Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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6. To ask the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth if he will examine opportunities to use the social enterprise model when it comes to the roll-out of additional childcare facilities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [38971/24]

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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This is to ask the Minister about the possibility of examining opportunities to use the social enterprise model. This is something we had put forward in our childcare plan and which should be looked at as a way to quickly build the capacity that is badly needed in the childcare sector.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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As outlined in the national social enterprise policy, Trading for Impact, social enterprises are enterprises whose objective is to achieve a social or environmental impact, rather than maximising profit for its owners or shareholders. That policy response recognises that the early learning and childcare sector includes many social enterprises. Indeed, there are more social enterprises in early learning and childcare than in any other sector.

Clearly, the social enterprise model is already a feature of the sector.

The expert group report on the sector's funding model, Partnership for the Public Good, looked at social enterprises and acknowledged the values-based model underpinning them. Encouraging such values, as well as prioritising the public good dimension of early learning and childcare, underpins the whole approach to the new funding model. I fully agree we should support and encourage such values in the sector. I am well aware that many providers are motivated by a desire to educate, support and work with children rather than by profit and that they reinvest surpluses into their businesses. There are challenges with depending on the social enterprise model, particularly given that such enterprises do not have a distinct legal form. The partnership approach developed under the new funding model, however, is designed to move in this direction and has been very successful. Core funding has supported the public good dimension of the sector by providing additional funding to support quality and sustainability in exchange for improved transparency and a commitment to the fee management system.

In addition, I have taken steps to preserve and expand the community sector, whose approach aligns with that of social enterprise. For example, under the building blocks extension scheme, capital funding will be made available to deliver thousands of additional early learning and childcare places. It will offer funding for large-scale projects to enable existing community services to build new capacity into their current premises by means of physical extension. It will also allow community services to apply to purchase or construct new premises.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I had engaged with Social Enterprise Ireland ahead of Sinn Féin's policy and it had spoken about a pilot of €20,000 that would allow it to do a feasibility study which would identify community centres and community enterprise centres across Ireland. For €20,000, it is not a lot. I think doing that job of work of identifying spaces where childcare could be incorporated would be really worthwhile because when they are in a shared space, it keeps costs down, rent is shared and electricity is shared. It makes a difference, particularly in rural communities where it has not been viable for a private provider to step in. We could look at the social enterprise model in filling those gaps that exist. You are using buildings that are there and that are underused, bringing them back into life and then providing a service in a community where that service otherwise might not exist. Spraoi agus Spórt, Carndonagh, is a really good example of this. It is an award-winning social enterprise model. If the Minister is not aware of it, I ask him to look at it in the context of childcare.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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There is and, I think, will always remain a key place for the community model in the delivery of early-years services, and the social enterprise model is part of that. We have spent much of the morning discussing the issue of capacity. As to where there are shortages of capacity, I come to the following view now, at the end of four years in this role. We recognise that sometimes a private provider does not see the attractiveness of an area for a particular reason. Should we be relying on a social enterprise model, even with additional State supports, to step in, or is the best way to guarantee capacity, particularly in those areas of undersupply, for the State to step in directly? Personally, I am coming to the latter view, that we have done as much as we can with the existing model and brought a lot of improvements but it still has real challenges. That more active role for the State as the focus of the next government, whatever government it is, is probably the best way forward.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Minister to consider looking at that proposal from Social Enterprise Ireland. It is €20,000. It will do the job of work of identifying those buildings where there is existing capacity and where childcare could be brought into those buildings. In some cases they are not used at all. I think that would be a worthwhile job of work and would be a way in which we could build capacity quickly within the sector. The social enterprise model has been proven to work already. For a small amount of money, I think it would be very worthwhile to do that mapping exercise as to where we could get increased capacity quickly, having a look at that and perhaps the Minister engaging with Social Enterprise Ireland himself.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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On the point Deputy Kerrane makes, in his public utterances I perceive that the Minister is very cautious about saying anything overt about the need for a public, State-funded model. We all acknowledge the incremental progress that has been made as regards the supports provided by the State. Where is the Minister's thinking, based on the Taoiseach's comments, around the idea that we align early-years and preschool provision with primary and post-primary education, whereby the State intervenes to pay staff within the system; the providers remain as they are or retain their autonomy, so to speak, but the sector is funded by the State; terms and conditions of employment are robust; there is not this constant attrition of workers within the model as it stands; and the model is formalised in a way that ensures that it becomes robust and part of the education system into the future?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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In response to Deputy Kerrane, I am absolutely happy to look at that proposal. She might make sure it gets to me herself. I cannot commit here and now to making the payment but I will definitely look at it.

In response to Deputy Sherlock, I do not think I have been very cautious. I have set out, from my party's point of view, a view of a step towards legislating for ECCE as a legal right and delivering that through State, public provision. I think I have been clear on that. I-----

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I do not want to cause a row, and I accept that the Minister sets out his party's view, but, with all due respect to him, he is here as the Minister, so what is the Minister's view? With all due respect to him, it is not a matter for me what the Minister's position is as leader of a party. I am asking the question to the Minister of the day about a publicly funded model.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy for informing me of my role; I appreciate his advice.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Can the Minister not separate the two roles?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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The Deputy has taken Deputy Kerrane's time now. I will reply to his question.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I thank the Minister.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I would argue that there is already strong alignment in respect of the curriculum, the aistear and síolta curriculums, which flows through the ECCE process and into junior infants and senior infants. There is already strong integration in respect of the curriculum approach. I think where we agree is on the level of State intervention, which is complete in respect of junior infants but incomplete in respect of the ECCE process. I think we will all have the opportunity to talk more about that in the weeks ahead.