Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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4. To ask the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth if he will fund a physical survey of the estate of the Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork city to locate the possible burial place of the more than 800 unaccounted for children who died in Bessborough or in hospital after being transferred from Bessborough; to outline any plans the Government has for this site; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39321/24]

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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I ask the Minister if he will fund a physical survey of the estate of Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork city to locate the possible burial place of more than 800 children who are unaccounted for and who died in Bessborough or in hospital after being transferred from Bessborough. I ask him to outline plans the Government has for this site and to make a statement on the matter.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy. I am conscious of the hurt felt in particular by the survivors and family members of people who died in Bessborough. One of the most tragic aspects of what happened in that particular mother and baby institution was the uncertainty regarding the burial places of the many children who were resident there and the many children who we know died there and in some linked institutions. The investigation of burial arrangements in mother and baby institutions, including in Bessborough, was an important part of the work of the commission of investigation. In Bessborough, the commission carried out cartographic and landscape assessments of possible unrecorded burial arrangements. It also carried out a site survey and followed up with responses. The commission concluded that it is likely that some of the children who died in Bessborough are buried on the grounds but it was not able to find the physical or documentary evidence. As no evidence of locations was found, the commission did not consider it feasible to excavate the full available site, which now amounts to 60 acres, or the full original site, which would have been over 200 acres. Right now, I am not aware of any detailed proposals for Government funding to undertake a further survey of the Bessborough grounds. Given the scale of the current estate and the wider estate, excavation would have a significant cost and we must recognise that.

My Department provided support to survivors and relatives of former residents of Sean Ross Abbey and a site examination was carried out after they came to us with a specific proposal. I know there have been planning applications for the land in Bessborough, including for what is seen as the potential burial site and for other lands. In September, An Bord Pleanála rejected a planning application and one of the reasons it did so was that the site concerned was the potential location of a burial site on the lands.

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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We do not know the full extent of the infant deaths in Bessborough. The order's records are unreliable and its statements to the commission were nothing short of abject lies in an attempt to scramble away from justice. At least 928 babies died in Bessborough but only 64 graves have been identified. The Department of local government at the time chalked the scale of infant deaths down to "conditions associated with the unfortunate lot of the unmarried mother". Survivors of Bessborough have never received justice from the religious orders that abused them or the State, which facilitated it and turned a blind eye. The very least the State owes survivors is to find the bodies of their children. We need an investigation of the grounds to establish the location of the remains of the babies and to conduct a sensitive excavation and a dignified exhumation of any of the remains. The entire site at Bessborough should be subject to a compulsory purchase order, CPO, and established as a memorial site.

The Minister replied that given the scale of the site, we will not bother or there is no plan to do it. I ask him again to ensure that it occurs.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy. I have had the opportunity to visit the site at Bessborough with a number of survivors and former residents. I know there are differing views on the excavation and reburial of human remains at that site. When we discussed Tuam, there was absolute agreement about the treatment of remains and the State's response. I do not think there is unanimity about the response at Bessborough. That is not to say that the State should not do anything but it is important that when we speak of engaging with survivors, we must recognise that different survivors sometimes have different views as to how the State should respond on a particular site.

I point to the fact that in respect of Sean Ross Abbey, the State supported survivor groups to undertake further investigations. It has happened previously. It is, however, important that we try to seek some degree of consensus among the survivors on our approach to these sites.

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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Sometimes it feels like there is a disconnect in respect of how the Minister speaks about this issue and the lived experience of people. I will give one example. In 1960, 18-year-old Madeleine Walsh was sent to Bessborough. Her baby son, William, fell ill when he was three days old and was taken from her. He died when he was six weeks old. After years of requests for information, she was informed by nuns that he lay in an unmarked grave at Bessborough folly. She visited that spot for years to be near her son and to speak to him until 2019, when the fifth interim report revealed that the nuns had lied. William had actually been buried in an overgrown famine graveyard on Carr's Hill. There seems to be no end to the cruelty that is heaped upon these women by religious orders and the State. At every step, the Department has failed them. So many women and children who were in Bessborough have been excluded from the discriminatory redress scheme. Every woman who was forced to scrub floors, do laundry and clean nappies, day in and day out until her hands were raw, is completely excluded from the work-related payment.

As the Minister said, a planning application was rejected recently because of the known unmarked mass grave of children. There is no reason the State should provide a survey for the excavation of Tuam and not for the other sites. We know that survivors are not a homogenous group but how can the Minister say that one group deserves answers and justice while another does not?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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That is a really difficult question to answer. How do we seek some degree of agreement or alignment among survivors on a site when there are clear differences as to how to proceed?

I will not lie to the Deputy; I do not have the full answer for her today. There are different groups of survivors represented in Tuam but I know from my engagement when I travelled to Tuam and met survivors there, that everyone is unanimous on the need to intervene because of the treatment of the remains of children at that site. That same degree of unanimity does not exist in respect of Bessborough. Particularly before undertaking the scale of intervention that will be undertaken in Tuam, there would have to be some effort to bring together a degree, perhaps not even consensus, but at least of an understanding among everybody in terms of the way.

As the Deputy says, there is a site that some relatives see as a burial ground and that they recognise as the graves of their children. For others, as the Deputy has so correctly identified, there are other family members who have no idea where their loved ones are buried after they died due to the treatment in Bessborough. Creating that degree of consensus is difficult. I do not have all the answers today but on the Bessborough site in particular, because the grave site is unknown, I absolutely recognise there is further work to be done to try to bring about that degree of consensus.

If I could state, with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's indulgence, the special advocate for survivors, Ms Patricia Carey, is now in place. I might talk to her to see if there is any way we can advance that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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You have gone way over time on that.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Apologies.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is okay. I have allowed it given the sensitivity of the topic.