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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: I apologise for joining the meeting late. I could not join earlier because I had responsibilities in the Dáil, but I was present for the entire session last week. My first questions are for Mr. Rafferty and Mr. Wickham. Could I ask them if they watched the entirety of last week's proceedings? Did they watch them back or get a chance to review them?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: So Mr. Rafferty is aware of the testimony given by the representatives from Engineers Ireland at last week's meeting.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: Did it trouble him?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: It did not trouble Mr. Rafferty.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: To clarify, the evidence from last week that Mr. Rafferty watched and then reviewed concerned him.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: To clarify, is Mr. Rafferty referring to Engineers Ireland?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: Engineers Ireland gave evidence to the Oireachtas housing committee last year at a session chaired by Deputy Matthews, who is chairing this meeting. Is Mr. Rafferty aware of the evidence? The date was 13 July 2023. Mr. Rafferty said the representatives of Engineers Ireland have changed their position.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: The witnesses should be aware of the Engineers Ireland submission to the committee on housing last year, some ten months ago. It states: Some engineers are of the opinion that IS465 is not fit for purpose as long as it does not consider sulphide oxidation in Donegal defective blockwork and the standard should be updated based on available research. Updated guidance on acceptable...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: The previous Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, said it was the largest redress scheme in history. Does it concern Mr. Rafferty that the largest redress scheme in the history of the State, which is potentially going to cost multiple billions, is based on desktop studies, not on peer-reviewed science? That is what IS 465 is. Does it concern him that people are being asked to rebuild...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: Before Mr. Rafferty passes to Mr. Wickham, can he tell me what peer-reviewed science IS 465 is based on?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: In Mr Wickham's opinion, why did that panel at that time rule out pyrrhotite or iron sulphate attacks? Why was that ruled out and excluded from IS 465 when evidence of the existence of this deleterious material was known about in the State for a significant period of time before that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: Why was it left out of IS 465?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: Why not in Donegal? I am referring specifically to pyrrhotite, not pyrite.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: Does that concern Mr. Wickham? If we follow the logic of the existing scheme and if we look at the Q and A on the Department website, it assures people that the foundations are fine and that you can rebuild your new home on the existing foundations. This is despite international evidence that the existence of pyrrhotite in foundations means those foundations have to come out. I am thinking...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: For my final question on this subject, I want to talk about 100% redress as referred to in Mr. Rafferty's opening statement. However, keeping with the quandary we are in now, Mr. Wickham would have seen the evidence last week. Engineers Ireland confirmed one set of qualified engineers is working for homeowners. It has recommended option one, full demolition. In a considerable number of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: I could see the discomfort of Mr. Damien Owens, speaking for Engineers Ireland, when I put the scenario to him. You have one set of eminently qualified engineers disagreeing with another set of eminently qualified engineers. One set is not indemnified. One set does not have confidence in IS 465 and is therefore recommending option one. The other set, because it is duty bound and the...

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