Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Courts, Civil Law, Criminal Law and Superannuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2024 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken at 3:45 p. m. and to conclude after 90 minutes if not previously concluded, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes, all Senators not to exceed five minutes, time may be shared and the Minister to be given no less than ten minutes to reply to the debate; Nos. 2 and 3, motions regarding the continuance of certain provisions of the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act 1998 and the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009, respectively, to be taken at 5:30 p. m. and to conclude after 90 minutes, if not previously concluded, the motions shall be discussed together, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes and all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, time may be shared and the Minister to be given no less than ten minutes to reply to the debate; and No. 4, Charities (Amendment) Bill 2023 - Second Stage, to be taken at 7:15 p. m. with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes, all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, time may be shared and the Minister to be given no less than ten minutes to reply to the debate.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call on the next contributor, I welcome H.E. Stanislav Vidovi, ambassador of Slovenia to Ireland, to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. The ambassador is most welcome here to mark Slovenia's national day.In 1991, your country achieved its independence and, of course, we go back much further in terms of our relationship, with Irish monks going all the way to Slovenia to bring the word to the people. We share a love of language and culture. It was under Ireland's Presidency of the European Council in the spring of 2004 that Slovenia joined the European Community and, of course, we work together closely in the United Nations and other international bodies. We were greatly appreciative of Slovenia's support during the Brexit negotiations and for that support, we are forever thankful. There are nearly 1,500 Slovenians living in Ireland and contributing to the country, but also remembering their home on this, their national day. As Slovenia faces England in the European soccer championships this evening, we wish you all the best and hope that luck will smile upon you on your national day. I thank the ambassador for being with us here on Slovenia's national day.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Order of Business as outlined by the Leader. We have just had a very poignant moment in Dáil Éireann, where the Ceann Comhairle called for all Members who were present to stand and applaud the presence of Natasha O'Brien in the Gallery. It was a very powerful and striking moment, and the Ceann Comhairle, addressing Natasha, said: “We are on your side.”

We know Natasha's name because of her bravery and the stance and public pronouncements that she has had to make over recent days but how many other women are there whose names we do not know? Many are not in the scenario of that unprovoked attack that Natasha was subjected to but in the hidden shadows of daily attacks, in particular those who suffer at the hands of their spouses. The Leader and I met members of one of the many centres that operate around the country when she came with me to Meath Women's Refuge some weeks ago. They discussed the issues they are faced with, stating that recognising violence against women has its root cause in gender inequality and seeking the kind of real societal change that we need to change this culture that, unfortunately, exists, maybe within a minority, but it still exists.

As I said, in recognising that violence against women has its root cause in gender inequality, we need to make sure that, through the education system, we educate our young men because having those conversations is greatly needed. We need to work with bodies like Coimisiún na Meán to make sure that the type of narrative that is often portrayed on social media and in the media in general is changed. We have a body of work to do. It is not just an issue in regard to the Judiciary and the failures in that case last week in handing down a suspended sentence. There is a broader debate for us, as a society, on what we need to do if, in the words of the Ceann Comhairle, we are really on the side of Natasha O'Brien and others.

I congratulate Deputy Michael McGrath on his nomination as Commissioner. He is a man of great integrity and a great politician who I have known for over 20 years. I am delighted for him. I am also delighted for Deputy Jack Chambers on his appointment as Minister for Finance. He is an exceptionally gifted young politician who is going to do a fine job.

On a very sad note, I acknowledge the passing of Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh. I do not care what sport you follow in life, and I am a passionate GAA man, but Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh transcended all sports. His voice was the voice of a nation. He illuminated our homes. As Uachtarán Cumann Lúthchleas Gael, Jarlath Burns, said at lunchtime on the news, his voice brought games to life. Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh was part of the fabric of this country. We are all the poorer for having lost him today but all the richer for the fact that he existed in the first place. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I raise an issue that I raised before on the OPW making submissions to planning authorities on floodplains. It has made several submissions related to areas where housing has been built and where planning permission may be required or due. This has consequences for both. It has consequences for people who have houses built because they will not get insurance if the OPW has said that they are on a floodplain or that their area is likely to flood. The householder will not get insurance, which has huge consequences for them. It also has consequences for people who may be in a position to build a house and the OPW has put in a submission that it is on floodplain.

I talked to a planner recently who told me that in one area where the OPW said this, the water would need to rise 5 m before it would have any effect. Some 5 m is a huge height.

The OPW does not share the information it has with anybody. I ask that the OPW shares the information and what the reasons behind the submissions it makes are based on. I ask that it gives this information planners and local authorities. This is the least that the OPW could and should do. We should demand this from the Minister and the Government. The OPW should make public the submissions it makes related to floodplains because, as I said, it has huge consequences for people who have houses who will not get insurance, as well as for people looking for planning permissions when we are at a time with a need for houses to be built.

I would also like to-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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In respect of the issue the Senator raised, the Planning and Development Bill 2023 will come before the Seanad on Thursday, so there will be an opportunity to speak about it then.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I also wish to be associated with the vote of confidence to Deputy Michael McGrath. He will make an excellent Commissioner. I wish him the best of luck, as well as Deputy Jack Chambers, who will become Minister for Finance.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I wish to quote Ms Justice Ann Power from the opening statement of the tribunal of inquiry into the Defence Forces, which covers issues of discrimination, harassment, bullying, sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape of male and female members of Óglaigh na hÉireann. It is a culture that promotes class discrimination, promotes discrimination on the basis of sex and sexual orientation and has shockingly high levels of sexual assault and rape. She made a powerful quote:

Honour is a cardinal [virtue] in the Defence Forces ... It means doing what is right ... [and] standing up for the truth, the whole truth, even if [it means] standing alone.

I have to say this again. I started my PhD as a young officer in 1996. Twenty-eight years ago, I set out very clearly in a published thesis that there were shockingly high levels of sexual violence, sexual assault and rape in our Defence Forces. The military authorities and Ministers have known about this for almost 30 years. In 20 of those years, I faced retribution and reprisal from my former colleagues from that community. My family faced retribution and reprisal up until even recently with the publication of the independent review group’s report, which described Defence Forces' culture as one that barely tolerates women and regards them as being less than human.

Let no Member of these Houses stand up and say that this is a case of a few rotten apples. That is gaslighting. It is a systemic and systematic toxic post-colonial culture.

I refer to anybody who suggests otherwise, despite all the inquiries, research, independent and government inquiries, study review group, independent monitoring groups and independent review group.To deny the truth is to denigrate the service of people like me and other survivors. I was alone. However, yesterday, at the beginning of that tribunal of inquiry, I was accompanied by Rosalyn O'Callaghan, Diane Byrne and Honor Murphy, all Women of Honour. Today we are joined in this House by Natasha O'Brien, another Woman of Honour. We have to all work together to eradicate this culture which is a microcosm of a broader problem in society and a profound and persistent problem of violence against women and girls in our society.

I will end by saying, Ms Justice Ann Power asked everybody, whether retired or serving, who has any knowledge of any of those phenomena in the Defence Forces to please come forward. They have until 16 August to make a submission through info@toidf.ie. It is really important.

The judge got a written assurance from the Chief of Staff and from the Minister of Defence that there will be no more retribution or reprisal against people like me, the Women of Honour and everybody else who comes forward. I say to those in the Defence Forces community, retired or serving, enough with the reprisal, no more trolling online, no more false rumours and character assassination, and no more bullying people and targeting people because they have come forward with the truth. Let the truth be out in all of its unvarnished reality, be it negative or positive.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I am conscious that Natasha O'Brien is in the Houses of the Oireachtas today. We owe an enormous debt of gratitude to her and the other women who have come forward to tell their stories about how badly our criminal justice system is letting down victims of the most shocking violence against women and girls. There may be an appeal, so we cannot say too much but there has to be review now of sentencing. There are also serious questions for the Defence Forces. It is mind-boggling to think that anybody with a conviction, not necessarily with a custodial sentence but with a conviction, continues to serve in the Defence Forces in this country.

I call for a debate with the Minister, Deputy Foley, on the recent publication of the guidelines on the use of school property, especially after school hours. Those of us who take a particular interest in this issue have waited eagerly for these guidelines. I read with great disappointment what we finally got two weeks ago. The document states it is designed to encourage schools to engage with the local community. However, when you read the detail, it does very little of the sort. It maintains the position of the Department of Education, which is effectively to sit on its hands and devolve solely to boards of management all decisions with regard to after hours school use or use of school buildings beyond their remit of education.

There are two issues here. The State spends millions, indeed billions, of euro every year on new school buildings, and yet these school buildings lie empty for almost half the waking day. There is no vision or imagination as to how we use these school buildings on a systematic basis across communities. The second key issue is that we have little or no future-proofing. A new school building costs around €30 million and there is no provision for after-school care, by and large, in the school design. When it does happen it is reliant on the goodwill and progressive vision of the board of management, but that does not apply throughout all schools.

I can give two examples. One is a school which in 2019 started to have after-school provision. Now, because it is at capacity and is a full school building with no space for after-school use, the board of management has to tell parents it can no longer continue with after-school provision in the shape and form it did previously. That is distressing for parents who relied on the school for after-school provision. It is difficult for the board of management as well to have those difficult conversations.

Another school I am engaged with has decided that, because it has been left short by the Department of Education for its cleaning bill, it will hike its monthly licence fee by €2,000, from €3,000 to €5,000, for the pre-school provider and the after-school provider, who have been there for many years.This is a huge issue for the parents, the provider and the school. They are going to lose all that fantastic continuity between the preschool and the primary school.

The key issue is that schools are public buildings built with taxpayers' money. The Department has left school buildings across the country short in areas such as the caretaker allowance, the maintenance allowance, the school bill and the school book scheme which, this year, does not cover school books for those schools that did not previously have a book rental scheme in place. Schools are having to scramble to try to put that money in place and the preschool provider is going to be hiked out and a childcare chain brought in, charging much higher fees to the parents in that school. Rather than stepping back, we have to see the Department of Education actively intervene with these schools to ensure school buildings are used in a public sense, rather than for profit, and that schools are adequately resourced for all their needs in providing education.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I wish to talk about the cervical scandal that stills exists in Ireland. If a woman is going for a cervical check, her swab gets sent to America or Germany. Can women in this country trust the cervical tests? As someone who has been there and done all of that over the last year and a half, I can say we cannot trust them. It takes six weeks for the test result to come back.

We should also lower the age for cervical screening. In secondary schools, young girls can have the HPV vaccination and I welcome that. Traveller women can get married at 15 or 16. While it is unlawful for the State to marry people at that age, unfortunately, it is still legal to do so through the church. That is a scandal in itself. I promise, if I am here on 8 March next year and we are discussing a motion on women's rights, I am going to call a vote to vote against it because we are all talk and no action when it comes to equality for women in this country. Young Traveller women who should be getting cervical screening from the age of 20 are being left behind. In the last four years - it is coming up to my fourth year here - I have spoken to many GPs and they are all in agreement that the age should be lowered to 20 both for cervical screening and BreastCheck.

In recent weeks, I have done a lot of work with Pavee Point, Ballyfermot Traveller Action Project and the Marie Keating Foundation. In my experience with women from the Traveller community and in education around cervical testing and how to go about it, women in this country, in all communities, should not have to wait until the age of 25 to get a letter; the age should be lowered. The same applies to BreastCheck.

The Civil Engagement Group is looking at introducing a Bill in the coming months which would lower the age for cervical screening. However, because it will involve a money message, the Government may not support it. I call for a debate in the House with the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, on cervical checks and public information in this regard. Many members of the public are not aware that their test goes to Germany or America. Women still do not trust the system.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call the next Senator, I will allow Senator Aisling Dolan to welcome the school from Ballinasloe.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate it. I thank all the Senators here. Students from fourth, fifth and sixth class in Cloontuskert National School are here today. They met Senator Flynn earlier. These young people are our future generation. They were finalists in VEX Robotics. This small school in the west of Ireland, located a few miles outside of Ballinasloe, competes at the highest level. I am also told that the school's students are county finalists in the football. That is very important. This school goes over and above. It is the students' last full day in sixth class. The boys and girls here from sixth class will be going to a brand-new secondary school, Clonfert College, in September, hopefully. They are going to be starting out in life. I want to acknowledge all the schools that come to visit us here. They come on tours on their last days and see democracy in action. They got to be in the Dáil earlier for the ovation that was given. That was very important. I thank them for their time.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the school principal, Kate Murray, and Fr. Finneran for coming here. Normally we give the students homework off for the rest of the week but sorry about that. You will have to come earlier next year.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I too welcome the students. I also join in the expressions of congratulations to Deputies Michael McGrath and Jack Chambers. I also add my voice of sympathy to that voice of a generation, Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh, who so many of us were familiar with from the radio as he travelled around the country commentating on GAA and other sporting events.

I want to raise the question of fees for criminal barristers. I cannot understand why the Minister for Justice has not entered into a process to reverse a number of the cuts that were introduced during the FEMPI period. Criminal barristers had to threaten and engage in protest last October. At that time there was a clear commitment that there would be engagement with the Bar of Ireland to resolve this matter. In 2018, a Government-commissioned report made very clear that the cuts to the fees should be reversed. We are now again facing the withdrawal of service of a number of criminal barristers. This will cause difficulties for criminal cases in our courts. I ask the Leader to ensure that the Minister for Justice would enter into a process of discussion with the Bar of Ireland on this issue.

I also want to raise another matter. Last week in this House, Senator Paul Gavan, in yet another of Sinn Féin's anti-American tirades, called for a boycott of US Independence Day events, which was very inappropriate. The House can imagine my surprise when I saw a report in The Irish Times at the weekend that Friends of Sinn Féin had sent back, in six months, $51,000 to Sinn Féin from wealthy donors across the Atlantic. I am sure the Senator must have been a bit like Captain Louis Renault in "Casablanca", declaring he was shocked to find all of these donations coming from wealthy Americans. It is time that we had a debate in this House about Sinn Féín's sources of financing. Other political parties are subject to rules and limits but I find it very rich that we are lectured to about whether we can engage with and support the United States - and we can certainly criticise its foreign policy - by a party that continues to receive large sums from wealthy American donors.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I support the suggestion that the Minister needs to engage with the Bar of Ireland. The rate of attrition from the Law Library is enormous. Very few criminal barristers survive beyond year six because the rate of pay is just so appallingly low. A person can sit all day, get briefed for one bail application and earn €25. It is not understood that a small number of barristers are paid incredibly well but the vast majority are not.

On numerous occasions I have asked for statements in the House on the apartment defects scheme. This is a really good-news scheme from a Government perspective. More than €2 billion has been set aside to provide for remediation for apartment owners. However, there are some glitches along the way in apartment owners being able to access the money and in how that looks. Huge work is done all the time by the Minister. To be fair, there is progress. There is interplay between the Departments of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and Justice because the latter is over the Multi-Units Developments Act 2011. This has an impact on how owner management companies are regulated, overseeing their governance and the transparency with which they will administer these schemes. It is really important that we have statements in the House and be able to engage with the Minister, Deputy O' Brien, and to congratulate him for something he advocated for over a long period, both in opposition and as Minister, and has come through on his word. However, refinements need to happen, which need to be discussed in the House.I would ask that we have statements in that regard. I want to praise the Not Our Fault campaign, run by Sam and Odette Doran, who are doing all of this on a voluntary basis outside of their own jobs. They are supporting homeowners and developments throughout the country through their exceptional work in being a guinea pig for the Department of housing in the Park West development. If we could have statements on that, it would be fantastic.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I, too, would like to join with people who commended Natasha O'Brien on coming into the public domain to tell her story. However, I would caution that the case of the man involved is far from over and the last thing we want to do is provide some sort of defence that he has already been tried in the public domain. We need to be very careful and measured in what we say.

I have always supported the Defence Forces and today I am horrified by the statements being made by Members of this House, the Lower House and the Taoiseach. They talk about the Defence Forces shielding and hiding people in the organisation who would be responsible for vicious acts. Let us be clear. The Defence Forces are responsible for implementing Defence Forces regulations as set down by the Government and Minister of the day. The officer who was forced or sent into court in the O'Brien case was bound under Defence Forces regulation A7, part 12, paragraphs 55 to 58, inclusive. As a commissioned officer, he was expected to go in and deliver an honest appraisal of the man's service in the Defence Forces. He was not defending him in any way. He was merely carrying out his duty, as per Defence Forces regulations.

With respect to calls for people to be dishonourably discharged or removed from the Defence Forces, Defence Forces regulation A10, paragraph 58, is very clear. It states, in respect of a suspensory sentence, that "[I]f the conviction carries a suspensory sentence the discharge, if directed, will be carried out as soon as possible after the case has been dealt with by the Civil Power" and that discharges under this subparagraph will not be carried out until it has been ascertained that no appeal is pending or, where an appeal has been made, until the appeal has been heard and determined. These are the regulations as set down by the Minister.

The Defence Forces are obliged to carry out Defence Forces regulations as laid down. If we are to make an argument today, it should be that it is time we reviewed all of the Defence Forces regulations in order that we bring them into the modern era. However, I will not tolerate or stand idly by while people denigrate the force that I served in and loved and the people I worked with. Honourable, decent people are in that organisation. They are horrified by what has happened and what has been done by a very small number of people. I guarantee the House that if we went into any organisation in the country, we would find similar people. Let us not blacken everybody at the same time. It is desperately hurtful.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I want to pay tribute to the late Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh who was an institution in this country. It is probably not that long ago since he became the main broadcaster on sports for RTÉ - it was only in 1984 or 1985 when he took all over from Mícheál O'Hehir who stepped down and retired at that stage. Bhí suim mhór ag Mícheál sa teanga. He was a most outstanding man for the Irish language. Bhí sé ábalta labhairt as Béarla agus as Gaeilge ag an am céanna. He did more for the Irish language than anybody else. When young people listened to him in GAA clubs, schools or wherever, they said he had a lovely way of getting the language, our traditional language, across to them. We all know that sometimes Irish is a challenge for people. I want to extend my sympathy to his family.He was 92, so he had reached an advanced age. He retired in 2010 but he was as popular as ever, even though he was 14 years gone from the broadcasting scene.

I ask the Leader to request that the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, OPW, come to the Chamber again. I thank the Leader for visiting Lough Funshinagh in County Roscommon. We have to let people know that the problem is as big today as it was when the Tánaiste, the Taoiseach and the Leader were there. It has not gone away. Two or three weeks of wet weather will threaten that community again. Water is still lapping up around people's homes. People in Dublin cannot believe this when I tell them but the dry water has not really solved anything. That threat remains. It is important that the Attorney General and the Government find a solution to remove that water on a temporary basis. The court order must be lifted so we can try to get water removed from the area before the winter comes.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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As the Fine Gael spokesperson on sport in the Seanad, I extend my party's sympathies to the Ó Muircheartaigh family. Mícheál was the voice of the GAA for me growing up. One memory popped into my head. It was during a Munster hurling match, although I forget which game it was, when Mícheál said a Rabbitte was chasing a Fox in his commentary. He brought the game to life, even over the radio. You could visually imagine the game in your head as you listened to his commentary. He will be deeply mourned.

I raise an issue that came up with candidates running in the local elections, namely, the fuel allowance, particularly for the elderly. Given the change in our country's climate, including the longer winters we are having, I ask that the Minister for Social Protection look at extending the season for the fuel allowance. It currently finishes at the end of March. Perhaps we could look at extending it to the beginning of May because the climate has changed. Our winters are longer and we need to make sure we support those who are the most vulnerable in particular.

In recent times, I have had discussions with a number of the community employment schemes in Longford. We know the valuable work these schemes do throughout our communities, from Tidy Towns activities to looking after GAA pitches and community centres and halls. There seem to have been changes in the systems regarding verifying payments, etc. While the changes may have been brought in for a good reason, the vast majority of the sponsor groups are made up of volunteers in the community and the changes are imposing a serious amount of added work and responsibility on them. We have full-time supervisors in place to do this work, yet these changes to the system are putting extra work on the schemes. I know of one scheme in a Carrickedmond and Legan in south Longford where the chair of the local group is going to step back because he cannot commit to give so much time in a voluntary capacity. The system was working and I do not see why it was necessary to change it. We will start losing the voluntary committees administering these schemes if we do not reverse these changes. I ask that the Minister for Social Protection bring back the old system to ensure we can maintain the voluntary committees which are overseeing these vital schemes in all our communities.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Once again, I call for a further debate on Ireland's migration policies. Tonight, in the Dáil, the Government will push through the EU migration and asylum pact. I recently received a white paper on immigration connections to crime in Denmark and Sweden and lessons for Ireland from Ryan research. The key findings of the paper highlight the sharp increase in overall crime, particular violent and sexual offences, coinciding with substantial increases in immigration from non-western countries, in Denmark and Sweden. Furthermore, non-western immigrants and their descendents were found to be disproportionately represented in crime statistics in both countries. This emphasises the need for proactive measures to manage immigration and ensure public safety.

In 2023, 72% of the new emigrants per year to Ireland were from non-EU and non-UK countries. In 2006, non-EU and non-UK migrants accounted for only 18% of migrants. Our current number is a fourfold increase. Why is this important to note? It is because Ireland has experienced a 43% increase in violent crimes and a 113% increase in sexual offences since 2003.We must objectively look at the positive and negative impacts on societal change. Ireland has experienced unprecedented levels of immigration in recent years. It is crucial that we learn from the experiences of our European neighbours in order to avoid potential pitfalls. Notably, Denmark will not be opting in. In Denmark, a 158% increase in the number of migrants correlated with a 31% increase in overall crime. Violent crimes increased by 94% and sexual offences increased by 248%. Last November, I was accused of using dangerous language by the Minister, Helen McEntee-----

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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-----for stating similar facts. The only person putting the Irish people in danger is the Minister, Deputy McEntee, for failing to execute-----

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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That is out of order.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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-----the long-held plan to turn Thornton Hall into a prison.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I take exception to the comment made by Senator Keogan. As the Minister, Deputy McEntee, is not present to defend herself, that comment should be withdrawn.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I commend Natasha O’Brien on her bravery in speaking out against the appalling attack she endured two years ago, although the court case was heard this week. She bravely spoke up about the homophobia she witnessed and what she had endured herself. I also commend the people who have come out to support her, not only in Limerick, but all over the country. She is in Leinster House today. I encourage other women who have endured similar attacks to come out as well. Her bravery makes her a role model for other people.

The Minister, Deputy McEntee, has doubled the sentence for assault from five years to ten. Unfortunately, this case predated that. Another measure being introduced will mean that anyone who gives a character witness in a sexual violence case will have to be available for cross-examination. These are two important developments.

A case and investigation are under way within the Defence Forces and we cannot prejudice them, but I would like to see a number of things happen, one of which is the expediting of the third national strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. Perhaps there could be mandatory training for all members of the Judiciary, as well as an education and training programme in our schools to highlight the issues surrounding sexual-based violence.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I join in commending the bravery of Natasha O’Brien. It is when people waive their anonymity, tell their stories and explain what has happened and how abhorrent they feel their treatment was that we see change. I have no doubt but that we will see further change as a result of Ms O’Brien’s bravery. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, has made significant changes. She met Aimée Foley and me for two hours following Ms Foley’s experience with the judicial process. I have no doubt that when the time is appropriate, she will meet Ms O’Brien and we will see changes.

For a long time, I have had a concern about the use of suspended sentences in the overall context. Sentences are there for a reason. The suspension of sentences should be a rarity, but it appears to me that they are becoming the norm in our judicial process. The time has come to acknowledge this and consider it.While we now have certain judicial boards and so on, I believe it is appropriate, as legislators, to look at what we can do to reduce the prevalence of suspended sentences and to restore them to being a rarity, as opposed to the norm.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
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I join everyone in referencing Natasha O'Brien's bravery in coming forward. We had a conversation in this Chamber where Senators Doherty, Chambers and Pauline O'Reilly moved a Bill specifically about character references. We went through the Second Stage of that. Is this a time we need to have that conversation again? Where is that legislation and will it be moved forward? At the time, we spoke about changing a culture that puts victims on trial. Over the past few days, we first saw the bravery of Natasha, but other stories came forward about those deemed upstanding members of society despite the fact they did some of the most heinous things. They continue to serve in what I say should be upstanding institutions, and a lot of it seems to be based on the idea of character references. If you are an upstanding person, what you have done is somehow less of an offence. Some may not have only done character references for the people we know about. It may be more than one. Those victims have to sit through character references. They have to hear the individual being lauded in society. I have supported friends through this process and I cannot imagine what it is like to have to listen to people defend someone who did something, speak about their good name and then argue they deserve a lighter sentence or slap on the wrist. That individual will have to live with physical and emotional scars for the rest of their lives. They have to live with the scars on their bodies and with their experience. It might be timely to have a conversation about whether that legislation will be brought through any further Stages or if there is any update as to where it is with the Minister.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I turn to funding for roads, which is a topic we are all familiar with. I seek a debate with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, on this issue across the suite of areas from national projects to local projects. I have become aware of an issue with TII where funding was allocated by the Government and the Minister for specific programmes of works in the 2024 allocation. However, when a local authority is in a position to award a tender for a contract for works that have been approved, TII says it has a review of funding under way and tells the local authority not to appoint a contractor. This is a serious issue. I am aware of one in Lismore, County Waterford. An allocation of €500,000 was made in the programme for that project. They are awaiting approval to go to tender for works. A tender is in for €450,000 and they have been told that other local authorities have been requested to put a hold on tendering pavement works while an expenditure review is undertaken in light of existing committed contracts. There is clearly an issue and a disconnect between the allocations that the Government has given to TII for projects, and what TII is saying to local authorities on the ground. That particular project, along with many others, is much needed. That is why the funding was given to TII in the first place. However, it is writing to local authorities around the country stating there is clearly an issue. I would like a debate in this House on the wider suite of roads programme issues.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I dtosach báire, déanaim comhbhrón le muintir Mhíchíl Uí Mhuircheartaigh. Tá laoch ar lár inniu. Fear mór Gaelach, galánta, a bhí ann agus ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam. I think the first time I met Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh was when I was a student of journalism.He was very kind to me when I was doing a project on the history of the GAA and told me many interesting things. The next occasion we met was here when he addressed the Seanad. He was always interesting and always courteous. He was the epitome of the Irish gentleman of the old style and a man who was universally admired. That is not something that can be said about everybody we encounter in public life. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

I ask the Leader if at some point we could have a debate with the relevant Minister about the ongoing controversy about certain books that are available in public libraries. Some of the material involved is highly obscene, inappropriate and certainly not material that should be pushed at children in the 12 to 17 years age bracket. I know that our President and the Fórsa trade union have been critical about protests. Our President referred to books being torn up by vigilantes, attempting to impose a censorship and calling for the protection of libraries and library staff from intimidation and protest. While that might sound reasonable on its own terms, what is unreasonable is that there is no mention by either of those parties of the child protection issues that are involved. Given how dangerous these are, we cannot on the one hand be talking about the worrying attitude of men towards women in our society, the worrying state of the mental health of young people and so on, while at the same time be endorsing or facilitating material that is inappropriate for young people in their personal development being pushed under the guise of helping people's personal development.

In the light of that, while there must be standards to protest, the rudeness of some protesters and the performative tearing up of a book that someone purchased is really beside the point. Our President and Fórsa should first and foremost be talking about the inappropriateness of child inappropriate material being made available-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, as you are aware-----

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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-----and then let them talk about protests.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, as you are aware, the President is not to be referred to in the Chamber.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am not aware of that rule. He is not accountable to us in the Chamber. I am not aware of a rule that he is not to be referred to.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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You are not to criticise him.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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He is often right, but when he is wrong, he is badly wrong and he should call himself aside on this issue.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Criticism of the President is not appropriate in the Chamber. Are you aware of that rule?

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I look forward to seeing that rule in writing, a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We will send it on to you, but you have been made aware of that rule previously.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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If I may say so, as I understand it, there is a separation of powers and we respect the separate legitimacy of other roles. However, to say that in the national Parliament nobody can be the subject of critical comment, respectfully delivered, is not a rule that-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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You are aware that that would be a factor with the Judiciary as well.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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We would not and should not comment-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There are limits to what you can do in relation to issues-----

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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We would not comment on matters that are sub judice, but-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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In relation to-----

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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If the President gets it wrong, above all, and equal to all citizens and especially in our national Parliament, we are entitled to comment.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, you have been here literally as long as I have been and so you are aware of the rules.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Could you give me the precise rule?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We will send them on to you.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Would you quote it in this House, please, a Leas-Chathaoirligh?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Very good.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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There is no point saying it is very well established. If we cannot criticise something that Uachtarán na hÉireann has said, this is not a democracy. When he gets it wrong, he gets it badly wrong. He is admirable in many respects, but-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The established precedent, of which you are well aware-----

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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-----his head is in the wrong place on this issue. He is campaigning and he needs to be-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator-----

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Child protection comes before the dignity of the Presidency in my book and in many people's books.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, you are well aware of the established rule in relation to the Presidency and this House.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am aware of the rules and I am very respectful about how I speak about the President, but if he is wrong, he is wrong and he needs to be called out.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator, I am glad you have acknowledged you are aware of the rules.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Will I still get something in writing giving the precise wording of the alleged rule?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am glad that you are aware of the rules.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Will I get in writing the precise wording of the alleged rules?

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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They are saying you will get it in writing.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I would ask you to observe the rules.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I apologise; I cannot hear with the interruptions.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am glad that you are aware of the rules and I would ask you to observe them.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Will you send me something in writing specifying the rules?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We will write to you.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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There will be further discussion about this in this House, a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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This House is about discussion, but I am glad that you are aware of the rules. I just ask you to observe them.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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Last week in this House, I raised the issue of an allegation of an attack that took place in Phoenix Park. I acknowledge that the Garda has taken swift action in response to that. A number of organisations have been involved in supporting the young men at the centre of that attack. It is very important that an arrest has been made. I will make no further comment on it. However, it is important to point out that in recent days, I and others have received a serious amount of abuse on social media telling me that this did not happen and that it is all something that I made up.The fact that there is an arrest is clearly a demonstration that it is not the case but I acknowledge the work the Garda has done in identifying a suspect.

I am also increasingly disgusted by the behaviour of some Members, particularly the use of the Order of Business not for discussion, calling for debates or any advancing any kind of policy or anything like that but for personal mudslinging and the propagation of misinformation. Today in this House, one Member told us that there has essentially been an increase in sexual crime in this country because of migration. That is patently false. The Garda has said very clearly that there is no link between crime and people coming here seeking asylum. If we want to talk about it, let us talk about it but let us not propagate misinformation. Let us not either say in one breath that we respect the House, and at the same time talk down the Leas-Chathaoirleach when we are trying to make a point, instead of actually respecting the rules. An allegation was also made against the Minister in this House and an application was made to ask the speaker to withdraw that. However, the Chair seems to be more interested in telling people they cannot talk about the President than dealing with the fact that other Senators are abusing their positions in the House. It should not happen and it needs to be dealt with.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is well within his rights to stand up in any debate and ask the person speaking if they will allow him to intervene. If he feels that somebody has said something he does not feel is appropriate, he is, under Standing Orders-----

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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The Chair was asked to instruct the Member to withdraw their remark-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No, no.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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-----and the Chair did not even address the request.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No. No one stood up or asked to intervene.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, I asked that the Member withdraw their comment.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Byrne did not ask me to do it.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I did. I said it-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No, the Senator has to stand up and ask to intervene. She can intervene and ask if the Member will allow her to intervene and then she can request it - to give way.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, before I started speaking on what I wanted to raise, I raised it then and addressed it you. I asked-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No, the Senator asked the Member to withdraw.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I asked that the Member be asked to withdraw their comment about the Minister. I asked that.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Then the Senator can ask the Member to withdraw the comment directly.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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They were finished speaking. It was at the very end of when they spoke. I asked when I stood up, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, on a point of order.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Members make political charges. It happens all the time. The Senator can ask the Member to withdraw the comment directly while they are speaking as well. Anois, the Leader on the Order of Business.

Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and all Senators for their contributions this afternoon. I note he has left us but I welcome the Slovenian ambassador as well. He was in the Chamber with us earlier, and I wish them well on their national day.

The first to speak today was Senator Shane Cassells. I acknowledge that most Senators acknowledged the sad passing of Micheál Ó Muircheartaigh. As I was coming to the Chamber today, I was listening to "News At One" and the piece that was done about him and his life. He was certainly known to most people in the country. Even if people were not actively involved in the GAA or watching matches all of the time, they would still have been very much aware of his commentary and his advocacy for the Irish language, culture and our national game. One of my strongest memories of him, which does not appear to be known to lots of people, was the video he did about making a ham sandwich, which was covered by The Irish Times in 2015. If people have not watched the video, they should because it is an exemplary display of fantastic language, making the mundane interesting. Only he could have done it, and it was very entertaining for a three-minute video. There was very little to it but because he was the person speaking I was enthralled the whole way through. I extend my sympathies to his family, community and all of his friends. I am sure they are deeply saddened today but the age of 93 is a fantastic age to reach. He will be forever and deeply missed.

I also want to acknowledge that former RTÉ broadcaster Tommie Gorman has also passed away today. He was very young, and he is a man who will be sadly missed. He has given lots of service and has been in every home in the country. I extend the sympathies of the House to his family, former colleagues and all of his community and friends. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

Senator Cassells spoke first today about Natasha O'Brien, who was in the Dáil Chamber earlier and received a standing ovation, which she absolutely deserved.This is a case which has taken over the country in the past number of days and which has brought people out to protest. People who have never protested before took to the streets in Dublin, Limerick and Cork. It showed that while we speak a great deal about a zero tolerance approach to violence against women, sometimes those words are not followed through with concrete action.

While I understand, and I would perhaps disagree with some of the points made, I believe, by Senator Conway, on the use of a suspended sentence. It does have its uses, in that there is an acknowledgement of a guilty plea. It saves the victim and the process of going to court. It also saves the State time and resources but it is difficult to reconcile that with a fully suspended sentence in the context of the severity of the crime. What was particularly chilling for me about the case was the Snapchat story where he boasted - two to put her down and two to knock her out. It was a deeply chilling thing for somebody to say, which showed intent and somebody who had really thought about their actions and who was proud of what they did until it had significant consequences for them personally. It is very hard to reconcile that with somebody walking out of the court free and the victim being told they should be happy because they did not have to go through a trial process. I want to thank Natasha O'Brien for her bravery, for highlighting what needed to be highlighted, for being a voice for others who did not have a voice and for really making everybody ask whether we really doing all we need to do when it comes to tackling violence against women.

I think there is a cultural thing in terms of assessing the impact on the victim and the proportionality when it comes to deciding what the sentence should be in those cases because this is not the first case of this kind in respect of a perceived lenient sentence and I am sure it will not be the last. I hope that it will spark a change in how we sentence those who violently attack women and others in this country.

Senator Cassells also congratulated our next European Commissioner, Deputy Michael McGrath, and our new Minister for Finance, Deputy Jack Chambers. I congratulate both colleagues and wish them the very best in this new chapter. Both of these are significant roles and important positions for the country at a really pivotal time. I wish both the Minister, Deputy McGrath, and the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, the very best.

Senator Paddy Burke spoke about the OPW in respect of submissions to planning authorities. I support the Senator's calls that those submissions should be made public because of the significant consequences for homes already built in those areas, which are then designated as a flood area and the inability to get insurance or planning in those areas.

Senator Clonan spoke about the tribunal of inquiry into the Defence Forces and made a very impassioned contribution to the Chamber. I acknowledge the Senator's many years of work in this space in terms of the cultural issues within the Defence Forces in regard to sexual violence. We have seen a very serious addressing of that. The Minister for Defence has been very clear that this needs to be dealt with and there is a process of reform happening within the Defence Forces.

I also acknowledge the equally impassioned speech of Senator Craughwell, who is a former member of the Defence Forces. It is important to acknowledge that not every member engages in activity of that nature and, in fact, it is a very small number. The vast majority of men and women serving in our Defence Forces are exemplary individuals who serve their country and the State, and are patriots. Like all of us, I am sure they are deeply saddened by the Natasha O'Brien case and any other challenges within the Defence Forces. It is difficult for those members to listen to the sometimes consistent denigrating of the Defence Forces and its members as if everybody should be painted with the same brush. Both Senators made very important comments, coming at this issue from different angles, although both are very relevant.

Senator Sherlock spoke also about Ms O'Brien. She made a particular call around the use of school property and buildings. I am not familiar with the schools mentioned by the Senator but it might be worth tabling a Commencement matter specifically around the newly published guidelines around the use of school property for after-school use.

Senator Flynn raised issues as she would see them around CervicalCheck and has called for the lowering of the age from 25 to 20 for the start of the screening process.Policy decisions of that nature should be based on evidence and medical fact. I am not against a reduction but I think there is probably a reason for starting at 25. If there were merit in lowering the age, I would certainly have no difficulty with that as long as it were evidence based.

Senator Dolan, who was here earlier, welcomed a group from a local school in Ballinasloe.

Senator Malcolm Byrne raised the issue of fees for criminal barristers, as did Senator Seery Kearney. Both Senators asked for an unwinding of the cuts that were imposed. Criminal barristers are the last public servants to still be facing significant reductions in fees. Senator Seery Kearney spoke about the high attrition rate from the criminal Bar as well and said that needed to be addressed. There was a 10% restoration last year, I believe, but there is still a way to go and I understand the Minister is keen to engage on that.

Senator Craughwell spoke about the Defence Forces and drew attention to recent comments where accusations were levelled at the Defence Forces that they are somehow shielding or hiding criminals within their ranks. I agree with the Senator that remarks of that nature are wholly unfair to a large organisation that serves the country with distinction.

Senator Murphy spoke about Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh and the Irish language, which was a very important point. He was an important advocate and ambassador for the language. The Senator also asked for statements with the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW. I have requested those and will seek an update on when they will happen. I fully agree the Lough Funshinagh matter has not been resolved, and if it is not resolved soon, it will be only a matter of time before we are back into dreadful weather when more homes will be impacted.

Senator Carrigy spoke about issues relating to local schemes and voluntary committees.

Senator Keogan requested a debate on migration. I have requested that debate but it has not been forthcoming. It is open to groups within the Seanad to use their Private Members' time to table motions on a debate, which is another avenue to secure a debate on a matter where I, as Leader, find it difficult to get a Minister to attend on a given topic.

Senator Maria Byrne spoke about Natasha O'Brien and I concur with her remarks, which were very well put in how she referred to her bravery.

Senator Conway made points about suspended sentences and argued they should become a rarity. They do have a role and function and we have to respect the independence of the Judiciary. That is not to say we cannot look at sentencing overall, but suspended sentences do play a role in some instances and they should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Senator Hoey asked for an update on the character references Bill. It is still where it was left and it has not progressed. The Minister was keen to advance the Bill, probably through a miscellaneous Bill of her own, and we are still waiting for that to happen. Recent events have shone a light on the matter. Judges will say references do not influence their decision and that it is the right of a defendant to put forward anything he or she may wish to put forward as part of his or her case, but I think human nature would suggest they probably do influence decisions because one cannot unhear what has been said. We should be well past the stage where somebody is referred to as a great fella, a pillar of the community or a fantastic man in the area despite recent incidents. That has no place and I do not think a victim should have to listen to it. The case should be tried on the evidence before the court and not on somebody's opinion.

To respond to Senator Mullen, I am not sure about getting a debate on the libraries issue but, again, it might be worth tabling a Commencement matter or a Private Members' motion. I would ask that the Senator be concise in respect of whether it comes under the remit of the Minister for Education, the Minister for higher education or the Minister of State with responsibility for local government, given it applies to libraries. I am not sure where it would fit, so it would need to be phrased in a specific way. I take on board the Senator's points. There are varying views out there and it is very hard to keep everybody happy but I take on board the points he made.

I am not familiar with the case Senator Ward raised but I take his point, which he made well, about addressing some of the misinformation that was put out.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I join colleagues in wishing the soon-to-be Commissioner, Michael McGrath, all the best as he moves on to a new role, and Jack Chambers as he also moves to a new role as the Minister for Finance.

I join Members in expressing sympathy to the family of Tommie Gorman, who has passed away in the past few hours and after 41 years of service with RTÉ, including as north-west correspondent. He also served in Brussels from 1989 and, of course, as the Northern editor for many years and was very much involved in understanding and portraying the conflict of Northern Ireland.

I also join colleagues in their comments on Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh and his long service, not just as a teacher, for which he was famous, but also as the trainer of members of the Kerry team who were based in Dublin. He was the one who organised their training. He was also the voice of the summer, the voice of the sport and voice of the nation. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis.