David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Minister for Health how he will ensure that the new children’s hospital opens as quickly as possible following handover from the contractor; if he will publish the transition plan for the move to the new hospital; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39374/24]

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The saga around the national children's hospital, unfortunately, continues. When the Minister gets to his feet, he might give us some indication from his perspective as to when he believes the handover will happen and when the hospital will open and treat patients. Is he satisfied that the transitional plans are in place to ensure that when the hospital is ready for the handover and is handed over, a proper transition plan is in place, whereby staff can be decanted from the other hospitals quickly and we can get the hospital open and treating patients?

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his question. As we are all aware, the main contractor has now missed its own deadline 14 times. It missed its own deadlines four times this year alone.

Neither the HSE nor the Government has confidence in deadlines that a contractor puts forward when the contractor misses its own deadlines 14 times. Our position and that of the board has been clear, in that the contractor needs to fully resource the project. The board’s view is that the contractor has consistently failed to do so. In my last meeting with the board a few weeks ago, the board’s view was that the contractor had fewer than half the staff on site that were needed. Deputy Cullinane and I go into, as we should, the details around contracts, withheld money and so on, but at a simple level, if any of us paid a builder to build us a wall and the builder put half the number of bricklayers on the job that was agreed, the wall would take longer to build. Much of this issue boils down to that. The contractor has not resourced the project.

I believe it was in March of this year that we were all expecting handover in October or November. The contractor then said it would be in March of next year, then June. The contractor has to fulfil its obligations on this project. A vast amount of commissioning work is being done – I spoke to the chief executive and the chair of the board about the commissioning this morning – to ensure that everything that can be done is done. We need to accelerate the commissioning and move into the hospital before the final completion date. There is commissioning work that could be accelerated.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There is an obvious role for the contractor to resource the contract and I have called on the main contractor to do exactly that. I am interested in the hospital being built as quickly as possible for children. My main focus is on ensuring that we have a world-class, fit-for-purpose children’s hospital that is open and treating patients. The Minister used the example of a wall being built in someone’s house, but a houseowner would not accept all of these missed deadlines and would not just be telling everyone that it was terrible. The owner would be taking action and using whatever levers were available to them.

In everything I have heard from the Government, there has been a dodging of responsibility on its side. There is plenty of blame to go around, including for the contractor, but cheques are still being written. The contract does not contain the necessary levers to hold the contractor to account. The Government’s strategy is not to give the contractor any more money, and I see the wisdom in that, but that is not progressing the hospital. I asked the Minister a question today, so when he speaks again, he might answer it. All these years later, he is still not in a position to tell me, children or the people of Ireland when the hospital will be completed, handed over, open and treating children. He might prove me wrong when he takes to his feet, but I have not heard that date from him or anyone else in government.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy raised a few points. Let me be clear, in that I wanted the State to take ownership of the hospital around now. The contractor told us it would be in October or November, but it has missed its deadline. It has under-resourced the project repeatedly and failed to meet its deadline.

I agree with the Deputy about how the hospital development board, which is acting on our behalf, must use all of the levers available to it in the contract. Having met the board and been in regular communication with its chair, I am convinced, and the board is clear, that it is using all of the levers available to it under the contract. That is what makes this situation deeply frustrating.

I still expect the State to take ownership of the hospital next year. We should have accelerated commissioning and the hospital open next year. What is happening is deeply frustrating. As I wrote to the Taoiseach, and as the board told me when I met it, the board’s view is that the contractor is holding the Irish taxpayer and, arguably, the children of Ireland to ransom.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is no good to the people of the State who are still funding the hospital or to the children who need it. Does the Minister accept that the levers for holding the contractor to account do not exist? All the levers he has mentioned have been used before and clearly do not work. Does he accept that that has to do with flaws in the contract? Despite all of the tough talk and Ministers sticking their chests out and saying they will take on the contractor, we are no closer to the hospital being built than we were this time last year. I have had similar exchanges with the Minister in this Chamber and we have had debates at the Oireachtas health committee. No one can tell us when the hospital will be built and open. All the while, we have a blame game, with the contractor blaming the board and the board blaming the contractor. We go around in circles and we make no progress. There has to be political accountability as well as a holding of the contractor to account. For all the Minister’s talk of levers, brakes and other measures to put pressure on the contractor, they are not working. Is the problem that they do not actually exist and that the State is powerless to hold the contractor to account, all the while writing cheques even though children are waiting for the hospital to be built?

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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At this point, it would be a futile exercise to second-guess the contract. The contract is what the board has and we must manage the project within it. The board is using the contract to the fullest extent possible.

I acknowledge the Deputy’s role in this. He must, and should, put pressure on us. I would were I in his chair, and did. There is value to us speaking with one voice at least in terms of shining a light where it must go, namely, on the contract.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We have done that.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I just acknowledged that. I will cite an example that the Deputy’s colleague, Deputy Doherty, raised with me at the health committee. I believe Deputy Cullinane might have been present for it. It had to do with grilles. Clearly, he had been given information. I believe he was acting in good faith. He made an impassioned contribution and said that this was a design flaw and, therefore, the fault of the board, designers or whoever it might have been in the State. We can all guess where that information may have come from. It only served one party. According to the information on which Deputy Doherty made his claims in good faith, this was going to cost-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The claims were right. A remedy was found that produced cuts.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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-----approximately €24 million and delay the project by months.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They were correct.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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That is clearly what he had been told and he brought it-----

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We must move on, please.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I will finish on this, as it is important. Not only were the claims not correct-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They were correct.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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-----but the total cost was not €24 million. It was €200,000-----

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is focusing on the cost. The claims about the grilles were correct.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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-----and the board got a third party to complete the work in a matter of weeks. We should be united in shining a light on this.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There is still not a single room in the hospital built, so the Minister has much larger problems than grilles.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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By the way, the main contractor still sent an invoice to the board for the €24 million.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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And still not a single room has been completed.