Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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In our first session this morning, we met representatives of UCC to discuss its financial statements. In this session we will examine Dundalk Institute of Technology's financial statements for 2014 and 2015. From Dundalk Institute of Technology, we are joined by Ms Ann Campbell, interim president, Mr. Peter McGrath, vice president for finance and corporate affairs, Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll, human resources manager, Ms Marie Madigan, financial manager, and Ms Irene McCausland, vice president of strategic planning, communications and development. We are joined by an official from the Department of Education and Skills, Mr. Christy Mannion, and from the Higher Education Authority, Dr. Graham Love.

I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery to make sure all mobile phones are on airplane mode or turned off, not just on silent mode. E-mails coming through can still upset the recording system on silent mode, so it is not enough.

I advise the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence relating to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of that evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make a brief opening comment.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I will keep it brief. The financial statements before the committee in this session relate to Dundalk Institute of Technology's financial year ending on 31 August 2015. I draw the committee's attention to the fact that the universities' end of year is end September. The institutes all have an end of year of 31 August. Dundalk Institute of Technology's total income for the year amounted to €47.4 million. State grant funding totalled €16.3 million, which was approximately one third of the total. Tuition fee income of €18.7 million included fees paid by the State totalling €3.6 million and student contribution income of €10.1 million. Expenditure in the year was €48.7 million. Of this, just under 70% was accounted for by staff costs. A detailed analysis of expenditure is given in note 12 of the accounts. The income and expenditure account indicates that the institute incurred an operating deficit in the year totalling €1.3 million. I point out in my audit report that this is the third successive year in which the institute has incurred a deficit, leaving it with an accumulated deficit at the year end of €3.2 million. The governing body addressed the question of its recurring deficits in note 26 and concluded that it remained appropriate at the date of signing to prepare the financial statements on a going-concern basis. I also point out in my audit report that there was procurement by the institute totalling €1.18 million worth of goods and services under arrangements that had not complied with standard competitive procurement procedures.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I now call Ms Campbell to make her opening statement.

Ms Ann Campbell:

My colleagues and I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation to attend this meeting to discuss issues relating to Dundalk Institute of Technology's financial statements 2014-2015, specifically to address the accumulated deficit, non-compliance with procurement guidelines, and developments at Dundalk Institute of Technology, DkIT, since the publication of these financial statements. We have submitted detailed information to the committee in advance of this meeting on the matters for consideration. Therefore, in my opening statement I will summarise the key points.

To put the accumulated deficit in context, it is important to note the severe cuts in funding to higher education as a result of the recession. At DkIT, HEA funding was reduced by 34% between 2007 and 2012. The institute managed to maintain a break-even financial position until 2012-2013, when an operating deficit of €711,000 occurred. From that point onwards, DkIT was no longer attracting sufficient income to meet its obligations. Funding for apprenticeship blocks, for example, declined by €2.5 million, and funding for nursing education reduced by €1.4 million over the period. Given that staff and support facilities were effectively fixed costs, it was unavoidable that financial challenges would arise. A plan agreed with the HEA in May 2014 to address an underlying deficit from the previous year and return the institute to a balanced budget did not meet its objectives in that period for the reasons outlined in our written submission. However, this plan did provide a foundation for savings in 2015-2016. The institute recorded a net operating deficit in 2014-2015 of €1.314 million, bringing the accumulated deficit to €3.24 million. A new three-year financial plan agreed with the HEA in January 2016 identified savings of €2.074 million over a three-year period from 2015 to 2018 to bring the institute to a balanced budget. The institute is pleased to report its draft accounts show an operating surplus of €127,000 for 2015-16, and current estimates indicate the institute will again break even in 2016-2017.

The institute endeavours to ensure full compliance with procurement procedures and guidelines and is actively working with the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, to ensure that all procurement is in accordance with its model. The general principle is that a competitive process should be carried out for all public contracts. However, urgent and exceptional circumstances may arise which are unforeseen and have not arisen due to any action or inaction on the part of the contractor. Regarding the procurement with supplier B in 2014-2015, such exceptional circumstances did apply, as set out in our written submission. Regarding the other more significant items of non-compliance, DkIT considers that supplier C should not be included in the list of non-compliance as this refers to a student recruitment agency based in Beijing, and given both the nature of the service and the location, a tender process could not be run. Regarding supplier D, the OGP had no framework in place for the service in question. DkIT discussed the matter with the OGP and on its advice extended the contract. The contract with supplier A was extended to provide additional necessary security at short notice, pending the procurement of a new contract.

Over the years, DkIT has delivered learning and teaching, research and engagement within budget and in good value-for-money terms for the State. The institute's accumulated deficit, which arose as a result of deep cuts to its budget, represents 2% of its annual income. As previously outlined, the institute achieved a small surplus in 2015-2016 and forecasts a balanced budget for 31 August of this year. Such savings are achieved at a considerable cost, but the institute is resolute in its determination to return to sustainability so that it can continue to serve its learners and the region.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I offer a very warm welcome to the president and all the other staff of DkIT. As a Deputy representing a Meath constituency, I am acutely aware of the role of DkIT as an institute of technology, its importance to the wider north-east region as an educational campus and its wider importance to the economy, not just of Dundalk, but more widely. Denis Cummins came to Meath County Council when I was a councillor and spoke extensively to our economics department, and there was a liaison between Meath and Louth in that respect. My brother graduated from DkIT this year, so I am acutely aware of the 5,500 students on its campus and the critical role the institute plays and hope its future is bright and very prosperous.

However, ensuring there is a future for DkIT is at the heart of what we are discussing, following on from the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit. Note 26 of the audit calls into question the going concern status of the institute in the medium term by virtue of a depletion of the reserves in line with those suffered during the period 2013-2015.

That would be alarming for the students in Dundalk, Drogheda and Navan - I know that 18% of DkIT's student base is in Meath - and their parents. Ms Campbell noted that a plan had been put in place with the HEA, whose representatives are before us this morning, to stop the haemorrhage. I want to go through those measures and their impact on the college but before we do so, can we address the accumulated deficit? Despite the surplus for 2015-2016 that Ms Campbell referred to, and breaking even for the follow-on period up to the summer of this year, there will still be an accumulated deficit of €3 million come August.

Ms Ann Campbell:

That is true. We have not been able to reduce the accumulated deficit since these accounts were published. The accumulated deficit still stands. Our priority under the plan agreed with the HEA was to return to a balanced budget by 31 August 2018. We have been successful in achieving that. In fact, in the last academic year we had a modest surplus of just over €100,000. I think it was €120,000. Our forecast suggests that we will at least break even this year.

Going back to the Deputy's earlier remarks on the importance of ensuring the future of the industry, I could not agree more. We have to return to sustainability. That has to be done in steps. The first step is to ensure that we operate on a break-even basis and that we grow student numbers through measures that will hopefully at some stage include increased State funding, but also through measures for which we have to be responsible ourselves. In our new strategic plan we are particularly targeting growth in the provision of life-long learning, growth in online provision and ensuring that international student recruitment continues to bring in money for the institute and to grow that area if possible.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I want to talk about that, but before we get there, the first priority of the financial plan, to which Ms Campbell has referred, is getting the college back on an even keel.

Ms Ann Campbell:

Yes.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Campbell seems to be doing that, bringing DkIT to a year-on-year position of breaking even, but come the summer of next year, how is it envisioned that accumulated deficit will be tackled? I am sure Ms Campbell is looking at that simultaneously so that there is no overhanging debt there. How is it planned to deal with that?

Ms Ann Campbell:

The only way we can deal with that is by growing our income. There is no other way to do it. The income has to grow, we have to come back to surplus and we have to hope that over the intermediate term, if not over the short term, we will be able to address that. Increased income is the only way to do it.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Let us look at that. In terms of how costs are cut to try to break even, and to reflect on the impact of the loss of these services provided by the college, as Ms Campbell said, between 2007 and 2012, HEA funding to Dundalk was cut by 34%. The students picked up the tab through increased contribution fees. That is an immediate impact. Then we see the strategy of not replacing identified retiring staff. I think the staff complement is 500. Will Ms Campbell indicate the number of staff shed in recent years? One of the key points identified by the expert working group on higher education was that there cannot be a continuing policy of cutting staff numbers to meet this funding deficit. If anything, it identified the need for the staff complement to increase by many thousands over the next five to six years. That is why I am interested in probing this area and determining where DkIT stands. Will Ms Campbell address, first, the reduction in staff complement over that period of time, and second, the plans to try to increase numbers while simultaneously needing to increase income?

Ms Ann Campbell:

It is very difficult to cut staff costs in an institute of technology because the majority of staff have permanent contracts or contracts of indefinite duration. One of the reasons it takes time to address a deficit is that we can only save on staff costs through retirements. In the current three-year plan, we identified certain posts - not all posts - that we would not replace. These were primarily within areas where there had been a decline in student demand, for example, the number of our students studying engineering has dropped considerably because of the recession. The majority of staff who have not been replaced were in those areas. We have very careful planning in respect of where we can and cannot replace a staff member.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I was going to ask a follow-on question on the review of the school of engineering, because Dundalk always had a very good reputation in that respect. Many secondary school students would have naturally gone to DkIT for that reason. It would be a worrying trend if cuts were to be made to something which has always been regarded as very high quality in the college. That would be extremely worrying. There are other areas of the college where cuts have been implemented. Will Ms Campbell go through some of the other areas where cuts have been made, and which were identified in the report, such as the nursing programmes and so forth?

Ms Ann Campbell:

To make a point about engineering, it was the decrease in student demand that allowed us not to replace staff in that area. We addressed it from the student point of view. We had fewer students. In nursing a cap was placed by the HSE on the number of places available. That really affected our income and there were no staff replacements there. In that particular area we were able to offer continuous professional development, CPD, courses to the HSE in areas where we had a surplus of staff.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Campbell have any future plans to address both of those areas?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We have just completed a strategic plan for the school of engineering. We are fortunate that the apprenticeship blocks are climbing again. This year, for September 2018, we will have 28 blocks, if memory serves, and we foresee that growing over the next number of years because the construction industry is back on its feet again. We have the capacity to deliver on that and we look forward to doing so.

Additionally, the demand for life-long learning provision in engineering has not been strong in the region but we think that there are opportunities to grow that. That is one of the things that we are doing in the strategic plan for the school of engineering. We previously offered level seven programmes in engineering with an optional add-on degree for those students who wished to have an honours degree. We are now reviewing that because the demand from students seems to be to go directly to a level eight degree. We will, this September, be offering level eight degrees in engineering as ab initiodegrees for the first time.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Five or six years ago, the college was trying to pursue an outreach facility and deal with areas where there were no institutes of technology, Meath being a prime example. What has been the impact on that and where does that programme stand?

Ms Ann Campbell:

There are two aspects to that. One is that we have the very successful North East Further and Higher Education Alliance. We work in partnership with the further education providers within the counties of Louth, Meath, Cavan and Monaghan. We have regular meetings throughout the academic year to plan how we might facilitate access to our institute from further education providers. We have also, I am pleased to say, been delivering programmes at the Monaghan institute and at the Cavan institute to facilitate students in those areas who cannot travel in the last two years. We are also delivering an online programme in early childhood studies through our partners in Cavan.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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One of the aspects that Ms Campbell touched on in terms of the financial position in March of this year was that savings were not easily achieved, and consequently the institute has very limited capacity to invest in infrastructure and facilities. That is obviously a concern. It has been a concern identified in the wider reports as well for campuses. I am au faitwith the campus in Dundalk. I would appreciate it if Ms Campbell could elaborate, first, on the constraints that she sees and, second, on the ambitious plan by the college, in conjunction with Louth county board of An Cumann Lúthchleas Gael, to build a 12,000-seat stadium.

As we know, that plan fell through. Did Dundalk Institute of Technology make a financial investment made in planning for the stadium, architectural designs and so forth? The overall cost was to be approximately €6 million, of which DkIT was to provide an outlay of €3 million?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Unless my colleagues can help me, I may have to send the Deputy some of the information on the stadium as I was not president at the time. To my knowledge, the money was not invested in the stadium, which did not materialise. What happened-----

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the point I am making. I asked about investment in planning and pre-planning because the plan was an elaborate one.

Mr. Peter McGrath:

I can answer that. In 2013, we invested in a sports facility close to the college. That facility also included a portion of the land at the time.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the GAA stadium.

Mr. Peter McGrath:

Yes. The plan was to acquire more land adjacent to that on which this GAA stadium was to be built. As far as remember, it only entered into discussions. It never got to a detailed planning or actual investment.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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There were indicative costs of €6 million, of which €3 was to be provided by Dundalk Institute of Technology and €3 million was to be provided by Louth County Board.

Mr. Peter McGrath:

It fell through mainly because of the finance of it. Finance was not available either from ourselves or the GAA at the time. From our point of view, there was not any major investment in getting planning or consultancy work or anything like that done on that particular project.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Dundalk Institute of Technology acquired a sports campus.

Mr. Peter McGrath:

Yes, we invested in a sports campus in 2013, which became available through a receivership. The sports facility is adjacent to the college. Part of our original master plan, which was on hold due to the lack of capital investments at the time, was to provide a new student facility and new sports facility.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Student accommodation was part of that plan.

Mr. Peter McGrath:

Student accommodation was part of that. We built one small piece of accommodation, but that has stalled over the recession as well. We have actually very little accommodation available.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of where the plan stands, Louth GAA has walked away from it. Is there a plan in place to provide a scaled-down facility at the campus?

Ms Ann Campbell:

No, the GAA has walked away so that stadium is not planned any more. However, through the facility that we were able to acquire for a fraction of its value in 2013, we have really good sports facilities for our students, which are shared by the local community as well. In terms of sports facilities, we are fine.

Going back to the Deputy's question on facilities in the classrooms, which is an important question, we were not able to make any improvement in those facilities in 2014-15. However, I am very happy to report that we received a devolved grant from the Higher Education Authority in the autumn which we were able to put in full into updating facilities and, in particular, information technology facilities. There are, however, ongoing issues, particularly in relation to the age of the north block, which is the original 1970s building. There are problems with the fabric of that building. That is a major project which is on the capital prioritisation list. At the moment, unless we get Government funding for that, there is no possibility of renewing that block. That would be for us the priority that really needs addressing.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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RTE also has a role on the campus.

Ms Ann Campbell:

With the studio.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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What arrangement is in place with RTE in terms of working with students and so forth on campus?

Ms Ann Campbell:

RTE has a studio on campus. I do not know the detail of the work it does but I know it interacts with students.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It is obviously a tenant of Dundalk Institute of Technology.

Ms Ann Campbell:

It is a tenant of DkIT and it is in the building where the creative media students are. It is very close to the students so synergies arise from that, but I am afraid I do not have the detail on those synergies for the Deputy.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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On non-compliance on procurement, DkIT contested a number of these. Will Ms Campbell address that point again? I refer to supplier C.

Ms Ann Campbell:

On supplier C, this is a student recruitment agency based in Beijing. It has recruited international students since the mid-2000s for DkIT. It would be very difficult logistically to find an agent in China through public procurement. One of the reasons for that is that business relationships in China are built very much on trust and getting to know people. We have been recruiting in China since 2002. When we went out to that market the first time, we were very unfamiliar with the market. We met a lot of agents that we gave temporary or short-term contracts to and they simply did not deliver students in the numbers that we need them to deliver on. We were very fortunate to meet this company around 2002-03 and we formed very good relations with it. It now recruits students for us. It is our-----

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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DkIT has had a 15-year relationship with this company.

Ms Ann Campbell:

Yes, we have had a 15-year relationship with this company.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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How many students are coming to DkIT as a result of that relationship?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We have about 150 Chinese students but that is only a fraction of the international students. We have somewhere in the region of 480 international students in total, of whom I think about 150 or thereabouts are from China.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General for his opinion on the processes in place in this regard.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

With any individual procurement, there are obviously circumstances around it. Many of the colleges are recruiting students internationally. The question that arises is how one knows if one has had a relationship for 15 years that one is getting the service at the best value. It is normally done by some form of competitive procurement, or at least even if one cannot do that, one can benchmark. We still need to see that there is evidence that this is a good value way of doing it, whether it be in terms of the cost per student recruited or whatever. It needs something to provide assurance.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Given the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General, does Ms Campbell accept the criticism in this regard as valid?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Absolutely, it is valid. We are aware, because of our work in the market over the years, of what the going rate is, if one likes. Generally speaking, the agents charge between 20% and 25% for students recruited into first year. They have different arrangements with different providers all over the world. In some countries, they may also pay a fee for students going into second year. We have been able to hold it at a fee for the first year. Our strategy is that we get students who will stay for the entire degree and the only outlay is in the commission paid to the agent for the students in the first year.

Shane Cassells (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I wish the president and staff of Dundalk Institute of Technology the very best.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Before I call Deputy Cullinane, Ms Campbell referred to international students. Does Dundalk Institute of Technology have many students from Northern Ireland?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We have comparatively few students from Northern Ireland. We take about 48 or 49 annually. It is very sad to say that we have more students from Beijing that we do from Newry.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What is the institute's student population?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Our student population is just over 5,000.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Fewer than 200 students at the institute are from Northern Ireland.

Ms Ann Campbell:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is a very small number.

Ms Ann Campbell:

We do a lot of school liaison in the Newry and Mourne area and we have good relationships with schools in Armagh, Newry and other towns in that area. However, it is quite difficult to persuade Northern Ireland students to come South. Andy Pollak has done a very good study on that and one of the things that struck me from his study is that there are few role models in Northern Ireland. In the case of a student in Armagh, his or her teacher or parents have not studied in the South. That was one of the unexpected barriers identified by Dr. Pollak in that study as well as unfamiliarity with the systems.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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From a financial point of view, what is the position regarding grants for students from Northern Ireland attending the institute? Is there a financial disincentive for them to cross the Border versus the grants available if they stay in the North?

Ms Ann Campbell:

No, to the best of my knowledge, they can carry their grants with them. I think our fees are competitive when compared with-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am referring to grants as opposed to fees.

Ms Ann Campbell:

To the best of my knowledge, and I am not fully aware of this, they get the same grant if they come South.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Brownlee wishes to make a point.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

As EU students, they are entitled to have their free fees allocation as long as they make the same contribution, the student contribution.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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In other words, there is no financial disincentive in terms of grants.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

No, absolutely not. We are very conscious of the implications of Brexit. With the agreement of the Department, we have also guaranteed fees for next year and from 2017-18 onwards as well.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Brownlee for answering the question.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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If I appear a little distracted it is because something is caught in my eye.

My first question is for Ms Campbell. Is DkIT part of a consortium in respect of a technological university application?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Not at the moment.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does DkIT intend to be or is it happy enough with where it is located at the moment?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We are in preliminary discussions with other institutes of technology, but it has not got any further than preliminary discussions.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is that because of concerns about the process or geography? Is that the reason?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Certainly, we have no concerns about the process. Geography played an important part in our original decision not to seek technological university status and to opt instead for an alliance with Dublin City University. This process is still ongoing and we have very good relations with Dublin City University. In recent months, however, we have been approached by a number of other institutes of technology and are involved in very preliminary discussions with them.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is the institute one of those that is in deficit?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Our institute is carrying a deficit of €3.2 million, but we did break even in our operating accounts for last year. We anticipate that we will do so this year also.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms Campbell have the figures with her for core funding the institute would have received from the Department and also for student contributions or fees, the two main sources of income, over a reasonable time period, perhaps from 2008 up to now? I am not seeking data for each year. Has the institute suffered in the past six or seven years?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We have taken a cut of 34% in income.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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A 34% cut in income.

Ms Ann Campbell:

In the State grant.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the primary reason the institute is in deficit?

Ms Ann Campbell:

It is and also the fact that the payroll is the biggest part of our budget. The Comptroller and Auditor General has just told the Deputy that it is 70% of our budget. At one stage, it was 87%.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The institute has got that figure down to 70%.

Ms Ann Campbell:

We have managed to get it down. I believe 70% was the figure given. We have reduced our staff number by 22 in recent years.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of income streams, some research conducted on the institute shows that it seems to be one of the top performing institutes in respect of research and income from it. How does that work in the first instance? May I have examples of income streams into the institute from research?

Ms Ann Campbell:

I think we are in the top four within the sector for research performance. Research income covers the cost of research. There is not a profit, as such, to be made out of research. The income covers the cost. There was a period when research funding was cut and when costs were not met-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Would a profit be made if intellectual property was commercialised?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We have not yet made any profit on intellectual property.

Ms Irene McCausland:

We have two spin-out companies, but-----

Ms Ann Campbell:

Perhaps while my colleague is preparing to talk about that issue, I will give some examples. We have been very fortunate this year with INTERREG funding, with three projects funded recently that will yield €7.2 million over their lifetimes to DkIT. In the context of Brexit, we are anxious that INTERREG projects and funding continue because it is an enormous amount of money. It is not just a matter of the money from research but also of the value in return from the learning and results.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Campbell. I want to focus on the two spin-out companies.

Ms Irene McCausland:

Only recently, in December 2015, we spun out a company. We spun out a second company in June 2016. We did spin out a company earlier, in May 2015, but as we could not finalise the shareholder agreement, it has stopped. We have two spin-out companies.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What is the institute's shareholding in both spin-out companies?

Ms Irene McCausland:

In one the equity is 8% and in the other, 5%.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Who in the institute protects its interests? Who decides what the equity stake of the institute should be?

Ms Irene McCausland:

That is decided through an intellectual property committee. There is a committee within the institute.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To whom does the committee report back?

Ms Irene McCausland:

The recommendations of the committee eventually go to the governing body.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who owns the policies? There is always a policy owner. If there is a policy, who is the owner? It is not the governing body. In terms of management and staff-----

Ms Irene McCausland:

The policy owner comes within my remit, as vice president for strategic planning, communications and development.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms McCausland would not personally have any shareholding or would not be a director.

Ms Irene McCausland:

No.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If she were, would she regard it as a conflict of interest?

Ms Irene McCausland:

We have a clause within our intellectual property policy stating that if there are conflicts of interest, one has to declare them at the outset.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms McCausland has a management role, an oversight role.

Ms Irene McCausland:

We have a technology transfer office that engages in day-to-day management of intellectual property. It also looks at commercialisation opportunities.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If it was the case that Ms McCausland was a shareholder in any of the two companies, because of her role, she would also be the person who would have a governance and a management role.

Ms Irene McCausland:

Yes, but one would declare it at the outset and one would have to step aside from discussions or ongoing negotiations. If one had a conflict of interest, one would need to declare it.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to come back to the issue raised about the JJB facility. There was a tender for equipment.

Ms Ann Campbell:

Correct.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Ms Campbell talk me through it first?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We went through the tender process as normal for the sports equipment to kit out the sports facility. In my submission supplier B was the successful bidder for the lease of the sports equipment to DkIT Sport Limited. However, during the final weeks prior to the commissioning of the equipment, the supplier informed us that he was no longer able to meet his obligations. We wanted to rent the equipment from the supplier, but the supplier wanted to lease the equipment to us as in a hire purchase arrangement. As an institute, we cannot borrow. The problem was that this happened just weeks before the opening. We had a contract with the operator by whom 30 people had been employed to run the facility. As the students had already paid their levy, we had a very short timeframe and had to make a decision because of the imminent planned opening and the undertakings given to the students and the operator to purchase instead of renting part of the equipment. The operator purchased some of the equipment and we purchased the rest.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just to be sure I am clear on the process - I am only concerned about the process - there was a tender process in the hiring of fitness equipment for the newly established facility. That is what the tendering process was for in the first instance.

Ms Ann Campbell:

Yes

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long did the tendering process last?

Ms Marie Madigan:

Three months.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many tenderers were in the game?

Ms Marie Madigan:

Five.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What were the conditions at the time of tendering?

Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll:

The equipment was to be supplied on a rental basis to the institute.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Mr. O'Driscoll be more specific?

Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll:

As the president pointed out, as the institute was not in a position to purchase on a lease basis, it had to rent the equipment. Since the equipment was so specialised, it had to be itemised and put out to public tender.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it correct to say the original tender was for the hire of equipment over a four-year term, with an option to renew for a further 12 months.

Mr. Peter McGrath:

Correct.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When the contract was eventually signed with the winning tenderer, were they the terms of the contract?

Mr. Peter McGrath:

They were.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Therefore, when the contract was signed, it was for a four-year term, with an option to renew for a further 12 months.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is good to see gender representation. Has Ms Ann Campbell been confirmed in her appointment as president?

Ms Ann Campbell:

I am only an interim president. I am not applying for the position on a permanent basis.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For how long has there been an interim presidency?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Since January 2016.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why is there a delay in appointing somebody?

Ms Ann Campbell:

The post was advertised last year and the position was not filled.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why not?

Ms Ann Campbell:

I was not a party to that. It was a Public Appointments Service process and a candidate could not be agreed.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a very difficult position for an institute, particularly one that is so important and is serving a region. It is in trouble with a deficit and it has not appointed a president.

Ms Ann Campbell:

The institute itself does not appoint the president.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know that. However, the institute effectively is without a president, aside from the witness who is an acting president.

Ms Ann Campbell:

I do not believe the words "acting" or "interim" are in the legislation. I am working as the president of the institute.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The witness certainly does that. It is not a personal thing.

Ms Ann Campbell:

I appreciate that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why is there a delay in appointing one? Perhaps the witnesses from the Higher Education Authority might have a view on it.

Dr. Graham Love:

My understanding is that the PAS would have gone to the market to find somebody, but was unable to at that point in time. This happens from time to time with positions. For example, my position with the HEA was previously put out to the market, about a year before I came forward, and it was not filled.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the plan now?

Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll:

The intention is to go back to the market very shortly, hopefully in the coming weeks.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why does the witness say "hopefully"? Is there not a time?

Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll:

We have to wait for approval from the Public Appointments Service.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has that not been forthcoming?

Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll:

There are discussions between the Department of Education and Skills and the Public Appointments Service. Once they are finalised we can go back to the market.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why would there be a delay?

Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll:

We do not have the authority to do it ourselves-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that.

Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll:

We must wait for the Public Appointments Service to agree. There are discussions between the service and the Department of Education and Skills. Once those discussions are finalised we can go back to the market.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why would there be discussions? Why is importance not put on appointing a president to an institute of such importance? What is the discussion about?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can Mr. Mannion answer that?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

As the chief executive of the HEA said, this position was advertised and the interviews were held. The interview board decided not to make an appointment.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When was that?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

Sometime from the middle of August to the end of 2016.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is now March 2017.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

There have been discussions with the Public Appointments Service regarding whether it would run the competition again or whether it would be run under the frameworks for the OGP. That decision is about to be made and, as Mr. O'Driscoll said, the position will be advertised in the coming weeks.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can you explain the difference between the Public Appointments Service filling the position and the OGP process?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

The issue was that the Public Appointments Service felt that the process of running appointments left something to be desired from its point of view, because of the fact that many of the times it ran a competition the outgoing person might have been re-appointed and that there was a great deal of time taken up with that aspect of its work. The service made certain proposals relating to how it might be done differently. We have had discussions with the technological Higher Education Authority and we have come up with a number of proposals in that regard. It will take longer to work that out and to get agreement on that. In the meantime a decision will be made in the next couple of weeks as to how this progresses.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who will have the next recruitment process?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

That is what we are discussing. It will either be the Public Appointments Service - with which we must get agreement for it - or, if not, it can be run through the frameworks of the OGP.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who runs that process? Is it the college?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

Yes, the college would run it on the basis that the OGP gives it permission.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are getting the impression that the Public Appointments Service is probably dissatisfied that some of its time has been wasted going through processes when the people in situ are already getting the positions. If it is not willing to go back into the process automatically, it appears to be expressing dissatisfaction with the process.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

It is running a couple of competitions at present for presidents of various institutes. However, with this one it has decided that we need further discussion before it can agree to make that appointment.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will write directly to the Public Appointments Service to ask it to explain to the committee why it is happy to run some competitions but not happy to run others.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

I do not wish to give the wrong impression of the Public Appointments Service. In fairness, it has agreed to run a couple of competitions that are ongoing at present, but it also said that it needs us to review the process before it would agree to run more of them. That is what we have been doing with the HEA and with the technological Higher Education Authority.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is somebody saying that there is an inability to run all the competitions to fill all the posts that must be filled?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

No, it is not a question of its ability but a question of-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it resources?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

The PAS is saying that it wants to ensure the integrity of the process, so there are a couple of issues it requires to be sorted in advance. Some of those issues have to be negotiated and discussed with the umbrella body for the institute of technology, which we have been doing.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are 14 institutes of technology.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has this arisen with any other institute?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

This particular issue has not arisen.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The witness did not tell us this in his opening statement yesterday. There was no allusion to any difficulty or issue in that regard.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

It is not a difficulty. There are issues that need to be ironed out from the perspective of the Public Appointments Service.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long has there been a vacancy?

Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll:

Since January 2016.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is now March 2017 and the witness did not flag that there was an issue. The witness is telling the committee that just this institute, of the 14 institutes, raised issues.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

It is not this particular institute.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. What is the issue?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

It is just that Dundalk is the next one up for-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that. If it is not Dundalk, what is the issue that has arisen?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

The issue is what I outlined earlier. The PAS feels that it runs a process and sometimes after the process has been run, the same person gets appointed. There is nothing wrong with that. If a person is doing a good job they are entitled to apply for it. The PAS feels that perhaps there is a better way of doing that, and it has put forward some proposals. We are in discussions around that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there correspondence on that which we can see?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

Yes, there is.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry to intervene, but perhaps you will explain what happens on this. When the PAS completes its process does it make a recommendation for one person or is it two or three? What is the normal outcome of its process? Does it go to the board of governors or somebody else?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

The PAS makes an appointment, and that is recommended to the governing authority.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The PAS recommends it?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

It recommends the person to the governing authority of the institute.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the governing authority the authority to accept or reject the appointment?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

It does not happen.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does it have the authority to do that?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not understand. If it makes a decision, how can it say that somebody else could be appointed?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

No, I am saying that the outgoing person applies and comes through the process. The issue is whether there is a better way of doing it in that context. Perhaps there is a better way of making that appointment.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not know what the position is with my time but, honestly, I am a little confused. "Simple" is the word I would use for myself or "clear".

Mr. Christy Mannion:

Simple?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would use the word "simple" towards myself, just to clarify issues. "Simplify" might be the word.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

I will clarify it simply for the Deputy. There is no great mystery attached to this, it is just that the service has a feeling-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let me ask the question. There was an interview process and candidates came forward. How many were there?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

I do not know what the numbers were. It is an independent process.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Public Appointments Services recommends somebody from that interview process.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

Yes, but it did not in this case.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is where the problem is.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

Therefore, to go straight back to the market again to get the same people-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let me stay with this-----

Mr. Christy Mannion:

We left it. There was a valley period left to allow that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let me stay with this for a moment. A number of candidates went forward and the Public Appointments Service did not consider any of them suitable for the job. Is that right?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

Yes. It was the interview panel that was appointed by the Public Appointments Service.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that. It did not consider any of the candidates suitable for the job and did not recommend any of them.

Mr. Christy Mannion:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Arising from that, the PAS felt there were a number of issues which should be examined, one of them being the re-appointment of somebody who was there already. Generally, that could happen. Is it that the PAS would not be happy with that?

Mr. Christy Mannion:

No, it would be quite happy with it. However, it is saying that sometimes people do not apply because there is a process where the outgoing person applies again and leads the field. The PAS goes to the market to advertise and so forth but in the end many people withdraw because it is known that the person who is doing a good job and so forth is probably going to come through the interview process again.

It is to iron out some of the difficulties around that to see if there is a better way of not using their time and not building false hope among people who applied.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not use up my time. Has the Comptroller and Auditor General any comment to make?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is certainly open to the committee to invite the Public Appointments Service in. The service has a Vote so it is within the remit of the committee. The Deputy asked a question around the correspondence to find out what the net points that arise are. I am aware that there are resource constraints on the Public Appointments Service. We have to queue up to get in with the competition. The Public Appointments Service has the option of issuing a licence to a public body to allow it to run its own competition but it must be done through a scheme that is determined by the Public Appointments Service. Obviously, the focus of that is that no undue influence or preferential treatment is given to anybody. It must be an open and fair competition.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My comments about gender representation may have been a bit premature but at least it is here today, which is very good.

Ms Ann Campbell:

I can tell the Deputy that representation on our executive board is equal - four women and four men.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is to be welcomed. Ms Campbell told me that total number of students is 5,000.

Ms Ann Campbell:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the breakdown of that?

Ms Ann Campbell:

In what respect?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Irish and non-Irish.

Ms Ann Campbell:

Non-EU students number about 480, about 100 EU students come through the Erasmus programme number and the rest are Irish with some from Northern Ireland.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are the non-EU students mostly Chinese?

Ms Ann Campbell:

They include Chinese and Indonesian students while a number come from the Middle East. There are smaller numbers from Vietnam, Indonesia and India.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked a previous institution about access. What targets has Dundalk Institute of Technology set for - I hate the word "deprived"- students from disadvantaged areas?

Ms Ann Campbell:

It is very hard to get an actual figure but a majority of our students are first-generation students. A very high proportion of them - I am sorry I cannot give the Deputy the figure - are either first-generation students or come from lower socioeconomic groups.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Dundalk Institute of Technology set a target for students with disabilities?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We have targets. Registered students with a disability made up 4.7%. We had an interim target of 5% for 2015-2016 and exceeded the target because 8.7% of our students have a disability.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In respect of Dundalk Institute of Technology's strategic plan, Ms Campbell's opening statement was very good in respect of setting out but could she address the reduction in apprenticeships and the cap on nursing course places? The cap was set by the Government-----

Ms Ann Campbell:

It was set by the HSE.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How did the HSE set a cap on Dundalk Institute of Technology's nursing course places?

Ms Ann Campbell:

It relates to the number of clinical placements available in hospitals. An institution cannot admit more students to a degree programme than there are clinical placements in hospitals available for them.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is an extraordinary situation where we have no nurses but there is a cap. Does that cap still exist in respect of the-----

Ms Ann Campbell:

That cap still exists.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Dundalk Institute of Technology have the capacity to expand to take-----

Ms Ann Campbell:

We had higher numbers and we still have the staff so the existing capacity-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it a degree course?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So Dundalk Institute of Technology has the capacity to expand and educate more nurses when our health service is starved of nurses?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Yes, but it has to do with clinical placements. A large proportion of a nurse's training is spent in hospitals and it must be supervised and quality assured.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand.

Ms Ann Campbell:

That is where the problem lies.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the situation regarding apprenticeships?

Ms Ann Campbell:

With the recession and the fall in the construction sector, apprenticeships fell through the floor. We had a high of 60 blocks which went to a low of-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What does the term "60 blocks" mean?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Apprentices are trained in four phases so each time they come into higher education, it is known as a block. A block of students come in for phases four and six.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the range of apprentices?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We do carpentry and joinery, plumbing, electrical-----

Mr. Gerald O'Driscoll:

-----and motor mechanic.

Ms Ann Campbell:

And motor mechanic.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Dundalk Institute of Technology have the capacity to take more?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We do.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What would be Dundalk Institute of Technology's overall capacity?

Ms Ann Campbell:

The original capacity of Dundalk Institute of Technology before we redeployed staff was for 60 blocks. We had considerable difficulty when the bottom fell out of that particular market in that we had staff for which there was no voluntary redundancy scheme. We had to retrain and redeploy staff, which took a lot of time to do. We would not like to find ourselves in that position again. When we got to the bottom of the cycle, we really had a problem and we would not like to face that again. We anticipate that we have current capacity for 35 blocks, which we would be very glad to get. We are happy that the HEA has informed us that we will 28 blocks this semester.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In respect of Safe Pass - is that what it is called?

Ms Ann Campbell:

Yes. All the students need that. It is a given that they will get that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who pays for that? Where is Safe Pass done?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We do Safe Pass training in the college. To the best of my knowledge, it is integral to the curriculum.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am coming to the end. I have read all of the documents and have heard from the previous institution and the HEA yesterday. Dundalk Institute of Technology seems to be the first institution that has come before us to tell us that it does not just have a protocol or plan but - going back to the conflict of interest and property - has a special office. I wrote it down.

Ms Ann Campbell:

We have a technology transfer office.

Ms Irene McCausland:

We have a technology transfer office which is under my remit as vice president with responsibility for development.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Dundalk Institute of Technology have a policy?

Ms Irene McCausland:

We have an intellectual property policy and procedures.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So there is a special office or special committee?

Ms Irene McCausland:

We have an intellectual property committee.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So there is a committee and an office?

Ms Irene McCausland:

Yes.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They then report back to the governing body?

Ms Irene McCausland:

Yes, we report up to the executive board and through-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Have any conflicts of interest relating to companies on campus been brought to Ms McCausland's attention? Has she had to look at anything?

Ms Irene McCausland:

No.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Have certain people declared conflicts of interest and opted out in respect of the two companies that were mentioned or the other one?

Ms Irene McCausland:

No, it did not arise in the case of the two companies that are in situ. There were no conflicts of interest with the one that did start off but did not go forward.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The impact of the reduction in staff has arisen in Galway. A reduction in staff obviously impacts differently on different courses. Business courses have less staff and more students. Presumably, engineering is more hands-on.

Ms Ann Campbell:

Yes, but we had more staff in engineering than we needed.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is it not correct that Dundalk Institute of Technology is reducing engineering?

Ms Ann Campbell:

No, we are trying to grow engineering again.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I heard Ms Campbell say this and that it would be brought up straight through to Level 8.

Ms Ann Campbell:

To be clear on that, the ladder system for institutes of technology involves students enrolling in first year on a Level 7 programme with those wanting to stay on for re-enrolling on a Level 8 programme following their degree. We have noticed that the demand is more towards ab initioLevel 8 degrees so that is where we are moving. We can run the Level 7 and Level 8 programmes in parallel to some extent and we will do that to be efficient.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has Dundalk Institute of Technology had feedback from the companies where its graduates were placed?

Ms Ann Campbell:

We always have feedback. We have industry advisory boards for all our faculties. Industry is consulted each time we validate a programme. There is industry consultation when a programme is being designed and developed. An industry representative always sits on a validation panel. Broadly speaking, industry is very pleased with our graduates but companies always say that graduates need more communication and transferable skills, an issue that is not unique to Dundalk Institute of Technology.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Graham Love from the HEA has indicated that he wishes to speak.

Dr. Graham Love:

To go back to Deputy Connolly's second last point, if I heard her correctly, it was the institute of technology that indicated it had a separate committee and-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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All of them.

Dr. Graham Love:

I want to be very clear. I believe what I said yesterday is that all of the institutions have in place a set of functions - in some cases, separate offices - but certainly functions and committees to implement the national intellectual property policy in the institutes of technology and universities. There is a set of procedures that is engaged to make sure that if an individual researcher has a potential conflict of interest, they step out and are managed. Those processes, committees and in some cases, separate technology transfer functions are in place in higher education institutions.

What I did pick up yesterday and I would like to say here in the interests of fairness on this is that while we are aware those policies are in place, as yet we are not in a position to assure they are all being implemented exactly according to the way they are specified on that. We have taken that on board as something we should look at.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It was in that context that I raised it today. It seems that Dundalk has gone a step further. I will keep an open mind.

Dr. Graham Love:

There are very reflective practices in many of the other institutes, I could say, very similar-type structures. It is a system that has grown strongly over the last ten years. Ireland was behind but we have accelerated fast over the last number of years in implementing policies, procedures and structures like the one the Deputy heard here today.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Go raibh maith agat.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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At this stage, we are concluding. Is it agreed to dispose of the Dundalk Institute of Technology's financial statement for 2014-15? Agreed.

On behalf of the Committee of Public Accounts, I thank all the witnesses from Dundalk Institute of Technology for participating in the meeting and for the material supplied to the committee.

We will suspend now until 2.30 p.m. when we will continue examination of the financial statements with the University of Limerick.