Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The seventh item selected comes from Deputy Bernard Durkan, who wishes to discuss the urgent need to restore access to Castletown House, Celbridge, County Kildare, which is in State ownership.

We welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell, who is going to deal with this matter. Deputy Durkan has raised this many times previously and he is relentless in his pursuit of the matter.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle, and I also thank for him allowing me to raise it on these many occasions, given the number of other important issues that have been decided on. I welcome the Minister of State to the House to reply to the question.

First, I will speak to the significance of Castletown House historically in respect of the administration of power, as a seat of Parliament and its relevance to this House, being the residence of the speaker of the Irish Parliament once upon a time, and the fact that it has considerable historical and architectural significance and is now moving into the next century with its significance from a tourism point of view, to the extent that the proposals are to bring roughly 1 million people through its gates in any given year. Incidentally, it is entirely appropriate that County Kildare should be well represented in the House at a time when there is discussion of the subject in this House.

I hope that the Minister of State has some good news for us. If he has not good news this evening, well then, we will have to postpone the announcement of the good news but not for long. Time is running out.

I say that because we have discussed this matter repeatedly over a year. The Minister of State’s predecessor set up a working group. The only problem was the group did not work and it still does not work. One should avoid working groups in future and try to set up an action group instead that will produce results.

By now the issue has gone bigger than Castletown House. This is about whether the State has the right to gain access to and egress from its property, the property it owns. The State and the OPW have the right to protect the property for present and future generations and to justify the money that has been correctly spent on the house in recent years to the extent of €25 million. All that will go down the drain unless we can ensure that we have ready access without anyone’s leave or wayleave. That access was provided. The response has been that we have an "alternative access" but we do not. It is nearly 300 years since the house was built and access down the main street in Celbridge was quite adequate at that time but it is no longer a feature. It cannot work. There is no access and now a gate crosses the access that was negotiated by the OPW for obvious reasons, namely that it did not have access and that has operated for the past 15 or 20 years. It worked satisfactorily. It was not an ideal solution. It was an interim solution and like all interim solutions it must be revisited.

I hope the Minister of State has good news. I know he has worked hard to try to bring about a solution that is acceptable and not, I emphasise, an interim solution. I hope it will set a precedent for all other State-owned properties throughout the country. The State has responsibility to protect and preserve for present and future generations the property that it owns for all the purposes we have talked about in the past. If it is not allowed to do that, then there is no sense in spending money on something that it cannot gain access to. It would be a terrible precedent if it were to pass that the public, as part of the State, could not have access to a historical mansion of that nature and importance.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I wish to acknowledge that we have three Deputies representing Kildare in the House: the Ceann Comhairle; Deputy Durkan who, as the Ceann Comhairle said, is relentless in his pursuit of this, and his concern is very genuine; and his constituency colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy James Lawless.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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And the Ceann Comhairle.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I mentioned the Ceann Comhairle.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Good.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When I came into this role a relatively short time ago, I wanted to resolve the issue in Castletown. In doing so, I chaired the meetings in Castletown myself. We have held four meetings and a fifth will take place tomorrow. I intended holding a meeting on Tuesday but unfortunately I was the Minister of State on duty here that day and had to be here much earlier so I deferred the meeting with the patience and acceptance of the members until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

I have a script but I will deal with the main components. Everyone involved wants a genuine resolution for Castletown. It is about access and the long-term objective of the Government to unite all the lands that are related to the Castletown estate. As I said, I have chaired four meetings and there is another tomorrow. Recently, I met with residents on another access point with the chair of the OPW, Mr. John Conlon, which would be temporary for staff access to maintain Castletown House and grounds. We are continuing to engage with these residents on the matter.

I want to put on record that during my tenure as Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW, Lime Avenue will not be a permanent vehicular access route. I have met the residents and everyone in the area and that is a commitment I have given. If there is agreement on the other temporary access point we seek, I want to find a broader solution to this. The working group wants to find a solution to the visitors' car park and it continues to consider all other options, including M4 access. The OPW is also working on a potential parking solution with the Kildare Innovation Campus.

I am following up on requests from people in the working group. As part of the policy to seek to reunite the historic Castletown demesne lands with the house and lands in the care of the State, the OPW has sought on several occasions to purchase the lands in question, including when the lands were offered for sale on the open market. However, despite the very best efforts of the OPW, the State was outbid in the open market process and, ultimately, the lands were acquired by a private purchaser.

Can I have a bit of discretion on time?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister of State does, yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle.

It continues to be the strategic objective of the OPW to reunite all of the lands of the former Castletown estate. The OPW remains open to negotiations with the landowners to purchase all or that part of the subject lands. In line with a commitment I gave to the working group, I met with the owners to discuss this further. Engagement between the OPW and the landowner is ongoing.

The OPW and I are also engaging with the Office of the Attorney General in order to have the most comprehensive and up-to-date legal advices available to it on access routes to the estate and rights of way. This is something Deputy Durkan has emphasised. This engagement is ongoing and I expect to have the advice to hand very shortly. There is intensive work under way on that and I am personally engaged in it.

I believe all stakeholders want to see Castletown House and estate, and the OPW's team, welcoming both visitors and the local community to enjoy all that Castletown has to offer. I can see that there is clearly a broad desire to find a resolution here. The OPW and I are committed to working with all stakeholders to find a resolution in terms of the immediate situation and a long-term solution too which is just as important. I want to see in the short term whether I can get the staff back in to repair the grounds. The Minister of State, Deputy Lawless, has raised the run and the practical matters for people.

The OPW remains committed to endeavouring to acquire lands that formed part of the original estate when they become available in order to reunite the historic demesne. We are also looking to see about access by way of leases. I am very open on this issue. Equally, returning to Deputy Durkan’s core point, access to property owned by the State is a fundamental point. I wish to assure the Deputy that I remain fully committed to working with him and for everyone on the working group and all stakeholders to find a resolution here. I am here today to take this debate and every question he has put down, I am here because I know how important it is. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his indulgence.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No problem.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply. It is not the reply I was expecting. That is not a criticism of the Minister of State but a recognition that there are obstacles along the way somewhere. Regardless of those obstacles, I am convinced that the question has to be established and answered as to whether or not the State has the right to go to and from its own property without anybody’s wayleave or say so. If the State has to get permission from somebody else in order to get to its own property, its own house, and similarly for its assigns, whoever they may be, to travel to and from there to use the carpark that has already been used for the last 15 or 20 years, that underscores that the right of way is not enough. It had to be a signed agreement and it was only temporary. However, if it is made permanent, that would resolve the problem and all the other issues fall into space.

I am concerned that we wander off into a whole lot of other alternatives that might happen. We have to concentrate on the one issue, namely, how in many other places throughout the country is the State prevented from going to and from its own property?

The State owns 230 acres of land and the house, which is a very important historical house.

It is an obscenity that the State and its people should be prevented going to and from that property and utilising the amenity that is there and that is already owned by the State.

I appreciate the work the Minister of State has done and his commitment in respect of this matter, but there is little time left in the life of this Dáil in which to bring it to a satisfactory conclusion. If an interlocutory injunction has to be sought to prove the State's right, so be it. Let it happen soon, however.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The core point the Deputy raised about the legal situation and right of access is the kernel of the work being done by the Attorney General at the moment. Other aspects are being looked at, but that is a key element. I hope to have that. A significant body of work is also under way in the Attorney General's office with regard to the personnel and resources involved because we want to ensure that the advice is comprehensive. I know that is also Deputy Durkan's desire.

It remains a strategic objective of the OPW to reunite all the lands of the former estate where they are available for purchase. Engagement between the OPW and the landowner is ongoing. I thank Deputy Durkan for his commitment, along with that of his constituency colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Lawless, and other Oireachtas Members, councillors and, especially, community groups in the area. I have got to know the community groups. I see their commitment and passion and I value them. It has long been the policy of the OPW to seek to reunite the historic Castletown House estate. That remains the OPW's policy. We are looking at every option in the context of access. What we want is to get to a point where the issue of staff accessing the house is resolved in the interests of both the staff and the local community. At the same time, it is our responsibility to preserve and maintain the important heritage site. We all want to see it reopened. I am conscious of the issues arising and I want to work in a valid way to seek a resolution. I remain committed to working with all stakeholders in order to establish an access route to the Castletown House estate.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank Deputy Durkan and the Ministers of State, Deputies O'Donnell and Lawless, for being here to discuss this matter.