Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Gino Kenny to reply to the debate.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am willing to give Deputy Ó Cuív a few minutes of my time. I have ten minutes and will not use all of it, if he would like three or four minutes.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is not in order but the House agrees so we will allow it.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the speaking time. I accept this is a difficult issue but I believe that once the door is opened, there will be no such thing as limiting access. We have seen that in all jurisdictions where assisted dying has been introduced it has grown and grown. Often what happens in a situation such as this is the proponents propose something very limited at the beginning and it then gets widened.

As somebody who is not, according to Wikipedia, quite the age of the esteemed Acting Chair but who in the older age bracket, I am very concerned about such a suggestion. The older one gets the more one faces the inevitability one will die. There is a danger of moral pressure being put on people over time as this would expand. I have serious reservations. The issue deserves a wide debate. I do not go along with the argument that the view of palliative care doctors, specialists and nurses can be just dismissed as irrelevant. Science has advanced. I believe what the Minister said regarding palliative care and the State has a huge importance here. It is absolutely vital for the State if we are taking a really caring attitude that everyone would have access to very high-quality palliative care. Let us be honest about it: most people cling dearly onto life even when they know they are terminally ill. Most people go to extraordinary lengths to extend their life even though they are suffering quite a bit because it seems to be in their DNA. I have serious reservations about the road we are going on looking around the world at other jurisdictions. That was the point made by Deputy Durkan and I would like to voice my reserved view on that.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Gino Kenny has ten minutes.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I probably will not use all of my time. It was a good debate and a reflection on the report itself. There are different views on this issue. Unfortunately, Deputy Tóibín, who is not present now, conflated the issue of assisted dying and suicide. That is extremely unhelpful in terms of this issue and those who do that do so deliberately.

I want to put on the record that I am not supportive of an expansion where people can avail of assisted dying in any circumstances. Assisted dying should not be available in the context of disability, mental health and age but it should be available in certain circumstances, which are laid out in the report, and that is very reasonable.

Looking at other jurisdictions, this is where those who oppose assisted dying say that once it is legislated for it expands but it has not expanded in Oregon in 30 years. The committee examined the model used Victoria in Australia and all of Australia now has legislated for assisted dying. Three years ago there was a referendum n New Zealand. The people of New Zealand were asked whether they supported legislation around assisted dying, and a clear majority supported assisted dying so that is very important. It is very important in terms of eligibility and who can avail of assisted dying.

There is a ludicrous situation where some people from this country and others have to go to Switzerland if they want to avail of assisted dying. This has happened in numerous cases and in some pretty difficult circumstances where a loved one could not travel with that person because they could be prosecuted. The legislation is very antiquated.

I have campaigned all of my life for assisted living. This is a great concept and this is part of everybody who tries to do the most good for the most people. Assisted living is extremely important but assisted dying is also important and it involves a voluntary decision. That is why it is called voluntary assisted dying This is not a decision that is imposed on anybody. We can never have that. This is not a decision that is taken lightly, by any means. This is a decision that is extremely fundamental and extremely difficult for that person. I say to people who are opposed to assisted dying, in a situation where they have a loved one coming to the end of his or her life, regardless of who they are who is to say to that person that he or she has to live for the next number of months in very difficult circumstances? Who has the right to say to that person that he or she has to go through every single moment of that difficult ending? Nobody. The only person who really has the say is the person in those circumstances and that is why I think assisted dying should be legislated for.

This is a complex debate.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Another Deputy wishes to join the debate.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Yes I know, that is why I will finish early.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will Deputy Kenny pause his contribution for a moment and then conclude after the Deputy Lahart speaks?

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I will conclude in 20 seconds and then will let Deputy Lahart speak. Is that okay?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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This is a complex issue and I hope it is not a divisive issue. I hope it can be legislated for in the next Dáil and I also hope to come back and push this issue.

If I am not lucky enough to get back in, then hopefully somebody else will. However, I really believe that assisted dying will be legislated for in Ireland within the next number of years. It is inevitable that will happen. There is public support for it. I believe that a majority of TDs support this recommendation, which is why I will be putting this to a vote next Wednesday.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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For the public who may be watching, this debate was scheduled for later in the evening but, obviously, business moved much more quickly, and it is concluding now. I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak on it. I will not be supporting any motions on this next week. While I understand why Deputy Kenny is doing that and bringing it forward, because he has very much championed the whole process, there is an awful lot more teasing out to be done. Certainly, the public needs to be involved in a very real way. I certainly supported in committee the idea of a referendum of the people in that regard. It is a pity that it has been pushed because I thought the committee did really good work. I want to pay tribute to the Chair, Deputy Michael Healy-Rae, who chaired it so impartially, fairly and thoroughly, the committee and research staff, the clerk to the committee and all the officials who worked so earnestly, impartially and fairly.

Although I can only speak for myself, I believe everyone who went into the process found it incredibly engaging, challenging and interesting. The witnesses were what I would call very top class, from academics right across to those involved in palliative care, as well as international witnesses who gave us the absolute best of their knowledge and experience in dealing with this topic.

One issue I was keen to ensure happened, which I think it was reflected in the report, was that going into the process, it was too easy to associate the notion of assisted dying with particular conditions. As a committee, we avoided naming conditions, which I think was really important because there are people with conditions who are living their absolutely best lives and the last thing they would think of is the notion of assisted dying. Some of the reports carried even by the mainstream media, including the national media, were to the effect that the committee was recommending to introduce euthanasia almost against people's will. That was how it was presented and it really scared people.

For my part, one of the pieces of evidence that was brought to us was that there is some pain that is beyond the reach of palliative care. That was very clearly demonstrated. I also have huge sympathy for those professionals who spend their lives administering palliative care to people who are in great pain and make their lives incredibly comfortable as they come to the end of their lives. The issues they have could be teased out a little bit more. While Deputy Kenny might be right that there is a majority, I do not know about that. While I think people in an off-the-cuff way may say that yes, they agree with assisted dying, one can then ask them about who administers it and in what way. The issues we discussed at length probably need to be discussed even more. How do we know the person who is making the decision is of sound mind when he or she is making that decision or that he or she is not being influenced unduly by anybody or is not under pressure? We received international evidence supporting that notion from different jurisdictions. How I saw the report and the process was that it was the first time a conversation had been started. A huge number of witnesses appeared before the committee and gave their best in terms of information, knowledge and experience, many openly contradicting each other with factual evidence whereby if one position was stated, another position was then stated.

People out there have emailed some of us who think we are going to introduce a law next Wednesday and want us to either support or oppose it. That is not happening and that needs to be made very clear. I would support a referendum if it came to it but I think we are a long way away from that. Much more conversation is needed in the topic. That is really what I wanted to say. I am very grateful for the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach's forbearance in allowing me in against the protocols. I did not think it was going to come up in the Dáil schedule so early.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. Does Deputy Kenny wish to finish off his interrupted closure?

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have said it all.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Did Deputy Troy wish to make a contribution?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, if the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach does not mind.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We made an exception before, so we have to make another. I know we are not supposed to do that, but here we are. The Deputy might be brief.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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This Dáil is so nearly finished anyway.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach for giving me the opportunity. I thank the Members for their flexibility in allowing me to say a few words. I was at a very sad funeral down the country today of a young woman of 46 who died of cancer. She had two small children. I am just getting an opportunity to come back here today.

As somebody who sat through 96% or 97% of the committee hearings, I want to put on record that I think the committee did much good work. We worked well together and were respectful of one another. We thoroughly examined this proposal. Having sone so much good work from an ethical, legal, constitutional and medical perspective, there was not a unanimous decision at the end of the meeting. While there was a majority report which captured, obviously, the majority, some of us on the committee could personally see the exceptional circumstances in which a person might consider the natural decision of ending his or her own life because the future is so bleak. There are those very minor circumstances where it might be a good thing to do. On balance, having listened to people and experts, particularly experts in palliative care who warned how vulnerable people could be exploited and having looked at the international examples of where assisted suicide or assisted dying was introduced, unfortunately, while it tended to be introduced in very restrictive circumstances, over time, however, those restrictive circumstances were expanded and expanded. I would have a huge concern if we were to go down that channel, although we would introduce it with the best will in the world. Much time went into this in terms of how we can bring in as many protections and restrictions to avoid it being expanded or avoid vulnerable people being exploited and that we would not be able to do that. When we come to the final few weeks or months or whatever it may be in this Dáil, and while the work of that committee has concluded, it will fall to the new Dáil to look at what is a very serious topic when we are talking about life and death. It will form the responsibility of the people who will be elected to the next Dáil to determine where we go in this regard. As somebody who sat through the process for 96% or 97% of all hearings, I would advocate for the exercise of extreme caution. Sometimes, when seeking to make things easier, what we are trying to achieve is not always what we achieve. We need to broach this with caution and look to where it has been introduced already.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. Has Deputy Kenny concluded and is he satisfied?

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Yes.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In that case, that concludes the debate on this issue.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I would like to push for a division for next Wednesday.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In accordance with Standing Order 80(2), the division is postponed until the usual weekly division time next Wednesday.