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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Apologies have been received from Senator Joe O'Reilly. We are dealing with pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the defence (amendment) Bill 2023. We are pleased to meet members of the external oversight body of the Defence Forces to discuss this Bill. I welcome in particular Professor Brian MacCraith, chair, Ms Josephine Feehily, member, Ms Julie Sinnamon, member, Ms...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: I thank Professor MacCraith very much. On behalf of the committee and on my own behalf I would like to mention how grateful we are for the workload being undertaken by them and, indeed, for the role and function of their body. We very much acknowledge that and, in particular, the critical need for the transformation process to proceed along the lines that were originally intended. I...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Would anyone like to comment on Deputy Berry's observations?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Was Ms Feehily keen to come back in?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Why would that belief have been?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Over the years this committee has engaged with the Defence Forces. As the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence we are often struck, sometimes to a remarkable extent, by the lack of engagement and consultation and the absence of listening, as Professor MacCraith mentioned, between the Department of Defence and not only the representative bodies but also rank and file members in a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: I acknowledge the work done by the oversight body and the work it is undertaking to do and, as Professor MacCraith said, the expanded workload it is eagerly looked forward to and is of extreme importance. It is not expected that there will be certainty but there is no certainty regarding the issue of the headquarters but it is crucially important that the headquarters be independent and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Not surprisingly, head 6 states that the external oversight body shall be independent in the performance of its functions subject to the Act. Is Professor MacCraith satisfied as to the independence of the body in the context of what has already been prepared and drafted? I note that under head 8, a provision that there shall be a chair and six, Professor MacCraith has commented on a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Of course, it is too late if the legislation is enacted because, as the witnesses all know, it is about the rigidity of the legislation. It could be over a decade before this is revisited, so in the first instance it is important it strike a proper note. In this regard, all the witnesses' expertise and their collective views are hugely important in the process.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: My final question is on head 26, which is probably the most controversial of the proposals. Ms Feehily speaks rightly about confidence-building and ensuring there is not only confidence and trust. Has the body any view on head 26 with respect to its import, whether or not it might be unduly restrictive and whether it would be considered appropriate? Could head 26(2A)(j) could be the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Okay, and the body does not intend to.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: All right. I thank Professor MacCraith.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Would Professor MacCraith care to comment?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: Deputies Berry and Stanton, I am conscious of the time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: I am not being restrictive in any way, but I am conscious of the fact that perhaps Deputy Berry strayed somewhat off the topic of the general scheme of the defence (amendment) Bill. Having regard to the fact that we have such a distinguished panel with us, however,, I invite a brief comment from its members on the subjects the Deputy raised. I will then return to Deputy Stanton.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: I will allow Deputy Stanton in with his question now, please.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: I call Deputy Stanton.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: That is okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: I think we are moving towards a conclusion. It only remains for me, on behalf of the joint committee, to thank the members of the EOB for joining us in the context of our pre-legislative scrutiny. I thank them not only for their opening statement but for the comprehensive manner in which they dealt with our observations, queries and questions. It is envisaged that we will prepare a report...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

Charles Flanagan: As Deputy Stanton has said, I hope that there will be room for a parliamentary tier, which is important of the context of the differing roles of the Legislature and the Executive. I thank the witnesses for being with us. We wish them continued success in their task. I am also conscious of the existence of the very important IOG under Ms Sinnamon. We had an opportunity to meet with the...

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