than as the serious assault which actually occurred? I am asking about where the signs were not recognised and that subsequently became a domestic homicide. Does the acting Commissioner know what point I am making? There is a potential link between the early classification of the original domestic violence and a failure to follow the signs in those early investigations. If the signs were not followed and a case was not investigated properly, something may have ended up as a homicide which should not have. That might not have happened if the investigation of the earlier domestic incident had been treated properly.
Mr. Michael Finn:
In November 2015, we put in a new process which we call "PULSE release 6.8". Every incident recorded on our systems goes through a process whereby a review takes place the following morning by the district officer of the incidents which took place the night before. Those incidents will not be closed out on our system until we are satisfied that the investigation has been completed. The process is that those investigations are put back until the district officer is satisfied that we have fully and properly investigated that incident. That process came in tandem with the EU directive on victims, which we embraced even before the legislation came in at all. We started that process in 2015.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I am asking whether the acting Commissioner can assure the committee and the public that there is no hint that the classification of a domestic homicide as a less serious crime was motivated by a desire to cover tracks because of missed opportunities where earlier signs of domestic abuse were not spotted. Was a final domestic homicide not classified as such to cover up for that? Can the acting Commissioner assure us that did not take place? I am mindful of a case in my area, the very tragic murder of one of my constituents which was very much in the public domain. Ms Baiba Saulite, who was murdered, was the mother of two young children and the life of a solicitor in the area was put in peril. The gardaí who originally investigated the abduction of that woman's children have subsequently and to this day maintained that the improper investigation of the abduction of the children and earlier incidents which were not heeded by senior management resulted in the unnecessary death of that woman later on. That is the angle I am coming from in this line of questioning.
Mr. Michael Finn:
I understand. As I was trying to explain, with some of the processes we have put in place, it will be evident to the member creating the record that a person has been involved in a previous incident. When I record that a person is the victim of a particular crime, our system will flag the fact that he or she has previously been the subject of an incident where there is a previous investigation. We will be alerted straight away if there was a previous domestic violence incident relating to that person. That history is now populated and fed to the member when he or she creates the incident. The awareness is there and one can see from the outset that there is a history and that we need to monitor the case.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Regardless of whether a person stands over a complaint later, are all incidents put on the system?
Mr. Michael Finn:
That is our policy. In fact, we have done a lot of work to ensure we classify our incidents properly.
We have a new system where all our incidents are being classified centrally at our Garda information services centre, GISC, in Castlebar. We have rolled this out in two regions, so that if a Garda wanted to create an incident, he goes through one centralised process where we have our staff equipped and trained. We make sure there is consistency across the country. Looking back at the issues relating to our data the challenge for the Garda Síochána is trying to get a level of consistency across the organisation. The new systems will ensure that the quality of our data will be accurate in the future. For example, when Dr. Singh and his team look at the data on domestic violence, they will find that the crimes have been correctly classified from the start. It also ensures the victim of a crime will get the services that he or she should from the State. We have to classify crime correctly from the start and that is the reason we have put in the new process in our call centre in Castlebar. Across the organisation, we are improving the quality of all our data that we put on PULSE, not just in relation to-----
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Does Mr. Finn believe the cultural problems, which are not unique to the Irish police service, are being tackled? I refer to the lack of seriousness in some instances where the view taken in cases of domestic violence and sexual assault is summarised by the attitude that it is a personal matter, time consuming and problematic and that people will sort it out between themselves. I was a bit shocked during the week when I surveyed the proceedings of the Charleton tribunal when two senior officers, albeit one retired now, referred to what was deemed by Mr. Justice O'Higgins as a serious sexual assault as the Kingscourt bus incident where a woman was groped and violated and that superintendent Cunningham and former chief superintendent Rooney did not recognise this as a sexual assault. If one senior officer said it, it might be one thing, but two senior officers saying it is a problem, particularly in view of Mr. Justice O'Higgins adjudication and the fact Mr. Justice Charleton had to pipe up and say that this incident has been established and there is no exaggeration. This reminded me of the Byrne and McGinn report where Maurice McCabe was accused of gross exaggeration by calling that a sexual assault but his analysis was upheld by Mr. Justice O'Higgins. Now even as late as last week we have two senior officers saying that was not a sexual assault at all. Mr. Finn is painting a picture that the Garda Síochána is addressing the issues but it strikes me that we have a very long way to go in terms of understanding this. If we do not understand it, it is not going to be classified properly.
Mr. Michael Finn:
It is important we recognise that and that we do so from the outset. Dr. Singh and his team go to the Garda College and the CSO personnel come to us and give us the same message, so that we understand the importance of our data. We had issues in the past with breath tests. It is important we educate our staff and make the changes so that we start off on the correct course from the first day the new students come into the Garda College and they get an appreciation of, and an understanding, that it is not just about recording data in that data means something in terms of the quality of the service we give to the victim of crime and that we must categorise data properly. Data are important in terms of giving information to the Road Safety Authority and in how we plan events to try to prevent collisions occurring. We need to educate and that is part of the process we are undertaking. It is not all about systems; we need also to convince and change the hearts and minds of our people. Data are important and we need to make sure we gather data properly and accurately and that we give the people the service they deserve.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The problem is that saying it is one thing, but doing it is another. Mr. Finn mentioned 1 million breath tests but I would say the 60 to 80 homicides each year are not on the same level as 1 million breath tests so those cases should be capable of being classified and analysed appropriately. What strikes me as odd, and I will raise some points on the internal review, is that while the spotlight was on, in terms of the inaccuracy and problems of classification of data around other issues, this was also going on. In his opening remark, Mr. Finn said that he had asked the Garda analysis service to conduct a comprehensive analysis of the homicides. We know the Policing Authority was not satisfied that this is what the Garda Síochána did because it said the internal review was not sufficiently robust. We know that what the Garda analysis unit did was to compare the pathology reports with the PULSE files, but it was not given access to the case files. How in God's name could that be called a comprehensive analysis if the people who were asked to analyse the data did not get access to the data?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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They were not given the case files.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Dr. Singh stated that in November 2016 he raised the issue of the files, stating he needed to look at the files.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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It was in November 2016. The people who Mr. Finn had asked to conduct a comprehensive analysis in July came to him in November, stating that they had looked at the pathology files and at the PULSE records that they could really evaluate anything unless they looked at the full files.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Did I mishear that? Did Mr. Finn say the people he had asked to conduct the comprehensive review told the Garda in November that they could only do so much without access to the full case files. Did I mishear that?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Does Dr. Singh think that was the response to his request, that his team could only do so much? I understand Dr. Singh did not specifically ask for the full case files, and that what actually happened was that it was decided to set up a joint body where the two sides, the analysts and gardaí, would look at all the files and examine them.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Did Dr. Singh and his team get access to all the files as part of that?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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How would that be considered a joint team? I would not call that a joint team.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I would dispute that what Mr. Finn has described is a joint team. Mr. Finn told us that the analysts were asked to conduct a comprehensive analysis, so they started to do that and in November 2016 they said they could not take this any further without the case files. As Mr. Finn said, they set up a joint committee to look at the full files but it is not a joint committee; it is the Garda which will look at the files. That ties in with Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire's earlier question.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Will Mr. Finn tell me about the group then?
Mr. Michael Finn:
What the analysts were asked to do initially was to do some research in relation to homicides, domestic homicides and the causation link in relation to our crime prevention strategies and our new policy on domestic abuse. That was a specific piece of work, an analysis of data. From that piece of work they were doing, they highlighted a number of incidents and investigations where they saw a discrepancy. They brought that separate piece of work to the deputy commissioner and said that they had unearthed some issues in relation to the classification, separate from the main piece of work they were doing, and stated they needed to look at it. The deputy commissioner agreed that there were issues; that the Garda needed to sit down as the analysts had brought the information to them, but they needed operational people to interpret it and address whether what the analysts were highlighting was correct or whether there were other issues.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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In essence, what they were highlighting was the purpose of the project and that the reassurance the victims of crime needed was not just the classification but that the homicide had been investigated to the standards of which a homicide should be investigated.
There was no way for them to validate that unless the full case files were examined.
How many people were on the review group, or whatever it was, that was set up internally in January 2017? Who examined the files? Were all the files examined in detail? My impression of what the Policing Authority was told was that, in response to the analysts asking whether the investigation had been done properly and requesting to examine the files, senior Garda management telephoned the superintendents who had conducted the investigations in the first place and asked them whether they had been conducted well, to which all those officers surprisingly said that they had been. All the investigations were deemed to be grand. That is the impression that has been given.
Mr. Michael Finn:
It is not a fair interpretation of what actually happened. When the analysts brought the 41 cases to the team that was initially set up to examine those investigations, the team considered what information had been recorded on PULSE, which was the information that was causing the issue for analysts. That team told the investigating teams that what had been recorded on PULSE did not make sense in light of what the analysts had shown, asked whether the cases in question had been investigated and asked how the investigations had turned out. As my colleague, Mr. Sutton, mentioned, an investigation can start off when, for an example, an ambulance is called to pick someone up at the side of the street. We do not know how that person died, but we are called by the hospital about the death and gardaí go along and investigate. During the course of that investigation, we might discover that the person was assaulted.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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It is not-----
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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What I am trying to gather-----
Mr. Michael Finn:
That information was not always recorded on our PULSE system, predominantly because the investigators conducted their investigations and kept track in their jobs books. PULSE did not always reflect the current status of those investigations. That was the issue that Dr. Singh and the analysts were bringing to us, namely, there was an inconsistency between what was recorded on PULSE and-----
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I am trying to get my head around something. When the analysts flagged their concerns and the review group, team or whatever it was was set up in January 2017, who was on that? Both of the witnesses have said that it was a joint team.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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A chief superintendent, a sergeant, a garda and two analysts.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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They did not all sit down and review the files. Only the Garda end examined the files.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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No. I am trying to get my head around something. When the report went to the Policing Authority, it did not come from the joint group that was convened. It only came from the Garda element of that group.
Mr. Michael Finn:
This was our difficulty, in that we should have reverted to Dr. Singh and asked him whether he was happy to sign off on it. That was what was unearthed at our Policing Authority meeting. When we subsequently met the Policing Authority, it asked us to sit down with the analysts and achieve consistency in how we classified these crimes. We sat down together and, as Dr. Singh articulated, we agreed a process on how to do that. In addition, the Policing Authority asked us to undertake a peer review, which we are in the process of doing.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Can Mr. Finn give us an assurance that all the homicides were appropriately investigated to article 2 compliance levels and that all the files were examined fully as opposed to the officers who conducted the original investigations simply being inquired with? Has it involved more than that?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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That is ongoing.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The Garda has not done that yet, so.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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It was not done in the earlier phase, but it is being done now.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Mr. Finn cannot give us an assurance-----
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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-----until that has been done.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The Policing Authority released a statement this month expressing its frustration with the length of time taken to deal with the issue of homicide statistics. Regarding classifications, it also asked the Garda to provide an explanation as to why there were discrepancies between some of the material received by the authority on 26 April and the report on 21 September. Has the Garda given the Policing Authority an explanation for those discrepancies or will that matter be addressed at their meeting? Where does that situation stand?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Who is the lead garda when liaising with the Policing Authority on this matter? Is it the Commissioner?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Taking responsibility for this issue is a hands-on role. Has the Commissioner taken ownership? I am conscious that, due to the tragic circumstances of today, not everyone could be present in the delegation to contribute, but who is the main person responsible for this issue and at what level? Is it the Commissioner, Mr. Finn or one of the deputy commissioners?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Who among senior management in An Garda Síochána is responsible for the homicide statistic classification issue?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I know.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I am just trying to get a sense of what level has responsibility for this hands-on role. Deputy Commissioner Twomey is the hands-on link.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I know that there is a team. I thank the delegation.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will have two further contributions, those being Deputies Wallace and Chambers.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the delegates for their attendance. I wish to express my condolences to the family of and all belonging to the garda.
Many of the issues in question have been raised by various members. Mr. Finn stated that data were important and the Garda needed to record them properly, but the PULSE system seems to be unfit for purpose. As far back as January 2015, a chief inspector, Mr. Robert Olson, said that the system was not fit for purpose, that it was 1990s technology and that it was time to be retired. The special rapporteur for children, Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, also stated that it was not fit for purpose from a child protection point of view.
A couple of weeks ago in the Dáil, I raised with the Taoiseach some issues surrounding Accenture, which designed the PULSE system. Accenture has received a great deal of money for Garda work and procurement guidelines have been ignored. When it was put to Mr. Michael Culhane, head of finance in the Garda Síochána, that 73 contracts in 2015 with a value of more than €11 million had breached procurement guidelines, he said that he accepted that 73 was high but that the Garda was actively addressing all those issues and that it Garda was working with its colleagues in the Office of Government Procurement to that end. In 2016, 94 contracts breached guidelines.
In respect of the issues to which Deputy Clare Daly alluded, are things getting any better? I tabled a parliamentary question about Accenture and this matter in June of last year. It took six months to get the information back. Perhaps the assistant commissioner might be able to clarify something. I was told that Accenture was paid more than €16.5 million in 2016 but the internal audit published in August 2017, which I also raised in the Dáil, said that Accenture was paid €26.5 million in 2016 - some €10 million more. Perhaps there is a technical reason for that in respect of how payments are made. Can the assistant commissioner shed any light on that issue?
Mr. Michael Finn:
I cannot. I did not bring any material in respect of Accenture or the contracts. We were here on another date and information on those contracts and payments made to Accenture was provided, but I have not brought anything with me today. Perhaps I can help the committee by providing supplementary information later.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is important to note that we did not signal that this issue would be addressed in the course of today's engagement. This meeting was to be particular and specific in respect of the homicide review. In deference to the delegation, it would not necessarily have that information immediately to hand.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I am sorry. I did not realise that. However, we indicated at our previous meeting that we wanted to touch on that subject.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is an issue to be addressed at a more substantive meeting with a wider agenda that we hope to have shortly.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay. My next question is for Dr. Singh. He has two deputies and these two ladies have now made protected disclosures-----
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am not conscious of the protected disclosure which Deputy Wallace has referenced. We have already addressed this matter privately and I have established that neither the Chair nor any other Member has received a dossier that would in any way equate to what the Deputy has referenced. We are not able to say one way or the other.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is right.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I am not going to identify the two individuals involved. I just wanted to ask Dr. Singh whether these two people refused to sign off on statistics he wanted them to sign off on. Is that not true?
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We were told that the two individuals concerned were refusing to sign off on statistics Dr. Singh wanted them to sign off on. Is that true or false?
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I understand that we are not going to make any progress on this matter. Many discrepancies have been highlighted by different Deputies. Garda management has had trouble getting breath test figures, juvenile crime statistics and checkpoint numbers correct. Now we cannot get the homicide figures right. Does the assistant commissioner not accept that there has been serious failure at management level in the Garda? We have been very heavily criticised for it, but Deputy Clare Daly and I have been saying for a long time that the problems in how we deliver policing are unlikely to improve dramatically until a different hierarchy is in place. The current hierarchy has proved itself unfit for purpose in several areas. Does the assistant commissioner think that we are exaggerating when we say that having a police force with which the Irish people will be 100% happy and getting to a new place in terms of how we do policing cannot be done with the existing hierarchy? Does he think it can be done?
Mr. Michael Finn:
The Deputy already touched on an issue that is probably at the root of our problems. We have an IT system that is 20 years old and not fit for purpose. It is at the root of many of the issues we are discussing in respect of data, the classification of homicides, how breath tests are recorded and so on. Technology has moved on massively in 20 years. Last week, I read in the Government's development plan for the future that one of the areas in which significant amounts of money will be invested is a new IT system for An Garda Síochána. We need that, but we cannot deliver it overnight. Even if the Government was to give us all the money we needed tomorrow morning it would take time to deliver it. We have to get from where we are right now to the point when that new system will kick into place. We are tweaking something which is 20 years old and which was not designed for what we have achieved with it. It is causing us difficulties and challenges. We have to do our best with what we have in order to make it fit and to get us through until that new era when that money and new IT project will be delivered.
In my opinion, in which I may be a bit biased, changing management will not solve all those problems overnight. That is my opinion. As I said, perhaps I am biased. The Deputy already touched on our IT system having caused us massive problems in recent times. It is not fit for purpose. We know that. That has been articulated by the inspectorate and others. However, we have to live with it until such time as that new project is delivered. I am delighted to see that funding is being made available because we all share the view that we need a new IT system in order to be able to give the type of information that Dr. Singh needs to inform our policing plans and the way in which we patrol and look after the victims of crime. All of those things are important. Changing the management today will not solve all those problems.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We are talking about the IT system. When I first raised that matter the witnesses did not want me to talk about it. Given that the assistant commissioner is now admitting that there are serious problems with the IT system, is there any way to explain why we have been giving work to Accenture and Vantage Resources without even getting them to tender for it? Some of the contracts are being paid in advance. Some of them date back to 2009. Some people working for the companies supplying the IT services about which the assistant commissioner is complaining do not even have to clock in. It is costing a fortune. Accenture has been paid more than €90 million over these few years.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Vantage Resources has been paid more than €28 million. Who is responsible for the poor management of the manner in which An Garda Síochána has been sourcing IT? The assistant commissioner admits that the system is not fit for purpose yet these companies are making a fortune out of An Garda Síochána in a very shoddy way without providing a good service and without being monitored.
Mr. Michael Finn:
I cannot comment specifically on any particular contract or say who is being paid what. I can tell the Deputy that a lot of work is being done, much of it relating to IT, in respect of our modernisation and renewal programme. In terms of new systems, we have a new investigation management system which will be in place by the end of this year. It is based on the current PULSE architecture. It will be able to work with our new system when it is in place. Putting all that together is expensive and involves a lot of work. In fairness to the Government, it has given us the funding to start off that modernisation and renewal programme in order that, when we get our new system, the new systems which we are developing right now or which have developed in the last two or three years will be able to fit into it and will not be a waste of money. I mentioned one new system introduced in 2015 which helps us track our incidents to make sure that every one is followed up on. I did not bring any specific information in respect of who gets what.
A new contract is being worked on. My colleague, the executive director, has mentioned he is currently working with the Office of Government Procurement. Any new tenders going out will be in accordance with the guidelines and will in the EU Journal, etc.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the members of An Garda Síochána for their presence. I send my sympathies to the family of Detective Superintendent Colin Fox. His funeral is this morning. It is a difficult time for people in the force. He served in my area of Blanchardstown in the K district and did distinguished work. It is important we recognise that.
I will start with the working group established under a chief superintendent and included senior staff from the Garda analysis service. How many people were members of that group and what were their names?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Who were the members of the working group?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Who drafted the report and who made the decision to proceed with it to the Policing Authority, without the full consultation of the working group? Was the report given to the Policing Authority framed as being under the auspices of the working group, without the working group having fully authorised it? Or how was it presented to the Policing Authority?
Mr. Michael Finn:
My recollection of it, and I think I was at that meeting with Dr. Singh, was that report gave the status of the investigative side of the 41 cases as opposed to the classification issues raised by Dr. Singh and his people. I am framing the response at the time. The issues were raised by the analysts. The operational people looked at the investigations to see if the 41 incidents were investigated. That was the updated report delivered to the Policing Authority and that was the context it was framed in.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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That was in April 2017?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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In response to questions from Deputy O'Callaghan, Dr. Singh said he looked for that report for a number of weeks. How many attempts did he make to get that report?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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What was the response to the initial attempt?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Was there no response to the initial attempt?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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What did Dr. Singh say when that occurred? What was his response at meetings?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Who did Dr. Singh ask?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Did Dr. Singh ask him for that report at that time?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. When did Dr. Singh ask for the report again?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Was that June?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Did Dr. Singh receive it that morning?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Was Dr. Singh asked any questions at the Policing Authority regarding the contents of the report?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Singh may have been asked questions regarding a report he had not seen.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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When did Dr. Singh see the report after that meeting in April?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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When Dr. Singh received the report, did he agree with the contents?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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What did Dr. Singh do then?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Was correspondence exchanged in the period after that?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
There was. I would have to go through my records on this one. The aim was to try to get some resolution on the classifications. I was keen we would get some resolution on the classifications, so we tried to bring the review group back together again to try to move this along. My colleagues from the analysis service felt more time was required to redo or go through again some of these elements of it. We had some debate on this. They felt more time was required. I would have liked to have had it done quicker but in the end we went with a bit more time.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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In April 2017, did Dr. Singh get a sense that his part of the working group was represented at the discussion at the Policing Authority? Did he get a sense that the work he had done in the period prior to that had been represented in the context of what was presented there?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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If he was not, what was he? When did Dr. Singh feel his work had been represented in his further engagements with the Policing Authority?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Singh mentioned the Garda analysis service unit. How many people work in that unit?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Fifty people. Three of those were party to that working group.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that two, including Dr. Singh?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Singh was not represented at the working group. Was there communication from the working group members whom he had authority over? What was their communication with Dr. Singh?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
We had verbal communications on this at our catch-up meetings with the management team, one of whom was part of the review group. Once work had started up, the beginnings of some frustration was expressed.
I think they felt that some of their views, perhaps, were not being taken on board or as seriously as they should be.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Did Dr. Singh reflect those concerns to anybody?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
I checked what time I should intervene. I was always clear and considered whether there was a point or a time that I should intervene, and if I was asked to intervene I would do so. I do not think that I was ever asked to intervene during the process. I recollect saying to the members of my staff that if they wanted me to step in that I would step in.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Am I correct in saying that they expressed their frustration but Dr. Singh did not intervene and he was not requested to intervene?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Mr. Finn that PULSE in general is at the root of many problems. I know our discussions are on data, key performance indicators, KPIs, and multiple other crime statistics and elements. When will the witnesses be confident that the CSO can properly verify the data that is produced? That is a confidence issue for data collection generally. Perhaps Dr. Singh can answer my question too. When does Dr. Singh feel the data his unit produces will be verifiable by the CSO? When it is, we can move on from what has been two years of repeated issues with data collection or controversies. It is important that we see a timeline or a proposed process the witnesses can stand over in the context of when verification can be stood over and there is no repeat of this controversy.
Mr. Michael Finn:
I do not want to speak for the CSO, to be fair to it. Certainly when we have our six-month review completed, and we estimate that the review will take six months, and the issues that have arisen or may arise are resolved, the CSO will then be in a position to sit down with us and we can see if it is happy that all of the issues that have surfaced have been dealt with.
We have done a lot of work with the CSO. We have regular meetings with the CSO so that issues relating to data, whether it is homicides, domestic abuse or whatever, can be surfaced and dealt with to give the CSO reassurances. We are working very closely with the CSO. As I mentioned earlier, the CSO staff come to our call centre in Castlebar to educate our people about the need for good quality data, which enables them to stand over their statistics not just in this country but in Europe. Our reputation is at stake, in that respect. The CSO has been very helpful whether, it is going to the Garda College and talking to our students with Dr. Singh, or going to our call centres in the Garda Information Services Centre, GISC. We understand, as I mentioned earlier, that there is probably a cultural issue that we need to address within the Garda Síochána to make sure we treat data with the respect they deserve and understand the bigger picture, which was highlighted in the Crowe Horwath report. I mean that we understand it does not just mean filling out something on the side of the road but there must a greater realisation that what we do has an impact on people's lives and on the quality of the service we give to victims of crime or the Road Safety Authority. That cultural change has to take place and it is not just about changing the systems. It is about educating the people too, within the organisation, on the need to treat these data seriously. That is a wider piece of work.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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When does Mr. Finn expect the data will be authorised and properly approved by the CSO?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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When does Mr. Finn expect the clawback from 2003 onwards to be completed?
Mr. Michael Finn:
As Dr. Singh has mentioned, our resources are limited in terms of having people with the knowledge and expertise to interpret or interrogate the data from the Office of the State Pathologist. There is a capacity issue but in the meantime, we are doing other work that will help speed up the entire process.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to a case in which a person was assaulted and injured, so it was an assault causing harm for which a criminal conviction was secured. Then, within three years, he or she passed away due to head injuries secondary to the assault or suffered a stroke or something. What is the reclassification process if someone has already been convicted of a crime but there is a subsequent consequence under the Criminal Justice Acts? If the crime has subsequently caused the death of the person, how is that information converted in the context of an investigation? Will subsequent criminal proceedings take place?
Mr. Brian Sutton:
In the original investigation, it would be investigated in relation to the assault first. Let us say somebody was prosecuted for the assault and the injured party subsequently passed away after the conviction, then a separate file would be produced for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions with medical evidence to be able to prove that the assault was the cause of death. Even though initially it was a section 3 or section 4 assault for which the perpetrator was convicted, one can bounce it on then and make a recommendation for a charge of manslaughter, a homicide or a murder.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Garda Síochána rely on the medical evidence in that case?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Garda Síochána not only reply on the medical evidence but the medical presentation of the subsequent facts?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Does that happen properly at present? Obviously the Garda Síochána can only be accountable for the information that it receives. Is Mr. Sutton confident that the other side is presenting the subsequent facts? Is that another issue, for which the Garda Síochána would not be directly responsible? Is the public health system presenting what it perceives as a pathological consequence of a particular incident that was previously investigated? What is the process in that instance?
Mr. Brian Sutton:
Yes. When we do look for evidence from medical people, casualty people or from doctors, we get great assistance from them. Very often, in some of the cases, we must go outside the jurisdiction for some of the more complex cases involving toxicology or poisoning. It is a key part of the file that we put together, as the investigation, and then we make recommendations to the Director of Public Prosecutions for whatever the charge may be.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Do medical people etc. have a reporting obligation under any criminal code?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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If the Garda Síochána is in a vacuum of information or if it stands still in the context of information it has previously received and something subsequently happens that person, unless the Garda Síochána is given the follow-through of information, how can the Garda be expected to upgrade a particular crime for what has happened medically? I am not sure whether the witnesses think there should be an obligation, not on the Garda Síochána but on the flipside such as the public health system, whereby if people there believe a previous incident was the cause of a changed pathological event, they then should have a mandatory reporting mechanism back to the Garda Síochána.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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We could do with more clarity in that area.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to make a small change in the indications. We are moving towards the conclusion of our meeting. Deputy O'Callaghan wanted to come back in briefly but Deputy Colm Brophy has not yet spoken. I propose that he be allowed to speak first and then I will revert to Deputy O'Callaghan. Is that agreed?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I will be brief as well, Chair. I express my sympathies to the Fox family and the members of An Garda Síochána on the death of Detective Superintendent Colm Fox.
There is a limited amount I am going to go into here because a lot has been gone through, in some very good detail, by my colleagues. Some of what I have to say are just observations, having listened to the debate today. I must stress that my following observation gives me absolutely no pleasure.
Mr. Finn's concluding remarks of his opening statement reads:
I fully accept Chair that the review process could have been quicker. ...
Given the seriousness of the crimes ...
Any issues identified ...
In conclusion Chair ...
I can assure you Chair that An Garda Síochána has taken this matter very seriously and will continue to do so.
That could almost be said on every occasion. Mr. Finn could lift that text as a block and drop it into almost every opening remarks An Garda Síochána has had to make to this committee since Mr. Finn began to appear before it in the time I have been a member of it. That speaks volumes as to how disappointing it is in terms of where we are at. There have been so many incidents, questions and investigations all following a very similar pattern that it takes longer, it takes time, there is a great seriousness to the matter and that they cannot supply us with the information. It says something about the whole process in which we as a committee are having to engage in dealing with some issues.
I do not want to be flippant about this, and "flippant might be the wrong word to use, but I have a problem with the 20-year old IT system. What part of the 20-year old IT system told senior management in An Garda Síochána not to consult Dr. Singh regarding the report? Which bit of the IT system did that?
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Finn did a very good job of blaming an IT system earlier.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Somebody made a decision and I do not believe it was an IT system. Somebody in management made a decision.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I know but somebody a decision and since it was not the IT system, I wonder who made the decision to exclude in that respect?
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I will ask Dr. Singh that question but I am asking Mr. Finn does he know who made that decision?
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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If it was not Mr. Finn, does he know at what level a decision like that one would be made to exclude in that respect?
Mr. Michael Finn:
I do not know if a deliberate effort was made to exclude, say, Dr. Singh in regard to it. If we were to separate the investigators from the analysts, the investigators did their piece of work in regard to giving reassurance that yes an investigation was carried out into each of the 41 homicides. That was probably the initial piece of work that was done, and that was responded to the Policing Authority in April and an assurance was given. We are happy that an investigation was carried out in regard to each of those 41 homicides, that they went through either the courts system or the coroner's system, or that some of them were currently still live investigations. That was the reassurance given, and the context in which that reassurance was given to the Policing Authority. There were issues in that. If the analysts had raised this issue in regard to data quality, it would have been prudent that we would have gone back to the analysts to ask if they were happy that we had addressed their issues. In hindsight, looking back, that is where we should have done it differently in my opinion.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but somebody made that decision and Mr. Finn does not know who it was.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Dr. Singh asked for the report on two occasions prior to the original meeting with the Policing Authority, namely, just beforehand and approximately a week and a half beforehand. Am I correct in understanding that from what he said?
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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In asking for that information, was Dr. Singh effectively flagging up to people that he wanted an input into the report? He had people on the working group, did he not, so he was effectively involved in a process in making an input? Unless I am being completely illogical, it seems that the process of Dr. Singh asking for the report was to make sure that he could have an input into it. He asked for the report and therefore wanted to have an input into it before the meeting with the Policing Authority, would that be correct?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
I would say two things. First, there is a joint review team, as far as I was concerned. It was important that all members of that review team had the opportunity to look at the final report and say " Yes, we are confident. We are happy. This actually represents our joint views." Second, part of the reason I felt I needed to write arose at the Policing Authority meeting when the suggestion was made that this had been signed off or had been agreed with the analysis service. At that point I was thinking I have neither seen it nor agreed it.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Dr. Singh asked for the report and was not given it, therefore, does he know who refused to give it to him? Somebody made a decision to refuse to give him the report. Who was the person?
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Dr. Singh asked for it twice, did he not?
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. After the meeting was over and Dr. Singh had made his views clear, did anybody in Garda management come to Dr. Singh at the end of that day and apologise to him or say that he should have received that report and they regretted he did not receive it? I am fascinated to know why, even at that point, it took a week and a half - I am correct on that, as that is what Dr. Singh said-----
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Why was it not possible in Dr. Singh's opinion for him to be handed that report - I am sure it was available electronically and could have been sent in an email or by the process of even a hard copy - by the end of that working day?
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Who would have been able to make the decision to hand Dr. Singh a hard copy of the report by the end of that day?
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Thank you, Dr. Singh.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Deputies Jim O'Callaghan and Mick Wallace have indicated they wish to speak. I want to indicate to both of them that I have a few brief questions. I am good in this respect and not like all the other Chairman who steal the first opportunity to ask questions.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Chairman wish to go first?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No. I am more than happy to speak after the two Deputies have spoken.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I want to be straight with our guests. My concern, and I believe it is one shared by other members of the committee, is that there was a deliberate attempt to exclude the analysis section of the working group in the lead up to the meeting with the Policing Authority in April 2017. I also have a concern that there was a deliberate attempt to push through the report that was referred to at the meeting of the Policing Authority in April 2017 in the hope that this would be a line drawn in the sand under the homicide review. At its worst, I have a concern that there was an attempt to hoodwink the Policing Authority at the meeting of April 2017. I wish to ask Dr. Singh two questions in respect of this. We know from what he has said that there were two analysts on the working group. What did they say to him in respect of their response to the fact that this report was being produced without them being involved in it?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Was any pressure brought to bear on Dr. Singh to agree to, and not to question, the report that was referred to in the policing committee meeting of April 2017?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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If there was pressure brought to bear on Dr. Singh, I presume he would have been aware of it. Would he?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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There was no pressure brought to bear on Dr. Singh to say he was happy with the April 2017 report.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I know but were any senior members of Garda management saying to him: "Just sign off on it"?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Does Dr. Singh believe there was a deliberate policy to exclude the civilian analysis section from the report that was referred to at the Policing Authority meeting of April 2017?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Thank you, Dr. Singh.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Wallace and following his contribution I want to make a few points and then I will bring in Deputy Ó Laoghaire and Deputy Clare Daly, who have both indicated since I said earlier that I wish to put a few questions to our guests.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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My questions relate to that posed by Deputy O'Callaghan. Given what Dr. Singh has told us, are we right in thinking that he was on the same wavelength and in agreement with his analysis team?
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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That is what I wanted to hear.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There are a number of points I would like to make. I concur with Deputy Brophy. It is important to say that it gives us no satisfaction at all to find ourselves in repeat engagements regarding matters such as this. Our primary role is as legislators and we have a backlog of legislation that no other committee has to contend with, so it is hugely frustrating. If An Garda Síochána feels this, it is not unique. I can say that I found it incredible.
On the PULSE system not being fit for purpose, we have had a number of engagements regarding PULSE, particularly with regard to the false breath test recording. That was very serious given what the whole business of breath testing is about. Lives are at stake. Here we are dealing with a situation relating to homicides - murders - being misrecorded or not being updated in terms of the detail recorded on the PULSE system. I have no doubt that there is a very serious level of public disquiet about all of this. Public confidence has been seriously impacted upon. I repeat what I have said previously, namely, that public confidence in our policing service - An Garda Síochána - is imperative to ensure that Mr. Finn and his colleagues can do the best job possible. We are here in the hope of being able to help in some regard to reach that point. Mr. Finn's point about the PULSE system not being fit for purpose may very well be true but, as Deputy Brophy highlighted and I am now reiterating, it was not the PULSE system that activated 1 million plus false recordings. One changes the system but it is the practice and the people that are at issue. The regularity of false recording, misrecording and not updating suggests a cavalier attitude within the service to the PULSE system. It suggests a less than serious acceptance of the important role and function it can play. Otherwise, why in heaven's name would members of An Garda Síochána participate in false recording, misrecording and not updating records? I cannot think of any other comparable situation where that would be tolerated and accepted. I find it incredible. Yes, it is great to see a new system introduced. I am not going to ask Mr. Finn to respond to this one question. I will put a couple. What is An Garda Síochána doing to arrest this attitude and behaviour within the force? That must happen in tandem with any equipment updating.
Mr. Finn referred to the 41 cases. I welcome what was said but I have a question to pose. Mr. Finn indicated that these cases were investigated. I accept that they were investigated but would a particular classification alter the course of the investigation employed? I do not for a moment suggest any lack of thoroughness. An investigation could be because these are the steps one takes. Chief Superintendent Sutton outlined the different steps that can present. Does a situation arise where because of something being mis-recorded or not being updated, a certain level of investigation and attention to detail were not employed? How would Mr. Finn respond to each of those points?
Mr. Michael Finn:
I shall deal with the Chairman's last question first. Even this morning, I was talking to one of my colleagues about an investigation into a death. Significant work was done pursuing that investigation involving following every line of inquiry. What if that investigation turns out to be a homicide or an accidental death? We will not know until we conclude that process, which is ongoing. From my experience of working as an operational chief superintendent and superintendent, every one of the investigations in which I was involved was done thoroughly and every line of inquiry was pursued. Could I honestly say that the PULSE incident reflected every one of those? That has been our weakness. PULSE started out as a system for recording crimes. Twenty years later, we have asked it to be something totally different in terms of being a tool to record everything we do. Given the way technology has evolved, PULSE is outdated. We are talking about technology from a different era. That does not mean that our investigations were not done. I would be 100% confident that we do investigate every one of those incidents. Every one with which I was involved was thoroughly investigated. Did the PULSE incident reflect the final status of that investigation? I think that is where we have let ourselves down in terms of our data and what we recorded on PULSE. Just because something starts out as an assault does not mean it will not end up in the courts as murder. Did we always go back and update the incident? That is where we let ourselves down and that is where we need to change the culture. The Chairman is right. I have gone out and spoken to every chief superintendent and superintendent across the country regarding data, its importance and how it is impacting negatively in terms of breath tests when we did not do them right and record them accurately. The same is true of homicides. I have gone out and spoken to every chief superintendent and superintendent across the country saying that we must do it right. Public confidence is eroded when we do not do it right. Today is an example with regard to homicides. I can assure members that the investigations were done and for each of the 41 investigations we are discussing, the operational end of them was done. Yes, the Policing Authority would like us to come back and give it a belt-and-braces reassurance that they were done in a way that was compliant with Article 2. Can it come out and say with confidence that it has reviewed every one of those investigations and that they were done properly? That is what we are going to do because the public and the Policing Authority demand it. I hope that when we return in six months' time, the committee will confident enough to say that it is happy we have carried out that investigation and have put this to bed in terms of any issues regarding the quality of our data.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. Finn to take on board the point I made regarding the disposition of members of An Garda Síochána regarding the PULSE system. However, outdated the system might be, it is hugely important that the people who operate it also appreciate its worth and adhere to what is required of them. This has not been the case. It has been either misused or abused or members failed to employ it as they should. This is not an exaggeration. I do not expect any dispute with Mr. Finn over what I have just said.
Deputy Jack Chambers asked about the composition of the working group. Will Mr. Finn name the members of the working group? Who is the chief superintendent? Mr. Finn indicated-----
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is Chief Superintendent Sutton one of those?
Mr. Michael Finn:
If the Chairman is referring back to the working group, which started off in January 2017, he was not one of those. Garda Chief Superintendent Nyland, Garda Superintendent O'Donnell, Garda Sergeant Scott and Garda Goodwin, as well as two of Dr. Singh's people, were the six that made up group.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who were the Garda analysis service representatives?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not doubt from Dr. Singh's responses that he represents a highly efficient and conscientious team. Is it a civilian team or are there ranked members of the Garda force in it?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Finn said we work with the CSO. Who actually works with the CSO? Is it Dr. Singh's team or is it ranked officers of the Garda Síochána separate from Dr. Singh's team?
Mr. Michael Finn:
We work with the CSO at a number of levels. People from our IT department will make data transfers to the CSO regularly. Where there are IT issues, it will be resolved at that level.
On the question of giving the CSO any additional information, there is a group at senior level - I was on it with Dr. Singh - which would work with the CSO if it was looking for some additional information or data fields or had queries about data given to it. The CSO is independent in what it does. Any interaction we would have with it would be in the context of facilitating it and giving it additional information or data.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is a serious matter when the CSO refuses to accept Garda data on homicide statistics. For families who lost loved ones in such circumstances, it is bound to have caused some concern and, perhaps for others, some distress. The review of the period 2013 to 2015 identified 41 cases. Now, however, the period from 2003 to 2017 is to be reviewed. That is a considerable body of work and it will take five or six months to respond. Is there any way of dealing with it more speedily? I know there is a further outworking on cases identified. Initially, the process of establishing the statistics would bring us out of this maelstrom, first and foremost, and then there is other work to be done subsequently.
Is there any way this can be expedited? Is there an understanding of how important it is to have the CSO situation resolved? I know that, next week, Garda management must meet the Policing Authority to discuss this issue. A public engagement such as this will not reimbue confidence among the wider public. This matter needs to be addressed substantively and speedily. Is there anything Garda management can do to help reach that point?
Mr. Michael Finn:
We will not have to wait for six months to get all of that information. It can be done in blocks on a year-by-year basis. As we get information from the State Pathologist, it can then be fed back to the chief superintendent and his team to ensure they can be working on that aspect of it.
The mistake we made in the past was to rush it and do it piecemeal. We then ended up having to do parts of it again. If we are to learn a lesson from the past, we need to integrate and verify the information in the data fields. Then we can come back with the reassurance the material is correct. The mistake we made last year was we did it piecemeal and not in a wholesome way.
We will certainly put in whatever resources we need. The only restriction will be the number of people in the analysis service who have the knowledge to integrate the State Pathologist's database. We only have one person with the knowledge and experience to do that for us. That is the stumbling block.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have said Dr. Singh and his staff are clearly highly efficient and conscientious. His responses today have indicated that. Does he believe the responses he has given to the committee accurately reflect the views of his staff, specifically those representatives of the analysis service he identified earlier as members of the working group? Is he confident that what he has outlined would reflect their views and the responses they would have given if they were in his place?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Singh shared his experience of the separateness and the failure to engage with the representatives in the working group on critical decisions in moving a report forward. He also spoke about the lack of co-operation that he would have quite rightly expected when he sought a copy of the said report. As a civilian member of the Garda Síochána or from the experience of any others working in his service, is there a them-and-us attitude in An Garda Síochána between ranked members and civilian staff?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
Like any large organisation, An Garda Síochána is not a coherent whole. Gardaí will argue with each other, civilians will argue with each other and civilians and gardaí will argue with each other. However, the people who work in my service have had an excellent working relationship with operational officers in terms of bringing forward cases, investigations and developing operational work. Externally, people have pointed to the Garda Síochána analysis service as a great example of civilianisation because it provides a unique function in supporting operational gardaí like Colm Fox, whose funeral I would have loved to have been at today.
We have a very good connection with the operational side.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Dr. Singh believe that what he has said on finding information and bringing it to the attention of operational officers is the experience of all staff in his service and also that of staff in other civilianised sections of An Garda Síochána? Is that experience universal in the context of bringing information to the attention of the Garda? Is such information taken on board, acted upon and respected?
Dr. Gurchand Singh:
In terms of the particular review, there were robust discussions and debates. As part of that process, my members of staff became very frustrated. If the Chairman is asking whether it reflects the generality, I will come back to my earlier point that I see variance. We have great working relationships with investigators, and we have done great work to support the development of national operations, but there are variations in this. Whether it is unique to civilian status, I do not know.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The variations might be worth taking note of by Mr. Finn.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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To some extent, the failure to provide the report to Dr. Singh before it was presented to the Policing Authority has been presented as an unfortunate error, as an issue of not great consequence and as one of those things that happens but from which we have moved on because the issues have been rectified. I do not know whether it is as simple as that , to be perfectly honest. Deputy O’Callaghan referred to the worst-case scenario, namely, that there was a deliberate attempt not to give the Policing Authority the full impression. This may not be the case. However, the fact Dr. Singh was not given this report is of great seriousness, particularly in the context of what we are discussing. We are discussing cases of the greatest seriousness that include the loss of life. The analysis service had knowledge of this for months in advance of the meeting and it flagged its interest in this on a number of occasions before the meeting. In this context, it is very difficult to imagine how a decision could have been reached or how the report was not provided to Dr. Singh for sign-off, particularly in light of its significance and the inevitable considerable public commentary at the Policing Authority meeting and in the aftermath thereof. I find that difficult to credit.
My question relates to the fact the Garda Inspectorate report on changing policing in Ireland recommended putting in place the position of a director of data quality. Am I correct in stating this has not yet been done?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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When was it advertised?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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With regard to the working group established on foot of the Policing Authority's work, I know Assistant Commissioner Finn has said he is absolutely sure that all of the investigations have been done properly but I put it to him that nobody else is sure of this. The Policing Authority is not sure and neither are we. This is partly why the review is taking place. In the context of the review, I want to be absolutely sure that, in the context of the working group and the review of the misclassification of homicides, there will be a review of previous domestic violence incidents on the murdered person's PULSE file and a review of how they were classified.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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If it is a case of domestic violence death, will other incidents of domestic violence in the person's file be analysed, and will how they were dealt with and classified be examined as part of that review?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Is that a "Yes"? I assume that if there were any concerns, they would be referred. Does it mean the answer to my question is "Yes" and that if a domestic violence murder is being reviewed all PULSE records-----
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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-----relating to other domestic violence incidents on the file will be looked at from the point of view of the classification. The point is to see whether we can identify that perhaps there was a case where a woman ended up being murdered where there had been previous incidents on the file classified in a way in which they should not have been and the warning signs were not noted. Will that be looked at?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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That is grand. I thank Mr. Finn.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is clear enough. On behalf of the committee, I genuinely and sincerely thank Assistant Commissioner Michael Finn, Dr. Gurchand Singh, Assistant Commissioner Orla McPartlin, who had an easy day, and Chief Superintendent Brian Sutton and their colleagues for attending. As Dr. Singh indicated, it has been a difficult day for all of them, particularly those who knew their late colleague. This is a matter in respect of which I hope there will be an early resolution.
I remind members that the select committee will meet tomorrow at 2 p.m. to address two items of legislation.