Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Motor Vehicle (Duties and Licences) Bill 2003 – Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 5 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Senators may share time; No. 2, Protection of the Environment Bill 2003 – Report and Final Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 1 at 5 p.m. and conclude not later than 6.30 p.m.; and, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, No. 3, Employment Permits Bill 2003 – Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 2 at 6.30 p.m. and conclude not later than 8.30 p.m.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed that the Minister reply on No. 1?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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At 4.45 p.m.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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We are not opposing the Order of Business as we support the programme of work the Government has set out for today. Will the Leader tell us when she will provide time for a debate on Iraq? There have been countless calls from all sides of the House since the debate that took place three weeks ago. Will she make an hour or two available at some stage this week? It is not imperative that a Minister be in the House to hear the debate but there are many issues that need to be discussed. My party has today brought forward in the other House a substantive motion which I hope the Government will support, that Ireland take a leading role in relation to the humanitarian relief now so urgently required in Iraq, given the scale of the conflict taking place. I ask the Leader to make time available this week for a debate on this important issue.

As the Leader is aware, thousands of our schoolchildren and their parents have protested on the streets today about the crisis in the Government's plans to refurbish and extend school buildings. More than 700 primary schools up and down the country are awaiting important work on their school premises. Will the Leader provide time over the next week or so for a debate on the matter? It is wrong that students, parents, managers, teachers and principals should have to take to the streets in order to get the point across that buildings of Third World standard are not acceptable in this day and age. The Leader will have sympathy towards their cause, as she suffered because of broken promises from the Government in her constituency before the last general election, as I did. Lies were told by candidates during the election campaign and they are now coming home to roost.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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There is a lot of anger on the streets. People were promised school buildings and refurbishments. This was guaranteed to them. The general election is over and now, seven months later, it is all up in the air. I ask for a debate on the matter.

I concur with the comments made yesterday by Senator Minihan who quite bravely pointed out that we could not take part in the first deployment of the EU rapid reaction force in Macedonia because of a difficulty that had emerged. I am seeking a debate on neutrality which is long overdue. There are many opinions on the issue but the Seanad is where the debate should take place.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I concur with Senator Brian Hayes's comments in support of what my colleague, Senator Norris, has been saying for the last two weeks: we must have a continuing debate on the conflict in Iraq. There is an appalling picture in today's world newspapers showing the reburial of 600 of the 10,000 victims of the massacre in Srebrenica. It is only eight years since it happened but it is outstanding as one of the most remarkable incidences of neglect on the part of all of us. We European politicians who were in office at the time stood idly by. What is happening in Iraq is the slaughter of innocent people which we will regret in the near future. We will wonder about how it happened and ask for explanations.

We need to discuss our role in the context of what is happening in Iraq. I have asked time and again for a debate on neutrality. People were appalled and aghast at the fact that nothing was done in Srebrenica. They were also aghast that nothing was done about Kosovo. Although that is different from the Iraq issue, we need to give a political lead on these issues, if not any other kind of lead. We need to have a thought out position. A debate on Iraq which can focus on what is happening there would be extraordinarily useful, if only to allow Members of this House to articulate their views. It would be appalling to stand by without at least formulating a position.

The journalists of the world have let us down on this issue – embedded journalists, biased journalists, and television stations on which we can no longer depend for fair news.

David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I compliment the Irish media as being quite superb. RTE and The Irish Times have been particularly outstanding in their unbiased commentary. We need a fair view and it would be very useful if European politicians, including ourselves, decided to go on a delegation to Iraq to see what is happening there.

David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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We could report on what we see happening there and tell the truth as we see it, whether we agree or disagree. There are Irish doctors, nurses and religious there and there are Irish troops in that area. There are all sorts of people there and I do not see why we should not be prepared to take a stand, if only to state what we see. We are not getting the truth in the news and it is impossible to know what is going on. I hesitate to make any judgment on the basis of what I see on television.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I support the call for an urgent debate on the war in Iraq. One of the most worrying aspects is whether we really know what is going on and whether we can trust the information coming back to us. In that regard the work of the journalists from RTE and The Irish Times in particular should be commended.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The Small Firms Association blamed the workers.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I support the call by Senator Brian Hayes for a debate on why so many schools' boards of management, parents and children were lied to, misled and told untruths in the days before the election.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Correct.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I have written evidence relating to a particular school in my constituency where that happened.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Castlepollard.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That is going ahead.

Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I would be very happy to read that into the record and will probably do so in the very near future. It is a scandal of huge proportions and will certainly come back to haunt the Government because people are rightly quite angry. They were used, abused, misused and lied to.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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It is important that all sides of the House agree to keep the situation in Iraq under review and that we discuss it openly. The House has a good tradition of bringing a balanced and informed view to bear on all matters of this nature. Although I made this point last week and it is a cliché, truth is the first casualty of war. This is clear in this case. We have reached the point where we wonder on whom we can rely to give us the truth in the news. From that point of view we are fortunate in having distinguished Irish correspondents out there. It is also unfortunate that the dissenting views of distinguished news-gatherers should cause them to resign or be fired from their jobs because they bring a different perspective to bear.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Yes.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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That is not to comment on the legitimacy of any perspective, but people have the right to report in the way they think is correct and professional.

The House should examine the Law Reform Commission's review of the tribunals. They were established by the Oireachtas, so this House has a direct interest. The commission has made proposals as to how the tribunals could be conducted more efficiently and how the legal work on behalf of represented parties could be minimised. There was also a suggestion that certain hearings could be broadcast. There is a pointless nightly charade whereby RTE employs actors to recreate tribunal proceedings from the official record, but it would be easy to install cameras. It is a measure of the law's lack of accountability and transparency that proceedings are not held in full view of the public gaze. I understand the commission also points out that, in certain circumstances, private hearings would lead to more speedy conclusions. The report is a comprehensive document and the House should examine it, given that the Oireachtas establishes tribunals in the first instance.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I have raised the absence of radiotherapy services in the mid-west region on previous occasions and my colleague, Senator Cummins, has also raised the issue in connection with Waterford. Only 16% of Irish cancer patients receive radiotherapy, while in the EU the average is 66%. A march was held on Saturday at which people expressed their concerns about this issue. I have inquired on many occasions when the expert group on radiotherapy services, which first promised its report in February 2001, will present that report so there can be a definitive cancer strategy for the entire country. It is not good enough for the Minister for Health and Children to say, prior to Saturday's march, that he will extend BreastCheck to the entire country without providing information on the timeframe involved, on the likely cost or on the staff resources that will be allocated. It is time this issue was taken seriously.

Francis O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader ask the appropriate Minister to come before the House for a debate on insurance? Motor insurance premia for young drivers and small industrial concerns continue to rise. The latter cannot afford to pay their insurance premia in many cases because of the increase in costs. Members have asked for a debate on this matter on previous occasions and I acknowledge that we had a recent Private Members' debate on it, but it must be addressed as a matter of urgency. We cannot allow the current position to continue to obtain because so many people are suffering.

David Norris (Independent)
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I acknowledge the honourable behaviour of Government Members who, in firm tones, supported calls for a debate on Iraq. Their stance may lead to pressure from within their parties, but I have no doubt that they will be vindicated by history. I join others in calling for such a debate. Will the Leader will give an indication of the particular times at which a series of rolling debates can be taken? I agree with Senator Brian Hayes that a Minister need not be present. On the last occasion the Minister did not come before the House, although the debate was attended by a good Minister of State. We must have such a debate regularly, particularly in view of the issues that have been raised by my colleagues on all sides of the House about journalism.

We are lucky to have people such as Lara Marlowe and Richard Downey. I salute their enormous courage. Even Rupert Murdoch's The Sunday Times carried an extraordinary headline with regard to a massacre of 12 civilians, in which a US soldier said, "Iraqis are sick and we are the chemotherapy." There has been another massacre. Seven women and children were massacred last night and when it was announced, the so-called reporter, dressed in army fatigues, gave his version of what had happened before the investigation had even started. We have seen the sacking of Peter Arnett, a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, and the engagement of a convicted liar, Oliver North, to comment for one of the main stations.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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That is right.

David Norris (Independent)
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Will the Leader try to confirm with the US authorities that they are jamming Al-Jazeera and that American agents are hacking into the Al-Jazeera website in order that people in this country cannot gain access to it? I support Senator O'Toole's remarks about a delegation. I am an SRC, a state registered coward. I do not enjoy danger or the prospect of pain but I will go if this is organised. We should ask members from other European parliaments to go with us. We should make ourselves as safe as possible. I do not wish to be blown up and the more people we have from other parliaments, the safer we will be.

I propose a change to the Order of Business, that we take No. 22. Not only are we allowing Shannon Airport to be used but also, most shamefully, Casement Aerodrome. Think of the ironies. Casement fought for the Putamayo Indians and the people in the Congo against the exploitation of King Leopold and the genocide that occurred there. He would be turning in his grave. I propose that No. 22 be the first item of business today.

Tom Morrissey (Progressive Democrats)
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Will the Leader make time available for a wide ranging discussion on transport in view of the intervention of the Minister for Finance which came to our attention over the weekend? He believes some of the transport projects and proposals coming before Cabinet are unrealistic. There are many projects which require decisions. We are aware of the impending break-up of CIE. Today permission was granted for the construction of pier D but the Minister has told Aer Rianta to defer a final decision. The Luas project is overrunning its budget while work is ongoing on the port tunnel and the upgrading of the M50.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Who is in charge?

Tom Morrissey (Progressive Democrats)
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There are many projects which we need to debate with the Minister. I urge the Leader to make time available for such a debate after the recess.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should have tea with the Leader.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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That is the first evidence of serious cracks in the Government. It is about to crumble and fall and the quicker, the better.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business. Does the Senator have a question?

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Last week a nuclear expert in Brussels stated Sellafield was Europe's top terrorist target. This is of great concern to Irish people. Several constituents contacted me about the issue over the last ten days or so. It is important to have a debate on security at Sellafield. Since the war started it has become Europe's top target. Dublin would be within a 100 mile radius of any consequential fallout at the plant, a matter of serious concern. I demand a debate and that the Minister for Foreign Affairs tell the House what measures have been taken by the British Government to guarantee security at the plant.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader and the leaders of all the groups in the House to agree a motion by the Seanad, that the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority declare a ceasefire for the duration of Holy Week and Easter and that, during this period, intensive efforts be made by all concerned to recommence negotiations in the Middle East to bring about a lasting peace in that troubled land and create—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Do you wish to table a motion?

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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—a permanent state of Palestine and a guaranteed future for the state of Israel.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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If so, a text must be submitted to the Seanad Office.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden has seen the light.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I would ask you, a Chathaoirligh—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I have nothing to do with tabling motions.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the Leader of the House and all the groups to agree to such a motion.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator will have to submit the text of the motion.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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As you know, a Chathaoirligh, the Holy Week suspension falls during that period.

David Norris (Independent)
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It should be on the Order Paper.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The motion should be circulated, a Chathaoirligh.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I join colleagues who have called for a continuing debate on Iraq. It upsets me greatly, as I know it does every Member of the House, to see the television pictures and newspaper photographs of the result of this terror on civilians in Iraq. The pictures show young children and their parents with distraught looks on their faces and terror in their eyes. It upsets me greatly that this war is continuing and no doubt will continue longer.

I must also mention a domestic issue, although when I think of how those people are suffering, my heart is not in it. The issue concerns the exorbitant cost of keeping a prisoner in custody compared to the costs in Scotland, England and Wales. This matter needs to be addressed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. These costs have risen by more than 38% in the five year period to 2001. I am asking the Leader of the House to raise this matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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Today, the first ever peacekeeping operation led by the European Union commences in Macedonia. Unfortunately, Ireland is not taking part, even though I think 99% of the Irish people would say that we should. The reason we are not involved is the triple-lock mechanism whereby one country, the People's Republic of China, has vetoed a UN mandate, yet we have unanimous EU support for the mission. This poses serious foreign policy questions for us vis-à-vis our EU colleagues. We have become tied up in legal and political loopholes from which we need to extract ourselves. I would urge the Leader to arrange a debate on this serious issue.

I support the request by previous speakers for a rolling debate on Iraq if for no other reason than to strike a balance in the comments that are being made in the House. Finally, I wish to state that there are no cracks on this side of the House.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It is quicksand.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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Settlement cracks are good and do not threaten the infrastructure, while earthquakes such as those felt by Fine Gael after the last election are very hard to recover from.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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I formally second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Norris. While enough has been said about the horror going on in Iraq, we deserve an explanation of the things that are being done in our name. It would be appropriate for the Minister for Foreign Affairs to attend the House weekly, not only to explain the Government's position but also to tell us what the Government thinks is happening because nobody else seems to know. It might be enlightening for Members of the House to get an update on what is actually happening on the ground. I presume the Government's sources are better than our own and, indeed, better than most of the journalists' out there who have only a limited perspective.

In the past, a Chathaoirligh, you very kindly allowed Senator White time to make a statement on her visit to Colombia. Perhaps I could ask your permission for her to give an explanation for her attendance at the Sinn Féin Ard-Fheis.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Attendance by anyone at an Ard-Fheis does not arise on the Order of Business.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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I do not wish to introduce a divisive element into the coalition without cracks. I think it may throw some light on that particular issue, however.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I call on Senator Mansergh.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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Senator Mansergh may be able to help Senator White out of her difficulties.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I am ruling Senator Ross out of order and I am calling Senator Mansergh.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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Maybe you could give her that permission, a Chathaoirligh, or she could do it on the Order of Business.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I have attended as an observer two Sinn Féin Ard-Fheiseanna.

David Norris (Independent)
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The Senator is used to that company.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I have ruled on this matter and do not want to repeat my ruling.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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The Northern peace process is of some value.

David Norris (Independent)
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The Senator is entirely responsible for it, as we all know.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Finucane in wanting to focus on the cancer strategy. Early treatment is absolutely vital. I have seen things during the years about which I am not happy.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I remind Members that only four minutes remain. I will call those who offered in the order in which they indicated they wished to speak. Therefore, some Members may be disappointed. I call Senator Coghlan and ask him to be brief to facilitate other Members.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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As ever, I will be brief. I support the call by Senator Dardis for an examination regarding the Law Reform Commission's publication on tribunals and how they might become more cost efficient. As we are all aware, the key question to be resolved is the extent to which we would limit the entitlement to constitutional justice of the citizen and be consistent with fair procedures. I am delighted to welcome the document on which it would be useful if the Leader of the House could arrange a debate in this House. Fair views would be expressed. I am delighted that the Law Reform Commission is organising a seminar on the subject and has promised a final report in due course.

John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the tribunals. There is disquiet among the public at the amount of time spent dealing with them and their cost.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Who brought them about?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. Let Senator Hanafin proceed without interruption.

John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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Is there a more cost effective way of dealing with them because we certainly need investigations into the areas concerned? An unusual situation arose in March where due to the weight of numbers of barristers – not due to the weight of their arguments—

David Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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—each on €2,000 a day, crowding into some offices in town, the air conditioning has to be turned on. The cost to the State of the tribunals is enormous.

I also suggest to the Leader that we should have a debate on the Gulf War during which she should restate the position she stated previously, that this House is in favour of peace, that divergent views can remain in the search for peace and that Members on this side of the House also seek peace.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Leader to arrange a debate on the North when she considers it appropriate. I have been actively involved with all sides of the community in Northern Ireland since 1993 when I was elected to the national executive of Fianna Fáil. Listening to and dialogue with both sides of the community are critical until peace has been consolidated and secured. I would like Senator Ross to know that there were also 29 representatives of the diplomatic corps there.

(Interruptions).

Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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I support calls for a debate on Iraq. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs has sent a delegation but a larger delegation, involving other European countries, would be very useful. I would be glad to go on a delegation to Iraq—

David Norris (Independent)
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Good man.

Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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—to see if we can get resolution on this issue.

At the weekend the newspapers published the names of people with bogus non-resident accounts but there was no mention of the banks, in this country and elsewhere, which facilitated those accounts.

Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
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And encouraged them.

Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader ask the Minister for Finance what action will be taken against those banks which facilitated and encouraged such accounts? They seem to be getting away scot free.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I seek an urgent debate on the Aer Rianta proposal to build a new pier at Dublin Airport when there may be a second terminal. I am aware the Leader is a distinguished former Minister with responsibility for this area. A debate on Mr. Michael O'Leary's comments last week to the Joint Committee on Transport and the remarks of Mr. Noel O'Hanlon, chairman of Aer Rianta, would be beneficial. It seems ludicrous to build a pier which may be demolished soon afterwards if the second terminal goes ahead and to proceed without a proper debate on the matter.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes sought a debate on Iraq but said the presence of a Minister was not imperative. However, if we have such a debate it would be important to have a Minister present or else we would end up snarling at each other. I tried to organise such a debate last week and will try again this week. There might be an opportunity tomorrow as one of the scheduled debates may not go on as long as anticipated. I will revert to the party leaders before then.

Senator Brian Hayes also wants a debate on school refurbishment, but the Minister for Education and Science has issued a comprehensive book outlining where each school stands in that regard. Harking back to the last election is fine if the Senator wants to make a political point, but that will not help us to help the schools. It is more important to concentrate on what has been laid out by the Minister. Senator Hayes praised Senator Minihan's point on Macedonia and a debate on neutrality might be useful.

Senator O'Toole also sought a debate on Iraq and suggested an all-party delegation should travel to that country. Many Members put forward their names in an act of great courage. I will make inquiries but it is a war zone and I understand the Department of Foreign Affairs will not issue travel permits.

Senator O'Meara also mentioned the war in Iraq and in particular the fact that we cannot get the right story. That is the most appalling aspect of this conflict. If one turns on one station a certain event is highlighted but on another station that event is not even mentioned. If journalists are embedded on one side, to use that daft term, then they are clearly on that side and embedded journalists seem to have forsworn or given up their integrity. Senator O'Meara called for a debate on the economy and referred to what the Small Firms Association said about the need for jobs. That organisation is itself involved in job creation, as we were reminded by another speaker. Such a debate would be helpful.

Senator Dardis mentioned a dissenting journalist in Iraq being removed from centre stage. He also referred to the Law Reform Commission and a review of tribunals. Bearing in mind that the Dáil and Seanad set them up, we should be sufficiently emboldened to seek a debate.

Senator Finucane raised the issue of radiotherapy services and asked when the report of the expert group on radiotherapy, appointed by the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, or his predecessor, would be published. We are all pleased the BreastCheck programme is to be extended countrywide as we all know people, whether in our extended families or in our circle of friends, who are suffering from cancer. I welcome the Minister's decision to extend the programme.

David Norris (Independent)
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Getting things on the rails is the problem here.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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A debate on transport would be useful. There should be no surprise about the actions of the Department of Finance, whose job has always been to say "No" to Ministers whose job is to say "Please". Although wires often get crossed in the process, both Ministers in question know the score.

Senator Bannon raised Sellafield, an issue on which several of his constituents have approached him, and noted it is the top target of terrorists. I am sure he is correct. Senator Leyden called for a motion on Israel and Palestine. It would be useful if he were to circulate the text of a motion and place it on the Order Paper.

Senator Terry raised the war in Iraq, in particular the suffering of the children there. She also raised the cost of keeping prisoners in custody. This issue could be addressed when the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, comes to the House on Thursday.

Senator Minihan raised the absurdity of the triple-lock mechanism which hinders us from taking part in the European Union mission in Macedonia and stated most people here favour participation in peacekeeping missions of this kind.

Senator Ross raised the war in Iraq and another matter which I do not propose to discuss as the Cathaoirleach has ruled it out of order.

David Norris (Independent)
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We all know it is definitely out of order.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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It has never stopped the Leader before.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. Allow the Leader to speak without interruption.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Mansergh agreed with Senator Finucane's call for early treatment of cancer. I may not speak on the second matter he raised.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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He who shall be nameless.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Now he has changed his mind and wants a second terminal, but that is if his company gets it.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris proposed an amendment to the Order of Business. Is the Senator pressing the amendment?

David Norris (Independent)
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In view of the Leader's commitment that we will have a debate this week—

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise, Senator, I said I would endeavour to do so. I have no way of knowing if there will be a debate this week, but I will endeavour to seek one.

David Norris (Independent)
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In that light, we will look at the matter again tomorrow. Without any intention of undermining the Leader's position, I will have to put it to a vote tomorrow if we do not get a debate.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator.