Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is Nos. 1, 2 and 23. No. 1, the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Bill 2005 — Committee Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 4 p.m.; No. 2, the Diplomatic Relations and Immunities (Amendment) Bill 2005 — Second Stage, to be taken at 4 p.m. until 5 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; and No. 23, motion 24, to be taken at 5 p.m. and to conclude at 7 p.m. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. until 2 p.m. If No. 1 concludes before 3.30 p.m., No. 2 will commence at 3.30 p.m.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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We are in the middle of what is probably the longest ever election campaign.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Do not tell me.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The role of the national broadcaster is crucial in terms of ensuring that all voices in Irish politics are heard and that all arguments are put by Government and Opposition. In that context, I strongly support the comments made by the Labour Party leader, Deputy Rabbitte, in which he highlighted the refusal by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to appear with him on a television programme to debate issues of crime. No Minister has the right to dictate or bully RTE or anyone else concerning the terms on which he or she will go on record.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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He did not do so.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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This same gentleman wanted to go man to man with a Deputy from my party but funked a debate with the leader of the Labour Party. If this is the start of the election campaign, we need a better response from the Government. It should not hide from debating the important issues of the day with the Opposition nor should it bully and dictate to the national broadcaster, which has a duty to make sure all voices are heard.

I endorse the comments made by Senator Norris yesterday on the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. He called for a debate in which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform could explain to us the rationale and the openness of the decisions it makes.

A further issue which has arisen with regard to the Refugee Appeals Tribunal is the appointment of solicitors and barristers to review cases. These people are selected on the principle that it is a handy nixer. There is no transparency when it comes to the Refugee Appeals Tribunal or accountability for the selection of people who determine the outcome of important appeals. The only condition is that one must be a member or a former member of Government parties. We need a debate on that issue and I want it to be held as soon as possible.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is correct in that one cannot get a reply from the tribunal.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I agree with the points made by Senator Brian Hayes regarding the balance in RTE. From my experience over many years, the whole world appears to have dealt with this, including Ministers from all parties and colours. Ministers have often refused to sit in a studio——

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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With people such as the Senator.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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——with people such as myself. I have grown sick and tired of it and I have complete sympathy with the comments made by Senator Brian Hayes. On such occasions, RTE should not back down, and I have argued the case with the body before. Not only should it not back down, but if a Minister does not appear, RTE should not feel the need to be devil's advocate on behalf of somebody who refuses to appear. This is constantly happening. It is the duty of the national broadcaster to carry out its purpose. This issue is not as simple as a Minister deciding he will not engage with a member of the Opposition, and it affects all walks of a civil society where Ministers refuse to engage with people who want to take them on. There is a wider issue at stake than what occurred last night.

Senator Mansergh has raised on many occasions the question of freight transport. A recent report by the European group based in Paris which examines rail transport pointed out that the growth in the number of passengers using Irish railways is the fastest in Europe. On the other hand, it indicated that the record in Irish freight transport is appalling, and usage is reducing. We have raised the matter in the Seanad on a number of occasions, and I recall Senator Mansergh discussing in particular the trans-Munster freight line which was mooted for a while before the new bridge was built in Cahir. That is merely a side note.

In the middle of this, Guinness announced yesterday that it would move its transport of beer kegs completely from rail to road. Approximately 1.5 million kegs will be moved from rail to road transport. This is not the transportation of tissue boxes, but heavily-laden trucks careering unnecessarily over roads, causing traffic congestion, great danger and pollution. This also reduces a rail service which is there to be used. It makes no sense whatever.

What is Government policy on the matter? Some 18 months ago, I raised the issue of the reduction in the usage of rail freight services provided by CIE. I wish to know what is happening. Is the reduction coming about because we do not have an easily accessible system of transferring freight from trucks to rail, such as moving containers from one to the other? What is the difficulty? This reflects a problem which can be dealt with. People ask what we are doing about traffic congestion, and this is a classic example of a problem. How many trucks will it take to carry 1.5 million kegs of beer, not only on the main arteries but on every road in Ireland where there are pubs or Guinness depots?

It is a crazy scenario caused by backward thinking, and it is causing great difficulties on the roads. I would like the Minister for Transport to appear in this House so we could explain that it is unacceptable to wind down transport and rail infrastructure when we talk of opening the western corridor and giving more attention to the Rosslare to Limerick line, etc. We should oppose this strongly.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I agree with Senator Brian Hayes on the issue of RTE, but we are used to that body being more susceptible to a Fianna Fáil-dominated Government's pressures.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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What about the Workers Party?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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We only have to remember the famous programme on Fine Gael, the equivalent of which RTE would not dare produce if it concerned Fianna Fáil. RTE would back down and run away before it would do it.

A Senator:

The war is not over yet.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Did the Senator watch last week's "Late Late Show"?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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RTE would never traduce a Fianna Fáil leader in Opposition the way it traduced Deputy Noonan. It would not dare, as it is not in its spirit or its water to do it.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Just look at the coverage of Charlie Haughey.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The lack of coverage, more like.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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While I am used to RTE's capitulation, I am not used to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform running away from the leader of the Labour Party. It is a commentary on the failure of the Government on the law and order issue, the protection of our citizens and leaving them feeling safe on the streets, that the Minister is afraid to debate the issue with the leader of the second-largest party in Dáil Éireann. That is a fact which should upset this country. We are used to RTE, but we now have a Minister who is afraid to debate. Perhaps he is afraid of losing his temper——

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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He is not afraid to debate the matter.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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——and of using another Nazi analogy or another offensive term. Perhaps he is merely afraid.

Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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He is not afraid of the Senator's party.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Perhaps he will come in to debate the matter here in the slightly more salubrious atmosphere of the Seanad. Some way or another, this Minister has to debate the issue of why he has failed to protect citizens from crime on the streets.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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If he does not do it on television he should do it in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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He does. He is here the whole time.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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He debates it here.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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He debates it more than any other Member.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Fianna Fáil is so proud of him that it demands that he come to talk to its parliamentary party to explain his failure. That is how proud the party is. We should have less of the wind and more of the reality. We are in a position where the Garda is less and less successful at solving crime and where people living in middle and working class estates are frightened to go out at night. The Government pretends and blusters while running away from debate. The sooner we debate the matter, the better.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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On the issue raised by Senator O'Toole, it has been my view that for at least 40 years, the Department of Finance has wanted to close down our railways. There is no other logical reason to explain why there is an obstacle to expanding the rail network every step of the way. Sheer pressure forced us to expand passenger rail, and the Department is clearly determined not to allow the same to happen to freight. It is an economic, environmental and infrastructural disaster to allow rail freight to be run down.

Regardless of whether it needs public policy, funding, etc., it is up to the Government to sort out Iarnród Éireann, explaining to the company and those involved in large-scale transport that the best option environmentally and economically is rail transport. We must find out why it has not panned out like this, and not just accept it. Every other country in western Europe makes extensive use of rail for freight purposes, and it is up to us to do so also.

I ask the Leader for a debate in the immediate future on the issue of water pollution in our rivers. The EPA has issued a report stating that one third of all our river water is polluted, with two causes of pollution identified as agriculture and sewage. One of these, at least, is a matter of public policy, and it is extremely serious. We discuss tourism, etc., but the entirety of inland tourism will collapse if all our rivers are polluted. It is an extremely critical issue and I ask for an urgent debate.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader if she will consider inviting the appropriate Minister to discuss the question of legislation governing charitable collections, of which there are a great many. A number of major charitable organisations are legitimate but others are only purporting to be so in obtaining funds from a generous public.

I am not relating this to a case which arose on St. Patrick's Day at the Sacred Heart church in Roscommon, where a Polish person was begging and had €11,000 in his pocket when he was arrested by a garda, Michael Finnegan. The person was yesterday brought before the District Court in Roscommon. This is just an indication of what is happening. I compliment the Garda Síochána for its vigilance and Garda Michael Finnegan in particular.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator looking for a debate on the issue?

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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He did not get €20 from the Senator anyway.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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This is the Government's new crime policy.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is looking for his money back.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to express to the Leader of the House the need for legislation governing all collections, not just examples like this, which are governed already. At the moment, any organisation can be established, receive charitable status and hold collections. In this case, the Polish person did not have any licence but he was collecting. The people of Roscommon were generous, but not to the level of €11,000.

Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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He had just come from Sligo.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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He came from Galway. Mr. Justice Tom Fitzpatrick interjected that we were in the wrong business.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator asking for a debate on the issue?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am but I do not expect one today. I am trying to highlight the fact that people are being ripped off in this way. I commend the vigilance of the Garda Síochána — the real Garda Síochána, not the reserve force.

A Senator:

They are getting through to the Senator.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the decision of the Medical Council to investigate the three consultants who cleared Dr. Michael Neary. It is a positive step forward in the area of medical etiquette.

I support the call for a debate on refugees and associated issues. As was seen recently in Mullingar, there is strong evidence that a number of organised gangs from eastern Europe operate in the State. A number have been caught but many have not, so it would be an ideal opportunity to argue the case for the genuine refugee and for excluding those who are here for one thing only, namely, the rich pickings they gain by targeting people in rural areas. In a recent incident in Mullingar they were ejected from a shop——

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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This is wonderful a day after the report on racism.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Glynn without interruption.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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——and rightly so, Senator Ryan. We always hear the argument for the transgressor, never for the offender.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Senator should choose his language carefully.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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It is regrettable that this should be so but it is something we hear ad nauseam from the Opposition benches.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I support Senator O'Toole's call for a debate on road freight policy. The firm to which he referred is based in the city centre, right beside the railway, but feels it necessary to send an enormous number of trucks onto our roads. We are all aware of the serious accidents in which they have recently been involved in Dublin city.

I also ask the Leader if we can pursue as soon as possible the proposal of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs for a debate on his plans for eliminating poverty in single-parent families and all families on low incomes. The Minister has a genuine interest in this issue.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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As I do.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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It is not a party political issue because every Member of this House wants to lift children out of poverty.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I tend to deprecate heavy-handed political attacks on our public service broadcaster, whether from Government or Opposition. It tries to do the best job it can.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It was an attack on a Minister.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should not misinterpret people.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mansergh without interruption.

A Senator:

Who caused Kevin O'Kelly to be locked up?

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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The Irish RM.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Political thinking was maturing at that time but there now exists one of the best relationships between Government and a public service broadcaster. Compared with Italy, France and even, on occasion, Britain we have a genuinely high-quality, independent public service broadcaster and I am surprised it is attacked by the Labour Party.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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We have a great relationship with RTE.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator O'Toole's call for a debate on road freight policy. He referred to the Limerick-Rosslare line as an example but if the closure of the Mallow sugar factory had been foreseen three years ago perhaps the bridge over the viaduct in Cahir would not have been repaired. We can take great satisfaction in the development and modernisation of all our passenger rail services, including Luas. However, freight services have been run down and we will have to grit our teeth and provide some subsidy, which is the case in practically every other country. The Department of Finance may not, however, be in favour.

Senator O'Toole also referred to Guinness. I have happy memories of the little steam trains going from the Guinness depot into Heuston Station. God be with those days.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I remember the barges.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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There were barges on the Shannon.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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As a former employee of RTE and a member of the NUJ, I would defend to the last the right of RTE journalists to decide who appears on their programmes.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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However, we must remember that RTE plays a very important role in our democracy by ensuring debates on important public issues take place and that senior politicians, particularly Ministers, are questioned and held to account for their actions.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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That did not happen last night.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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If they appear they are damned; if they do not they are damned.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Meara without interruption.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come to this House.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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He does so regularly.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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Let us hold him to account for his lack of stewardship on crime, which has been clearly shown in a survey commissioned by his own Department on the extent of public concern over his and his Department's failure to tackle the issue.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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It is a matter of concern that he comes before the House and some Members are absent.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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We asked for a debate yesterday on the deployment of Garda resources. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should come to the House to show he is not afraid to be held accountable for his stewardship in this area.

Tom Morrissey (Progressive Democrats)
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Now that we have received a final decision from the courts on the management of the lease for Campus Stadium Ireland's National Aquatic Centre, I ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to come before the House to inform us of his long-term plans for the management of the centre. Does he intend to keep responsibility for the management of the centre within Campus Stadium Ireland? What lessons have been learned from the saga and what are the future plans for the balance of the 500 acres with regard to sporting and related activities on the site? This has been the subject of public discussion for five or six years and it is time to bring it to a conclusion.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Can the Leader inform the House or find out when the report of the Barr tribunal will be published? The tribunal was established in 2002 to investigate the circumstances surrounding the death of John Carthy at Abbeylara, County Longford. I understand that it was signed off on in early 2005 and we were informed the report would be before the House by 1 November 2005. Why is there a delay? Could the Leader determine when the report will be before the Houses of the Oireachtas? The circumstances surrounding John Carthy's death were tragic and approximately 169 witnesses were interviewed regarding the case. There is public concern about the issue. Six years have passed and we should have the report as soon as possible.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I will investigate the matter.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I support the call for a debate on rail transport. Freight depots across the country are being downgraded, which happened in my town of Longford and elsewhere in the midlands. As other Senators said, a proper rail infrastructure would take many heavy goods vehicles off our roads.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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We are not debating the matter today.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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We should have a debate on the issue and money should be invested in our rail freight services.

Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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I join with other Senators in condemning the decision by Guinness to transport kegs by road as it is a retrograde step. Given that we are pushing for the western rail corridor and other developments, we should press for further development of the freight service. As Senator O'Toole said, obstacles have been placed in the way of all rail developments. People even had to fight tooth and nail for the western rail corridor. But for the presence of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, in the Cabinet, the corridor would never have been sanctioned. I would like to see the timetable for the mid-stage to Claremorris brought forward from 2014. We should have a debate on this matter. Given that the timber industry is so important in the north west and there are timber mills along that line to Waterford, the industry would avail of the freight service. I hope this sector will be examined in conjunction with other goods such as coal, cement and Guinness.

David Norris (Independent)
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I support my various colleagues from different sides of the House who praised RTE. We should recognise how lucky we are to have such an excellent and independent public service broadcasting service, as many other countries do not. Would to God that the United States had an independent broadcasting service like RTE to examine current matters under discussion there.

It is highly unusual, particularly for an intellectually combative Minister such as Deputy McDowell, to throw down a gauntlet so publicly but, when it is taken up, refuse to meet the challenge.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

David Norris (Independent)
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It is intriguing and unusual.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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He did not do that.

David Norris (Independent)
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Perhaps it is bullying. Perhaps this has led to a significant increase in the representation of the Labour Party in the Dáil, which I had not noticed. Senator Ryan said that it is the second largest party in the House.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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He did.

David Norris (Independent)
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I congratulate him and am sorry I missed that remarkable political event.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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It was a Freudian slip. Wishful thinking.

David Norris (Independent)
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Even the fact that the Criminal Justice Bill was introduced in 2004 is instructive as this is 2006. The situation is paralleled by the Disability Bill 2001, which was withdrawn, in that a Bill that was initially 34 pages long has had 340 pages of amendments added to it. The Bill is dwarfed by amendments that constitute ten times its bulk, which clearly suggests that it should be withdrawn and re-presented in an appropriate form. It is daft to have a Bill that is one tenth the size of the Government's amendments before this reviewing Chamber gets into operation.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

David Norris (Independent)
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The Minister has added issues such as ASBOs, gun control and so on, which should perhaps be matters for separate legislation. If one has a Criminal Justice Bill 2004, it becomes less relevant by 2006. There is a gross disproportion. I ask that the Bill be withdrawn and properly presented to the House in a form that is appropriate to the parliamentary process.

Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the decision of the Medical Council to refer medical practitioners to its fitness to practise committee. This matter arises from Judge Maureen Harding Clark's report and more than six medical consultants and practitioners will be investigated by the committee. However, unless prima facie evidence is found by the committee, this does not mean a case will or can be taken against the people involved.

I look forward to the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children attending the House in the near future with new legislation to amend the Medical Practitioners Act 1978. As we heard from the president of the Medical Council this morning, the council is carrying out its work with one hand tied behind its back. The Act is 28 years old and so antiquated that it does not represent modern medicine and events taking place therein. Will the Leader keep an eye on that new legislation and try to bring it before the House as soon as possible?

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I join with Senator O'Toole and other Members regarding the amount of freight being diverted from rail to road, as it is a matter of concern. I worked in the shipping and transport business for a number of years. While liner trains once went from Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Sligo and Belfast to Waterford Port nightly, practically none does now. CIE does not seem to be making an effort to keep that market. Its rates are not competitive and it is driving more trucks onto our roads, which congests traffic everywhere. I agree with Senator Mansergh that there must be a subsidy and that Irish Rail must put its interest back into freight, as the interest is not currently there.

Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senators' comments on the transfer of Guinness freight from rail to road and call for a debate on the matter. I also support Senator Henry on the lone-parent issue, which arose during yesterday's discussion on the Social Welfare Law Reform and Pensions Bill 2006. A recently published report on the matter called for a detailed discussion and statements on the new policy, structures and entitlements. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to attend the House to discuss the report?

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden raised the issue of illegal charitable collectors. I would have thought that the legislation was quite strict in that one must get permits for various areas. We should thank the Garda for ensuring that the legislation is being enforced. I am sorry to learn that Senator Leyden was short-changed on this occasion.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Was I short-changed?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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He was not there.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I did not give him any money and was not ripped off.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Glynn raised the issue of gangs from eastern Europe, about which we are trying to be sensitive and measured. Two months ago, my business was burgled by a gang of eastern Europeans in the middle of the day. We pride ourselves on the Irish welcome and try to treat everybody with the same respect. After examining the camera images a day or two after the event, I believe this matter must be dealt with by the Garda and other relevant authorities sooner rather than later, as people out there are concerned. It is a growing trend and a matter we in this House must raise. We must look for the resources to ensure the trend will be stopped. If what these minorities among newcomers are doing is not nipped in the bud, it could impinge on the rest of the group. We must discuss this matter and ensure it is dealt with. The people who carried out the robbery in my business carried out numerous robberies in County Roscommon, the west and all over the country. The sooner they are stopped, the better. They are giving their fellow countrymen a bad name.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I join in the call for a debate on transport, particularly on road freight. I am not being the devil's advocate when I say we are being unfair to the road haulage industry, which provides so much employment in rural Ireland to farmers who are working part-time. These people would be driven off the land by the policies implemented in agriculture.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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No one attacked the road hauliers.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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It is unfair for Members to pin blame for road accidents on road hauliers who are providing an excellent service.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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No one suggested they were not.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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If we are having a debate on it, I wish to highlight the excellent work they do. It is unfair to suggest there is a rail freight depot in every town in Ireland.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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No one said that.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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What is one to do — cherrypick towns that have depots? Road hauliers provide a good service and I wish their voice to be heard. While I support the call for the debate, it should be an all-inclusive debate rather than one that paints the issue in black and white.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Does Senator Coonan have a vested interest?

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I am not nominated by the road hauliers.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator for the clarification.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes stated that we were at the start of the longest running election campaign but I thought it started a long time ago. It certainly did in my case. It is a very long campaign and I hope we all keep our heads.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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And keep our hair on.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes then referred to RTE, which he described as being bullied. I never found RTE staff to be susceptible to being bullied. They are well able to look after themselves and RTE provides a great service, which is grounded in reality, knowledge and an awareness of the public service remit.

I agree with the Senator's point on the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. All these bodies are impenetrable and one cannot receive a response to any question one puts.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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They stonewall.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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They feel no obligation to reply or to explain decisions. Some state that they have never allowed an appeal. Imagine an appeal board that never allows an appeal. A debate on refugees, the bodies that deal with them and how members of these bodies are elected would be welcome.

I never refused a debate with Senator O'Toole.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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That is true but others did.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Ministers of all persuasions have agreed to contribute to radio shows on the condition that Senator O'Toole is not contributing. I refer not only to Senator O'Toole but am using him as an example of people like him, who bring so much colour to RTE.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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And knowledge and information.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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And substance.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Toole is doing well.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole also raised the matter of freight transport. Senator Mansergh pointed out that freight transport is very expensive and if its provision is to be considered by Government a major subsidy would be required. I recall having this debate with the Department of Finance and others and it could never be justified as those who were sending the goods would not pay increased rates. Nevertheless, the outcome would be fruitful as there would be fewer trucks and fewer dangerous incidents on the road, however one quantifies this in monetary terms.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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And lower levels of greenhouse emissions.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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CIE and the Department of Finance agreed on this matter. Neither wanted freight rail transport and they would have returned to the days of barges on the River Shannon if possible.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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And the canals.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Rail freight transport merits a debate and we will invite the Minister for Transport to the House. I was not aware of the announcement by Guinness, which is retrograde.

Senator Ryan referred to the RTE interview but I do not think Deputy McDowell is running from Deputy Rabbitte. Perhaps the poor dears will have more sleepless nights. It is very sad that they cannot sleep.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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My party leader is sleeping very well.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I advise them to put their heads on the pillow and get on with it.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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That is pillow talk.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator asked for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to attend this House. The voices urging him to attend the House are overwhelming and I am sure he will.

Senator Ryan also claimed the Department of Finance wanted to close down railways and he is quite right. It also wishes to close down CIE. From my time as a novice Cabinet member I remember a proposal that all trains stop at Athlone. It was a daft notion.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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Could one only go from Galway to Athlone?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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One could only travel from Dublin to the bridge of Athlone. Where one went after that was one's own business. Senator Dardis is very frisky today.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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More sleepless nights.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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John Wilson was the Minister for Transport and the proposal was dismissed. The proposal is indicative of the view of the Department of Finance. Senator Ryan also raised the matter of pollution in our waterways.

Senator Leyden called for legislation on charitable collections. The Polish man to whom the Senator referred, Damian, gathered €11,000. He was very industrious.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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There are some very generous people in Roscommon.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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He should be employed as a fundraiser for political parties.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I would not be inclined to condemn him as he was very industrious. The judge said he was in the wrong business and that he should have been out with Damian.

I welcome the visitors to the Gallery.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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From what constituency do the visitors come?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Coghlan called for a clear national policy on rail freight and referred to a report that suggested Irish people are more prone than others to money laundering. He also referred to 20 casinos masquerading as clubs. A loophole exists in the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which the Minister hopes to close.

I concur with Senator Glynn's commendation of the Medical Council. The three experts were only expert at clearing someone's name and not making a proper decision. Senator Glynn also sought a debate on refugees but one that would address the eastern European gangs making people's business and home lives a misery.

I agree with Senator Henry's point on rail freight. She also sought a debate on the proposals of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, which I think could be interesting. The Senator also referred to the elimination of young women's poverty and the step to education and employment. Women are hindered by the lone parent's allowance. We all make the case in the constituencies in which we reside. While the allowance is a refuge, it stops them working as one can only earn so much for so many hours. Many young women have told me that they wish to earn more but the allowance would be stopped if their income increases. We need a debate on this and I applaud the measures taken by the Minister. The co-habitation rule was ridiculous, with people peeping in windows from hedges, watching people going in and out. This has died down in the midlands but in other parts of Ireland it still happens.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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Do people not co-habitate in the midlands?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Mansergh condemned the heavy-handed political approach to RTE. He pointed out that RTE gives an independent public service, and I agree. On the front page of today's edition of The Irish Times, which my colleague showed me, RTE denied it was given an ultimatum by the Minister that he would not appear if Deputy Rabbitte appeared. We must take RTE's word for it. Senator Mansergh spoke about the Limerick to Rosslare line——

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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He was running away. He was afraid of Deputy Rabbitte.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Meara spoke on RTE's important role in our democracy, with which I agree. When somebody asked me what my favourite radio programme was I said it was the news. The person thought it was odd. We get a good news service covering all angles. Senator O'Meara wants the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come here and I hope he will do so. We will tell him it is overwhelming.

Senator Morrissey asked that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism come to the House to debate Campus Stadium Ireland's National Aquatic Centre.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Could we have a forecast?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator Bannon's comments on the Barr tribunal. I have some knowledge of Abbeylara and some of its people. They wished the report would be issued and the matter could be debated. It has been a long time since the report on the sad case of Mr. Carthy of Abbeylara was signed off. I will endeavour to find out what the delay is because in so doing I will find out for myself too. Senator Kitt called for a debate on rail freight and the timber industry in the west and north west, which is important.

Senator Norris rightly praised RTE and wondered why the intellectually combative Minister would not go on the programme if he was not alone, although RTE says that was not the situation. The Senator also mentioned the Criminal Justice Bill and I agree with his comments. Yesterday alone 180 new amendments were proposed to the Bill. It reminds me of a medical Bill.

Senator Feeney approves of the decision by the Medical Council. She said the Medical Practitioners Act must be changed and she hopes the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, will soon do so.

Senator Cummins, with his experience of dealing with freight into Waterford Port, is concerned about freight being diverted from rail to road. He correctly stated that CIE's rates are not competitive and that is why we spoke of a ring-fenced subsidy for rail. I remember proposing this, although it did not find favour.

Senator Ormonde spoke about the Guinness decision to transfer its freight business from rail to road. The Senator also called for a debate on lone parents, and I agree with her. This issue encompasses education, as lone parents can further their qualifications. I am sorry to hear what a gang from eastern Europe did to Senator Feighan's shop and the serious situation that exists. We heard a stout defence of the Irish Road Haulage Association by Senator Coonan. Nobody criticised road hauliers.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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They are blamed for all road accidents.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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There was no such suggestion.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Nobody I know said a word about that. If Senator Coonan wants to pose as their saviour that is fine but he need not blame us for putting the opposite case because we said nothing about them.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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Exactly.

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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They all wanted to put them out of business.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I recognise that SenatorCoonan's nominating body was the Irish Road Haulage Association. Was it not?

Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I was nominated by my party on the cultural and educational panel.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Very good.