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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: I call our next questioner, Deputy Geoghegan.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: I want to comment on some of the serious failings of the State that a number of members have alluded to. First, I pass on my condolences to the family of the young Ukrainian man who was brutally murdered while in State care in what could be perceived as, and we mentioned this previously in our engagement with Tusla, a questionable usage of unregulated accommodation. There was a gross...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: The issue of migration is a challenge, not just here in Ireland but globally, due to measures outside of our control. Whether it is global warming, war or famine, all of these are leading to an increase in immigration. While we are not here to talk about Government policy, it is safe to say we need to have a fair, efficient and enforced system to be able to deal with the increased pressure....

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: The point I would put to Ms McPhillips is I do not think there is fair, efficient and enforced system and those failures have increased the pressures seen with regard to the efficiencies and the length of time it has taken. I hear what Ms McPhillips is saying about the reduced timelines and also the enforcement. I think there have been serious failures there and, again, I will touch on some...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: Yes. Just the figure without-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: Okay. I am a little bit confused around that and I do not think we have the time to go through it now. The Department would have had an outside agency look at that. Did Deloitte look at that?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: Would it be possible for the Department to furnish this committee with the workings on that?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: We have the chapter from the C and AG. This issue around the VAT has caused serious concerns. Has that sparked a wider look? The sample that the C and AG's office looked at was 20 properties. Has that report from the C and AG sparked a wider investigation to see whether that VAT issue was more expansive than one individual property?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: Okay. There is now that process but is that retrospective? Of the providers, have any other issues there with regard to invoicing come to light on foot of this piece of work from the C and AG's office?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: There are no other major issues such as this. This was a one-off, as far as Mr. Delaney is concerned. The C and AG's chapter 10.60 states that a property that had contracted capacity was identified. It included three rooms that were not being used to accommodate IP applicants based on the single-occupancy daily rate of €169 for that property. I suppose it worked out that IPAS was...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: Was a contract in place?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: How long was it in place for?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: Okay. That figure of €180,000 is what we are looking at. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: Okay. Again, there is the look-back piece. Did that spark a wider look at other properties with regard to the contracted beds available? Have there been any other examples?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: I know what the Department has in place now. I am talking about going back.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: The Department would have been checking that routinely as well.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: When Mr. Delaney says "routinely", is this over the past number of years it would have been checked routinely?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: This was a random sample of 20 properties where this was identified. The process Mr. Delaney spoke to clearly was not working, if one property here was potentially overcharging for three rooms that were not being used by IP to the tune of €180,000. I am asking a specific question. Are there any other cases similar to this in IPAS where the Department of justice has been overcharged...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: Okay. Can we get specific details on that and the cost-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

John Brady: -----and, more importantly, whether that money has been recouped or what mechanism is in place to recoup that money?

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