Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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63. To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine his views on whether the nitrates derogation overwhelmingly benefits a wealthier minority of intensive farmers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [38156/24]

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I presume the Minister is aware of the major investigation into the intensive farming lobby published yesterday. The investigation says this lobby is "preventing Ireland from addressing its poor air and water quality and meeting its climate targets". Does the Minister agree that the nitrates derogation overwhelmingly benefits a wealthier minority of intensive farmers and major agrifood industry players? Is this why he is defending a licence to pollute?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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No, I certainly do not agree. If the Deputy had spent a bit more time analysing and assessing this and informing himself of this issue, he would not be making those assertions across the floor of the Dáil. No matter the issue he is addressing, it is always Deputy Murphy's approach to paint life as a competition between oligarchs and the wider population. He is trying to do the same here in respect of agriculture, tying it into his approach to the nitrates derogation. A trip beyond the M50, walking around a few farms, meeting a few farmers and going to the odd mart across the country would certainly help inform his approach and insight into this.

The average size of dairy farm in this country is about 90 cows. We have about 17,000 farmers. The average income for dairy farmers in 2023 was €49,000. Some 40% of our dairy farmers farm in derogation. If the Deputy was to take himself to Cavan and Monaghan, he would find many farmers in derogation there. I am talking about farmers with smaller farms of 50, 60 or 70 cows. If we were not able to maintain our derogation, many of these farms would become unviable and unable to produce a full-time family income. The outcome of the removal of our derogation, which is what the Deputy wants, would inevitably be consolidation and larger farms. Of course, this might feed into his narrative and allow him to stand up and rail against large farmers in future years, if he is still here. That is what his policy and approach of trying to do away with the derogation would actually achieve. It is important.

There are good, valid and scientific reasons as to why we have the derogation. We can grow more crops and grass in this country, utilising more nutrients over the course of the year to grow those plants, than some other countries across Europe can. Those countries are much more arid in nature and do not have the same growing capacity. However, all of that is dependent on us improving our water quality and meeting the nitrates directive, which we and all farmers in derogation are absolutely committed to doing.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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The Minister suggests that I should inform myself and, perhaps for the tenth time, says I should travel outside the M50. For the tenth time, I will tell him that I live outside the M50. People right across this country have a right to have input into how our farming is done and on the impact on our environment. I ask the Minister to inform me. When the cut to the derogation rate was announced last year, he said that 7,000 farmers out of 130,000 family farms avail of it. By his own admission, only 5% of farmers are affected while 95% are unaffected. Despite this, he is going hell for leather to defend the interests of that 5%. Will he tell me what is the average income of those 7,000 farmers? Please inform me so that we can deal with that. We know that two thirds of farms earned less than €20,000 in 2023. If you add the 50,000 farms that are too small to feature in the Teagasc national farm survey, you see that 78% of Irish farms earn less than €20,000. The vast majority of those do not benefit from the derogation. This is a derogation that benefits big farmers and big agribusiness, which I might get to in a supplementary.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Again, Deputy Murphy is bending over backwards to present this in his favoured manner of oligarchs against the rest of the world. As I said to him, we have approximately 17,000 dairy farmers. Among those 17,000, the average number of cows is about 90. Of those 17,000 dairy farmers, about 40% farm in derogation. The average income across those 17,000 was €49,000.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Will the Minister tell me about the 7,000?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I expect it would be the same or very close to it. The average number of cows is 90. It is really important for those farmers, particularly those whose viability and capacity to continue into the future depend on that derogation, that we maintain it. As I have said, we are very confident that we can do that, looking to improve our water quality while supporting those farmers. Any removal of the derogation would not only impact the viability of many of our family farms, it would also significantly impact all of our sectors because it would lead to increased competition for land, resulting in challenges right across the farming sector.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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The Minister did not give me the figures for the average income of the 7,000. That is what I am interested in getting. He suggests that it is some sort of conspiracy theory to say that the economy is run by very wealthy corporations - he used the term "oligarchs" - but it is not; it is the reality. Let us look at who is lobbying to retain the nitrates derogation. Glanbia made €117 million in profit last year and is actively lobbying for it. After meeting with the Taoiseach in May, the CEO of Dairygold said that 60% of its supplier farms are under derogation and that it was “important that we work hand-in-hand with the Government”. Apart from the big farmers, it is the dairy processors and the big agrifood companies that benefit from the derogation because they have invested very significantly in dairy expansion off the back of it and are making record profits. The rest of us are paying the price for that in the water quality in half of our water bodies being deemed poor or moderate. The Minister admits that the vast majority of farmers in this country do not benefit from this derogation. He is engaged in this campaign at the expense of our environment for a tiny minority.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is it not assumed that all farmers benefit from the supports available to agriculture in one way or another? Is it not unwise to give the impression that we are anti-profit? I do not know anybody who works for nothing. If the Deputy opposite is suggesting that would be a good thing and beneficial to the agrifood sector in this country, there is a clear and unequivocal answer to that. All farmers, large and small, rich and poor, are entitled to produce food for the country and, as a result, need to be treated equally.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The dairy sector in this country is based on the co-op structure. Given the socialist utopia Deputy Murphy is looking for, I would have thought he would be a bit more supportive of the sector given that it is farmers co-operating for the benefit of farmers. If he was to spend a bit more time meeting a few farmers or listening, looking and interrogating the statistics rather than trying to shoulder everything into his narrative of the wider world, he would realise that the nitrates derogation is really important in allowing ordinary family farms in this country to make a basic and decent living, providing a wider good to all of society in producing food in a sustainable manner. As a Government, we are absolutely committed to maintaining the derogation and to backing those farmers. I encourage the Deputy to get out and about a bit more and to engage with them himself.

Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Rural Ireland.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Big industry has been lobbying the Minister, as exposed by what has been discovered by DeSmog.

Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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Keep painting that picture, Paul. It is rubbish.