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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: It gives an insight into real-time behaviours of businesses when they get that flexibility.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: Not everybody went for it. Not everyone went for the 0%, as Mr. Cody said. Some are paying up. If we look at Irish real estate fund, IREFs, the assets they hold have increased dramatically. In 2022, assets held by IREFs stood at €28.1 billion. It was less than one third of that in 2018. It is a 14% increase on the previous year but a 209% increase on 2019. There has been an...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: When does Mr. Cody think that will be completed?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: This has been going on for a couple of years. I have been raising it with the Minister. I am glad he has finally asked for a formal review. The Revenue Commissioners looks at this all the time. We are not talking about small companies. Earlier, we were talking about SMEs which have tax warehoused. Some warehoused tax is just a couple of hundred euro. We are not talking about that - we...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: We know all about that. That is where we brought in the dividend withholding tax.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: It is our job to ensure that does not happen. Whatever about the funds industry and the vehicles it uses to have no tax liability, when we are talking about IREFs we are talking about property in this State in respect of which we have the primary taxing right. It should never have been the case that they escaped tax. By introducing the dividend withholding tax, we have started to tax them,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: Can Mr. Cody share the report with the committee when he has shared it with the Department?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: Of course.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: The amount of data being provided to us is brilliant. We could always do with more to keep us up late at night.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: I am sure Mr. Cody opens the purse strings and all the rest. I saw a video on TikTok in the past couple of days on how to get money out of a company. Any company director will know about the problem of having money locked in a company that is going well. Under Irish tax law, somebody earning €18,000 does not pay income tax and they may pay USC. The point was made that, instead of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: Is that because a director could do exactly what I said, given the change that has happened?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: I have raised this with the Minister for Finance but no concern has been expressed on the floor of the Dáil. Tax advisers are telling companies to use the loophole. It was created in the Finance Act 2022 and the Society of Chartered Actuaries warned against it. It wrote to the Department of Finance in advance of the change with its recommendations and stated there were some concerns...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. Mr. Cody has raised it with the Department.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: I understand that, and that is always the trick. I put on the record of the Dáil the actual correspondence of the tax advisers to the companies. They cannot believe what has happened. When the loophole came into being in the Finance Bill in 2022, they thought it would be closed down. A year passed and it was still there. I started this conversation because company directors have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: Is there anything that could be done? For example, the guy who owns a corner shop in west Donegal and has approximately €2 million invested in the company knows that if he draws it down, he will have to pay a 40% tax rate. He may be thinking of retiring but his pension pot might be small. He has not put a huge amount of money into his pension and his pension pot may only be at...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: The point is-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: The point is that Revenue, and I will come to this shortly, is able to act very flexibly because much of our legislation is under the control and management of Revenue. We utilised that to the nth degree during the pandemic, when we did not change legislation, rather, we allowed Revenue to do a huge number of changes that were not legislated for-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: They were legislated for afterwards. The point is why Revenue cannot do this now. Can it do this now and we will fix it in legislation with the Finance Bill?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: That is fine. I am moving on from that issue.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Revenue Commissioners: Discussion (15 May 2024)

Pearse Doherty: Yes, I understand that. On the same subject of care and management in respect of excise, do we need a legislative change to defer the August increase in excise?

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