Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. I extend a special welcome to the friends of Senator Clonan - the guests, parents, carers and disabled citizens, all of whom are advocates for disability rights. Céad míle fáilte. This is an important day for them. This is Committee Stage of the Disability (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2023. It is to adjourn at 5.30 p.m., if not previously concluded. There are three sections. I will allow anybody to make a contribution. I presume Senators can make all of their comments in relation to the three sections at the same time. If they wish to come in when I move on to sections 2 and 3, I will allow that.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming along this afternoon for this Bill. I welcome my guests from all over Ireland - proud disabled citizens, parents and carers, all of us advocates for the fundamental human rights of disabled citizens.

On section 1 of the Bill, before I start, I wish to say this is a deceptively short Bill. It may appear to be a small step but it is not. This little Bill is a huge leap forward for the fundamental human rights of disabled citizens in this Irish Republic. The sections as set out, in particular section 1, bring us into line with the rest of the European Union and many other parts of the world, in that they gives statutory rights to disabled citizens for all of the services, supports, therapies and surgeries set out in an assessment of needs. We know of the waiting lists for surgery at Children's Health Ireland where children and young adults are suffering life-altering and life-limiting changes for lack of a surgical intervention in relation to scoliosis and complex spinal surgeries, and of the urology waiting list where their development as human beings has been completely compromised. I know the Minister of State is more aware than possibly anybody in this room of the terrible waiting lists for all conceivable forms of intervention and supports for disabled citizens, whether physiotherapy, occupational therapy or psychological assessments. Section 1(1)(a)(2A) states: "The Executive shall ensure that there are provided in the service statement such of the services identified in the assessment [of need] report" which is a statutory right under the Disability Act 2005. The Bill amends the Disability Act by creating a statutory right to all of the supports and services that are contained within an assessment of need. Critically, those services and supports will be provided in a timely fashion within the therapeutic window. As a society, and a republic, we must catch up with the rest of Europe.

I spoke to one of Ireland's leading surgeons in urology and another in paediatric surgery regarding complex spinal procedures. I asked what the reactions of surgeons would be in children's hospitals in Boston or Montréal, which are centres of excellence, if we got all of the children who are on waiting lists here onto an Airbus and flew them there. The surgeons told me they would be shocked at the condition of our children. As a category of citizens, our disabled children, young adults, older relatives and all of us who become disabled or acquire a disability are one category of citizen in this republic whose rights are routinely and cruelly obstructed and denied. This section, in particular, remedies that.

Our new Taoiseach, Deputy Simon Harris, has given a commitment to, within the lifetime of this Government, fully ratify all of the protocols of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. I took great hope from that statement. I hope he follows through because that will strengthen the aspirations set out in section 1.

We also know from the recent constitutional referendums, in particular the care referendum, that more than 1.2 million people voted to vindicate independent care supports for our disabled citizens so they can have a statutory legal right to independent supports outside of the family in order that they can live with dignity and self-actualise in the social fabric of this republic and in its economic, cultural and artistic arenas. This is a very particular moment, where 1.2 million people demonstrated an aspiration that we fully vindicate the rights of disabled citizens, as we do in other jurisdictions.

I ask the Government not to be afraid of this. We need to be ambitious. It has been put to me at various points since I introduced the Bill last summer that it would create a burden on the State and cost money. Yes, of course it will cost money. The HSE spent €2.3 billion on disability services in 2022. What do we have? We have dysfunction and unmet need. Australia has a national disability insurance scheme. Although not an ideal example, if we transposed it into an Irish setting, it would cost the taxpayer €4 billion per annum to fund what many would consider to be a very reasonable provision of services and independent living supports for disabled citizens.

I have heard figures bandied about in the House. One Minister, who is not here, suggested such a measure would cost €27 billion per annum. That is not the case. It would cost an extra €1.8 billion per annum. That is all. It is a cost, but what price do we put on the fundamental human rights of disabled citizens? To conclude, with regard to giving statutory rights to disabled citizens based on what is set out in the assessment of need, I want to quote from Bernard O’Regan, the head of disability services at the HSE, specifically as it refers to this first section and section 2A. He told the committee that he would welcome a review of the Disability Act 2005 with the intention of providing a statutory right to services as this would establish parity between a right to an assessment and a right to access services. Mr. O’Regan suggested that due to the advantageous status of an assessment of need as a statutory right, it is necessary for the HSE to prioritise it over the provision of therapeutic supports. What we are suggesting, and this is from the HSE itself, is an enhancement of the Act so it incorporates a right to services as well as a right to assessment. That is what this Bill is about. Mr. O’Regan added that “until we equalise the right to an assessment with the right to a service, there will be a disproportionate orientation of one towards the other”. In fact, what it means is that we have an absence of meaningful services.

I know the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has a huge commitment to this area. I know that since her appointment as Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities - I hope I am not being unfair in saying this - she has been frustrated at times by a lack of co-operation and compliance from the HSE. When the Taoiseach put in place this new committee within the Office of the Taoiseach, at its first meeting, if I am correctly informed, the HSE did not turn up or send a representative. That is another outflow of this legislation. If it gets to Final Stage and, I hope, is introduced in the Dáil, it would compel the HSE and all the officers of the State and its agencies to fully vindicate the rights of persons with disabilities. Everything in this Bill aligns with the aspirations of the HSE, with the aspirations of the Government and with every single policy document that has been published by the Government on disability rights, up to and including the initiative that the Minister of State launched with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, in December.

I thank everybody who co-signed and co-sponsored the Bill from the Green Party, Sinn Féin, Labour, the Civil Engagement Group and my colleagues in the Seanad Independent Group. I am delighted to see them here today. I do not know what the Minister of State is going to say today but I ask the Government not to oppose the Bill and, if possible, to support it. Maybe it is a conversation we can have after this afternoon’s debate.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Before I move to agree section 1, two other speakers are offering. I call Senator Boyhan, to be followed by Senator Higgins.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will take up the option of covering off the three sections here and now. I welcome the Minister of State and thank her for her time and her commitment to this area, which I know is a major priority for her. I thank Senator Clonan for introducing the Bill and also the co-sponsors of the Bill, which includes the Independents, Civil Engagement Group, Labour Party, Sinn Féin and Green Party.

This is a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Disability Act 2005 and the Equal Status Act 2000 and to provide for related matters. That is the framework within which the Bill is being proposed. As Senator Clonan said, it has three sections so it is a pretty simple and self-explanatory Bill. There are no amendments, which is a point in itself. I believe the Government will support it, although there are concerns. The Government is the Government and it has to have an overview on it. However, Senator Clonan has made an exceptionally good, strong opening on this stage of the Bill and I thank him for that.There are some points I reflected on before coming in. Ireland is currently the only country in the European Union that has no legal requirement to provide all the supports listed in the assessment of need. Ireland lags behind many European countries regarding disability. People are entitled to a lot of supports but too often, these rights exist on paper alone. As a result, people are not always given the supports they need and are entitled to. They are cut off from the community and often relegated to nursing homes. That is the reality whether we like it or not. I know people suffering that fate. They are in nursing homes and should not be there but that is the support they have been given. People have a right to work and engage with their communities and a right to appropriate supports and services. In many cases, they are being denied. Everyone should have the opportunity to live a full, purposeful and meaningful life and to make choices about his or her own life. That is particularly important when you have a disability and you have so many abilities. That is an issue that needs to be addressed. At worst, some people end up institutionalised. We have a dark history of institutionalisation that we have to overcome. It is a slow process. We talk about emptying residential settings and about independence, dignity and respect for people who wish to live a full and meaningful life and avail of all their entitlements.

Ireland is in the process of ratifying the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the Government has committed to ratifying the optional protocol. This would provide an accountability mechanism were a person's rights under the UNCRPD to be violated. That is an important point. This is in place in order that people will have that mechanism in the event of violations of their rights.

As Senator Clonan did, I acknowledge the Taoiseach is a strong advocate for people with disabilities, as is the Minister of State. The Taoiseach understands how physical and mental difficulties can impact on a person's life. He has his own personal experiences. He championed issues in terms of disabilities long before he came into politics. He shares Senator Clonan's vision of a fairer place for everyone and particularly has a strong focus on disabilities, as he indicated when he became Taoiseach. The UNCRPD helps to ensure people with disabilities are integrated into the community. That surely is a priority for everyone and I doubt anyone is against that. Everything in this Bill is consistent with the UNCRPD and would help to ensure Ireland adheres to its terms. While we have different groupings in this House and the Dáil, we all wish to see everybody included and given the rights and access they deserve.

I have worked in the disability charity sector. I have been a director of Irish Guide Dogs for the Blind. I have been involved in the deaf community as well. I have brought many of them into this House because it is important that they come here. I welcome the guests on both sides of this Chamber today and the many people tuning in to this debate because it is an important one.

Another reason the Bill should pass is it demonstrates the relevance of these Houses to the people outside of them, particularly the relevance of the Seanad. The Seanad was set up, in principle, for minority voices. It is a forum and an opportunity to give voice to people who otherwise would not have it. It is an opportunity for Senators to shine a light in some dark places. If we do nothing else but use this forum, this Chamber and our voice to shine a light, give voice and articulate concerns of people outside, we will have done a really good day's work.

I thank Senator Clonan. He is not only an academic but someone with a family and with lived experience of disability. He knows every day of his life the challenges for people with a disability and their family members. It really brings it home when he talks about and shares, as he does every day in this House, his and his family's lived experience, and that of the people he represents and meets through a network of advocacy he has championed for many years.Fair play to him. He has consistently articulated the views of people with disabilities and their rights. We want to be and should be an exemplar in access, equality, allowing people to develop their full potential and full ability and allowing people with disabilities to get all the services, and more, to which they are entitled. I commend this Bill to the House and I look forward to hearing the Minister of State’s response. While I note the Minister of State’s absolute commitment to it, I also know she is in government and there are bigger issues and big demands in respect of the reserves and resources. However, I believe we can come together. This Bill is a critical and important part of this process. I hope that the Minister of State and the Government will be in a position, as will be we in this House and the Dáil, to support this imaginative yet simple legislation that will be very effective.

Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I commend Senator Clonan on tabling this legislation. I am proud to be one of the co-sponsors of it, along with my Civil Engagement Group colleagues, namely, Senators Ruane, Black and Flynn. I am glad to be able to support its passage and am hopeful the Government also will allow and support its passage and progression through this House. It is an important opportunity to send a signal in terms of a new and better approach to disability.

Section 1 gets to the core of one of the core issues. I sat for a number of months on the disability committee before my colleague, Senator Flynn, took my place. The issue of assessment of need came up repeatedly. At the end of last year, 8,900 children were classified as being overdue for assessment of need under the Disability Act. There also was something the committee saw repeatedly, whereby one almost would get the assessment of need but then it was a case of one having been assessed as having needs but that one would be obliged to wait a little bit longer for those concerned to identify what the needs were and, more importantly, what the supports were. Then, one will wait an infinitely long period of time, which, for children, are crucial developmental years when they are shaping their future selves and future lives. Their minds are bursting and they want to be exploring and engaging in the world. Those are the years that are getting lost. There are three tiers – the assessment that you may have needs, the assessment of what they might be and then this extra infinite wait for services. That is why this Bill is so important.

Article 25 of the UNCRPD provides that "persons with disabilities have the right to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health without discrimination on the basis of disability". When we have almost 9,000 children who cannot even get an assessment of needs or the healthcare, therapeutics and services they need, that has a cost for each individual. We talked about the cost to the State. As Senator Clonan has outlined, it is actually not that large a cost for a State to make itself genuinely compliant with UN standards and a better and fairer place to live for all of its citizens. However, right now, there is still a cost because a cost is being carried by individuals with disabilities and their families.

Regarding the referendum, unfortunately, I understand the intent of many who voted but the language we still have in the Constitution is just language about mothers’ duties in the home. It does not contain the kind of emancipatory language that we might hope for, for example, like what we saw in Spain. Spain now has brought forward a change to its constitution that states that public administrations will pursue policies that guarantee the complete autonomy and social inclusion of people with disabilities. That is the Spanish constitution. To be clear, while a message was sent by many who voted, the Constitution we are left with now is an unequal Constitution that just speaks about mothers’ duties in the home, not in the wider world, and frames back into that institutionalisation piece.There is scope for more emancipatory language. What this Bill also sets out is that people need the legal tools. They need real tools. That point has been well made. Article 13 of the UNCRPD states:

States ... shall ensure effective access to justice for persons with disabilities on an equal basis with others, including through the provision of procedural and age-appropriate accommodations ... including as witnesses, in all legal proceedings, including at investigative and other preliminary stages.

Section 1 of the Bill will further Ireland's compliance by legislating not only to give each individual the right to treatment but, crucially, the right to treatment that is justiciable before our courts. It is important that they have the right to hold the State to account and that the Oireachtas, in passing this legislation, which I hope will have a speedy journey, not just through this House but also through the Dáil, can put it to this Government and future governments that when the State fails its citizens by failing to provide proper access to the healthcare and services they need to live full lives as citizens, it will be breaking a law of this Republic and will be held to account in the courts in a justiciable way.

I am taking the opportunity, as mentioned, to briefly flag an issue relating to section 2. I commend one particular point, namely, the one relating to public transport. I signal that this is something which a former Senator, John Dolan, who many may recall, tried to specifically address in the community participation Bill. We were co-sponsors of that legislation. If the Bill had been passed and it was in place, we would not have the disgraceful situation where we still see a public body giving contracts to private operators who cannot, will not or are not required to deliver transport that is accessible to disabled people to ensure they can move around within the State on an equal basis. I am really glad that Senator Clonan has included a specific provision on public transport operators in the new subsection 2A(a)(vi) of section 2 of the Dublin Transport Authority Act. It is not a mistake or an oversight at this point. There has been a systematic refusal to move forward. This is something that Senator Dolan and many others have been flagging for close to a decade.

I again commend Senator Clonan. I am very happy to support the Bill. I urge the Government to support it.

Mark Wall (Labour)
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I am very proud to be a cosignatory of the Bill. I thank Senator Clonan for asking us to cosign it. I also thank him for his continued advocacy for disability services and people with disabilities, and all the services they should be entitled to access. It is something I deal with daily, be it in the area of transport, education or housing provision or in access to healthcare.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. She will not be surprised when I again bring up the assessment of need. It is something I have discussed with her in this Chamber as a Commencement matter and on Second Stage of this Bill and I will use this opportunity to raise it again.

Section 1(2) refers to the amendment of section 12A of the Disability Act, which outlines that it is the duty of the Minister to make resources available as part of this Bill. It states:

The Minister shall with the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, provide such moneys and other resources as are determined by him or her for the purposes of the preparation and implementation of assessment reports prepared in respect of a person with a disability.

The Minister of State will be aware, as Senator Higgins mentioned, of the large number of families who are waiting on assessments of need for their loved ones. It now stands at almost 9,000. She will also be aware that in my area, CHO 7, the figure is the highest in the country, at well over 2,000 families and their loved ones. That is what this Bill is all about.

I just want to read a letter I got from a family about their loved one. I raised this with the Minister of State previously, including at the autism committee.I refer to the assessment of need as the piece of paper. I have been told time and again that an assessment of need is not needed to access health services or any service that should be provided. However, this letter from a GP was sent to me yesterday. It states:

The above child is under the care and treatment of CAMHS. She is currently awaiting a full assessment of need in view of ASD. The delay in diagnosis is contributing to a possible delay in treatment. See letter attached.

The attached letters - I will not go into them all - detail the treatment this young child is not getting because she has not had an assessment of need. It is in black and white. That is one of a number of letters I have received over a long period. With one voice we tell these families they do not need an assessment of need to access services, yet GPs and consultants are saying they do need one.

Time and again, when I raised this matter, the Minister of State challenged the HSE on it. I refer her to a debate in the Dáil last August on a Labour Party motion on autism. The Minister of State publicly said she would support the use of public money to allow people to access assessments of need. Where does that stand today? From responses to recent parliamentary questions we have seen, it seems we are still not up and running with the use of public moneys to allow people to get the assessment of need their families need. It is also coming out loud and clear that the six regional centres the Minister of State promised on the day of the debate are up and running but at different levels at this stage. We need a push.

This is what Senator Clonan's Disability (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2023 is about. Families contact me day in and day out, as I am sure they contact the Minister of State's office. I have been in contact with her office time and again about families in Kildare who come to me crying and say their loved ones are not getting services because they are being asked for an assessment of need. Will the Minister give an update on those six regional hubs? Where are they? There seems to be differences between each of the regional hubs. The one in CHO 7, in my region, does not seem to be up to speed with some of the others because the wait for an assessment of need is getting longer.

People come back to say no money is available for an assessment of need. I can send them on to the Minister of State's office, as I have done in recent weeks and months but that is the bottom line. I appreciate the Minister of State may say it is not true, but I can send her the letters. I put on record that it is what is being said to people.

Unfortunately, the Minister of State was not available to respond the previous time I raised a Commencement matter, and I accept that. When I read out a letter the last time, that is the reply I got about assessments of need. That is what I am getting, and it is why this Bill is so important. We need resources for these families. I support the Minister of State, the Government and, most important, the families and their loved ones who need an assessment of need. The Government needs to act now.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House. On behalf of Sinn Féin, I commend my colleague, Senator Clonan, not only on bringing this Bill before the House but also on all his tireless work on disability issues.

People with additional needs, their families, friends and communities have been failed by the State for a long time now, yet we are one of the richest countries in the world. What is our vision for our country? Is it a society in which all citizens, including those with additional needs, are offered equal access and equal opportunity or is it something else? In Sinn Féin's view, this Bill represents an important first step in ensuring people with additional needs have access to assessments, services and the support they need. I thank Senator Clonan for allowing me and my colleagues the privilege of co-signing the Bill.

As the Ombudsman and Senator Clonan have said, one of the problems that needs to be addressed is recruitment. The most recent HSE staff census and workforce review published in February 2022 highlighted a staff vacancy rate of 34%. That amounts to 707 vacancies and an increase of almost 10% on the previous 12 months. We do not have the figures for last year yet.

In budget 2024, the Government announced an allocation of approximately €11 million to address waiting lists for clinical assessments. We were told this funding would be utilised to procure diagnostic ASD assessments from the private sector. Almost a year later, we are still waiting for this to be rolled out to parents. If the Government is serious about addressing this issue, it must address the crisis in recruitment and retention. That begins with ensuring these commitments are honoured. The time to support people with additional needs is now.It is time for the Government to step up to the plate, invest in disability services and honour the commitments it has made. I ask everyone in the House to support this Bill so that we can build a more just, inclusive and equal Ireland. I commend Senator Clonan and welcome all of our guests to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
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I was not going to speak today. I just came down to listen but as I listened to Senator Clonan and others, the words of James Connolly came to mind.

Some men, faint-hearted, ever seek

Our programme to retouch,

And will insist, whene’er they speak

That we demand too much.

’Tis passing strange, yet I declare

Such statements give me mirth,

For our demands most moderate are,

We only want the earth.

These words from Connolly's 1907 poem, "We Only Want the Earth", stand true today when we say we only want the earth. Disabled people only want to be able to live and thrive in a world that has been designed, unfortunately, by mankind to keep them out. We only want to be able to access services we need in order to be able to live a full life. It is right and proper that, as this Bill proposes, the denial of these services should be illegal and that the Government be held to account for any delays or lack of services in the future.

I have outlined before the experience that my family and I have had in caring for our father. Some day, when I am ready, but not today, I will speak about my own experience of becoming disabled and the process of being welcomed into the disabled community and that really caring, wonderful group of caring activists who have helped me through my own journey in that.

I will now briefly reflect on the Bill. Senator Clonan said it is a small Bill with big change. We might call it "The little Bill that could" because it outlines what could be done for enable people if enacted. All of us know about the cost of assessments of need. I do not mean the financial cost, although it too is of concern, but the cost to individuals and their families who are waiting with what feels like no end in sight. My colleague, Senator Wall, outlined the impact of not having an assessment of need, having an assessment of need and the back and forth that we know people go through. Individuals are suffering without their needs being met. We know the cost of not having a fully staffed sector. Both Houses, but especially the Seanad, have discussed have discussed section 39 workers. We have discussed at length the pay and conditions and problems of retention in the sector. These are all issues the Government can do something about now. I know the Minister of State has been looking into them.

I am proud to have co-signed this Bill, along with my Labour Party colleagues. I am less proud that we need the Bill and about what it says about us as a society - this is not a reflection on individuals – that we persist in denying disabled people their basic needs. I hope the tide has turned. I think the Bill is a reflection of where we are as a society; not only that we are seeking legislative change to try to improve the lives and conditions of disabled people and carers and the people who support them but also that we are seeing a societal change. I am aware of the Minister of State’s personal commitment to the cause, particularly in her campaign to move disability from the health model into the social model.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
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I hope the Government will support her in the work she is doing on that. I also hope the Bill will not be opposed but, rather, ushered through with enthusiasm and haste.

I thank all the visitors in the Chamber and those who are not here and have advocated for themselves or their loved ones for too long. I look forward to a day when disabled people have their needs met and their families are supported and we have a society in which every individual can thrive to the fullness of their ability. Until that day, let us get this Bill passed and continue on this journey of enabling disabled people to live their lives.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Carrigy and I wish to recognise the work he is doing on autism. I am glad to be a member of that committee with him. Every time I say I am coming to the final speaker, the list grows, which is very positive. We have a few more to go. I call Senator McGreehan.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of the State to the House. I very much welcome the opportunity to contribute. I wish I had the opportunity to sign to Senator Clonan's Bill but I was not asked to sign it. Members were reading out the list of colleagues who are signatories to this Bill, but I was not asked to sign it. I absolutely would have signed it and when it came in on Second Stage, we supported it. I hope this Bill will assist the Minister of State to make her job a little easier because we need investment in and delivery of services. The Minister of State works every day of the week on supporting staff to deliver. I do not disagree with anything any of the previous speakers because we are all here for the same cause. Every child deserves access to services and the best opportunities to thrive and not just survive. There are so many families who contact me day in and day out who are just exhausted. I do not know how many letters I have written or phone calls I have made relating to an assessment of need or getting an appointment for occupational therapy or speech or language or whatever the case may be.It is a small thing for us to do, as elected representatives, but when there is a result it is huge. Its a sign of a broken system when people have to go to their elected representatives to get a service. I hope the Taoiseach stands by his word and ratifies the optional protocol. We need that and it has been called for endlessly at the disability matters committee, of which I am a member.

I welcome the Bill and the opportunity to speak on it. As Senator Hoey said, it is a small Bill with big ambition that will make big changes. We all have that same ambition for every child and person with disabilities in this country.

I have just left a meeting of the transport committee where I listened to Senator Higgins talking about access to transport. We have huge problems with transport in this country but it was nearly two hours into the committee meeting before disability or accessibility was mentioned. I question the National Transport Authority's interest in developing and creating an accessible service and I have said that on many occasions.

I wish the Minister of State luck in bringing this Bill through the Houses. It is about delivery. With or without this Bill, we all want to see the delivery of services, the protection of children, investment in the services and the 800 staff needed being put in place. It was a big win for the Minister of State when she ensured that there was no recruitment ban in the disability services sector. That was hard fought. There is no recruitment ban in this area and people are being hired. That was a win for the Minister of State and the children who need those services.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Our next speaker is Senator Flynn. I hope you are refreshed after your visit to Roscommon yesterday, Senator. You are welcome back to the Chamber today.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I surely to God am. Thank you, Acting Chair.

I thank Senator Clonan for all of his work on issues that impact people with disabilities in Irish society and his work on the autism committee. It is clear that in this House and on the disability matters committee, people genuinely care about the rights of people with disabilities and we are making some progress. Having the expertise of people like Senator Clonan and Senator Higgins, who is a member of the disability matters committee and has been doing this work for a lot longer than I have, is such an education for us all. I remember on one of my first days at the disability matters committee how it just clicked with me that people are not disabled; rather, society disables people with disabilities. Every single Wednesday at meetings of the committee, I find myself shaking because I am afraid I am going to get the language wrong. I do not want to offend people and I know there are Senators here who probably feel the same when it comes to Traveller issues and the use of words like "them" and "they". I know exactly what it is like not to have access to services and how difficult that must be for people with disabilities and their families. I was delighted, therefore, to co-sign the Bill with Senator Clonan. However, this is not about whether we signed it because the Bill is just a piece of paper. This is really about implementing the amendment to the Act of 2005 that Senator Clonan has put forward. That is really important. For far too long, we have been talking about how people with disabilities should have access to services. Having access to a service is one thing but getting the supports through a service is a horse of a different colour. It is very difficult. Again, we talk about access to education. We all have that access but the opportunity to be successful within the system is totally different.

I have learned from being a member of the disability committee that people with autism and other additional or special needs are denied access to mental health supports and services.Come on. People can have a disability, but they can have a mental health issue as well. People with a disability have minds like the rest of us, as do young children. They should be getting that adequate support our children deserve. It is on record at the disability committee that the chief executive - I do not want to put words in anybody's mouth or get it wrong - said that it is inequality and blatant discrimination that children with autism do not have equal access to mental health services in this country.

It is about accommodation for children with additional needs, as well as employment. We spoke about employment at the disability committee last week. Some people with or without disabilities enjoy packing boxes but that should not be the only job for people with disabilities. There are people with disabilities who can work in offices, who should be given that equality of opportunity, and not just push around trolleys and pack boxes, although of course if people choose that, they should be given that opportunity.

I will not go on and on, although I could. I am so passionate about equality of opportunity for people with disabilities. The Bill is a step in the right direction. We could sit here from now until Christmas talking about disability rights, but it is really about implementation. I know the Minister of State's heart is in the right place. It is not only her heart; she puts her money where her mouth is. I have every faith that she will act on these actions, if the Government agrees to support the Bill. I hope the Government will do that. If the Minister of State supports the Bill, I know she will give it not 100% but 150%.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator. Those were practical points that were very well made in this debate.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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Mar aon le Seanadóirí eile, ní raibh mé chun labhairt ar an mBille anseo. Tháinig mé toisc gur iarr an Seanadóir Seery Kearney orm a bheith anseo agus ár dtacaíocht a thabhairt don Bhille. Ach nuair a bhí mé ag éisteacht leis na Seanadóirí eile, cheapas go raibh rud éigin le rá agam.

I wanted to pay tribute to Senator Clonan, my neighbour in Blackrock, for the work he has done, not just on this Bill but on this issue, in highlighting it, sharing his real-world experience of it with everybody in the House and the Government, and pushing it to the forefront. In mentioning Blackrock, I am also conscious of all the people here. I see Ms Emma Weld-Moore from Neurodiversity Ireland in Blackrock. She recently attended a public meeting there with Dan Carson, a new young local election candidate. The amount of interest in that meeting was testament to how these issues and the whole spectrum of them enormously affect everyone. I sometimes think we sound like we are speaking in a vacuum but there is not an extended family in this country that is not affected by disability. Everybody has something they deserve help with.

I wanted to say one thing in respect of this Bill, the section, and what Senator Clonan said about this being a small, short Bill that will achieve a great deal. The Minister of State will see the people in the Public Gallery. All of us know of the people in the areas where we live who are so committed to improving the simple things that can be done to make lives easier and more accessible for everyone and to bring that inclusion to everyone. When we see that commitment in our communities, the least the Government can do is match that commitment. What is in the Bill is an opportunity for the Government to put its money where its mouth is, to match that commitment and to put in place clear lines to give effect, for example, to service statements and other things like that. This is so that when people, such as those who have come here, including people who are liaising with Senator Clonan and who contact us all, come with an issue, there will actually be a mechanism in the Government, and the State will be there to match that commitment and deliver for those people in the way we know we can.

One of the matters I am particularly alive to is the amendment to section 11 of the Disability Act 2005. We must make sure there are not blockages or bureaucracy that stops things being done, and that there is not a situation where the left hand, within the Civil Service or the provision of State services in the HSE or whatever it is, is not talking to the right hand. Let them all come together.Let us get it done because we know we can do better for people who need the assistance of the State. Let us do better. I commend the Bill to the House and offer my support.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I welcome the Disability (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2023 and the importance of this legislation regarding people with disabilities. I commend Senator Clonan on being the driving force behind this and I was happy to move this Bill into the House in its initial Stages. This Bill would create a legal requirement to provide all supports listed in an assessment of need. It is highly disappointing that Ireland is currently the only country in the European Union that has no legal requirement to provide all of the supports listed in an assessment of need.

This Bill was circulated to the Whips of all parties they refused to sign it. In the last debate in this House, the Government proposed an amendment to defer the Bill for 12 months. Senator McDowell then informed the House that the Government could decide not to appoint tellers. This led to the amendment being lost and the Bill passed Second Stage in the Seanad. Those are the facts of where why we are here today.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, that is not right.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator will get an opportunity.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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This is a welcome development as since the last debate, the Government has given a commitment to ratify the optional protocol of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. This would provide an accountability mechanism, were a person's rights under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities being violated. A UN committee would also be responsible for overseeing, over which the Irish Government would not be able to appoint people and this would create an accountability mechanism.

The Government also published a Green Paper on disability allowance that would introduce a tiered system for disability payments. I note this was opposed by Senator Clonan in a Private Members' business, PMB, motion, along with other grassroots groups. The Government later decided not to pursue this.

The Government chose to say it would strive to support the provision of care. It defied the recommendations of the citizens' assembly and did not recognise care within the wider community, a violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, among others, attempted to argue this would create a greater obligation on the State because those in need of care could take the State to court. The defeat of the care referendum in the spring and the campaigning of the carers and their organisation for a "No" vote shows that even when a tokenistic constitutional acknowledgement was offered, it was rejected because it was simply not good enough. People with disabilities and those who provide care deserve strong State supports and entitlements.

The leak of the Attorney General's advice made it clear that there would be no specific legal obligation on the State. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, also withheld the interdepartmental minutes in which legal wording that would have placed a clear obligation on the State was discussed. A costing exercise was mentioned in the interdepartmental minutes. Shamefully, this is a Government that does not do enough to support disability and carer's rights strongly enough.

The failure of the referendum and the opposition to the constitutional amendment from disability rights groups in part reflects a desire for a stronger commitment and not tokenism. I therefore welcome this Bill as a step in the direction of better provisions for people and hope it succeeds in creating a legal requirement to provide all supports listed in an assessment of need.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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While Senator Dolan had not indicated, does she wish to speak?

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the importance of accessibility and of this Bill. Senator Clonan is raising a lot of things we in government are reviewing and looking at as well. I wanted to highlight the work at regional level that we see across the likes of Roscommon and Galway. I ask the Minister of State to address this in her response but I wish to highlight the just transition programme currently available to a number of counties in the midlands, as well as to the likes of Ballinasloe municipal district in Galway. One of its elements is for businesses to enable them to look at accessibility. Something we see, even here in Leinster House as an example, is the installation of a ramp to be able to access the gallery of former taoisigh.Representatives of the Roscommon accessibility group came up only two weeks ago and there are certain challenges in respect of physical accessibility.

I highlight that just transition funding is available for enterprises and businesses. Perhaps the Minister of State has some thoughts about how we can encourage groups to apply for funding. The deadline for funding is the end of this year.

I thank the accessibility groups which did an awful lot of work. We have seen the importance of the advocacy of accessibility groups when it comes to our towns. We are seeing a lot of town centre first funding for the likes of Strokestown and Roscommon, as Senator Murphy knows well. It is about how we make our footpaths accessible and include people in the planning process around the town centre first funding and follow-on funding through the rural regeneration and development fund or the urban regeneration and development fund for the development of our towns. It can sometimes be a simple thing, such as where we locate an accessible parking spot. In some of the toilets in Leinster House, for example, there is not enough space or capacity for people to turn around. User feedback is very important. I highlight that there are challenges in rural areas. There are financial supports for businesses that may wish to avail of them in order to support all customers and to make their businesses more accessible.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Before I bring in the Minister of State, I want to say the following. When I am in the Chair, I am fair and independent, and I think most people would accept that. Two Senators have asked for the opportunity to clarify a small point. I am not going to allow big speeches. I ask all Senators to do that with respect. There are people in the House who are relying on us to do the right thing and I do not think they want to see slagging matches. In fairness, two speakers have asked me for the opportunity to make clarifications. Senator Clonan was first and Senator McGreehan was second. I ask them to make their points, which they are entitled to do.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I want to speak to sections 2 and 3.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I thought the Senator wished to clarify something that was said.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I do not.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is happy.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I will explain when I address sections 2 and 3.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I will come in briefly. I absolutely agree with what Senator Keogan has said. We went against the Cabinet on the day in question and it was a victory for disability rights.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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All of us on this side of the House risked our necks a little because we are in this together.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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That was what I wanted to say. We did not put forward tellers on that occasion and were delighted to have that loophole and not to get a slapping.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I have allowed the clarification. Before we deal with the sections, I think we are all very interested to hear from the Minister of State. The floor is hers.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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At what time is the debate to adjourn? I want to allow Senator Clonan to speak to sections 2 and 3.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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We have until 5.30 p.m. if we have not finished before then.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is great. I thank the Acting Chairperson. I also thank Senator Clonan for the opportunity to be here for Committee Stage of the Bill. If it was simple, it would have been done many years ago. Is that not the case? We would not be sitting here today. It is important to say that I will not be opposing the Bill by any manner of means. That is the first point.

I want to talk to the Senator and the colleagues who have supported him about how this small Bill is a big chance to make a difference. There is a legitimate public policy aim behind the proposed statutory duty to provide disability-related services at or before the point when a person ideally requires them. The Department shares the aim of the Senators and their intent that all persons in need of health services from the State would receive them without delay. Achievement of that goal is inevitably frustrated by the fact that the State has limited resources, many competing obligations and, most importantly in this instance, the presence of a highly competitive labour market. Staffing issues are not being caused by the lack of financial resources. Over the years, as the population grew, we did not grow our college places to meet demand. That is the resource piece I spoke to.

Children's disability network teams, CDNTs, with whatever staffing resources are available at a particular time, have responsibility for assessments of need and therapy intervention services. The amendment, by mandating services in addition to the assessments of need, could create an overwhelming demand on CDNTs.It is important to say that. It is also incumbent on the Government and various Departments to increase the number of trainees or assistant therapists coming through to be able to meet the demand.

I would also like to speak about a few of the contributors. It is important to start with the Taoiseach, who put in place the Cabinet subcommittee and included disability as part and parcel of it. I have been a Minister of State for four years and it was only my second time two weeks ago to attend a Cabinet subcommittee. I will now be attending a Cabinet subcommittee regularly at which disabilities will be front and centre and will be an agenda item for discussion every two weeks, led out by the Taoiseach. I really welcome that as it means I have a platform to address some of the frustrations I have experienced over the past number of years.

I was listening to Senator Wall. He spoke about assessment of need, CHO 7 and regional assessment hubs. They are my frustrations; there is no doubt about it. I cannot say that the hubs are all perfect by any manner or means but there was no regional assessment hub when I stood before the House this time last year. It was an agenda item which I created within the HSE to be put in. I am not a clinician; I am a politician. I do not work for the HSE. I am a Minister of State within a Department. All I have done is try to itemise, identify where we could potentially find solutions and put connectivities in place. The regional assessment hubs are by no means perfect but if there were regional assessment officers in all of them, we could possibly get through the files as they are completed on a quicker basis in order that children can get the most important piece of what we are talking about today, namely, that intervention. Our goal should be to drive down assessments. We should be driving interventions as opposed to assessments. That is where we need to get to.

On funding, it is important to say that in that space of assessments, €11.5 million was laid out, then there was another €4.5 million in this budget and another €8.5 million. Some €16 million went into that space between the PDS and the assessment of need in order for the HSE to stand up and implement the will of the Government and elected representatives to operationalise what is required for our most vulnerable citizens, that is,to give the assessments and then to ensure the interventions are met.

Senator Warfield spoke about recruitment and retention, which is a whole part of this. When we look at recruitment and retention, we have to look at them in the case of both therapists who can provide the intervention and other therapists who can provide the assessments. I chair a high-level group with all Departments on what we are doing in higher education to ensure there is expansion of spaces and more capacity, what assistant therapists might look like, whether there is a pay grade and whether it has been sorted out with the union. I am talking about trivial stuff but we are coming from a low base within disability in trying to put structure and shape to it. We are making some progress. The Senator is right, however, as is Senator Hoey in respect of section 39 organisations. We still do not have the KOSI process completed by all of our section 39 providers. There are 1,300 section 39 providers and only 200 of the KOSI forms have been completed to enable staff to get their wages and back payment paid. It is a very fair point. I hope that when the KOSI process is put in place, once and for all, the next piece of the pay and negotiation piece will be the conversation around aligning to the section 38 organisations and the HSE in order that all staff have an equal pay footing across the board.

Senator Carrigy spoke about the Disability Act. I do not disagree with him or with his committee's perspective on whether we should review it. The Disability Act is 20 years old. I will be gazing forward at the Disability Act to ensure my lens gets to it in the coming months. The Senator Carrigy is right; it has to be the same chance for all children to access assessments and interventions. I say this with the best will in the world but we can no longer have the trumping of assessments and interventions.People should not have to ring a politician or go to a Senator to ask them to write a letter so that people can access a school place. It is a broken system that needs to be shaped correctly so that it works for all, regardless of where people live and their socioeconomic environment. The system has to work equitably for all. We are all at one in both Houses when it comes to disability.

Senator McGreehan said every child deserves the same chance and the system is broken. That is absolutely true. While the transport piece does not speak completely to me and I might have some influence, it has a long way to go to meet the rights of equity of access for all.

Senator Flynn spoke very clearly about employment and equality of opportunity. That comes down to a choice-based approach. Everybody has a choice to make decisions, but if we do not have the proper accommodation, how can we expect people to participate in employment?

Senator Ward referred to this being a small Bill and matching commitment. There is no shortage to my commitment; all I need is time to do what I need to do. I do not believe there is any shortage in commitment in the Seanad. We need time to do things. If this was easy, it would have been done long ago. This is not easy, but we will work to ensure that every child can access the services they require. There is no denying that there are blockages. We need to unparcel the blockages and learn from the issues there have been with assessments of need. There have been many issues within that system. When we ask how we arrive at a stage where there are no timely interventions for assessments of need, we do not need to create a hierarchy in respect of interventions. We have to learn from what has caused the blockages.

Senator Dolan referred to just transition. Just transition includes disability and youth, two parts that were not originally included. As I said at the beginning of my contribution, I will not oppose the Bill. I do not say this is simple or easy, but we will support the Bill through the Houses.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to cut the debate short, but it is important for me and everybody else here to pass this Bill this evening and not allow it go to another day. We have until 5.30 p.m. to debate the Bill and I will give everybody their say. I ask Senators to be conscious of what we are trying to achieve here today and get it done, and not put it off to another day, which would probably be next week.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I will also speak to section 3. I will have no more to say; I want to be brief.

Section 2(1) to 2(6), inclusive, place disability rights on a legislative basis, therefore, making them fundamental human rights. That is consistent with the Government's campaign from last autumn and into the winter. Disability rights are human rights. I am mandated, under the UNCRPD, as a parent and carer, to speak to the rights and lived experience of disabled citizens. I am not just permitted to do this; I am actually mandated to do this by the UNCRPD. As parents, because we do not have the experience of a rights-based approach to disability in Ireland, there is a lot of unmet need. That creates pain and trauma in families all over the Republic. I worry so much about my son and what will happen to him, in particular when I die, that it robs me of interactions with my other children, who are adults and teenagers. I know many Senators share that experience of trauma.We are always worried. We are always fearful. It is a fear of the unknown and it brings with it this huge sadness. To be honest, it robs people of the enjoyment of life. We are not emotionally available for our children and for our partners. It is a really destructive thing because it is not human rights-based. This section remedies that.

I know that placing the services on a legislative footing and giving disabled citizens a statutory right to services and therapies would create a demand that is challenging for budget and resources, but that demand exists already. It is just not recognised in law and, as a consequence, we find that our needs are not met. I make the point that placing things on a statutory basis and giving people human rights is a fundamental principle of our democracies and we must not flinch from it. This legislation would correct that hierarchy between assessment of need and the provision of services and therapies, as the Minister of State highlighted with regard to section 2. It would not make it any worse; it would actually remedy and rectify that.

With regard to the Short Title, collective citation and commencement, section 3(1) states: "This Act may be cited as the Disability (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023." However, it is really a disability rights Bill. We see how states and democracies seek to address the concerns and needs of categories of citizens by way of vindication of their rights through law. That is what we do as legislators, and this is a disability rights Bill.

At the beginning of the debate, I thanked everybody who had co-signed the Bill from the Labour Party, Sinn Féin, the Civic Engagement Group and my colleagues in the Seanad Independent Group. I also want to thank my colleagues in Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Greens who have supported me from across the floor. I really want to register my gratitude for that. I particularly recognise the contributions of Senator McGreehan. For me, as a parent and a carer, it was great to come to the Committee on Disability Matters and see her absolute commitment and her passion for the rights of disabled citizens. I referred earlier to the fear and the trauma, but when I see that commitment, it is very helpful and reassuring to know that we are not alone, as it were. I thank her personally for that. I also thank Senator Carrigy for all of the work that he does.

In Ireland, whether you have a physical disability, a so-called intellectual disability or are neurodiverse, we are all in the same community. It is about coming together - disabled citizens, neurodiverse citizens, parents, carers, traumatised people and people with acquired conditions. According to the World Health Organization, every single one of us will become disabled at some point in our life. That is normally towards the end of life but people also become disabled through road traffic collisions and through acquired brain injuries. This legislation benefits every citizen in the State.

I thank the Minister of State for not opposing the Bill. I ask her to please support it and, hopefully, at some point, we can have a conversation about introducing this in the Dáil. I also thank those who are not here but who supported us last summer and, as Senator McGreehan said, took a risk on the night. People really showed that this is a House that has a voice and makes a difference.I commend Senator McGreehan, Senator Carrigy and all my colleagues for the support I have received. When Senator Hoey talked about "the Bill that could" and said it was a small Bill, I thought she was going to say "A small Bill from a small man". I do not know where this fear came from.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
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What do you think of me?

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I think this goes back to a childhood fear I may have had.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
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It was a Thomas the Tank Engine reference.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for his flexibility in allowing me to speak again.

I think this is a great moment. It brings us into line with the rest of the European Union and other states. We spend so much of our lives fighting. Apart from the fear, trauma and upset, so much time is spent fighting. In my case, I am dealing with my child's disease. In other people's cases, there is a huge spectrum of challenges. On top of that we have to fight the system, the Department of Social Protection, the Revenue Commissioners, the Department of Education, the HSE, the list goes on. We are all exhausted and this empowers us and allows us to live life and hope for the future. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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That is a very encouraging and fair contribution. None of us doubts the Senator's commitment to this and we are anxious to help him. I will allow others to comment briefly on sections 2 and 3. I remind them the debate must adjourn at 5.30 p.m. If they want to get the business done or leave it for another day, it does not matter to me. Senator Carrigy has indicated.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Clonan for his powerful contribution. The Government is fully committed to the delivery of an appropriate and accessible service for children with disabilities and their families and to radical transformation in the disability sector.

The first step in that was taking disability out of the Department of Health and bringing it to the Department of equality. We all have health issues but everybody also has rights issues. It took longer than I ever intended for that extraction to take place. It took the guts of three years. It is only in the past year we have started to work within the Department of equality at getting to the root-and-branch approach required when we look at where we are with assessments of need.

Something that keeps me awake at night is the growing number of assessments of need and the fact we have not built the capacity within our CDNTs because to become an OT, physiotherapist or speech and language therapist takes four years in training. The fact we have not added those to meet the unmet need and that our teams have not full capacity keeps me awake.

Senator Clonan talked about the fight and I see it in the amount of legal challenges being brought at the moment to do with assessments of need. I look at some of the teams and wonder why they are not functioning. It is because some of them spend a lot of their time looking at complaints, as opposed to looking at interventions. The system at the moment is quite broken, to be honest, and most parents know that.My job is to ensure that I have the funding to provide the staff to go on the teams. My job is to ensure that extra higher education places are created. My job is to ensure that work permits can be granted, and that we do not just look internally but externally. My job is to work with the HSE to ensure that we can look at alternative methods of support, which is where the assistant therapist post has come from. That is why Bernard Gloster ensured that 285 were put in place within the current PDS roadmap, and that they would be funded, as we speak. Yes, we will support the Bill. I will not be opposing it, but we will have conversations from here on out.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Before we conclude, this has been an important day and I am going to allow the Minister of State and perhaps Senator Clonan to say some brief words. I sat in a room with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in County Roscommon some time back with the family of a child with severe disability. It was a family suffering trauma and hopelessness. The Minister of State was obviously doing her best to follow up on it. When the family left the room I watched her shed a tear that evening. She turned to me and used a phrase that she used three times today: "The system is broken. How can we help people like this?" I am making that point to show her commitment is 100%, but as has been said here several times, our system is broken. I ask the Minister of State to say a few words in conclusion and Senator Clonan can also do so if he wishes.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yet again, I thank Senator Clonan and all in the House for this Bill this evening. There is no doubt that I cannot do this alone. It has to be a whole-of-government, whole-of-Seanad, and whole-of-Oireachtas approach to address the unmet need within interventions and the assessment of need.

Senator Clonan is correct that there is a cost. There is a cost to the training and ensuring that we have the people to do it. It is a whole-of-government approach. A whole-of-systems change and a whole-of-culture change are required. It is not just one cog that is required at this moment in time, it is a number of cogs. As I said earlier, I am not a clinician or a manager in the HSE. I am a mere politician, one who recognises that it is a system that is flawed but well intended, with really good workers within it who want to do their best. It is our job to ensure that the HSE is supported, and that the Department's officials are supported to ensure that support for disabilities - it must be led from the top with real leadership from the Taoiseach – is provided and that the commitment that the Taoiseach has signalled is actually brought to fruition. It is my job to work with the Taoiseach and all here, with my Dáil colleagues and, most importantly, with the organisations that are tasked to support and deliver assessments and interventions and to drive down our waiting lists.

We do this for the families but, most importantly, we do this for the people who need it - the child or the adult who needs the intervention.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I will allow Senator Clonan to say a few words in conclusion.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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The Minister of State mentioned the cultural change that is required. We are at a moment of cultural change. The narrative and our public discourse around disability is changing. Irish people now see it as a fundamental human rights issue. Everybody here in this Chamber - our guests, the Minister of State and her officials - has played a role in facilitating and accelerating the change. I really believe that.

When I first started lobbying back in 2011 at the start of the crash, I am sorry to say it, but I would characterise my interactions with Ministers – people now make representations to us - as being very hostile and adversarial. That changed in 2016 when Finian McGrath was appointed as Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities. I felt in my interactions with him and then with other Ministers that it was no longer adversarial or hostile, and that we were at least being listened to.

Since 2020, when the present Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, was appointed, I see a continuation of that positive trend. There is absolutely no doubt about her commitment. I do not know her very well, but I do know her to a certain extent. We have had quite a few interactions and I know her to be a person of great integrity. She is in an exquisitely painful position from time to time. I appreciate the work that she does. I hope we can continue this work.

I have other legislation, a much more comprehensive piece of legislation based on the social model of care that provides for independent supports for disabled citizens. When it is fully drafted and it comes back from the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers - I have a 33 page White Paper to accompany it – I will bring that immediately to the Minister of State and to all of my colleagues across the House. I will make sure she has full sight of it and that the details on it are fully circulated to her. I hope we can continue this conversation.

I thank all my guests for being here this evening. Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach Gníomhach. I thank the Minister of State. This is a great moment. I hope we can go to the Dáil bar and celebrate it.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Once again, I sincerely thank Senator Clonan for his contributions today. It is very important to have those people here to see that we do care, that we want to make the changes, and we have to make the changes. I appreciate our audience on both sides. I thank them all again. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit, leis na Seanadóirí agus le hoibrithe an Tí.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Next Tuesday.