Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, to the House.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Senator Bacik raised precisely the point I wish to raise. I find it astonishing there is no definition of homelessness in this section. We are relying on previous and clearly inadequate definitions. I am glad this matter has been raised and I strongly support what Senator Bacik stated. I will table amendments and I will be happy to support amendments tabled by Senator Bacik. It is important that this matter is cleared up and that the matter of homelessness is made central in the Bill. Homeless action plans are inadequately dealt with in the legislation as framed.

The Minister of State, as a former colleague in this House and as a good Minister of State, will be receptive to these matters and I am sure he will take on board that the principle function of Seanad Éireann is to amend legislation. If he is agreeable to amendments, it is in this House they should be taken.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I support my colleagues in their call for a definition of homelessness to be inserted in the Bill. I also wish to give notice that I intend to table amendments on Report Stage on obliging housing authorities to prepare housing action plans.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Fine Gael also would like to see included a definition of homelessness. A housing Bill is passing through the Oireachtas without a clear definition of homelessness which is one of the most significant challenges facing us with regard to housing. Will the Minister of State take on board the views of the House? It is clear that strong views are held on a clear definition of homelessness. Unless we know what we are talking about we cannot put in place the measures to address this challenge.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The House will have an opportunity to debate this matter when we discuss section 10. I commented on this matter on Second Stage and I stated that I am satisfied that the current statutory definition of homelessness which is contained in the 1988 Act is sufficient. We will carry out a review of the definition for operational purposes. Furthermore in the context of developing a new assessment for the need for social housing support we will provide for a nationwide consistent standard and an objective suite of criteria. The details of such criteria are best suited to secondary legislation and this is what the Bill proposes. We will have further opportunity to deal with this matter as we progress through the Bill today.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

My friend and colleague, Senator Bacik, has pointed out to me that a definition is proposed by Senator Doherty in amendment No. 30 to section 20. The Minister of State will have a few minutes grace to review the situation this morning.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I made my comment on this and we will have further opportunity to discuss this matter as we progress through the Bill. This is the best way forward.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This amendment is required to provide explicitly that a Minister has the power to revoke or amend a general policy direction issued under this section. This provision would be particularly important where policy is changed after the appointment of a new Minister. A similar provision exists in planning legislation, in section 29(3) of the Planning and Development Act 2000.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The acceptance of this amendment involves the deletion of section 7 of the Bill.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This amendment is required to correct references in section 7 to columns in Schedule 1 which specify that the short title of a Bill is to be replaced and the extent of the repeal. Section 7 as it stands refers to columns 2 and 3 of Schedule 1 where it should refer to columns 3 and 4.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The purpose of section 10 is to provide a summary of the main functions of the housing authorities and to act as a lead-in provision to the requirement to make housing service plans as provided for in sections 14 to 18. While I appreciate the objective of the proposed amendment, it would not have the impact envisaged by the Senator. It could oblige an authority to put in train arrangements to deliver support which is not required. I consider the most appropriate way to proceed in this area is to develop procedures whereby an individual or household can apply for social housing support, have their eligibility and need for support assessed and determined in a consistent and fair manner and be allocated to dwellings appropriate to their needs in good time. The provisions of the Bill, including section 10, provide for a coherent set of arrangements for achieving this and I cannot accept the proposed amendment which, if made, would not add to this process. I call on the Senator to withdraw the amendment.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Section 10(a)(iv) lists sales or consents to sales under Part 3 of the Bill, that is, the incremental purchase scheme as a housing support forming one of three specific elements of the housing services provided by the housing authority under the housing Acts. However, the social housing support is also listed in section 10(a)(i) as a form of housing support and elements of the social housing support are listed separately in section 19(2). As sales or consents to sales under an incremental purchase are listed as social housing support in section 19(2)(c), they should not be listed as a stand alone housing support in section 10(a). Hence the proposed deletion of section 10(a)(iv).

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Amendments Nos. 5 and 30 are related and amendment No. 52 is consequential on amendment No. 30. Is it agreed that amendments Nos. 5, 30 and 52 be discussed together? Agreed.

Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 9, paragraph (a)(x), line 35, to delete "10 of the Act of 1988" and substitute "20, as amended under this section of this bill".

Ar dtús báire, ba mhaith liom a léiriú nach bhfuil mé sásta nár ghlac an tAire Stáit agus na Seanadóirí ar thaobh an Rialtais le leasú Uimh. 3, a chuir mé siós chun brú a chur ar na seirbhísí déanamh cinnte de go gcuirfidh siad seirbhísí ar fáil ó thaobh tithíocht sa Stáit seo.

I wish to register my disappointment that amendment No. 3 was not accepted by the Minister and his Government colleagues. It was an important amendment that would provide for a rights-based approach in accessing housing services. It is clear from international best practice that where a rights-based approach is taken to public service provision, including housing, the service provision is more effective and unequal access to services is greatly reduced, resulting in a fairer and more equitable society.

Amendment No. 5 is a technical amendment which replaces a section of the Bill with a different section on the basis that amendment No. 30 would be accepted. Amendment No. 30 is the substantive amendment and applies to section 20, page 16, lines 42 and 43. It seeks to provide a new definition of homelessness. At present, homelessness is defined under section 10 of the Housing Act 1988. The definition has merit but it is far too restrictive and fails to capture the reality of homelessness.

The premise of the amendment is very simple. The first step in solving a problem lies in its definition. This applies to social policy and legislation as much as anything else in life. If we are serious about reducing and eventually ending homelessness, we must work from an agreed and comprehensive legal definition. Across the European Union, NGOs and academics use what is known as the European typology on homelessness and housing exclusion or ETHOS definition of homelessness. This includes people defined as "roofless", such as rough sleepers, people who are homeless, such as those living in emergency accommodation, and those living at risk of homelessness, whether in unsuitable or overcrowded accommodation or experiencing domestic violence.

The amendment seeks to incorporate the ETHOS definition of homelessness into law by retaining the valuable language in the existing definition while adding the broader ETHOS typology. This is the definition used by voluntary service providers across the country and by the Homeless Agency in Dublin. Interestingly, even the Government's new homelessness strategy includes a commitment to review the operational application of the existing definition in line with ETHOS, and includes a detailed explanation of the typology in the appendices of the strategy. Unfortunately, the Government has decided against the new legal definition. That makes no sense. I urge the Minister and the Members of the House to support the amendment.

Finally, with regard to the new homelessness strategy, The Way Home: A Strategy to Address Adult Homelessness in Ireland 2008 — 2013, I am deeply disappointed that the Government has not brought forward any amendments to incorporate the legislative commitments in that strategy into this Bill. In particular, I wish to highlight the need to place both the homeless fora and homeless action plans on a statutory footing as a matter of urgency. The homelessness strategy seeks to end long-term homelessness by 2010. However, time is passing quickly and if it is to be successful, it must be based on a firm and clear legal footing. I intend to bring forward an amendment on this issue on Report Stage.

I wish to stress Sinn Féin's support for this Bill. My amendments are proposed in a positive and constructive manner. My intention is to strengthen this Bill and its intent, which is to ensure better provision of housing services to those in need in order to build safe and sustainable homes and communities. The problems of homelessness can be turned around. Fianna Fáil's partner in Government, the Green Party, has been shamefully quiet on this issue and has a heavy responsibility to end the wrong of homelessness. Every night that one of our people must sleep rough is the fault of every Government Minister and backbencher. They have the power to end homelessness but they choose not to. There is no excuse.

Fianna Fáil and the Green Party must remember their political mandates and who gave them that mandate. A substantial, prosperous economy can be built only on foundations that are just and equal. The Government parties might not recognise this, but the people do. It is time the Government listened to the people. I urge the Minister to listen to my contribution and support amendments Nos. 5 and 30, which would provide for a new definition of homelessness in the Bill.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I strongly support Senator Doherty. He has done us a service by providing a definition of homelessness for the Bill. I am sure Members on this side of the House will put forward amendments and if I do not put them forward, I will certainly support those who do.

It is essential to have this definition of homelessness. I wish to comment on the wording of the amendment. The first thing one notices is that there is a sliding scale; it is gradated. Subsection (a) states, "(a) a person who has no accommodation available to them other than a night shelter, a public place or external space". That is the extreme, but regrettably we know these people exist. There are people within 100 yards of this building who are homeless and who have no place to go. One such person is known to me and he has chosen to remain homeless. It is very difficult to know what to do in those circumstances. There are others, and with the increasingly hostile economic climate there will be many more. For this reason it is very important we address the situation of homelessness very clearly, directly and specifically.

I agree with the definition of homelessness provided by Senator Doherty with one reservation. I suggest when he tables the amendment on Report Stage, as I imagine he will if the Minister does not accept it, Senator Doherty might reconsider the question of people residing in mobile homes because there are people who live in perfectly good, adequate and decent mobile homes. There is something unexpectedly snobbish about this coming from Sinn Féin. It is almost as if we were dealing with trailer trash. Such people are not all Sarah Palins; there are some very decent people. I suggest Senator Doherty might re-examine the business of mobile homes. There are very good quality, well-maintained and comfortable mobile homes in which people live a quite adequate life. I do not believe they would be flattered by being described as homeless. With that reservation I support the amendment.

I urge the Minister of State to consider a definition of homelessness. I believe we are only taking Committee Stage of the Bill today and that we will not consider Report Stage. Is that correct?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I believe that is correct.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State will have time to consider the question of a definition of homelessness. He would do us a service if he provided a definition and he should not allow it to go to the Lower House. The Minister of State was a Member of this House and we have been treated with scant respect by it in recent days. I believe he would be doing the political system a favour if he either provided a definition of homelessness himself or accepted the one proposed by Senator Doherty, by Senator Bacik, who has indicated she will provide one, by me or a combination of all three with, I am sure, the support of Labour and Fine Gael and the moral support of the soldiers of destiny.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Hear, hear.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Labour Party supports this Bill. Our amendments are tabled with the intention of improving the thrust of the legislation. I compliment Senator Doherty on providing a definition of homelessness and the Labour Party will support its inclusion. Clarity is required and we have seen from the exchange between Senators Doherty and Norris that there are issues relating to mobile homes and overcrowded dwellings. Regarding mobile homes, I understand Senator Doherty refers to the type of mobile homes found in people's back gardens which are without access to sanitation or water supplies. These are in place because the eldest son or daughter of the family cannot avail of housing elsewhere. As Senator Norris noted, there are examples of very good mobile homes, linked to sanitation supply, near shops and which are in effect reasonable dwellings. However, the definition should have greater clarity. The mobile homes referred to in the amendment are more likely to be unserviced and in place because of a real need on the part of the occupants.

Regarding the definition of overcrowding, there are many cases of which Senators are aware whereby young families must share rooms in their parents' houses. In such cases the young people concerned may start a family and may be unable to find accommodation. In some cases they end up sharing a bed with their young children because of the lack of social and affordable houses in certain areas. This issue must be addressed. At present overcrowding is usually just taken as one criterion in the assessment for whether a person should be housed from the social housing list. We need to strengthen the definition and I welcome the inclusion of this amendment, which I support.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is generally agreed that this is a positive and progressive Bill dealing with housing. It would be a shame for it to progress beyond the House without a clear definition of homelessness. It is a significant challenge which we face and this is an ideal opportunity to address that challenge. This amendment serves to define and clearly enshrine or acknowledge in legislation what it means to be homeless. If we are to seek resources for housing plans or local authorities, we must acknowledge in legislation at the outset that homelessness is a problem and it must be clearly defined and understood. We also support this amendment.

Many Senators outlined their concerns on homelessness on Second Stage. One need only look around the streets near Leinster House at night to find clear evidence of what some people live through in this day and age, which is a very sad indictment of the system.

I refer to the voluntary and community agencies working at the coalface to deal with homelessness. Senator Bacik already mentioned Focus Ireland, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Simon Community and Threshold. These organisations work daily with various housing authorities and agencies and they see at first hand the shortfalls in the system. These organisations make recommendations for the good of those who are homeless and they are the voice of such people. I compliment the manner in which they have engaged with the parliamentary system and the Oireachtas on this Bill, as they speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. They raise the awareness among Senators, Deputies, civil servants and the Department of those in need and they do a very good job.

We support the amendment for this very reason. It clearly defines homelessness and I urge the Minister of State to consider the amendment as it can only strengthen what is already a very positive Bill. It is possible to build a consensus in the House and in the Dáil when the Bill goes there. This amendment can only strengthen the legislation and provide a stronger document.

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I acknowledge the comments of my colleagues. This is a very good Bill, but there should be a statutory definition of homelessness and it is a pity there is no mention of homelessness in it, given there are so many homeless people. I understand more than 5,000 people are in this position. People are moving from the house of one relative to another, carrying their belongings in a refuse bag and sleeping on couches. The Minister of State opened a very good refuge in Mullingar last week. The people in that refuge are homeless and they have nowhere to go. These people need to have their rights defined clearly by this Bill so I ask the Minister of State to accept this amendment.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is extraordinary that a Bill on housing does not contain a definition of homelessness and has little or no mention of homelessness. The Minister of State should take on board the amendments that we have put forward. People are putting forward amendments to improve the Bill. We would welcome the acceptance of such amendments or an assurance from the Minister of State that he will put down an amendment on Report Stage to deal with homelessness. We certainly cannot let the Bill go through the House without a proper definition of homelessness.

It has been mentioned that 3,000 people are on the streets, but the agencies claim the figure is much higher than that. I would be inclined to believe the agencies that are working with homeless people across the country.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Ba mhaith liom a rá leis an Seanadóir Doherty go bhfuil an leasú i mBéarla agus mar sin beidh an freagra i mBéarla.

In its new homeless strategy, the Government has decided that the statutory definition of homelessness will not be changed. However, we will review how the definition is applied operationally, for example, to ensure consistency in its application across local authorities. This has been made clear in the homeless strategy and in the course of engagement with representatives of service providers in the make room alliance.

Work is being undertaken by the Homeless Agency, in partnership with the Centre for Housing Research, to develop a position paper on a common operational definition for the Dublin area. This paper will form part of a review to be undertaken through the cross-departmental team on homelessness, in consultation with the national housing consultative committee. FEANTSA has devised a typology, entitled ETHOS, to assist in the understanding of housing exclusion and the risk of homelessness. To ensure awareness of groups that may be at serious risk of homelessness, reference is made to the wider ETHOS typology by the Homeless Agency and by non-governmental bodies. This is relevant to the planning and implementation of effective responses to homelessness, particularly in the context of prevention.

I do not propose to amend the definition of homelessness and I ask the Senator to withdraw amendment No. 30 and the consequential amendments Nos. 5 and 52. There are other elements of amendment No. 52 which are the same as amendment No. 53 and these can be dealt with later.

The statutory definition of homelessness is set out in the Housing Act 1988. It defines a person as homeless if:

(a) there is no accommodation available which, in the opinion of the authority, he, together with any other person who resides normally with him or who might reasonably be expected to reside with him, can reasonably occupy or remain in occupation of;

or

(b) he is living in a hospital, county home, night shelter or other such institution, and is so living because he has no accommodation of the kind referred to in paragraph (a), and he is, in the opinion of the authority, unable to provide accommodation from his own resources.

This definition is generally interpreted as including people living in temporary or insecure accommodation, people living in emergency bed and breakfast accommodation and hostels, people in HSE accommodation because there is no other accommodation available, rough sleepers and victims of domestic violence.

The suggested definition by the Senator in certain cases seems to deal with categories of persons who are possibly at risk of homelessness, but who are not actually homeless. For instance, a person whose house is repossessed might be able to source private rented accommodation with the assistance of rent supplement in certain cases. This may also be true for some of the other categories mentioned. Some of the other categories in paragraph (c) would be included anyway in a general assessment of housing need, such as for persons in unfit housing. There could also be difficulties with statutorily categorising all persons in mobile homes as homeless as this would not be acceptable to Traveller groups.

I launched the homeless strategy in August and this is the first serious attempt by the Government to address the issue of homelessness. The strategy has very clear aims, but it will not be implemented unless we have an implementation plan. That plan will be made available before the end of the year. It is very important that we have the implementation plan and the consultation process is ongoing.

I indicated that I hope to bring forward amendments on the homeless action plan during the Bill's passage through the House. I will deal with that on a statutory basis. I ask people to see things from my position. People are often in emergency accommodation for up to eight years so I have brought forward the homeless strategy with that in mind. One of the main aims of the strategy is that nobody will remain in emergency accommodation for more than six months and that we will deal with homelessness and sleeping rough by the end of 2010. That involves many stakeholders and I am involved in a series of meetings with them all. I have met some of them many times. We have a half-day meeting coming up soon with many of the stakeholders, where we hope to finalise our discussions.

I am very committed to this. In those Estimates for which I have responsibility, it is one of the areas where I have increased the allocation, by 5%, for next year. Almost €100 million will be available to deal with homelessness in 2009, made up of €62 million from my Department, over €30 million from the HSE and the remainder from local authorities. I am very committed to the issue of homelessness. The organisations involved have given public recognition of that. The homelessness issue will be dealt with in the implementation plan, which will be put on a statutory footing. I await our final discussions on that plan.

Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Go raibh maith agat, a Aire Stáit, as ucht do fhreagra. Caithfidh mé a rá nach bhfuil mé sásta. Sílim go bhfuil deis againn anois, sa reachtaíocht seo atá ag dul tríd an tSeanaid inniu, sár-mhíniú a thabhairt ar an t-ábhar atá á phlé againn. While I welcome the Minister of State's comments, I do not agree that a definition of homelessness as outlined in amendment No. 30 should not be included in the Bill. The original definition of homelessness is too narrow. It does not address the reality on the ground. Given that the Minister of State has clearly said that the Government has no intention of altering the statutory definition of homelessness, I have no option but to press the amendment.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am heartened by some of what the Minister of State says, but I am disappointed with his response to the definition. I would like some information on that. I know there is a definition in the 1998 Act, but that dates from 20 years ago. We now have a more sophisticated and targeted approach in these matters. I would not like to think that we have not learned anything over the past 20 years that would be helpful in providing a definition of homelessness. I assume it is automatically carried over from that Bill. Perhaps the Minister of State will advise me how that is done technically because I do not see any definition here. It may be that it is included technically, but I would like to know how and where that definition is carried over from the 1998 Act. I am sure the Minister of State is correct in saying that it is, but I am not sure how. It would be helpful therefore if he would explain that. We will continue with this because we are disappointed.

I completely concur with my colleagues who have referred to the work of the make room group, as well as the four principal organisations: Focus Ireland, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Simon Community and Threshold. The Minister of State said he has been in discussions with what he calls stakeholders, but that word can mean various things. I assume that among the stakeholders would be this coalition of particular people who do remarkable work on our behalf, including the menial but essential job of providing soup and blankets. Is the Minister of State saying that the principal groups delivering services to the homeless are satisfied with the definition? I would be very interested to know that. It will weaken our case if he tells me that these people are satisfied because they are the stakeholders, apart from homeless people themselves. If the Minister of State tells me that they are happy with the absence of an updated definition of homelessness, I will take the opportunity to consult them this evening. If the Minister of State is correct and they say "Fine", so be it. I will have to withdraw my point.

I was pleased that the Minister of State spotted the argument about mobile homes. There are people who are happy enough in mobile homes and that issue can be met. I am sure the combined intelligence of my friends, Senators Doherty and Bacik, and even my own wit, might come up with something to cope with that while still covering vulnerable people.

I was impressed by the clear way in which the Minister of State dealt with the situation. It is obvious that he is on top of the job regarding his portfolio. I am 64 years old, however, and have difficulty in hearing. Therefore when he is making an important point, will he emphasise it a bit more for the elderly among us who may be hard of hearing, although not homeless or inadequate in other ways?

I will end on a positive note. I was pleased to hear the Minister of State's comments on emergency accommodation. Although some people have been in such accommodation for years, he has given the House a commitment that no Irish citizen shall be in emergency accommodation for more than six months. That is the ambition the Minister of State proposes to realise and I welcome it. I will be most interested to hear if his discussions with the people who deliver these services have entitled him to say that they are happy with this definition of homelessness.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I was slightly disappointed with the Minister of State's response. I heard what he said about mobile homes and it was something I intended to discuss. I know Senator Norris was hoping for some intellectual contribution from one of his Trinity colleagues, but I do not have their grey matter.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Senator underestimates himself.

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes, he does.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As regards mobile homes, I suggest that it is an opt-in. It is not a compulsory definition, which may annoy or upset people if they take it as a slur. If an individual or group thinks that because they are living in a mobile home they are homeless, let them opt in to the clause. It is not beyond the wit of the Minister of State's advisers to come up with a wording that would achieve the obvious aims of what we are trying to do.

I am disappointed with the Minister of State's response and I serve notice that we will be tabling amendments on Report Stage specifically on the obligations of local authorities to produce service plans for the homeless. If Senator Doherty wishes to push this amendment, he will have our support.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would never be so bold as to describe Senator Norris as elderly.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will get my pension next year.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will address the last question first. Senators are aware of the strategy on homelessness, but it is not worth the paper it is written on unless there is an implementation plan with a statutory back-up. That is the process I am involved in at the moment with all the stakeholders and it is our definite intention to publish the plan before the end of the year. We want to implement it, which means working to get people out of emergency accommodation and into either independent or assisted living under the rental accommodation scheme or other schemes. It is important to work on a co-operative basis, which is why I mentioned the stakeholders who have dealt with homelessness over the years on a voluntary basis. I am now attempting to assist them not alone with a strategy but also with a planned legislative framework so that people will not be in emergency accommodation for more than six months. I have good reason for saying that because I worked in the health services and the local authority system and it is not good for anyone's self-esteem to remain in emergency accommodation for a long period. It gives them no opportunity to re-establish their independent identities, which many of them have lost, nor to enter relationships. I am keen therefore that emergency accommodation should be just that, for emergencies only, and that we will move on from there.

Stakeholders have been informed of the Government's decision regarding the 1998 Act, which is mentioned in section 10 of this Bill. However, the 1998 Act and all other housing legislation work in conjunction with one another. That definition of homelessness therefore forms part of the law of the land. All the Acts from 1996 to 2008 will remain in force. The statutory definition of homelessness is a very good one that has withstood the test of time. The difficulty is not about the definition, but that we have not dealt with homelessness in a broad way. We have allowed that situation to develop over a long number of years, although I am not blaming anybody. I thank the voluntary organisations that have held the line in providing such services. We have not done it in a way that has allowed people to get into independent living or assisted living.

According to the April night count, 104 people were living rough in this city. While I do not want anybody living rough, we will have a small cohort of people who will not take a bed — we know this from the organisations on the ground. That said, we want to make sure they are offered a bed and that they are looked after if they do not want to take it. When we remove people from emergency accommodation, this frees up such accommodation. This will give us an opportunity to have a better range and suite of emergency accommodations than is perhaps available at this time.

As I said, we informed the organisations. I do not want to speak for them as they can speak for themselves and I will not talk on anyone else's behalf. They are aware of my position and they continue to work with me. If I were to interpret it, I believe the implementation plan is the important part for them. We have arranged for a half-day meeting with all the stakeholders in the Custom House some time in the coming weeks, and they have agreed to that.

In conclusion, having considered this in its entirety, I am happy the existing suite of housing legislation puts us on a new path. There is much in this Bill, for example, with regard to the incremental loans scheme. There is a broad range, although we are focusing on homes. The suite of supports available will be adequate and it provides the framework for assessing housing needs, which includes homelessness, as far as I am concerned. The final response before its implementation will be the plan, which I am sure will be debated in this House when it is available. As I said, I hope to have it before the end of the year.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In my discussions with the four principal elements of the Make Room grouping, they were extremely positive about the Bill and about the Minister of State's attitude. There is no question of a dispute or anything like that. However, I could not help noticing that the Minister did not actually say they are happy with the definition of homelessness. In fact, he scrupulously avoided it. Perhaps he is correct — he has just said he cannot speak for them — but the rest of his language is also instructive. He said they have been informed of the decision of the Government and that they continue to work with us. That does not reassure me 100%.

I am not suggesting there is any tension between the Minister of State and these groups because they are all moving very much in the same direction. One of the most heartening things is the Minister of State's very clear commitment to an implementation plan. I would support him in what I understand him to say, namely, that any amount of definitions are no use unless one has an implementation plan. This House on all sides will support the Minister of State in the most rapid development and action on the implementation plan.

If I might presume to one slight correction, when the Minister of State directed my attention to section 10 he referred to 1998. The Act in which I am most interested is that of 1988, not 1998. It is an understandable confusion as there are so many. However, it is reasonable to let the record show it is the definition contained in the Act of 1988.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is 1988. I accept that.

Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have listened to the Minister of State. I want to reiterate this is a serious missed opportunity——

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Excuse me, Senator. I asked Members coming to the Chamber not to have phones with them. A phone is switched on and it is not fair to those trying to record the proceedings. Senator Doherty should proceed.

Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is a missed opportunity. The existing definition of homelessness in the 1988 Act is too narrow. The Minister of State talked about the ETHOS definition but this does not incorporate that broader definition. He used phrases regarding the definition such as "can be interpreted to mean" and "in my view". This amendment seeks to make clear it is no longer a matter of the Minister's view or interpretation but that the definition of homelessness would be clear.

With regard to the mobile home issue, a suitable formula of words can be found to deal with any concerns Members have. I want to state clearly that it is nothing to do with Sinn Féin snobbery or thinking that people who are at risk of homelessness or who are homeless are trailer trash or anything like that. I bring these amendments in a constructive manner and with a clear agenda, namely, to strengthen the Bill and to deal with the issue of homelessness.

The Minister of State talked of "The Way Home" strategy and the ending of homelessness by 2010, which is just 13 months away. There is a need for legislation to be brought forward. He referred to the implementation plan. Of course, everybody is concerned about the implementation plan because they want to see action but they want to see action on some basis or according to some definition. Will it be the narrow definition of homelessness or the broader one that has been accepted and implemented by agencies working in this city and other areas? I have no doubt the groups at the coalface would like to have the broader definition of homelessness.

I urge the Minister of State to reconsider this matter and to accept the amendment or indicate he will come back with his own amendment that would be in keeping with the spirt of my amendment. If not, I will press the amendment. I am glad of the support indicated from other Senators.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not accept that the definition of homelessness in the 1988 Act is inadequate. It is very clear and deals with people who live in temporary or insecure accommodation. Much is covered. There is always a danger in tying down definitions that it may not work the way one wants it to. The implementation of the homeless strategy is what is important. We have a statutory framework in the 1998 Act, it is mentioned again in this Bill and we will have the implementation plan for that strategy by the end of the year.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. This will not be done alone by the Department responsible for housing or by local authorities, or even by the organisations. It must be a co-operative approach. While in many cases my Department and the local authorities may provide the funds, we are not in a position to provide the care. Many of these people have social and addiction problems and need the provision of care. This must involve the Departments, the local authorities, the voluntary organisations and the HSE and the health side. This homelessness strategy will be successful if there is a co-operative approach.

I intend to drive the strategy and the implementation plan when it is available. The implementation plan will get legislative back-up when it is agreed. I do not want to pre-empt the final terms of the implementation plan. I have my own ideas, as has the Department, but it is a co-operative approach and that is the reason the consultation process has been ongoing for some time. While other people were on their summer holidays I was working on the homelessness strategy, and many other people on the voluntary side were available also. We have a short time in which to get it up and running. There are less than two months remaining but we have two years in which to get the results. No one person, be it the Minister or anybody else, can do that unless he or she has the co-operation. It appears from the comments made in this House that there is great support for tackling the problem and as politicians we have a responsibility in that regard. I have a responsibility, as Minister with responsibility for housing, to remove the sore of long-term emergency accommodation and to give some self-esteem to those who have been in such accommodation for up to eight years.

I appreciate the points made by the Senators but I am not in a position to accept the amendment. I ask the Senators to understand my position on it and accept that the final piece of the jigsaw, namely, the implementation plan, is not in place.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Amendments Nos. 6, 7 and 12 are related and may be discussed together.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 10, subsection (1), line 7, to delete "works or services" and substitute "works, services and tenancy services".

I refer to section 11 and we are talking about housing services, which are an important function of local authorities across social and affordable housing, grants, loans, etc. Section 11 refers to ancillary services. If we examine where local authorities have historically delivered housing projects there has been a gaping deficit in the level of support services provided to support the people who live in those estates. We have had tenements in our history and sprawling estates, mainly in our cities, where houses were built and large multitudes of people housed without any support.

I am glad section 11 refers to ancillary services which include roads, shops, playgrounds, places of recreation, parks, allotments, open space, sites for places of worship, factories, schools, offices and other buildings or lands and other such works or services. It is good that the Bill acknowledges that where people live there is a need for supports such as education and recreation.

We are tabling this amendment because we need to acknowledge that tenants live in these housing estates. For a long time Irish property habits has focused on the rights and needs of home owners. The needs and considerations of tenants has been mostly an afterthought. New regulations for the standards of rented accommodation will be introduced only this year, after decades of ignoring horrifically low standards in tenants' conditions. The Bill should expand the definition of ancillary services to include services intended to support tenancies. Even with property prices falling, a significant sector of Irish society cannot afford new dwellings and will remain tenants. When drafting legislation, these people could be considered as much as home owners. For that reason the amendment specifies "works, services and tenancy services" to give a real acknowledgement and definition of tenancy services in legislation.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I want to speak on amendment No. 12 in section 15, which deals with the content of housing services plans. The amendment proposes that in page 13, subsection (2)(a)(i), line 23, after "supports" to insert, "including but not limited to, tenancy services, supported housing, tenancy sustainment, tenancy support and settlement, advice, advocacy and mediation services." The rationale is that this amendment would provide a more detailed explanation of what housing support could mean.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I support the thrust of both these amendments but prefer Senator Hannigan's on behalf of the Labour Party because it includes Senator Coffey's amendment through its reference to "tenancy services". Senator Coffey made a very good case for this and this may be the way of the future, that more people will live in rented accommodation, as they do on the Continent. People will find it very difficult to afford houses, even with the collapse in house prices. It is important we move to a situation whereby tenants in rented accommodation should be also protected and live in decent conditions. The Minister has this in mind and the Government is moving on it, which I very much welcome. Substandard accommodation is not tolerable. I know of some appalling cases of people living in these dreadful, ghastly bed-sitters. The Government is taking action. I rent out an apartment in my house. I have just spent €50,000 on it and it is a hell of a good apartment. I am not milking money out of it and I have declared every penny, partly out of morality and partly because I am too stupid to fiddle tax. I find it a much better policy to be completely open and above board about it.

The other reason I support Senator Hannigan's amendment, which he advocated very well, is that he anticipated a ministerial response. I am in this House long enough to know that sometimes when one puts down such definitions the response is that the Minister agrees with it all but that the amendment is unnecessarily limiting and the recital incomplete. Senator Hannigan and his advisers cleverly anticipated and met this point by including the phrase "including but not limited to" as a pre-emptive strike in amendment No. 12. That is an important element of the amendment. I hope it will help to persuade the Minister of State to accept this amendment.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Section 11 of the Bill replaces and updates section 56(2) of the Housing Act 1966 which, as Senator Coffey has said, empowers local authorities to provide services which are ancillary to the provision of dwellings, such as roads, shops and playgrounds. The services in question are capital in nature. This section of the Bill envisages the provision of supporting infrastructure and amenities rather than services of the type proposed in amendment No. 6. The same issues apply in section 12 of the Bill which empowers the Minster to pay grants or subsidies to housing authorities in respect of specified services, including the provision of ancillary services. Section 10(b) of the Bill sets out the general functions of the housing authority in the provision of housing support and the management and maintenance of dwellings and estates. This would comprehend tenancy services.

Amendment No. 12 also attempts to tackle the issue of the provision of services to tenants. The effect of this amendment may be to confuse the understanding of "housing support", and place some limitations on such support, rather than to bring greater clarity to the matter. The tenancy issues mentioned in the amendment are covered in the definition of "housing support" in section 10 to the extent that they are within the remit of the housing authorities.

I accept what Senator Coffey and others have said about services. Senator Norris made a valid point about bedsits. It was important for us to take action in that regard. While I appreciate that many of the new properties that have come on stream in recent times have better facilities, we continue to have a hangover from other times. Bedsits like those developed in the 1960s, which do not have separate sanitary and kitchen facilities, will no longer be acceptable from 1 February next. The Bill also deals with the appearance of properties. In many streets, it is easy to identify the houses that are rented out as opposed to those occupied by private owners. We are giving responsibility to landlords in that regard. The local authorities are to be given funds to conduct inspections. I hope that will improve conditions. Bedsits will be gone.

I am conscious that a number of Senators have considered it appropriate to suggest amendments to clarify this point. I am prepared to ask the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel to examine this matter and ascertain whether a more explicit reference can be included in this legislation. In that light, I ask Senators Coffey and Hannigan to withdraw the amendments before the House. I will come back to the matter if I can get the Office of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel to agree to include a more explicit reference.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am heartened to hear the Minister of State talking in this fashion. I am willing to withdraw amendments Nos. 6 and 7 for the time being. I hope the Minister of State can examine the matter and provide for further developments at a later stage.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not want to be tedious in taking the Minister of State up on his reference to bedsits. I accept that this matter is not directly connected to the matter under consideration. I hope an inspectorate will be established. Legislation to deal with substandard accommodation is of no use unless properties can be inspected. It should be possible to put out of business those who provide such accommodation. I suggest that the Minister of State might use his good offices to get the inspectorate to look at Nos. 5 and 6 North Great George's Street. It would be very welcome if he could do that. It would be no harm if the houses could be investigated or inspected to see the conditions inside them. I compliment my colleagues, Senators Coffey and Hannigan, on making their points, and the Minister of State on his generous response.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I welcome the Minister of State's response. I am willing to withdraw amendment No. 12, subject to receiving clarification from the Minister of State and his advisers.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank Senators for their understanding. I will come back to them. I assure Senator Norris that local authorities have been given funds to enable them to carry out inspections. Those moneys can be drawn down on the basis of the results achieved. Local authorities cannot draw down these funds until they produce their results. The local authorities are responding. In excess of 14,000 inspections have taken place.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Splendid; well done.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Approximately 240,000 residential properties that are being let out are on the books of our registration system. We are in a good position. We continue to expect local authorities to do the business.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As amendments Nos. 8 and 9 are cognate, they may be discussed together.

Government amendment No. 8:

In page 11, line 39, to delete "local authority" and substitute "housing authority".

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

These amendments replace two references to "local authority" in section 13 with references to "housing authority". All the receipts referred to in the section arise from specific functions carried out under the Housing Acts. Therefore, such moneys are received by local authorities in their capacity as housing authorities. The amendments provide for clarification.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 12, subsection (1)(b), lines 39 and 40, to delete all words from and including "any" in line 39 down to and including "section 21" in line 40 and substitute the following:

"the demand for social housing as outlined in the assessment of need in its administrative area conducted in accordance with section 21".

This amendment relates to the content of housing services plans. We are not happy with section 15(1)(b) which states that in making a housing services plan, a housing authority must have regard to "any summary or summaries of social housing assessments prepared under section 21". As we think the reference could be a little stronger, we propose to amend it so that a housing authority must have regard to "the demand for social housing as outlined in the assessment of need in its administrative area conducted in accordance with section 21". We want to strengthen the reference to the need for social housing, thereby bringing this provision into line with other items under this section.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Section 15(1)(b), as drafted, requires housing authorities to have regard to the details of "social housing assessments prepared under section 21". The summaries in question will identify the need for social housing, as aggregated from a more refined assessment process under section 20. That process provides for resources to be tailored to meet the identified needs of the individual. The proposed amendment would not add anything meaningful to this section of the Bill, or to the process in question. Therefore, I do not intend to accept it.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 13, subsection (2)(a), lines 18 to 22, to delete all words from and including "The" in line 18 down to and including "following:" in line 22 and substitute the following:

"A housing services plan shall also have regard to the following and shall include such further information and priorities related to the following as the Minister may direct:".

This amendment has been tabled to strengthen the legislation. I propose to replace the reference in section 15(2)(a) to "The Minister may direct a housing authority to include in its housing services plan such information as he or she considers necessary, including, but not necessarily limited to, information on, and priorities relating to, each of the following" with a reference to "A housing services plan shall also have regard to the following and shall include such further information and priorities related to the following as the Minister may direct". I want to ensure the items mentioned in section 15(2) are given similar statutory standing to those mentioned in section 15(1).

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This amendment is unnecessary. Section 15(1)(g) provides that, in making a housing services plan, a housing authority must have regard to "any directions given by the Minister under subsection (2)". Sections 15(1) and 15(2) need to be read together. Therefore, any directions given by the Minister in respect of the items listed in sections 15(2)(a)(i) to (v) must be taken into account by housing authorities. I ask the Senator to withdraw the amendment in light of that information.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The difference concerns the definitions of "may" and "shall". I will not press the amendment.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Amendments Nos. 13 and 20 are related and may be discussed together.

Government amendment No. 13:

In page 13, between lines 36 and 37, to insert the following subsection:

"(3) A housing services plan shall include the summary or summaries, prepared under section 21, of the social housing assessments carried out in respect of the administrative area concerned.".

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

These amendments involve the transfer of text specifying material for inclusion in housing service plans to section 15, which deals with the content of the plan, from section 16, which deals with the preparation of the draft plan and the making of the plan. This subsection is more appropriate to the section dealing with the contents of the service plan rather than the process of its making and adoption.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 13, subsection (1), line 39, after "to" to insert "and seek responses from".

This relates to the preparation and making of draft plans. Currently section 16 (1) states, "A housing authority shall prepare a draft of the housing services plan and shall send a copy of the draft housing services plan to [a list of bodies]." We are seeking to amend the subsection in order that a copy of the draft plan will be sent and responses sought. We want to say up front this is not about giving out information but about consultation and involving local communities and organisations in the preparation of the plan.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I also support the amendment because without it, the plan may remain inert in certain aspects and we should seek active engagement with the plan. This Part is important because it deals with the assessment of needs and the provision of a plan by the appropriate authorities in response to that. It is a desirable objective to make the entire process active. Senator Hannigan's amendment goes a good distance to ensuring this will be done. All of us are showered with documents, surveys, plans, questionnaires and briefs. It is endless and an encouragement to respond would be no harm at all.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I support the general thrust of the amendment. Consultation should be a two-way street. Where housing authorities have gone to the trouble of preparing a housing services plan for their administrative area, it should be forwarded to the Minister, every local authority adjoining them and the Health Service Executive. I have not tabled an amendment but it should probably be forwarded to Oireachtas Members as well. I am not sure whether we are listed but we would have an interest. Perhaps we could have an input during the drafting stage of the plan. Consultation is a two-way street and it would be positive to have the views of the bodies listed included the plan. A track record of responses could be built up, which would also be positive.

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I concur with Senator Coffey.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Section 16(1) requires the circulation by the housing authority of a draft housing service plan to the Minister. With regard to specified bodies and persons, amendment No. 21, which concerns section 16(3), clarifies consultation under section 16(1) is confined to the persons listed and it is clear from the amended subsection that written submissions or observations are anticipated from them. The proposed amendment does not add to the provision and I therefore ask the Senator to withdraw it.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Amendments Nos. 15, 16 and 18 are related and may be discussed together.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 14, subsection (1)(d), line 1, after "bodies" to insert the following:

"or other bodies including community based organisations, networks, fora or other representative bodies; voluntary service providers, housing and/or homeless networks and fora; or any other body".

The amendment seeks to strengthen the consultation aspect of the service plan. Amendment No. 16 seeks to insert "or the provision of housing or homeless services" after "shelter" in the same subsection. This also seeks to strengthen the consultation process by naming these organisations.

Amendment No. 18 proposes to insert a new subsection, which states "any recognised association under section 128 of the Local Government Act 2001, and". This would ensure local residents associations are included in the consultation phase of the plan.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In general I support the thrust of the amendments because the development of community organisations and residents associations is valuable. This has been recognised in Dublin. For example, I am on the policing committee for the north inner city and I find that very valuable. The city manager has Oireachtas representatives for the local area in for lunch regularly with all the assistant city managers and that is extremely valuable. I strongly support the sense of the amendments. It is very much part of democracy to bring in community organisations, residents and so on because they are the people on the ground. I am slightly entertained by all the networks, fora, doo-dahs and what nots and, therefore, I am not quite sure about that as it is a little woolly but, on the other hand, I strongly support the intention behind the amendment.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

These amendments generally seek to expand the list of bodies and persons with whom the housing authority formally consults on the draft development plan. I do not consider that the combination of amendments will add to the provision. I am satisfied that the list under section 16(1)(f) is sufficiently broad to cover the groups referred to in the proposed amendments. However, when work is completed on the homeless action plans, I envisage that the homeless fora may need to be included in that listing.

On amendment No. 16, which seeks to expand paragraph (d) of subsection (1) which provides that approved bodies must be consulted, it is important to state that such bodies must have, as primary objects, the relief of housing needs, poverty and hardship. It is also relevant in the context of the proposed amendment to state that they receive their approved status for the purpose of, inter alia, the provision of housing accommodation for homeless persons. The use of the phrase "approved bodies engaged in the provision of accommodation or shelter" in subsection (1)(d) is, I believe, sufficient to cover the work engaged in by approved bodies and the additional phraseology, as proposed, is not necessary in this instance. I have concerns that in trying to draw out the provision there is a danger of excluding a group that would have been covered by the more general term.

Specifically, on amendment No. 18, which proposes to include recognised associations under section 128 of the Local Government Act 2001, I am satisfied that subsection (1)(f) of section 16, which specifies that the draft plan may be made available to local community bodies or any other persons as the housing authority considers appropriate, is sufficient to cover anygroups which are active locally that are relevant. I ask the Senators to withdraw the amendments.

The housing services plan, which will be made within six months of the development plan, will have to have regard to that plan. The development plan, and the housing strategy therein, is subject to full public consultation. Consequently, a broad constituency of groups will have had an opportunity to make submission on overall goals, including the quantum of housing demand and need at that stage, and it would be inappropriate to repeat this process within a short time. The groups listed, and the local groups the manager might also include, will be those with particular interest——

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am sorry for interrupting the Minister of State, but the sos is ordered. I ask Senator Hannigan to report progress.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister for his partial response. I will not press the amendment.

Pat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Just report progress, we will resume on the Bill.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State is off to lunch without accepting amendments. Can he give us any hope for the afternoon?

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I hope to be here.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, was replying to Deputy Hannigan.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I understood Senator Hannigan was in possession.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

From recollection, the Minister of State was rudely interrupted and had not finished what he was going to state, although I declared I intended to withdraw the amendment which might help to expedite his response.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I was discussing section 128 of the Local Government Act 2001 which provides that a local authority may by resolution declare a body which promotes the interest of a local community to be a recognised association and allows for the provision of assistance to such an association and for the delegation of certain functions to it. The purpose of this provision is not to relieve local authorities of their statutory responsibilities nor does it imply any substitution of private effort for State and local government funded works. Its purpose is to provide a response to a genuine local demand to promote participation in and ownership of projects at local level, to harness the goodwill of recognised associations and to give purpose and meaning to the partnership model at practical level or to deal with particular local circumstances, such as works on an island, which may be more appropriately carried out directly by a local community.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This amendment is proposed to clarify that the Traveller accommodation consultative committees to be consulted by a housing authority on a draft housing services plan are those committees directly concerned with the plan and in the area covered by the plan. The qualification is already included where appropriate in the other paragraphs of section 16(1) relating to other categories of body to be consulted on the draft plan.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I move amendment No. 19:

In page 14, between lines 8 and 9, to insert the following subsection:

"(2) Where the proposals submitted by bodies referred to in subsection (1) are not incorporated into the housing services plan, the housing authority shall furnish reasons for not incorporating those proposals.".

This amendment seeks to include a clause after the end of section 16(1) and its purpose is to bring the section in line with local area plans whereby if the manager decides not to take account of a proposal he or she provides a reason. A similar provision should be included as it would strengthen the idea of consultation. If these bodies go to the trouble of making a submission and commenting on the draft plan, it needs to be clear that their comments have been taken on board.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not believe the addition of a statutory requirement on the housing authorities to provide explanations will serve any useful purpose in this instance. The important characteristic of this provision is that it is undertaken in a public way with appropriate consultation opportunities, executive assessment by the manager and debate and adoption by the elected members of the council. Importantly, the Minister may, for stated reasons, require the housing authority to amend the draft plan in order that the adopted plan takes full account of the matters specified in section 15(1). The adopted plan must be made available for public inspection, including publication on the Internet. In these circumstances, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. As one who spent some time on local authorities I feel this is necessary. Otherwise, I would be concerned that in some instances the managers will not respond and will not tell the various organisations why they failed to take account of their proposals. I cannot let this rest.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Under section 16(5), the manager is required to prepare and submit a report to elected members which will include any submissions or observations from the parties consulted. This report will be available for discussion by elected members in the context of adopting the plan.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am calling for that vote to be invalidated because the bells did not ring in the main restaurant or any part of the House. I was in the presence of the Government Chief Whip and other colleagues, as well as Senator Ormonde and Senator Ross, and the bells did not ring for the vote.

Frances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The bells did ring.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

How is it we heard them?

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That might be the case.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No tellers have asked for the vote to be re-taken. The vote has been taken.

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Can our names be noted?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

No.

Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

On a point of order, I was in the corridors and they did not ring there either.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I was in Leinster House 2000 and I heard them.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I heard them in Grafton Street.

Dominic Hannigan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is the second time this has happened in two weeks. There might be a problem with the system.

Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I was also in the restaurant and I did not hear them.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Do the tellers want the vote to be re-taken?

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We do not really want that, but can the names of those who were in the restaurant be noted?

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The names can only be recorded if there is a vote.

Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We want the vote to be re-taken.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is Senator Ross proposing that the vote be taken again?

Shane Ross (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes, absolutely.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Who seconds the proposal?

Donie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I second it.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will others who want the vote to be re-taken stand?

Senators Cassidy, Ormonde, Ross, Glynn and Butler stood.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is gerrymandering by Fianna Fáil again.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The vote will be taken again by manual means.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Amendment Nos. 21 and 22 are related and alternatives and can be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Government amendment No. 21:

In page 14, lines 12 to 14, to delete subsection (3) and substitute the following:

"(3) Written submissions or observations with respect to the draft housing services plan may be made by the persons specified in subsection (1) to the housing authority within 6 weeks from the date on which the draft plan is sent under subsection (1).".

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Government amendment substitutes the existing subsection (3) with a new subsection (3) and makes two changes to the text. It clarifies that consultation is confined to the persons listed in Section 16 (1). It also provides that the period of submission for draft housing service plans begins from the date of issue of the draft plan rather than the date of its preparation. Under the provision as it stands delay in issuing the draft plan reduces the time available to the persons listed in section 16 (1) to comment on it.

Regarding the first change, while the former consultation process under section 16 is confined to persons listed in Section 16 (1), other interested parties are not excluded from the process. There is extensive public consultation in the preparation of a development plan which incorporates the housing strategy on which the housing services plan is based. In addition, as proposals for a draft housing services plan will be tabled before Members, the consultation process is very open and anyone can make known his or her views to elected representatives for input to the deliberative process.

I refer to the Opposition amendment No. 22. I am keen to ensure the creation and adoption of a housing services plan is carried out in a timely and efficient manner. No matter what timeframes are chosen, there always will be demands for extensions to those limits. However, I believe the limits in the Bill are reasonable and will help to concentrate minds to have a plan adopted. In those circumstances, I ask that the Senators withdraw their amendments.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Amendment No. 22 asks for an additional two weeks. This gives more time to respond to the proposed services plan, further strengthening the process. That is worth taking on board and I would ask the Minister of State to do so.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The housing services plan must be made within six weeks of the adoption of the development plan. I consider this to be an appropriate timeframe to ensure compatibility within the two documents. Within this period, the timeframe for preparation and consultation is properly apportioned. While there is a formal statutory requirement to consult, I would expect ongoing inter-agency group work during preparation of the housing strategy, so that the housing authority will be aware of the priorities mentioned by the groups when preparing a draft plan for consultation through formal engagements.

Considering what the Senators have said, I will have a look at this with the Parliamentary Counsel and I will get back to them. I am not giving any definite promise but we will see if we can accommodate the views of the Senators.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I agree with that sentiment. I thank the Minister of State for making that offer to us.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This amendment is required because there is no prior reference to the housing authority in the sentence. Therefore, it is not correct to "its housing service plan" in subsection (1).

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I move amendment No. 25:

In page 16, subsection 4(a), line 26, after "social" to insert ", economic or cultural".

This amendment strengthens the provision on avoiding undue social segregation. It is supported by Focus Ireland and other groups which feel this would enhance the legislation.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is the same phraseology that is used in Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000, and is similar to the term "social inclusion" reflected in local government legislation. I am satisfied that the word "social" in its normal use, that is, pertaining to society, is sufficiently broad to encompass economic, cultural, ethnic and other issues. Therefore, I do not propose to accept the amendment.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I am slightly disappointed with that. When something is referred to in previous legislation in a particular way, that should not be a reason for not doing something which is beneficial and will enhance the Bill. Adding "economic or cultural" would extend the meaning, and we would not have to rely on what is customarily understood in the use of the word "social". I am disappointed with the Minister of State's response but I do not intend to push it to a vote. I ask that he reconsider.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The word "social", in its normal usage, embraces economic, cultural, social, ethnic and other issues. It is in existing legislation, so I do not propose to accept the amendment.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It has not been enacted previously.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State said that the phrase included cultural and economic aspects. I am not sure if it does that. Margaret Thatcher drew a very clear distinction between society and the economy when she said that we had an economy and that society was a very detached object. To prevent that Thatcherite confusion, it might be worth looking at the Senator's amendment again. It is not automatic that "social" includes all these areas.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Social inclusion is in existing legislation. The interpretation has been that it encompasses economic, cultural, ethnic and other issues. By adding one or two pieces to it, we may be excluding something else. If we leave it as it is, it will be interpreted as including all those areas. I do not want to exclude any group or person.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I move amendment No. 26:

In page 16, subsection 4, between lines 29 and 30, to insert the following:

"(c) ensure adequate provision of housing to prevent and reduce homelessness.".

Chapter 3 relates to the question of social housing support. The Bill should place homelessness as a top priority. This amendment is intended to advance that idea. The amendment aims to ensure that housing authorities have due regard to provide housing for homeless people in their housing service plans. The amendment would strengthen the Bill in the area of homelessness. The Minister of State spoke at length about "The Way Forward" strategy and about his proposals on the implementation plan. If this is set in legislation, it will give homelessness a high priority. Any housing authority member who reads this Bill will see that the Oireachtas has placed homelessness at the very top of its list of priorities. We propose this amendment in the hope that the Minister of State takes it on board.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I support this amendment. It is a deficiency in the Bill that there is insufficient recognition of the significant problem of homelessness. I know it is the Minister of State's intention to deal with this, as he has clearly indicated. He has ambitious plans and we believe him, but in this section we have the matter of segregation between persons of different social backgrounds, as well as mixed dwelling types. Other categories are clearly specified, yet there is no mention of the homeless who are glaringly absent. Senator Coffey's amendment is very reasonable and I hope the Minister of State will be able to take it on board. Even if the Minister of State regards it as redundant to a certain degree, it does not conflict with the intention of the Bill or with his stated views in the House, as far as I understand them. If the Minister of State accepted the amendment, it would be an indication that it is worth our while arguing here because to date not one Opposition amendment has been accepted. I am watching with great interest to see if any Opposition amendments will be accepted whose constitutional remit is to amend and revise legislation in the best interests of the people.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I also support this amendment which speaks for itself. The prevention and reduction of homelessness should be a part of any local authority's strategy. Any housing strategy that does not include such a measured objective would certainly be deficient.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This amendment is not appropriate for inclusion in section 19. The section provides the general power for housing authorities to provide or manage the provision of social housing support and is essentially a restatement of section 56 of the Housing Act 1966. However, section 19 is more comprehensive with an updated power for housing authorities to provide what is now a broader range of social housing supports. It should also be read with section 10 which lists the broader range of housing supports, including specifically the provision of services for homeless people.

The proposed amendment seeks to include in subsection (4) a specific reference to the prevention and reduction of homelessness, but such an insertion is not appropriate to this subsection. Section 19 deals with how the housing authority delivers support, not the objectives of that support in terms of targeted households. While earlier sections deal with powers — for example, to acquire or build dwellings — subsection (4) provides that, in carrying out its social housing support functions, a housing authority must have regard to its housing services plan, as set out in chapter 2, but in particular the need to counteract segregation between persons of different social backgrounds and to ensure that housing authorities provide an appropriate mix of dwelling types and sizes and tenure types. This is an important provision in ensuring, in particular, that estates built by housing authorities have a good mix of house types for different sizes of household and are not mono-tenure. We are moving away from large-scale, mono-tenure social housing estates and, therefore, this provision is an important component of the drive to build sustainable communities.

The housing services plan referred to provides the platform for the ultimate delivery of housing supports and the new assessment and allocation provisions in sections 20, 21 and 22 give practical effect to this planning. It is in this area that the priorities are set for tackling the needs of different groups, including the homeless.

Section 20 is the basis for the new assessment of need and provides regulatory powers to set eligibility criteria and to describe and classify need, which will include homelessness. Section 22 provides housing authorities with a new system to ensure a better fit between needs and resources and to respond, as far as possible, to the expressed preferences of individual households. Allocations can be made to particular classes of household. In certain circumstances, a housing authority can allocate a dwelling outside the scheme of letting priorities — for example, where a household is displaced due to a fire or flood, both relevant in the case of homelessness, or some other emergency.

Under the new approach, each authority will adopt a new allocation scheme, which will allow for local discretion within the national framework. In this way, it is hoped to strengthen the link between local needs and the subsequent provision of resources, as well as ensuring consistency in the way in which applicants for social housing are prioritised.

As the Bill deals more generally with the issue raised by the Senator, I ask him to withdraw this amendment.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Together with a number of other Senators, I acknowledged the progressive nature and general thrust of the Bill, which will certainly improve housing services. We are adamant that homelessness should be given a higher priority in this Bill. The amendment merely seeks to insert an additional subsection (c) to section 19(4) to "ensure adequate provision of housing to prevent and reduce homelessness".

As various Senators outlined, in the context of housing legislation, homelessness is an important and significant issue, which we wish to put to a vote. I propose that the amendment stands.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As I said, in line with the homelessness strategy, I intend to put on a statutory basis the homelessness action plan by bringing forward amendments during the passage of the Bill. I spoke about that plan before lunch today. Such plans will deal with the implementation issue as well as addressing the concerns that have been expressed. I know that they are two different sections, but I have put that on the record of the House. I reiterate that there will be an opportunity for the implementation plan to be placed on a statutory basis. I am not accepting the amendment on account of that, as I explained earlier.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Minister of State clarify once more where he proposes to allow for the implementation of the homelessness strategy in this legislation? While I am sorry to ask him to reiterate this, I would appreciate it if he would do so because this is a very important matter. I do not doubt the Minister of State's genuine concerns in this area and I acknowledge the work he has done on the homelessness strategy, including The Way Home document he produced in August. As he said, however, a plan is not worth the paper it is written on without an implementation plan, resources and an acknowledgement by all sectors of society, from top to bottom. We are trying to frame legislation so that homelessness will be clearly identified and acknowledged. If the Minister of State can clarify that point we may consider withdrawing the amendment.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I support Senator Coffey again on this matter. The movement from this side of the House is in support of the Minister of State's stated objectives. Should it come to pass, however, that Senator Coffey feels compelled to call a vote, I suggest that we should go through the division lobbies in light of the earlier debacle. In addition to a physical vote, we might also secure the services of a town crier, dressed in 18th century costume, to go through the corridors ensuring that everybody hears the division bells.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Is the Senator speaking to the amendment?

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yes, that is an additional flourish to the amendment. I passed a number of people in the corridors and while I had the bells ringing in my ears, they were unable to hear them. Perhaps if there was a visual attraction as well, along the lines that I have suggested, they might turn up in the division lobbies.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will not comment on the workings of the bells of the House. To clarify the situation for Senator Coffey, it is during the passage of this Bill that I will put those provisions of the implementation plan on a statutory basis. They are included. In the strategy I announced in August, I referred to this. The Way Home strategy outlines the approach to local homeless action plans and indicates they will be put on a statutory basis.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will the Minister of State clarify this point further? What he says is interesting in that he suggests it is within the passage of the Bill that these regulations are spelled out. However, I do not see them in the text of the Bill so how will that be done within the passage of the Bill? The Minister of State has unintentionally muddied the water because I am sure it must be after the passage of the Bill that he proposes to spell them out. The regulations may exist on paper somewhere in the Department but, as far as I know, they have not been laid before the House, although I could be wrong on this. I would welcome the Minister of State's illumination on this point.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We are only on Committee Stage. The implementation plan will be in place before the end of the year but it is not in place as we stand.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Not before the passage of the Bill. I think the Minister of State intends that the Bill should pass in anticipation of these matters, but those will not form part of the Bill. That is the point I am trying to clarify.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The position is we are working on the Committee Stage amendment and that work is continuing as we speak. It is a work in progress and it will be part of this legislation.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Will that happen in the Seanad? Will this come as an amendment from the Minister of State on Report Stage, given it is not in the Bill at present, or does the Minister of State anticipate that the Bill will take longer than just this afternoon and he will have an amendment for us the next time the House sits to discuss this matter?

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not expect it will be in place during Committee Stage in the Seanad. However, as the Senator knows, the legislation will finally come back to the House in which it was initiated. For explanation purposes, there are a number of other provisions that are also being worked on by the Attorney General, such as the sale of flats in Dublin, which we may deal with later, and that type of issue. We are awaiting final clearance from the Attorney General on certain matters but not on this one. This concerns the implementation plan and I expect it will be included on Committee Stage in the Dáil.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is unsatisfactory. It is the responsibility of the Minister of State's Department to present a complete Bill to the Seanad. While I am sorry to have to say this because I know he is working hard on this, as are his staff, the Minister of State has produced an incomplete Bill, which is not appropriate. I repeat that the Minister of State is attributing to the Dáil functions that properly accrue to Seanad Éireann. This Bill should be presented in this Chamber in full with all its working parts and not left as a kind of half moth-eaten document to be completed by the Dáil. It is not painting by numbers.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not for one minute doubt the genuine attempts of the Minister of State who, while he has been in office for a relatively short time, has done enormous work in the whole area of housing and homelessness, which I publicly acknowledge. However, I concur with Senator Norris. I am a relatively new Senator, having only been here since July last year, but I have a lot of respect for this House and the work it does. I am disappointed we more or less have a half-baked Bill, if I understand this correctly. There are implementation plans, housing strategies and regulations over which this legislation will form an umbrella. As Senators, we would like at an early stage to have the same opportunity to debate the full context of housing, homelessness and all that goes with it as has any Member of Dáil Éireann. Every Senator present has taken a genuine interest in the Bill and we have put down amendments for genuine reasons, to try to enhance what we acknowledge is a progressive Bill. For those reasons, I propose the amendment.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Exactly.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I reject totally that there is any question of this being a half-baked Bill. There is a simple explanation. The Bill was published in advance of the strategy, which came afterwards. I am sure the House would want me to put the implementation plan on a statutory basis as soon as possible. I am being as helpful as I can to the House and to the people in having it included in this legislation and in getting the matter of the homelessness implementation plan on a statutory basis and up and running as soon as possible so we can implement it, as I said, in 2009 and 2010. The simple explanation is that the homelessness strategy was announced by me in August of this year, which was after the Bill was published.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I call Senator Norris. We have given this a fairly good airing.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I will conclude because Senator Bacik and I have teased out the issue. Our difficulty is that while we welcome the implementation plan, this is all theory unless we put something into action. However, the Minister of State appeared to suggest that when it went to the Dáil, there would be a further legislative development which had not been considered at that point by this House. That is inappropriate and nothing the Minister of State has said so far has convinced me otherwise.

When will the Bill go to the Dáil? I presume it is not a matter that can be left forever because once this Bill passes in the Seanad in the next week or so, it will then go to the Dáil. The Minister of State is anticipating it being law by Christmas so it might very well go to the Lower House very rapidly. I want to know why we are not given the opportunity to scrutinise something that will apparently be scrutinised as part of the Bill in the Dáil.

I have been, as Senator Coffey very kindly pointed out, long enough in this House to know the way legislation works. If it was just a question of a completely separate set of regulations, it would not be an issue because provisions are frequently made for regulations to be determined afterwards by the Minister. This seems to be something more than that because the Dáil is being given the opportunity to consider it but we are being deprived of that opportunity. Perhaps as a sop, we may get an opportunity to put the Bill through on the nod, as amended by the Dáil, but that is not what this House was intended to do. I regret to have to say this to the Minister of State because I know he intends the best. We want to support him in this, particularly in dealing with the situation of homelessness.

Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

While I can understand the concerns, to be fair to the Minister of State, these issues were raised on Second Stage by both sides of the House — I raised them too.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I agree, we want to offer support.

Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State gave undertakings in responding on Second Stage, and he has repeated them here, that there will be an amendment in this area and in other areas such as the sale of apartments to tenants, not only in Dublin but in other parts of the country. That could happen on Report Stage here or it could be on Committee Stage or Report Stage in the Dáil.

Paudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is not good enough.

Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In any case, because this House is instigating this Bill, it must come back here for final scrutiny. There will still be plenty of opportunity to consider this amendment as and when it comes, and to comment appropriately.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The House is being treated with contempt, given the way this has been introduced. The Minister of State gave undertakings on Second Stage but when amendments such as these are tabled on Committee Stage, Committee Stage should be postponed until proper amendments to deal with this specific matter are put before us. It is not acceptable to be told an amendment may be tabled on Report Stage or it may be amended in the Dáil. That is treating this House with contempt. The entire Bill should be postponed on Committee Stage if amendments such as these are being put before the House rather than dealing with the issue in a haphazard way such as we are doing now. We do not know what will come to us next week, before Christmas or after Christmas. We are being treated with contempt, and we will press this amendment.

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The intention was not for this to reflect badly on the House in any way. If anything, the intention was to reflect favourably on the House by initiating the legislation here, as somebody who spent 14 years in this House. Senators will have an opportunity to debate every part of the Bill because as they are aware, a Bill must come back to the House in which it is initiated.

We are all aware that Government amendments, or any other amendments, can be brought forward at any time. It is important to remember that this Bill was published in advance of the homeless strategy but one other piece of the jigsaw, namely, the implementation plan for the homeless strategy, has yet to be finally agreed. As I put it to the House earlier, we will have a half-day gathering with the stakeholders to finalise our discussions in advance of the implementation plan which I expect to have published before the end of the year and then put on a statutory basis. Members of this House will have an opportunity to deal with it on that basis. The Lower House will deal with this matter after this House has dealt with it but as Members are aware, it can come back to this House if amendments arise at a later stage.

To hold back the Bill would not be in the best interests of the implementation of the homeless strategy or of the many provisions in this legislation, including the incremental loans scheme and other ones. This is a broad-ranging Bill and there is a great opportunity for both Houses to debate it. Following clearance from the Attorney General's office more amendments will be tabled. We are responding to a public need. I refer in particular to the strategy. We do not need the Attorney General's clearance on that but we need it on the area dealing with the sale of flats. I cannot bring legislation into this House that has not been cleared by the Attorney General's office. That would be foolhardy as it would be thrown out in some other forum. This House is being given priority in having the legislation initiated here.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I call Senator Doherty. We are beginning to rehash the debate on this amendment.

Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I was about to welcome the fact that the homeless strategy implementation plan would be put on a statutory footing as part of this Bill but having heard the Minister of State's latest comments, I am not sure if that is his intention. He said he hopes to publish it by the end of the year and that it will then be put on a statutory footing. We need some clarity on this issue. Will the implementation plan be part of this Bill regardless of whether it is amended in the Seanad or the Dáil? All of the parties broadly support the Bill and all we want to do is strengthen it. We focused on the homelessness issue as part of the Bill. It is not something that should arise as an additional amendment at a later stage. We should have the amendment at this stage but that is beside the point. Can the Minister of State give some clarification? Will the implementation plan be part of the final Bill and when does he expect the final Bill to pass all Stages in both Houses?

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Senator Doherty has very succinctly expressed what I would like to find out. With regard to the Minister of State's wonderful jigsaw analogy, he will not win any prizes for a jigsaw that, as he admits, has a significant piece missing. I have done jigsaws in my misspent youth. The whole point was to get them finished. The Minister of State will not get a prize for an incomplete jigsaw, either in the real world or in this Chamber.

Dan Boyle (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is only the corner piece.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

How green does Senator Boyle think this eye is? I will make one constructive suggestion and not continue with this matter. We must get ahead and have our vote. When the Minister of State has answered Senator Doherty's very reasonable questions and if it turns out that this material part of the Bill will not be given primary consideration in this House but left to the other House, I suggest the appropriate approach would be to go through the Bill to its conclusion of Committee Stage today, the next day or whenever but delay Report Stage, which will be gone through fairly rapidly, until this amendment is produced, at which point it can be discussed, as it should be, in this House. That is a compromise that allows the Minister of State to complete Committee Stage today and then introduce Report Stage. I imagine the period between when it is completed in this House and then goes to the Dáil will only be a matter or days. For the sake of a few days can we not have a complete Bill in this House if, as Senator Doherty has asked, this plan is to be an integral part of the Bill as passed by the Oireachtas?

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The local action plans are part of the implementation plan. This issue will be put on a statutory footing but some of the implementation issues do not need to be put on a statutory footing. I want to make that distinction. Some of the implementation plan will need a legislative framework and some of it will not. I repeat that the statutory part of the implementation plan will be part of this Bill. That must be the fourth time I have said that.

David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I asked the Minister of State a specific and clear question and I would like an answer to it. Is he prepared to postpone Report Stage? It cannot affect the timetable for the passage of the Bill in any significant sense if he delays Report Stage until this House gets an opportunity to discuss it. Otherwise, I will begin to suspect the Minister of State's good faith in this respect. What is the point of sacrificing Seanad Éireann to which I know the Minister of State has some vestigial loyalty. He spent 14 years in this House and he was a good and valued colleague. Why are we not being given sight of an integral, significant part of the Bill until it goes to the Dáil? Why are we being requested merely to rubber-stamp it? That is not the function of this House.

Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister of State for clarifying the position because I and other Members were not clear as to his intentions in terms of the homeless strategy implementation plan. The second part of that question, and it arises out of the Minister of State's comment that he intends to publish the plan by the end of the year, is when he expects the Bill to be in effect. If he is only publishing the plan at the end of the year, we are talking about February. I presume the Houses will not convene until the end of January and therefore it will be February or March. Will the Minister of State outline to the House when he intends that this Bill will conclude all Stages?

Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is a matter for the Houses to organise their business through the Whips. We cannot delay the progress on the legislation and I will not delay it. We have indicated here in respect of a number of amendments that we must go back to the Parliamentary Counsel. The same must apply to those that must be dealt with in the future. It is a work in progress and parliamentarians understand that. No piece of legislation walks through both Houses without amendments and Ministers going back, listening to Members and saying they will get the Parliamentary Counsel to examine them, as I have done on three or four occasions today. However I stated the sequence of events very clearly in my Second Stage speech and I outlined that we were still at a stage where some parts of it had to be dealt with by the Attorney General's office. Earlier today I said the implementation plan is to be in place by the end of the year. Then we can move whatever provisions need legislation into the legislative framework. It is a practical way of getting this major piece of legislation into place.