Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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We are now dealing with the motion regarding the Independent Review of the Handling of Past Complaints of Abuse in St John Ambulance Service. I inform Members of the House that, as they are aware, under the new procedure approved by the House, the combined speeches of the proposer and seconder of the motion should not exceed 16 minutes and all other Senators have six minutes. I wish to inform and remind all Members before the debate begins, having regard to the sensitivity of the issues involved, of the need to be cautious in referring to persons outside the House who are not in a position to defend themselves.

As Members will be aware, the House has adopted Standing Orders which seek to strike an appropriate balance between the rights of Members to engage freely in debate on matters of public importance and the rights of all persons affected by such debate. Standing Orders 49A, 49B and 49C provide for a mechanism by which a person who is of the opinion that he or she has been adversely affected by an utterance can make a written submission and these Standing Orders set out procedures for dealing with the matter. In light of that, can I ask all of us to exercise due responsibility in any references Members may make to persons outside the House.

I welcome Mick Finnegan to the Public Gallery and I thank him for the work he has been doing on this particular matter. I also welcome the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, to the House.

I now call on Senator Seery Kearney to move the motion. I understand that Senator Dolan will be seconding the motion and will be sharing time with Senator Seery Kearney, and that Senator Seery Kearney will be closing the debate on behalf of the movers of the motion.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I move:

“That Seanad Éireann:

acknowledges that: - the ‘Independent Review of the Handling of Past Complaints of Abuse in St John Ambulance Ireland’ (SJAI) by Dr Geoffrey Shannon SC, disclosed a very serious pattern of abuse of young people in that organisation over a number of decades;

- the report made eight recommendations arising from its findings, including:

- that the culture and ethos of the SJAI needed change, such that the young people at the heart of it, the ‘cadets’, ‘should be considered as members who

have a contribution to make’ and that a ‘culture of safeguarding’ needed to be implemented;

- that they ‘must ensure that all appropriate measures are in place to ensure the safety and wellbeing of cadets in its care at all times, to include ensuring that appropriate rules with regard to supervision and management, in particular when cadets are taking part in any offsite activities or overnight stays’;

- the urging of ‘a culture of openness ... one that does not make excuses or contextualise its failing behind conservative ideas and prejudices. It is not acceptable to defend the failures at a systemic level that allowed children to be vulnerable by reference to culture of the time. Instead, SJAI should be honest about how its structures facilitated grooming and predatory behaviour. Warnings were ignored and not taken sufficiently seriously in the past, nor were reports made to the appropriate authorities.’;

- that ‘the failure to investigate known threats to the safety of children in the past was part of the broader weak accountability mechanisms within SJAI’;

- that the ‘disciplinary structure within SJAI was not used when a threat presented itself. There was a failure to investigate, with excuses made about the degree of information available. This represented an ethical failure, when children’s safety and welfare were

at stake.’;

- that ‘the organisation formed an opinion that it could not act, even to investigate, without the degree of evidence that would secure a criminal conviction’;

- that ‘a culture that did not investigate these suspicions also found it too easy to dismiss the gravity of allegations, and from there to deny or minimise that there was wrongdoing within the organisation’;

- that ‘the culture of deference towards rank and status also led to the reputation of the organisation itself being prioritised over the safety and welfare of young people in the organisation’;

notes that: - the 1916 Proclamation states that ‘The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the

children of the nation equally...’;

- the Thirty-first Amendment to the Constitution provides that ‘the State recognises and affirms the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children and shall, as far as practicable, by its laws protect and vindicate those rights’;

- since 1998, with the coming into law of the Protections for Persons Reporting Child Abuse Act 1998, under Minister Alan Shatter, persons reporting a child welfare or child protection issue were protected from civil liability;

- since 1st January, 2005, the HSE was responsible for child welfare; this function was moved to Tusla from 1st January, 2014;

- in 2006, it became a criminal offence to cause or permit any child to be placed or left in a situation which creates a substantial risk to a child of being a victim of serious harm or sexual abuse or for failing to take reasonable steps to protect a child from such a risk while knowing that child is in such a situation;

- in 2012, with the introduction of the Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012, it has been a criminal offence to withhold information relating to known or believed sexual abuse;

- the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Acts 2012-2016, imposes a statutory obligation on any organisation engaging with children or vulnerable persons to ensure that their staff are vetted;

- the Children First Act 2015 imposed an obligation on organisations to have a child safeguarding statement and introduced a system of mandatory reporting to Tusla under section 14 of that Act;

- the Children First Act was revised in 2017 to include a mandatory reporting obligation where a retrospective allegation is made;

- the SJAI and any organisation in the country that carries on work or activities that consists mainly of having access to or contact with children is a ‘relevant service’ in accordance with the Children First Act 2015. Section 10 of this Act obliges any organisation deemed a ‘relevant service’ to ‘ensure ... that each child availing of that service ... is safe from harm while availing of that service’;

- under the Children First Act 2015, Tusla ‘shall ... regard the best interest of the child as the paramount consideration’. This has been deemed by the Courts as being a proactive obligation. Barr J stated ‘I have no doubt that in the exercise of their statutory function to promote the welfare of children, health boards are not confined to acting in the interest of specific identified or identifiable children who are already at risk of abuse and require immediate care and protection, but that their duty extends also to children not yet identifiable who may be at risk in the future by reason of a specific potential hazard to them which a board reasonably suspects may come about in the future’;

- the SJAI’s files showed that it did not make a referral to Tusla in every case where a child protection issue arose or when such an allegation was made, even in instances where internal investigations were made;

- an allegation was referred to Tusla in 2013, and it would appear from the Report that the assessment of that allegation commenced in 2017;

- the most recent allegation made to SJAI was in 2016 after the coming into law of the Children First Act;

- in correspondence with the SJAI in 2019, Tusla found ‘no issues for improvement’ in the safeguarding policies of the SJAI;

- this finding by Tusla was quoted by the SJAI, including at a meeting attended by the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Roderic O’Gorman;

- in September 2020, Tusla wrote to the SJAI in relation to the report of historical abuse stating ‘from our meeting with you, [we do not] have any concerns regarding the management of the allegation discussed or any concern that child abuse was systemic within your organisation, or that there was any failure to act on the part of SJAI. We don’t plan to meet with you again unless further matters arise.’;

- the SJAI relied on an investigation by An Garda Síochána and Tusla in relation to three reported allegations and their file shows that the case was ‘closed off once An Garda Síochána confirmed that no action had been taken by them or HSE/Tusla’;

- in September 2020, Tusla noted that their child protection policy was outdated and obsolete and stated that ‘it is imperative that all safeguarding documents are in line with Children First guidance and legislation’ and invited SJAI to engage to have its policies reviewed;

- in November 2020, Tusla recommended that SJAI engage an independent review;

- the review was carried out by Dr Geoffrey Shannon SC;

- the review concludes that there is an ongoing threat to the implementation of robust and effective child protection systems and practices; calls for: - an urgent investigation into the child protection oversight within Tusla that within weeks deemed safeguarding policies adequate, child protection policies outdated and then called for a review;

- an urgent statutory review of the powers of Tusla and the adequacy of the Children First Acts 2015-2017, to address the very serious shortcomings demonstrated in Dr Shannon’s report;

- an urgent review of the mandatory reporting obligations, extending them to ensure that criminal sanctions are imposed where there is a failure to act;

- a review of the number of organisations, or individuals within organisations, who have been prosecuted for the withholding of information, and if none have been, then a review of the legislation, its adequacy and application must be undertaken;

- a complete review of the standards and criteria applied by An Garda Síochána/DPP in the investigation of matters of historical sexual abuse that deemed the previous matters not prosecutable;

- an immediate meeting between the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and any survivors of the SJAI who may wish to attend that meeting to hear their concerns at the inadequacy of the State’s response to their experiences; and

- the provision of counselling, medical and legal support to the survivors of sexual abuse within this organisation.”

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I second the motion.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. The Minister is very welcome. I also thank the Cathaoirleach for facilitating this motion at very short notice which we greatly appreciate.

I am very mindful of the obligations of privilege and anything I say today or will say in the context of this matter is already in the public domain and is taken from Dr. Geoffrey Shannon’s report. I begin by giving the apologies of Senator Doherty, for whom another matter has arisen, and who has been an extraordinary supporter and campaigner along with the incredibly courageous Mick Finnegan, to whom I pay particular respect today because, for a very long time he was a very lone voice and quite isolated in this regard. We would not be here today and the progress would not have been made without that one individual having extraordinary courage. Around him are others who have courageously come forward. I also want to pay tribute to Jack Power of The Irish Timeswho was the first to report this issue.

The motion we have put before the House makes particular calls. We call for an urgent investigation into the child protection oversight within Tusla. There seems to be a disparity there between safeguarding policies and saying that these were adequate at one point and then saying, within a matter of weeks, that that organisation required a review. We are looking for a statutory review of the powers of Tusla and the adequacy of the Children First Act because there are very serious shortcomings addressed in Dr. Shannon’s report.

We are looking for an urgent review of the mandatory reporting obligations and how they are dealt with. There are criminal sanctions if one fails to report or leave a child open to neglect, or neglects one’s responsibility in child safeguarding. If one is aware of potential for abuse and fail to act on it, there are criminal sanctions which have been in place since 2006. We are calling for that review.

We are also looking for a review of how the DPP adjudicates cases. We are also looking for an immediate meeting between the Minister and the survivors from the St. John Ambulance, which is the scandal at the heart of this matter. We are looking for the provision of counselling, medical and legal supports outside of those which are allegedly being supplied by the St. John Ambulance.

Why are we doing all of these things? This falls into a couple of categories. First, we are all familiar with St. John Ambulance at sporting and social events in our State. Its source of funding is from charging organisations like the GAA, the FAI, the Irish Rugby Football Union and the St. Patrick’s festival for the presence of its volunteers at those events. That is how the organisation funds itself so it is very familiar to us.

Underneath that and within a particular social demographic, some people were warned that there was a risk of an individual abusing them and some people were left to be preyed upon by an individual again and again, by the same individuals from the same background and area. That is not all right. This organisation which we are all so familiar with allowed that to happen over decades and it then denied and denied.

It is now 2023 and as long ago as 2003, St. John Ambulance was able to airbrush that individual out of a photograph of its leadership. This organisation acknowledged 20 years ago that this was a problem person and yet it trundled along. One of the excuses cited in the report is that the organisation believed that to even investigate a manner, there had to be a criminal standard of proof.

There is then the whole handling of this report, the delay in its publication and how the organisation published it, on the eve of St. Patrick’s Day, hoping that it would be buried in the news.On the day, it issued an apology which I have here. It states that the organisation believes the victims. It states:

Please be assured that you have been listened to and are believed. It is a great source of disappointment that this was not always the case.

The organisation that issued that apology to survivors is the same organisation that is suing them for defamation. The same organisation has issued proceedings against those very survivors. Where is the integrity in this so-called apology? There is none. That is a fact. The organisation cannot stand over its statement that it accepts everything in this damning report and its wholehearted apology while continuing to sue the people who are making the allegations. Those are the people who have suffered and are at the heart of this report. The organisation cannot do that. I want to point out that is what is going on. People are still being accused of lying, being imbalanced and having ulterior motives. We can contrast the public persona presented by the website of St. John Ambulance Ireland, which contains its apology and response to the report, and which gives the impression of transparency, with its activity behind closed doors. No one has resigned in St. John Ambulance Ireland. No one at the helm of that organisation has resigned nor is anyone signalling any intention to do so. Organisations such as the FAI, the GAA and the IRFU are still engaging St. John Ambulance Ireland despite the fact that the report states there are still risks and vetting is still not in place or properly overseen. In every way, those organisations that are engaging the services of that organisation are supporting the idea which is at the heart of the actions of St. John Ambulance Ireland, which is that the reputation of the organisation is more important than justice. Its reputation is more important than children's right to their bodily integrity and safeguarding and cherishing the optimism and idealism of youth and childhood. Shame on any organisation that engages St. John Ambulance Ireland while this situation remains ongoing. Shame on them until every single thing is implemented and the leadership of that organisation has resigned and left. We need to ensure we are doing that.

Publicly available minutes of meetings show that St. John Ambulance Ireland received a letter from Tusla which stated it had no concerns regarding the management of an allegation discussed, nor any concern about child abuses being systemic, nor any concern that there was any failure to act on the part of St. John Ambulance Ireland. Tusla gave the organisation a letter in September 2020 which was cited in meetings with the Minister. The letter was cited to anyone who wanted to hear about it. This report completely contradicts that letter, which raises a question about the criteria that Tusla uses when it issues letters such as this. Letters such as this can be used as fig leaves to cover the shame of an organisation and to prioritise reputational preservation over the rights of children and adults. The public makes assumptions about Tusla and its powers because - God bless us - there are many families who live in fear of letters from Tusla. An assumption is made when a letter is issued about an organisation. A letter was produced by Tusla and signed by its chief executive to the effect that St. John Ambulance Ireland was okay and safe. We have to open up that terrible misunderstanding. Clearly, the organisation is not okay or safe. The criteria used by Tusla may be wrong or it lacks the requisite powers. If it lacks the powers, when was that exposed? The responsibility for child welfare in this State was given to Tusla on 1 January 2014. Since then, has it asked about or noticed this misrepresentation of its power? When it puts out a letter that states an organisation is fine and its statement is in compliance, what does it mean? It is a piece of paper. It does not mean anything else. It means the piece of paper relating to safeguarding is all right but that does not mean the actions behind it are all right. Tusla does not appear to be able to find out about the actions going on behind the piece of paper and yet an organisation will tout the letter as being a mark of quality. It is a disgrace. We need a statutory review to examine the powers of Tusla and what happened here. It is not all right that St. John Ambulance Ireland used that letter from Tusla as a fig leaf. It is not all right that Tusla can make a statement that appears to imply a level of investigation and interrogation of systems that is not happening.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his presence in the Chamber today for this Private Members' motion in the names of Senators Doherty and Seery Kearney and others. We know that the St. John Ambulance is an international humanitarian organisation with over 500,000 volunteers in over 20 countries. This is an extremely difficult situation. In his statement on the report, the Minister welcomed the people who have contributed to it by speaking about the experiences they have gone through. The situation is difficult. Tusla is the Child and Family Agency. It is the dedicated agency for improving well-being and outcomes for children. It represents the most comprehensive reform of child protection, early intervention and family support services. Many families depend on the services of Tusla. The review was independent, undertaken by request of the board of St. John Ambulance Ireland. The outcomes of the report have an impact on us, as a State and a Government, in respect of child protection. There are lessons in this report. We must consider how we can improve the situation in terms of the oversight of child protection. That is crucial.

There are calls for counselling supports in the motion. Tusla has put in place a phone line for anyone who has been affected by issues relating to child protection, in particular in respect of St. John Ambulance Ireland. That dedicated reporting helpline number is 045 839375. As part of this motion, we are calling for a review of the adequacy of the oversight and child protection policies. We are calling for the provision of counselling to survivors. We are also asking the Minister to meet some of the survivors from this group. I appreciate that the Minister's term in office has required an awful lot of engagement on many serious topics and subjects of concern to Irish society. This is another example that we are dealing with as a Government. Together, we are examining how to improve the systems of child protection. Go raibh míle maith agat. I thank all those survivors of child abuse who are with us today and who contributed to the report. I ask them to source and seek support where they need it to allow them to speak about these issues.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. Like others, I welcome the long overdue publication of the report and commend those who participated in the review and detailed their experiences of abuse, particularly childhood sexual abuse. It is a large burden to place on any individual. It is an experience that must have been difficult and retraumatising. People have bravely and selflessly spoken up and they should be thanked for doing so because without their brave and selfless decision to speak up, this report would not have been possible. We owe them a debt for doing so.I also thank Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, who is now a District Court judge, for his work on the report. There is perhaps no greater testament to his work than that from survivors, such as Mick Finnegan, who have said it was thanks to the care and understanding of Dr. Shannon that they felt strong enough to speak up on this to their representatives.

What now with the publication of this report? The documenting of abuse is not the end. Far too often reports are left to gather dust on the shelf. As the old adage goes, justice delayed is justice denied. There have already been far too many delays in reaching this point. The implementation of the recommendations in the report should not present a further delay. The duty falls on St. John Ambulance, Tusla and the Minister with responsibility for children to fully consider and promptly address the issues raised. The report makes clear that the management and board of St. John Ambulance are accountable for the litany of failings in the organisation, including its ethical duty of care to children. I add my voice to calls for the board to step down and step away.

Serious concerns have been raised with my colleague Deputy Funchion that Tusla provided assurances that the State agency had no current concerns about historical child sexual abuse in St. John Ambulance and, more worryingly, that it did not have concerns with the organisation's current child protection procedures. This review seriously calls into question the judgment of the State agency. I support the request of my colleague Deputy Funchion for Tusla to appear before the Oireachtas joint committee to discuss the assurances it previously provided. I am also concerned that despite the fact that St. John Ambulance does not have a finalised child protection policy and its Garda vetting procedures remain incomplete, it continues to provide a service for various sporting and national governing bodies and communities.

The abuses and failures of governance unveiled in the report are immense but not insurmountable. There are very clear steps that St. John Ambulance, Tusla and the Minister with responsibility for children can and must take to promptly address the issues raised. Survivors have shown immense bravery and tenacity in seeking accountability and reform. This bravery must be matched by action on the part of others.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister. I acknowledge Mick Finnegan and others in the Gallery and watching in. I also acknowledge the work and advocacy of Senators Seery Kearney and Doherty in raising in the House the need to publish the report, the delays in this regard and discussion on it. Thankfully, the report has been published.

Sexual abuse was first being reported in this country as far back as the mid-1990s. One would have thought these reports and reviews were long done. To think that in 2023 we are still publishing reports into abuse is startling. I acknowledge the work of Dr. Geoffrey Shannon and his very comprehensive report into St. John Ambulance. We could argue that going back over a long number of years, there has been comprehensive legislation passed by the Oireachtas to protect children and those who report the abuse of children. We can go back to 1998 and then to the Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012, the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Acts 2012 to 2016, the Children First Act 2015, which was revised in 2017, and, of course, the children's referendum, and the establishment of Tusla and the transfer of responsibility for child welfare to that agency in 2014. All of these were positive steps in terms of protecting children and those who report abuse against children. That is to be acknowledged.

Whatever other steps need to be taken by this and future Governments, I am sure they will be done in the context of reports such as this and any other report that may come in the future. I hope there will not be a need for one. The motion calls for an urgent investigation into child protection oversight in Tusla as well as a statutory review of the powers of Tusla and the adequacy of legislation. We have to learn at all stages from reports and investigations carried out into child abuse and reporting. The lessons that are learned have to be put into legislation afterwards to ensure these issues do not arise again.

There is also a need for an urgent review of mandatory reporting obligations in order to extend them to ensure that criminal sanctions are imposed where there is a failure to act. This is important. It goes back to the mid-1990s when these issues were first examined with regard to the Catholic Church, the cover-ups and the failure to report. I thought we had come a long way from that. Of course, we have done so but there is also evidence of failures within St. John Ambulance. There is also a need to carry out a review of the number of individuals in organisations who have been prosecuted for the withholding of information. A review of the legislation's adequacy and application must be undertaken.

The motion also calls for a complete review of the standards and criteria applied by An Garda Síochána and the Director of Public Prosecutions in the investigation of matters of historical sexual abuse that deemed the previous matters non-prosecutable. It also calls for a meeting between the Minister and any survivors from St. John Ambulance who may wish to attend such a meeting to hear their concerns about the inadequacy of the State's response to their experience. I am sure the Minister will comment on this. It also calls for the provision of counselling and medical and legal support for survivors of sexual abuse in the organisation.

We have seen this in other health areas. It goes back to the 1990s. There have been failures by so many people to investigate, report and protect vulnerable children and young adults. It is startling that in 2023 we are seeing new reports published on matters such as this. I am not sure whether there are more reports on other organisations. I certainly hope there is not a need for them. I hope that all organisations, if they have not done so already on foot of the occurrences and happenings in St. John Ambulance Ireland, will look at their procedures and practices and ensure that what needs to be put in place under the law is put in place and what extra can be done in the organisations is also done to ensure that matters such as this are not repeated and people are not left vulnerable. We know the good work that is done by St. John Ambulance throughout the country. It is important this work continues. It is also important that those who volunteer for it get the protection that they deserve and the State has ordained.

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senators who have tabled this important motion. As my colleague mentioned, we are inundated with report after report of current and historical abuse of women, children and men who are vulnerable people. Fianna Fáil believes in the delivery of fundamental public health services to the highest standard through investment, innovation and reform. We will not oppose the motion, which we welcome. We encourage St. John Ambulance to conduct an independent review of the handling of past allegations against the organisation and its current safeguarding practices. We know the Minister wrote to St. John Ambulance to encourage publication of the full report.The Minister's officials met with survivors of abuse who wished to raise serious concerns about safeguarding and historical abuse in the St. John Ambulance service following correspondence. Tusla engaged with St. John Ambulance prior to and during the review. Tusla officials have advocated for a review to take place following the confirmed outcomes of individual assessments of retrospective allegations made.

In 2017, the Children First Act was commenced in full. The Act sets out the obligations on people and organisations to protect children. The Act specifies the categories of mandated persons who must report suspected instances of child abuse to Tusla. The Act sets out the duties of relevant services to have a child safeguarding statement in place. The Tusla safeguarding statement compliance unit maintains a register of non-compliance of relevant services. The register may be viewed by members of the public. To date, no service statements have been deemed non-compliant due to engagement by Tusla officials to assist organisations reach compliance. Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, continues to be available to take referrals from persons seeking to report suspected abuse.

The Charities Regulatory Authority under the aegis of the Department of Rural and Community Development is Ireland's statutory regulator for charitable organisations, including St. John Ambulance.

The board of St. John Ambulance commissioned Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, now a judge of the Circuit Court, to conduct an independent review into historical allegations of child sexual abuse and to assess current safeguarding practices within the organisation. This is the report we are looking to have published.

It is sickening. My colleague touched on it again. We are inundated with reports. Nearly every organisation within the State is coming out with a report of some sort of child or other abuse. We saw the Women of Honour report yesterday. Other organisations have had similar reports. It is hard to stomach. Tusla has in place proper safeguarding mechanisms but we need to ensure they are properly resourced so that when reports of allegations are brought to their attention, they are able to deal with them.

Tusla is seriously under-resourced. Anyone would tell the Minister that. Social workers are under huge strain and they have a massive body of work that they just cannot get to. I do not know if it is down to the training or down to the level of funding but we have to ensure that Tusla has the proper resources in place.

I commend the motion and commend my colleagues on bringing it into the House today.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
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I thank the Fine Gael Group for bringing this motion to the House. It is incredibly important and incredibly timely. As the House will be aware, there had been quite a long delay in the publishing of Dr. Geoffrey Shannon's report into the mishandling. I use the word "mishandling" somewhat lightly. It was an egregious series of deliberate, conscious decisions made to block access to justice and truth coming out within St. John Ambulance but it has finally been published. It highlights the level of historical child sex abuse in St. John Ambulance and how the structure of the place failed to address or prevent further abuse.

I have said and will say again that my heart is so heavy for Mr. Mick Finnegan and all of the brave survivors who never should have been made wait so long for this report or for their truth to be believed. I hope that this report and their rightful vindication goes some way towards their healing but we know that it, of course, will not.

I am horrified, although not in any way surprised, that St. John Ambulance put its reputation ahead of any basic child protection. It must be so awful for the survivors to read - it was a lengthy report but there is a huge amount of media coverage of it - how their truth and experiences were put secondary to the reputation of the organisation. That was horrific.

The report states that the culture in St. John Ambulance poses an ongoing threat to current child protection. That is very worrying. Every Senator in here is talking about that today.

The independent investigation also concludes that St. John Ambulance does not have a finalised child protection policy. There has been further follow-up on that, and the organisation saying otherwise, but that is what the report says. That is what Dr. Shannon has reported. There are still many questions here.

The review also finds that St. John Ambulance's current Garda vetting system remains incomplete, thereby creating the potential for unvetted individuals to gain access to children. Given that there has been such a focus on the organisation, particularly over the past two years, it is inconceivable that this is the current state of play and that, even within the two years this has been rumbling on in the public psyche, they did not get their house in order. That smacks of overconfidence in the internal workings of the organisation.

Even today, there remains a hierarchical and quasi-military-like structure which facilitated and insulated past abusive behaviour. The report correctly indicates that this structure is in no way healthy or appropriate for a decent or functioning child protection safeguarding culture. The report notes:

... [St. John Ambulance Ireland] SJAI should be honest about how its structures facilitated grooming and predatory behaviour. Warnings were ignored and not taken sufficiently seriously in the past, nor were reports made to the appropriate authorities. The failure to investigate known threats to the safety of children in the past was part of the broader weak accountability mechanisms within SJAI. The disciplinary structures within SJAI were not used when a threat presented itself. There was a failure to investigate, with excuses made about the degree of information available. This represented an ethical failure, where children's safety and welfare were at stake. ... A culture that did not investigate these suspicions also found it too easy to dismiss the gravity of allegations, and from there to deny or minimise that there was any wrongdoing within the organisation.

The commissioner said that the culture that allowed such abuse is no longer present within the organisation but the report draws questions around that and whether that culture still remains. In light of the steadfastness of some of the response to this - accepting responsibility and making a full apology but then saying that some of the report is not accurate or these things are not quite right - I suggest that either they accept full responsibility and take the full laying of the report or they do not. If they do not, it demonstrates that the culture is still present. As I said, that hierarchical and quasi-military-like structure seems to remain within the organisation.

The report states that St. John Ambulance:

...must ensure that all appropriate measures are in place to ensure the safety and well-being of cadets in its care at all time. ... [This includes] appropriate rules regarding supervision and management, in particular when cadets are taking part in any offsite ... or overnight stays.

These recommendations from the report are the bare minimum. There has to be complete ownership of all failings and the current resistance to change, as referenced in the report, has to be fully interrogated and eliminated.

This should never have happened. At the first instance, child abuse protection should have kicked in and every support should have been provided. The years of cover-up and willful ignoring of this abuse make me sick to my stomach. The board has offered an unreserved apology to survivors of abuse and has committed to a refreshed board to be constituted later this year but I, like many others, am not entirely sure that the board, even in a reconstituted or refreshed form, is suitable. The findings are so severe and so damning that I reasonably believe the whole board should probably not continue.

I support all the points that are called for in this motion. I support an urgent investigation into child protection oversight within Tusla - I have not even got around to that part - along with an urgent statutory review of the powers of Tusla and the adequacy of the Children First Act to address the very serious shortcomings demonstrated in the report. The review of the mandatory reporting obligations should be extended to ensure that criminal sanctions are imposed where there is a failure to act. There should be a review of the number of organisations and individual organisations which have been prosecuted for the withholding of information, and if none have been, a review of the legislation on the adequacy and application must be taken.

I am running out of time and I have one last point. There should be an immediate meeting between the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and any survivors of St. John Ambulance who may wish to attend to hear their concerns about the inadequacy of the State's response to this experience.

I stand with the survivors, not only of the abuse but also of the gross negligence of St. John Ambulance and the wilful abandonment of any basic decency as regards child protection measures. They deserved more as vulnerable children and as adults when they were simply seeking for their truth to be believed.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for coming in here today. I thank my colleagues in the Seanad for proposing this motion and for the work that they have done, notably Senator Seery Kearney, who has done great work in this area, and Senator Ward.

I have seen Mr. Mick Finnegan. I live not far from where I have often seen him standing on the footpath.I salute him and commend him on his bravery and moral courage. He should not have had to do what he has done. I will expand on that.

When I read the report and look at the recommendations, it is in the context of the report of the independent review group published yesterday on serious sexual harassment and sexual assault within our Defence Forces. The dynamics are exactly the same. Regarding the recommendations around not investigating disclosures of sexual abuse and trying to downplay, push back or cancel people who make such disclosures, we had exactly the same pattern of behaviour within the Defence Forces. In fact, we now know that the military authorities, like the St. John Ambulance of Ireland authorities, knew for 23 years that there was systemic and systematic sexual violence within the Defence Forces. Not only did they not deal with that, but they engaged in a pattern of reprisals and retribution against anybody who raised concerns about inappropriate behaviour, sexual assault and rape. Anybody who spoke up was targeted for immediate retaliation and retribution. You find that pattern of retaliation and retribution in the report on St. John Ambulance. Anybody who spoke was isolated or deemed to be a troublemaker and allegations would be made to undermine their integrity and character. Rather than deal with the substantive issues there is a tendency to focus on the person who is being targeted in this way.

What happened in our armed forces involved the targeting of mostly women but also a lot of men. In fact, 88% of women in the organisation report at least two experiences of serious sexual harassment in the last year, as do 17% of men, up to and including rape. Within the military, the vulnerable cohort are enlisted personnel in the main, including female soldiers and young enlisted men. There is an artificial class divide that was inherited from the British army and incorporated into the culture of the Defence Forces of Óglaigh na hÉireann. That status difference facilitated the power differences that were an accelerator to grooming, predatory behaviour, sexual assault and rape. The report talks about the culture of status and rank where cadets were identified, groomed and targeted. In the case of this report, we are talking about children.

As a society, as human beings, we can make a moral rationale for lying or stealing. We can make a moral rationale even for killing. That is the basis upon which the military or the police work, in defence of your own life or other people's lives. As a species, however, there is one thing for which there can be no moral rationale and that is to sexually abuse another human being. To sexually abuse a child is even worse. I was made aware of one case in the Army where a young male soldier with his whole life in front of him was brutally and repeatedly raped by a non-commissioned officer, NCO. That NCO, a sergeant, took the precaution of filming the rapes and then confronted this young man with the footage and said he would make him a YouTube star if he raised this issue. That young man went on to die by suicide in a most horrific way. His family are absolutely devastated. To take that level of violence and apply it to a child who is a cadet. It is perverse that someone might join St. John Ambulance to help and do their civic duty and then be treated in that way, not only by the perpetrator but by the organisation itself, which subordinated its duty of care to these children to the status and reputation of the organisation in exactly the same way our Defence Forces have done. This is a top-down problem in both institutions. The board has serious questions to answer. This drove that young man, a fully trained soldier, to take his own life. When I see Mick Finnegan standing here, standing tall and standing proud, I commend him on his courage and his bravery. I hope he gets everything he is looking for and his full vindication is carried forward. I commend this motion.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for being in the Chamber. I rise in support of this motion. I thank the Fine Gael Senators, including Senators Seery Kearney and Doherty, for introducing it to the Chamber for debate this afternoon. I will begin by commending Mick Finnegan, Paul Mulholland, Martin Hoey, Mark Pender and the other victims and survivors of the abuse that was perpetrated within St. John Ambulance. It took great courage for victims and survivors to come forward and share their stories. It took real perseverance to arrive at the point where we are in a position to discuss the findings of the report prepared by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon.

When I first began to work on this issue in around 2020, Mick Finnegan had come to speak to me. I was apprehensive at first about bringing it up as a Commencement matter. Sometimes when talking about trauma and abuse you are afraid to get people's hopes up that something is going to be done or can be done. Mick thankfully bore with me for a number of months until we knew what the lay of the land looked like. I had discussions with the Department about what type of report could be done, what that might look like and how we could move this forward. It was only then, knowing we could potentially move and begin to look at this, that we were able to bring that Commencement matter. I had to convince Mick a little at the time about why we needed to wait. When you get going and are constantly telling your story, you have to make sure that when you are driving things forward, you at least know there can be an outcome and it is not going to be blocked again. Two years on - it is hard to say "with great happiness" because it is an awful report we have to look at - I am happy that this is the point we are at in terms of justice and acknowledging what the survivors went through.

I know in my heart that there are many more people involved in this, especially with the one perpetrator this began with. I have said it before. I know the services he had access to. I think of all the people across Dublin 12 and Dublin 8 I have worked with throughout years of addiction and homelessness. I cannot stop thinking about it because I know they were youths in the services that St. John Ambulance and that particular perpetrator had access to. I look at them now as adults and I wonder if he had access to them. In some cases we are never going to know. Even though this report will only name or reference a certain number of people, I think we can be strong in saying that it is for every survivor. Whether they ever speak or do not, they should know they are heard and are believed and that there will be accountability in some shape or form.

We need to look at what can be done with organisations like St. John Ambulance with respect to child protection and safeguarding policies, systems and practices. As noted by Dr. Shannon, significant structural and cultural changes are required within St. John Ambulance, recognising that the organisation and patterns of behaviour that occurred within it "led to systemic failures in child protection and safeguarding". While much of the abuse covered in the report pertains to the 1990s and the decades prior, Dr. Shannon noted that St. John Ambulance "operated an unsafe child safety culture" as recently as 2011. Many current and former volunteers have spoken about a deep resistance to change that still exists within the organisation. The issues this report speaks to remain quite live to this day. It is critical that the recommendations from the Shannon report are acted on immediately, including as they relate to the need for cultural changes within the organisation. The structural corrections, which include improved processes for Garda vetting, must be undertaken without delay.

Dr. Shannon's review found that the differential rank and file structures within St. John Ambulance have assisted in facilitating the abuse and grooming of children. The military-like hierarchy that has existed within the organisation prioritises rank and status, which has created a dysfunction in governance and oversight.The inappropriateness of the chain-of-command system for reporting incidents in these sorts of organisations has also been shown in the disclosure of abuse in our Defence Forces, as highlighted by the Women of Honour. It is simply not an appropriate mechanism for dealing with complaints and disclosures of this nature. This is especially the case regarding complaints and disclosures made by children.

There is another element to the abuse perpetrated at St. John Ambulance, that is, the failure of the State to act when alarm bells were rung by victim survivors about the abuse that took place in the organisation, and the systems that upheld it. For me, this is potentially the more significant issue. Unfortunately, it will likely always be the case that certain organisation do not fulfil their responsibilities in respect of child protection or safeguarding. While we cannot observe what happens in organisations around the clock, it is imperative that we can place our trust in the agency charged with the statutory responsibility for child protection, so that when alarm bells are sounded we know the requisite investigations and actions will be taken. This was not the case with the abuse that took place in St. John Ambulance. We ought to hang our heads in shame.

How can it be that, as recently as 2019, Tusla deemed that there was no evidence of systemic or organisational abuse in St. John Ambulance because it had in place a compliant safeguarding statement for children, when the Shannon review has arrived at a very different conclusion? Tusla has stated it had no information available to suggest there was any child currently at risk in St. John Ambulance. However, even after the St. John Ambulance disclosures were first reported in The Irish Timesin September 2020, Tusla, following a meeting with the organisation, advised it did not have any concerns with its management of past abuse allegations. It was satisfied the organisation had adequate safeguarding measures in place. I know the Minister cannot answer this question today but how did we get it so wrong? That is what we need to answer so we never find ourselves in this situation again. I look forward to hearing from the Minister. I ask him to clarify one matter. Senator Dolan mentioned a support line. I think it is a reporting line that exists. I want to clarify that. It is more of a report line, rather than a support line for people calling for support in relation to sexual abuse. I would like clarification on that to ensure accuracy.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy Leader of the House and Fine Gael leader in the Seanad, Senator Doherty, and my colleague, Senator Seery Kearney, for the work they have both done on this Private Members' motion and on its co-ordination and wording. It has our enthusiastic support. I express my gratitude.

I will make a couple of general points and then focus on the motion. There are a number of reasons this motion is so important. The sexual abuse of any human being, but particularly children, is a horror. I know it to be a horror not only as a human being, but also as a former teacher, as indeed was the Leas-Chathaoirleach. As a former teacher and as a parent, I understand it needs to be weeded out. More particularly in the future, we need very clear regulations, reporting and supervisory structures. There needs to be a reporting officer in every organisation so that it cannot happen again. Every safeguard has to be built in to prevent it. That is the first thing. It is a horror in itself. However, another aspect to this gets understandably forgotten in the debate. There is a wonderful number of excellent voluntary people in organisations like St. John Ambulance, Scouting Ireland and a myriad of other organisations. The scandals about sex abuse are a horror to them and a source of shame. It is a shocking source of depression because they have given their lives to that voluntary work. They feel stigmatised and ashamed. Apart from the horror this abuse represents in itself, those people need to be vindicated. They need and want it to be weeded out. They want it made clear that the majority of them are good and innocent. They are well-intentioned and good people, With a few dreadful exceptions, they were unaware of what was happening around them. It is worth making those general remarks.

This motion is soundly based on a solid report - the Independent Review of the Handling of Past Complaints of Abuse in St. John Ambulance Service by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon. Dr. Shannon disclosed a serious pattern of abuse of young people in that organisation over a number of decades, which is a horror. He made a set of recommendations, which I will only touch on. He refers to a need for a change in culture and ethos to ensure the safety and well-being of cadets in the organisation's care at all times. That is very important for the future. Supervisory and regulatory structures must be in place. Dr. Shannon cites warnings that were ignored and not taken sufficiently seriously in the past. That is a dreadful indictment which must inform the future. He also refers to the failure to investigate and inadequate disciplinary structures. All of that needs to change.

I had a group of 50 children from my neighbouring primary school at home in the House earlier. We gave them copies of the 1916 Proclamation, and the wonderful ushers who guided them around spoke about the terms of the Proclamation and the principle that all children be treated equally. That is a necessary thing and Dr. Shannon cites it in his report.

I will move on to what is called for in the motion, having identified the issues and the recommendations of Dr. Shannon. This is not some whimsical thing we have thought of. This is based sadly and tragically in facts. One important recommendation is that the Minister meet the victims and relevant people afterwards. I appeal to the Minister to indicate in his contribution that he will do so. We call for an urgent investigation into child protective oversight in Tusla, and a review of what structures are there and how child protection is catered for. I have a son who has worked in Tusla. He is qualifying in UCD as a social worker. I spoke to him about these matters and I am very proud of what he is doing. People like him need solid structures and reviews. Those need to be provided. An urgent review of mandatory reporting obligations is needed in every organisation. The main thing is to try not to have this happen ever again, while healing and also having accountability for the past.

There needs to be a review of those who have been prosecuted for withholding information, and a review of the legislation and its adequacy. That is important and stands to reason. We call for a complete review of the standards and criteria applied by the Garda in investigations where they deemed previous matters to be not prosecutable. That also needs review. There must be an immediate meeting between the Minister and any victim survivors to hear their concerns. That is also important and I know the Minister has a particular strength in that area. It is important that such a meeting takes place. Provision must be made for counselling, for medical and legal support for survivors of sexual abuse in the organisation, and for a reporting situation, as Senator Ruane has said. Finally, it is wonderful that we are at least shining a light on these areas, and I am happy we are doing so. We need to shine a light. We cannot live with a tinselled or romantic sense of the past. We have to confront the darkness as well as the light. Unfortunately, both are relevant.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I support the motion and commend the work of the proposers. I also commend the work of Senator Lynn Ruane who has been working on this issue for a long time.I most particularly commend Mr. Mick Finnegan who is present and who I got to know through a mutual friend, Mr. Aubrey McCarthy. Mr. Finnegan's courage in the face of all this for many years has to be commended. To be a survivor of abuse, when in many ways you are drawn to the depths of your soul, and be able to keep fighting, keep challenging the system and keep telling your story has to take a huge toll. I see that with Mr. Finnegan because I read his tweets regularly and can see the toll all this has taken on him. He has done an incredible service to so many who have suffered and been abused. He deserves the gratitude not just of the survivors but all of society for what he has done.

I also know Mr. Mark Pender who lives in Newbridge now and is a friend. When he lived in Tallaght, before he moved to Newbridge, he was also an abuse victim. In an awful way, when his brother James was ten, he was knocked down and suffered a brain-acquired injury. As Mark was so impressed with the care James got, he wanted to be part of a structure that gave that care. That was what brought him to St. John Ambulance. His father had been a volunteer with that organisation previously. Sadly, Mark's father became ill and, again, as Mark was so impressed with the level of care, he was very clear in his conviction of wanting to help and support people. When he initially joined, it gave a great structure to his life. He was thrilled to be involved in every aspect but then, very slowly, he was groomed and abused. He went to three different officers, who listened but did nothing and more or less ignored him. He began to think the type of behaviour he was subjected to was normal and, at the same time, his self-esteem and self-worth were in his boots. He would say that continues to be the case. I understand that and am just using his words on that.

There were obviously many good people in St. John Ambulance. We cannot lose sight of all the excellent people who were volunteers but there was abuse by a few - their names appear to be widely known and I know names that Mark has given to me - and the fact nobody stepped up to support these vulnerable boys is an absolutely shocking indictment of the organisation and society. Year after year, we have to discuss all these situations of horrific child abuse. We see children's futures being taken away from them. I know that Mr. Finnegan would say that. One of his comments is, "They shut you down and shut you up." When you are dealing with that internal conflict, it takes away your future as well as your present. It affects relationships with family and friends as well as personal, intimate relationships. The damage is incredible.

I acknowledge that the Minister put pressure on St. John Ambulance to publish the report. It is a very good thing that it has done so. The work that Dr. Geoffrey Shannon has done is top class. The recommendations he has put in place are key, in some small way, to the healing process that Mr. Finnegan, Mark and others need to have. The review's statement that, in the very first place, St. John Ambulance should offer an apology in comprehensive terms is obviously the very least that can happen. The therapeutic support and counselling services that are recommended have to be provided. The review recommended the creation of robust, internal accountability frameworks that are transparent. If that does not happen, we are doing nothing with our time here. That is something that should be part of every single organisation that works with young people. I work with the Order of Malta and Civil Defence at times, and other organisations in south Kildare, on different events and festivals, etc. To see the enthusiasm all these volunteers bring, I would hate to think they might be subjected to this type of thing. I fully support all the recommendations. We need to see action very soon.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome Mr. Mick Finnegan to the House. I thank him for being here, giving his time and being an advocate and champion. It is not an easy space to fill. He is a brave and courageous man. He is one of many who have taken various journeys of going public about abuse, which comes in many forms. It is physical, emotional, sexual and many things between. It is quite a common occurrence throughout our society. Nothing should come as any great surprise to us now.

I acknowledge the Minister's presence and the time he has given to push for the publication of this report, which was slow in coming. I acknowledge the input he had on that, quietly in the background. We do not always have to roar, shout and be loud to be effective. That is an important point and the Minister brought that to bear. I thank Fine Gael for using its Private Members' time to highlight this very important issue. I particularly acknowledge Senators Doherty and Seery Kearney who have very much been a driving force all along as regards pursuing this issue. Giving it such a priority in the context of the demand for their Private Members' time is something I acknowledge and thank them for. I particularly single out Senator Ruane and others who have worked quietly, beavering away. Senator Ruane talked about considering options. It is about expectation, and managing people's expectations and emotions around issues such as this, when it comes to the delivery of a report and, ultimately, some redress and justice.

I will touch on something that is very important but before I do so, I will say that every one of us has a story. We have many stories in our lives. We do not choose to share them all. We are constrained by many of them for personal reasons, because of our own hang-ups, in some cases, or protecting our own wider family. There is sometimes a reason. It is not always logical to people outside the window but for those inside there are many reasons we do and do not tell or share stories. Perhaps we do not always share them because, in our own heads, we are slightly running ahead of ourselves. That is just life and the psychology of life. Seven proposals are listed in the motion. That is what will be important. That is how we, and the success of this motion, will be judged because we are only one part of the bigger mix. I would like to hear what the Minister plans are regarding these seven specific asks contained in the motion.

I will again say a few thanks. It is important we thank people. I thank the media, especially RTÉ's "Prime Time" and The Irish Times, which have kept the focus on this matter. There is much criticism of the media and journalists but I acknowledge the very significant role that "Prime Time", Katie Hannon and others in print, television and radio media have had in giving voice to the voiceless, to allow people the opportunity to speak of and share their unique experiences of hurt. We have that ambition to cherish the children equally but we have to cherish everyone equally. We have to respect everyone and support one another.

St. John Ambulance is just one of many organisations where there have been issues of abuse. The logic of it is there has to be sanctions. These are crimes against human beings and people but, more importantly, people who are vulnerable - what a thing. Any crime, however, is a crime. I am someone who has lived in care and has travelled somewhat on this journey.It is important to be able to have a catharsis and to be able in some way to move on, because we cannot become enslaved. Our past and our experience cannot alone define us. We are challenged to move beyond that. We owe it to ourselves to break free and embrace the world. I say every day "a new day, a new dawn, a new beginning and new opportunities". I have said before and I say it again, I am not that long here. I am six or seven years in the Seanad, but little did I think in institutional care, in which I spent my entire life, that I would come to the Seanad and be an advocate like Mick Finnegan and many others who gave a voice to the voiceless, who used and seized on opportunities. That is the challenge to us all.

I said earlier that we all have our unique stories to tell, we see the world from where we stand and our experiences within it. I think of Senator Ruane who brings really unique life experiences into this House. That is the richness of this House and this place.

I close by saying it is great that we have the opportunity in Seanad Éireann to shine a light on a particular case and today it is St. John Ambulance Ireland. It could be something else tomorrow. We have the power of voice. Not everyone has that power. It has been taken away from many. I am mindful of that when I thank Mick Finnegan and others for their bravery and courage in sharing their personal stories, their personal lives and experience. Hopefully with that journey and that pain and sharing we will somehow navigate a new road for the protection of vulnerable people in our society. Again I thank the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, and Fine Gael for using its time for this important issue.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I dtús báire, ba mhaith liom a rá cé chomh bródúil agus atá mé as mo chomhghleacaithe Fhine Gael, na Seanadóirí Seery Kearney agus Doherty, a rinne a lán oibre ar an rún seo agus a chuir roimh an Seanad é. Táimid ag labhairt faoi ábhar an-tábhachtach ar fad. Is ábhar deacair é ach is ábhar tábhachtach é chomh maith ar chóir dúinn labhairt agus ceisteanna a chur faoi freisin. I pay tribute to my Fine Gael colleagues, Senators Seery Kearney and Doherty. This is a difficult thing to talk about but it is absolutely right and appropriate that we should. It is right and appropriate that we should be willing as a House to take on the issues that are contained in the report.

I have heard the speeches of other Senators and I was particularly struck by what Senator Clonan said. Obviously he has a different perspective, having done the amount of work he did in regard to sexual abuse and sexual violence within the Defence Forces and there is a report on that as well, which is also deeply disturbing. It makes one wonder what is wrong in our society that these events were allowed to occur. The occurrence of them, in and of themselves, is less shocking than the cover up, the actions that ordinary people appear to take to deem them somehow acceptable or worthy of being swept under the carpet, put to one side, or that somehow an institutional reputation comes ahead of the basic human dignity of the victims of these offences.

I worked for many years as a criminal barrister so I have seen similar offences from both sides of the fence. Senator Clonan said there is never a justification, moral or otherwise, for sexual abuse of a child or of anyone. There is no justification. There is no legal defence to that. It is not something that can ever be explained away. That is why what strikes me most about this report is the fact that an institution, made up of individuals, people who know what they are doing, came together and decided that the right thing to do was to protect the institutional reputation of St. John Ambulance, which we have heard today is now in tatters and lacks any credibility in terms of its moral standing with anyone in Ireland. People who may not have been involved in the actual criminal activity saw fit to protect an institution over the individuals who they knew had been wronged. They knew individuals had been the subject of appalling crimes. I do not seek to prejudice any further criminal proceedings that might come out of this but Senator Boyhan is quite right. This is criminal activity of an extraordinarily serious level. Notwithstanding the fact that I have worked with people in this area, I cannot profess to understand any person who thinks it is acceptable, reasonable or in any way justifiable to take any kind of step to cover these things up or to put the reputational benefit of an institution ahead of victims. St. John Ambulance is an example of that.

Unfortunately, however, in the last generation or two we have seen so many institutions implicated, such as the scouts. I was involved in the scouts. It is a wonderful organisation on one level and yet again there is this cancer within it that has allowed individuals somehow not to be able to see the wood for the trees and think that cover up is the way to go. It was the same in other sporting organisations in Ireland. The Catholic Church is an obvious example as well. These involve ostensibly good people who have made appalling decisions. I cannot understand what motivated them, but people decided that it was somehow better to move a priest out of a particular parish and into another parish where he could do exactly the same damage. That is perhaps the issue that is most difficult to grasp. I say that as somebody who has not experienced this. The issues for those who experienced it are enormous and most of us can never properly understand. As a bystander, a legislator, a public representative and as a lawyer looking at what is in this report, I cannot fathom what they thought they were doing. I cannot fathom how they felt that this was the right course of action, not to intervene and protect, not to put in place measures to stop this from happening, to ensure it would not happen again. They did not do that. They did exactly the opposite. They allowed it to continue.

I feel better that the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, is dealing with it because he is someone who has dealt with difficult issues in his brief as Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. He has seen this and taken concrete steps. I have faith that he will be able to do what needs to be done on this. However, it is not a small job, because of the depth of depravity involved, not in committing the crimes, we can all see that, but in other people who had supervisory and managerial roles to decide to cover it up, to protect the institutional reputation over young people. I cannot understand that.

The job that falls to the Minister and to his Department is enormous because it goes well beyond St. John Ambulance. This is just one report but the contents of it are so shocking, depraved and so difficult for any reasonable person to understand that the job the Minister and his Department have now is enormous. First and foremost they need to root out whether there are other organisations that we have not yet heard of, where other children are in danger that we do not know about. Like Senator Hoey, I have run out of time to talk about the Tusla dimension of this and the chasm there as well. Even in cases we know about, the job that has to be done to deal with the situation, to possibly rectify it which is probably impossible, but more importantly to put in place systems that can reliably work to solve this problem to even a small degree, is an enormous task. I have confidence that the Minister is a well-placed person to do this. I have faith in his commitment to doing it, above everything else, which is half the battle.

I know that I am over time but Senators Seery Kearney and Doherty have been extremely vocal on this issue for many weeks. If Senator Doherty was here she would have a great deal more focused things to say, rather than standing here flapping her thumbs in disbelief which is really what I am doing. It is difficult not to be appalled on any level by what is in this report. It is a stain on the State as well as the organisation. The other thing is that the people who sought to protect the institutional reputation of one body have actually damaged the reputation of a whole country. That is the terrible shame of it that will stick with us for generations.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I acknowledge the central role of the survivors affected by the Shannon report, who advocated for their right to be heard and for the harm that was done to them to be acknowledged. It is through their tireless activism that we have a report that is a testament to the truth as they have told us all along. I have had extensive and valuable engagements with Mick Finnegan since becoming Minister and I remain available to him and any other survivor.

While we have spoken of the bravery of survivors in this case, it should not be their duty to seek organisational reviews. When reports of abuse are made to an organisation, within an organisation, those reports should be promptly referred to Tusla. We must all recognise the further harm that can be done if reports of abuse are not treated with sensitivity and transparency. I urge all those who work with children to take note of the findings of this report and to consider how their services value and respect the rights of children to be safe and protected.

It is clear that St. John Ambulance Ireland fell far short of these obligations when it first learned of the allegations of sexual abuse made against members. The report into the response to the allegations of abuse by Dr. Shannon details how St. John Ambulance did not comply with Children First guidance in place at the time the first allegation was made and how the organisation was paralysed, in the review's own words, by the initial response. The commissioner of St. John Ambulance Ireland has confirmed to me in writing that St. John Ambulance accepts in full the findings and recommendations of the report. St. John Ambulance has also prepared a detailed response document outlining how the organisation will address the findings. In addition, three members of the current board of St. John Ambulance have indicated their intention to resign.

I welcome St. John Ambulance's acceptance of the report's findings and the willingness to make very necessary changes. It is extremely regrettable, however, that it required an independent review process, along with the continued activism of survivors, to bring about an acceptance of the requirement for change within St. John Ambulance. As an independent organisation that does not receive funding from Tusla or the Government, there was no external process by which a review into the organisation could be instigated. Instead, the Shannon review came about as a result of advocacy from survivors, input from my Department and the pressure I was able to exert as Minister.

The Children First Act and guidance are intended to empower service providers, members of the public and all people working with and caring for children to recognise and confront suspected child abuse. These instruments, in particular the Children First national guidance, were available to St. John Ambulance in the period covered by the review. Unlike previous reviews of child abuse within organisations, failure to address the abuse was not a consequence of inadequate legislation or an inadequate policy environment. Tusla has had a statutory duty under the Child Care Act 1991 to promote the welfare of children where not receiving adequate care and protection. In doing so it relies heavily on individuals reporting concerns about children in accordance with Children First: National Guidance for the Protection and Welfare of Children, from 2017, and the Children First Act 2015.

Children First national guidance has been in place since 1999, before the commencement of the Children First Act, and was fully revised in 2017 to include reference to the provisions of the Act. The guidance sets out definitions of abuse and signs for its recognition. It explains how reports about reasonable concerns of child abuse or neglect should be made by the general public and professionals to Tusla. It also sets out safeguarding best practice to assist any organisation providing services to children to create a safe environment.

The Children First Act, which was fully commenced in December 2017, provides for a number of key child protection measures and can be best summarised as having three key elements. The first is that the Act provides for mandatory reporting of child protection concerns by key professionals, including teachers, gardaí and healthcare professionals. Under the Act, mandated persons are required to report child protection concerns at or above a defined threshold to Tusla. Mandated persons are people who have contact with children and families and who, because of their qualification, training or employment role, are in a key position to help protect children from harm. The list of mandated persons is set out in Schedule 2 to the Act.

While the Children First Act does not impose criminal sanctions on mandated persons who fail to make a report to Tusla, there are a number of administrative actions Tusla can take if it emerges that a mandated person did not make a report and a child was subsequently left at risk or harmed. Overall, there is a need for a reasonable and proportionate approach in this area. While it is expected that persons mandated to report will meet their statutory obligations without the necessity to impose criminal sanctions for non-reporting, there are criminal sanctions for withholding information from the Garda.

The second key element is that the Children First Act places specific obligations on particular organisations that provide relevant services to children and young people, including a requirement to keep children safe from harm while they are using the service, to carry out a risk assessment and to develop child safeguarding statements. This is a written statement that sets out the service provided and the principles and procedures in place to ensure as much as possible that a child or young person using the service is safe from harm. Providers of relevant services are obliged to provide a copy of their child safeguarding statement on request to Tusla, to a parent or guardian of a child availing of the service or to requesting members of the public. Tusla has established a child safeguarding compliance unit to support the implementation of this provision. This unit maintains a register of non-compliance for service providers who fail to provide a copy of their child safeguarding statement to Tusla when requested to do so. Members of the public with concerns about child safeguarding statements can bring those concerns to the attention of Tusla. St. John Ambulance Ireland is a relevant service as defined by this Act.

The third key element of the Children First Act was establishing the Children First interdepartmental implementation group, on which each Government Department, Tusla, the HSE and An Garda Síochána is represented. That group has been established on a statutory footing. Overall, the Children First Act represents an important addition to the legal framework for child protection in Ireland and helps to ensure that child protection concerns are brought to the attention of Tusla without delay. Under Irish law, criminal investigations are carried out by An Garda Síochána, which then submits a report to the DPP. The DPP co-operates independently of the Minister for Justice and the Department of Justice, then decides whether or not someone should be prosecuted and, if so, for what crime. I urge both the DPP and the Commissioner to consider in detail the Shannon review with regard to any actions that may now be taken in response to the report's findings. Tusla is available to support anyone - mandated persons, organisations working with children and young people and the general public, including parents - with child protection concerns as to how to deal with those concerns. It is everyone's responsibility to protect children and young people and to do our best to keep them safe.

My officials and I will continue to engage with St. John Ambulance to seek the full implementation of the response document. Officials in my Department have already met with members of the board of St. John Ambulance along with representatives of Tusla to ensure the process to allow the full implementation of these recommendations takes place.

I thank Senators for their attention to this issue over the past three years. I think the very first Commencement matter I took in this Chamber was a response to Senator Ruane on this issue, and Senators' focus on the issue across the Chamber has been hugely impactful.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his response and for how comprehensive it was. I am very grateful for it.

I will make just a quick correction. When I spoke earlier, in my emotion I referred to St. John Ambulance issuing proceedings in defence of proceedings and said it is accusing survivors of being liars and of all sorts of things. The fact that St. John Ambulance is defending what happened despite the findings of Dr. Shannon's report is in itself shameful.

I have empathy for people affected by this from early on in my life because in first year in school we were told that if we were to join the Red Cross, it would get us into nursing and that it was a pathway into nursing.I understand what it is like to be 13 years of age, become a cadet in St. John Ambulance and put oneself into that situation. I have that empathy. I am a major GAA supporter. I come from a Mayo mother and a Dublin father. For many years, I enjoyed the spectacle of the All-Ireland final. The Artane Boys Band coming out and playing and the emotion that went with the whole thing was the highlight of the year. Each year when the band comes out now, however, I think of all I read in the Ryan report and in the sounds of the Artane Band I hear the tears of the boys who were savaged in that institution. I stood beside Martin outside the St. John Ambulance. When reading this report, I think, dear God, these were young people filled with the optimism of youth, going to big events wearing their uniform and proud to play their part as first aiders and responders. For that optimism of life to be plucked away by one savage individual is outrageous. Any organisation that sought to cover that up, warn the few elite and leave that small cohort exposed to predatory sexual behaviour deserves to be pilloried. It is appalling. The organisation's carry-on is appalling. Until such time as the organisation has a clear and clean bill of health, it does not deserve to be at any sporting event. Not only will I hear the tears of the boys in the Artane Band as it plays, I will see the uniforms on the sideline and wonder what they have experienced.

We are discussing this issue in the Chamber but in the Public Gallery is an individual whose life experience this is. He lives this trauma. Anyone who has followed Mick’s tweets knows the trauma he has re-experienced and his fear that the report would not have the integrity he knew in his heart it required and would not vindicate him. Thankfully, the report has that integrity and it has vindicated him in a way that only Dr. Shannon, who is an extraordinary man, could.

The State has two defences to protect children from child sexual abuse. It has Tusla and the Children First Act and it has the Garda Síochána. I accept that Tusla's power is limited in respect of independent organisations that were not State funded but that limitation needs to be examined in the context of this report. Does Tusla have enough powers? It knows what it means when it writes a letter stating that it finds no problem or issue. Organisations, however, use their logo to cover up and to assist them. That is what happened with St. John Ambulance and it is not okay. On the day the report came out, I wrote to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, stating that it needed to hold a meeting on this issue, talk it out and explore it, not to criticise Tusla but to ensure it knows whether there are gaps and, if so, to deal with them.

How many prosecutions have there been for withholding information? Prosecution for a failure of mandatory reporting is not possible but it is for withholding information. How many people have been prosecuted for that? I guarantee it is very few. I devilled and worked in the criminal courts on sexual abuse cases. We cannot have a situation where the reputation of an organisation and its elite leaders comes ahead of anything else. Since the 1990s at least, there is no excuse for any organisation not to look at itself and ask whether an allegation is possible and to root out sexual abuse. There is no excuse for it.

I will give my final words to Mick Finnegan, who is an extraordinary individual of extraordinary courage. The State owes him a debt of gratitude, but it also owes him a debt of action now.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I thank Members for their participation in this very important and sensitive debate. The Members and the Minister have done the House a service through their sensitive handling of this very important topic and report. As the Cathaoirleach, independent and impartial, I, like other Members, pay tribute to the survivors who pursued their right to be heard and to have their rights redressed. I thank them for their courageous action and behaviour. I thank Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, with whom I worked when I was Chair of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children. I thank all those who participated today. I commend the Members on the way in which they have represented the House on this important issue. I thank Mick Finnegan for being here, but also for his tireless campaigning. I hope the report gives him a sense of a new beginning and a new chapter. Like Senator Seery Kearney, I grew up immersed in GAA and I very much hear what she said about St. John Ambulance and seeing it now in a different context.