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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Business of Joint Committee (9 Oct 2024)

Seán Crowe: Apologies have been received from Senators Black and Hoey. The minutes of the committee's meetings of 24 and 25 September and 2 October have been circulated to members for consideration. Are they agreed? Agreed.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

Seán Crowe: The purpose of today's meeting is to consider issues relating to the development of the proposed national children's hospital with the Minister for Health. This follows the committee's recent meeting with representatives of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. I am pleased to welcome the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly. The Minister is accompanied by Mr. Derek...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

Seán Crowe: Minister, you have about a minute and a half to respond.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: Members of the board were in before us last June and again last week, updating us on progress, or rather the lack of progress, in completing the children's hospital. I want to put on the record what they said to us last week, which I assume the Minister accepts. They said that in the last four years the main contractor, BAM, has shifted its completion date 14 times. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: They also said that in the last 12 months alone, BAM has shifted its substantial completion date four times, pushing it out by a total of eight months. Does the Minister agree with that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: They also said that in 2019 BAM committed to 1,700 so-called "productive operatives" - I am presuming they were talking about feet on the ground or human resources - to complete the project. However, on average since 2022, there have been about 774 productive operatives on site and the highest or peak that it reached was 1,260. Essentially, as the Minister just said in simple terms, BAM is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: They also said that since September 2023, BAM has, on average, achieved 64% of its planned progress. In fact, when they were before the Oireachtas committee last year, they said it was 67% so what they were telling us last week was pretty much the same information. They also told us that of the 3,128 rooms which BAM has submitted as complete to its standard, none were completed to the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: Okay but it was slightly less than €500 million. The Minister was the Minister for Health during all of that so when he paints the picture of four years, of 14 completion dates that have come and gone, four times over the last 12 months where BAM has missed its completion date, not providing the human resources to get the project done, no room of standard that is complete, and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: So it was in the last week. I do not need the exact date.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: Okay, this was a number of weeks ago.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: When the Minister met them did he put it to them that they had missed their completion date 14 times, and four times in the last 12 months?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: Did they accept that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: Did the Minister put it to them that they committed to 1,700 productive operatives but, according to the board, that they only provided, on average, 774? Essentially, the board and the Minister have been telling us that BAM is not committing the resources and this is why the completion dates have been missed. Did BAM accept, when the Minister met them last week, that it was the case they...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: But why not? The Minister went to great lengths to write to his Cabinet colleagues. I am not sure what the value was of doing that but the Minister sent a letter to his Cabinet colleagues, and while the Minister may not have used this language it was reported by the media as BAM holding the country to ransom. Those were the headlines coming out. The Minister did meet with the parent...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: The second figure we have, again according to the board, was that since last September 2023 BAM has on average achieved 64% of its plan. Did the Minister put this to the parent company?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: I accept that, but I am also hearing from the Minister that they certainly were not agreeing with what the board was saying about BAM not fully resourcing the project. If BAM are not even prepared to accept the facts the board has presented to us, then how can I, the Minister, or anybody else on this committee have any confidence in what they are now telling us, which is that they will still...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: Perhaps I could just come back in. This project strikes to the heart of the credibility of the State in relation to how it funds and delivers big projects. There have been acres of coverage on this children's hospital and all of its failures. My focus is on getting the hospital built. I want it built for children. I publicly called on the contractor to do what is right and resource the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: It told us that 16 months ago.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

Seán Crowe: The Deputy should hold on and wait his turn.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Children’s Hospital: Discussion (9 Oct 2024)

David Cullinane: I held on for a long time.