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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: Is Deputy Mac Lochlainn sure?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: I thank the Deputy and the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I know I am a visitor here today and not part of this committee, so I really appreciate being let in. I thank all the stakeholders who are here today. This is really helpful, especially at a time when we still have many challenges with the scheme. The more information we can get out there, the better. There were a couple of strong points...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: We can do it. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I appreciate that. I want to raise an issue with Ms Byrne. Has she taken account of the submission from Geological Survey Ireland with regard to the new science? Could Ms Byrne come in on that piece? If it repeats what is being discussed here, we could be looking at a completely different scenario in six months' time. Geological Survey...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: I thank Ms Byrne. If the other members agree, maybe in an addendum to the letter to which I refer we should emphasise more haste and proactivity around the science that needs to be done here. Six months is too long. People are making decisions, doing outer leaf work and using four-inch blocks. Those doing the work are flat out but there are still concerns about the inside blocks and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: It is a scenario where, if they get approved for an outer leaf, they need a loan. In order to get the loan, they need the insurance certification. It is technical, and I know there will be engagement between the subgroup and the BPFI.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: I would be grateful if Ms Murdock could come back to me on that. I know Mr. Horan talked about options 1 to 5, but the real concern is the certificate of completion. I know it is like the Bermuda triangle. One cannot happen without the other. Where are we on an outer leaf with regard to certification? I will leave that there. Insurance Ireland is going to say that it is waiting for...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: That is the crux of it. The outer leaf will meet the standards. I am not an engineer. I have been a labourer and carried a hod, but I am not an engineer. I know a wee bit about building. I do not know a great deal but I do not the outer leaf does not carry any weight. The outer leaf is going to be grand. However, what is the position regarding the inner leaf on a house that has Bison...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: Mr. Owens is right about it being only one piece of evidence, but he is also aware that there is international evidence from America and Canada.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: Professor Paul Dunlop and Dr. Eileen Doherty have done a great deal of research with which Mr. Owens is undoubtedly familiar. Much research has been done. Meanwhile, homeowners have to wait. Just to confirm, did Mr. Owens say that 75% of decisions made under the first scheme by members of his organisation were overturned by the Housing Agency?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: Give me that figure again.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: What did they say?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: Correct, but would Mr. Owens agree that it is still a high figure?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: Are there different parameters for engineers in the Housing Agency compared with freelance engineers who are members of Mr. Owens’s organisation? Are there different ways of measuring?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: I will not ask for the witnesses’ opinions as engineers, since engineering is pretty black and white in terms of what is structurally sound and unsound. The language used at this meeting has been consistent. The words “potentially” and “the future” have been used. If there is potential for the further weakening of a structure, that is, the inside block,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: From the words the witnesses have chosen to use, none of us needs to be convinced about the enormity of this problem.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: That is the difficulty. This meeting is not just about what is going to happen in the next couple of weeks or months; it is about the damage that has been done over the past ten years. I would like us to take two steps today. First, we must ensure that a strong message about where the pressure points lie is sent to the Department. Second, Mr. Hayes made an important intervention about...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: If the Leas-Chathaoirleach could use his wisdom – he has a right bit of that, having heard him at various meetings – expertise and influence to try to bring all of the stakeholders around the table, that would be a good day’s work. I would ask him at a personal level to do that. We all know where we are at with this scheme. There is a confidence issue at the moment,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (1 May 2024)

Joe McHugh: On a point of information, it was done here at one stage in some of our third level institutions, not in universities, but it has not been done for a long time. I agree that it is ridiculous that these samples have to be sent across the water.

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