Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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2. To ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality if she supports the removal of guardianship rights for parents who intentionally kill the other parent of their children; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [38221/24]

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Does the Minister support the removal of guardianship rights for parents convicted of intentionally killing the other parent of their children?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this very important issue. All of us in recent times have seen far too many incidents like the one referred to by the Deputy. This is why my Department undertook a review of familicide. This report was published in May 2023. It was commissioned by my Department to effectively respond to a very challenging but also complex area and one that I feel we have seen far too much of in this country. As part of the review there was extensive engagement with non-governmental organisations, with State agencies, and most importantly there has been engagement and continues to be engagement with families of those who have been impacted by familicide. Most of us cannot even begin to imagine what they are going through. Given they are engaging and continue to support and work with us in this process I want to express my sincere gratitude to those. There are others who have not been involved in the system but who advocate on behalf of their loved ones and those they have lost.

There was a significant number of recommendations, with more than 212 recommendations from the report overall. I am absolutely adamant that we get this right and that we try to progress them in a timely manner. They are being progressed as part of this body of work and there are other strands as well. We have the domestic, sexual and gender-based violence strategy and zero tolerance plan, which is bringing forward some of these actions. Other elements are very much part of the family justice strategy also. We have a dedicated team established in my Department to review and progress other recommendations including a recommendation on restricting parental rights in cases of domestic homicide. While there was not a clear path as to how this would be done there are three elements to it: there is a group meeting with the Department and State agencies; there is a second group made-up of the community and voluntary organisations that work with many of the families; and then there is a third group made-up of the parents, the brothers and sisters, and the children of the families. Engagement also needs to take place considering the role and the power of Tusla to take appropriate child protection action in emergency situations. The team has been considering this and are meeting again this month to see how best to bring this forward. They will have recommendations to me on this by the end of the year.

The straightforward answer to the Deputy's question definitely would be "Yes", but when we think about it there are various different scenarios that we must tease through. Maybe I could come back to that.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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It might come as a bit of a shock to most people in this country to learn that men who are convicted of killing their partners fully retain guardianship over any shared children. The killer continues to have the legal right to make decisions that directly influence the lives of those children including, for example, access to therapeutic supports, going on holidays, changing schools and so on. Murder of a mother is child abuse and the law in this country currently rewards the abuser and punishes the children who have been abused. The Minister said there are 212 recommendations in the study on familicide and violence family death review currently being considered by the Department of Justice. I imagine it would take a considerable amount of time to fully consider those 212 recommendations in total. Why would the Minister not separate out this relatively simple and constitutionally uncomplicated change? I am sure the families would support that. It would make such a difference to people living in those tragic circumstances. Why not separate it out and make it law even before this Dáil comes to a close?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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If it were that simple it would be done already but unfortunately it is not that simple. It is the case that for somebody else to become a guardian they will have had to shown that they were for the previous 12 months a part of that child's life and a part of the day-to-day of that child's life. If both parents had been in that scenario and one is since deceased and the other is potentially up for murder or has been convicted then obviously there is nobody who can fill that space. That is one area that has to be dealt with. Second, there have been cases, unfortunately too many, where a person has killed a partner in self defence. The person who has committed the crime has been a victim for many years of either domestic or sexual violence and they have responded in self defence. We have seen many such cases and it is often the woman in this scenario. We have to look at the different types of scenarios that could result in the death of a parent or the murder of a parent because of scenarios of self defence, and there are scenarios that are not necessarily in the best interest of the child depending on the situation itself. There are other strands at work. It is not the case that the 212 recommendations are being looked at together. We are moving forward certain elements. Quite a number of the strategies are already being progressed in the zero tolerance plan and other elements of it. I mentioned the in camera rule and there is also the transfer of information between civil and criminal courts, which is very important to this part of it. That work is under way and will feed into this. I absolutely want to address the concerns raised by the Deputy but it is much more complex than just changing one simple law here.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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There is absolutely no question that a woman who kills in self defence and who has been subject to violence through the years is certainly an exception to what is being proposed here. If Ireland was to change the law we would not be the first country in the world to do so. Laws similar or bearing a strong resemblance to Valerie's law have already been passed in Argentina, Israel, Italy and Britain but there is still an opportunity for Ireland to be in the front rank of European Union countries to pass progressive legislation of this kind. I think the State should take it. On average, seven children in Ireland each year newly suffer from the fact that this law has not been changed. Is there not a danger here that reports are being piled upon reports while action is postponed? We have already had the childcare law reporting project, the study on familicide and violence family death review, and the commissioning of the paper on guardianship of convicted killers, which was due at the end of this month. I note from the Minister's earlier comments that this has now been pushed back to the end of the year. Can the Minister confirm that? I put it to the Minister that there have been enough reports now and it is time to move with urgency to legislate.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I wish to clarify that there is no delay in any report. Any report that I have been given I am acting on. With the familicide report actions are already being taken. This specific one-----

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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But the paper was due at the end of September was it not?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No. What I said was at the end of the year there were recommendations specifically on this. The familicide report does not set how one does this. The Deputy is suggesting that there would be an automatic removal of guardianship. To do that would impact on the cases that I am speaking about. We need to have an understanding of the individual cases. For that we need to change the structure itself and that is what I am looking at. The family justice strategy speaks of the need to have the voice of the child inserted it into any of the cases and that does not happen at the moment. That work is under way. Separately, the work looking at the in camera rule is already being done and how that can continue abuse into the courts. It also means that there is information that might be available through a criminal trial that is not being translated into a civil case where guardianship is going on. We need to make sure that the structures are talking to each other, that the individual cases are understood, that the history of the cases are understood and that informed decisions can be taken. Because of the structures as they exist now that is not possible and this is why I am changing them. This is why all of this work is being done. There are no reports being sat on. All of this is progressing. On this specific issue I am absolutely committed to making progress in this area. I am working with families in this regard who are supporting that change. We need to get it right because it is complex. I hope by the end of the year I will have a very clear direction as to how we can do that.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Can we clarify one point briefly?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Quickly.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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On one brief point, because clarification is needed for families. A paper was promised for the end of September on the guardianship status of convicted killers. It is my understanding that this deadline has not been met. My understanding from the Minister's comments is that it has been pushed out now. Will the Minister clarify this please?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No, this is not a report that is being undertaken as part of this. It is not mine. This is separate. At the end of the year there will be proposals as to how we enact this specific recommendation from the familicide report. They are two different things. We are not talking about that.