Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I move:

That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to set out a clear road map for the abolition of the Carer's Allowance means test by 2027.

The Regional Group is tabling this motion because, given that the budget is next Tuesday, it is time that the Government take action on this issue. The motion calls for a roadmap towards abolishing the carer’s allowance means test by 2027, recognising the essential role that family carers play and supporting those who dedicate themselves to caring for their loved ones. More than 500,000 people, or one in eight of the population, are family carers, forming the backbone of care provision across the country. Despite this indispensable contribution, many carers face inadequate support and recognition, particularly as the cost of living continues to rise.

Through this motion, we seek to acknowledge the immense value of carers by advocating for a shift to a non-means-tested carer's allowance based solely on care need.

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Carers are often left financially vulnerable under the current means-test system, which can tie their income to their partners' earnings. This mostly affects women and leaves them struggling to make ends meet. While many full-time carers are in receipt of the carer's support grant, which acknowledges the important role they play in society, others still have not availed of it. Regardless of this, that grant does not in any way meet the financial demands placed on caring families.

The Regional Group of TDs highlight the findings of the 2022 report, The State of Caring, by Family Carers Ireland, which revealed that many carers face significant challenges in accessing essential services for their care recipients and feel undervalued by society. The Regional Group is seeking cross-party support for our motion ahead of budget 2025. This stresses the need to address the financial hardship and social isolation many family carers experience. The proposal to abolish means testing for carer's allowance and to establish a non-means-tested participation income aligns with calls from Family Carers Ireland, which has long advocated for reforms to better support carers. Catherine Cox, head of communications and policy at Family Carers Ireland, has emphasised the urgent need for change, stating:

For many years Family Carers Ireland have lobbied for the abolition of the means test for Carers Allowance as we believe the current scheme is inadequate, outdated, gender-biased, overly restrictive, and no longer fit for purpose. Despite improvements in recent years [which we acknowledge], the Carer’s Allowance means test remains one of the most contentious issues amongst family carers. Thousands of full-time family carers caring for people medically in need of full-time care, do not qualify for Carer’s Allowance or receive a reduced rate due to their relatively modest household income. It undervalues care work – Carer’s Allowance is the only social welfare payment where recipients are expected to provide full-time work (min 35 hrs) and in return receive just €18 more than the basic social welfare rate. It is inadequate – even before the cost-of-living crisis, households caring for a child with a profound disability face additional weekly costs of up to €244 [per week, as set out in the Indecon report on the cost of living with a disability]. The abolition of the means test and replacement with a participation income based on the valuable work and contribution family carers make in our society would be a watershed moment for thousands of family carers who feel invisible, undervalued and unsupported.

We call upon the Government to implement the unanimous recommendation of the Oireachtas joint committee on social welfare to set a roadmap for a non-means-tested participation income for family carers by 2027.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle agus cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I am delighted to be in the Chamber today to again speak on behalf of the carers of Ireland. I accept the Minister of State's bona fides in this regard. I know it is an area he is interested in. While our intentions are quite similar, where we differ is in emphasis. We are very much in favour of abolishing the means test. Like Deputy Canney, I will acknowledge the small progress that has occurred over recent years as regards the threshold and the quantum of the payment. It is good but it is not good enough and we can go further. That is the reason we are strong proposing a roadmap towards abolishing the means test for carer's allowance. This is for three reasons in particular. The first is money, the second is a moral reason and the third relates to gender equality.

My colleague Deputy Fitzpatrick raised this issue with Deputy Donohoe during Leaders' Questions yesterday. From the point of view of money, the Minister pushed back slightly, saying that, as custodians of the public purse, we have to be careful about every single euro this country spends. We agree with that entirely. However, instead of diluting our case for abolishing the means test, it actually reinforces it because any money spent on carer's allowance is money well spent. It delivers cash right to the bedside, the point of care. It is not siphoned off by layers of administration, bureaucracy and management as it goes downstream. From a money point of view, it is money very well spent.

From a moral point of view, most carers are not carers by choice but by necessity. That is the hand the lottery of life has dealt them whether they are looking after a parent, a sibling or a child with a profound disability. The State should never be seen to take advantage of or exploit that goodness and the love in a family unit.

Deputy Canney touched on the gender equality point of view. It is 2024 rather than 1924. It is completely unacceptable. The preponderance of carers in Ireland are female with more than 90% of carers being female. A female's income should not be predicated on the income of her spouse and that is what is happening now. Instead of getting paid for the work they do, a proportion is siphoned off based on the income of the spouse. We do not think that is right.

As a principle, the Regional Group is very focused on an effective State apparatus that actually works on behalf of citizens. Simplifying this measure makes perfect sense. It is a bureaucracy-busting measure. It will deliver money exactly where it is needed and allow for staff to be redeployed to areas where they are more needed.

To back up what my colleague Deputy Fitzpatrick was saying yesterday, Deputy Donohoe said that a working group had been established. This is a point of encouragement and reassurance we got yesterday. The Minister said a working group has been established to review carer's allowance and that it would report in the fourth quarter of this year. That quarter starts next Tuesday, in six days' time. Is there any indication of when in the fourth quarter that report will be submitted? Will it be early in the quarter, towards the middle of it or late in it?

We are strongly of the view that there is still time in the lifetime of this Dáil and this Government to do right by carers. We would argue very strongly for the abolition of the means test for carer's allowance. If the Minister or the Government were to do so, I have no doubt that they would have the support of the entire House.

Noel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank my colleagues and Cáit Nic Amhlaoibh for bringing this motion before the House. I also thank the Minister of State for being here this morning. It is a very important motion and I hope the Government will support it. As my colleague Deputy Canney said, I hope this will be included in the forthcoming budget.

I am sure there is not a single person in this House who does not have great regard for the thousands of people acting as carers the length and breadth of Ireland and for the invaluable work they do. However, all the regard and praise in the world is not what the carers want. They want action from this Government. Today, we ask everybody in the Dáil, both on the Government benches and the Opposition benches, to support this motion, which will make a real difference. There is something deeply wrong with a system that is happy to let people save the State countless millions of euro every year only to then put barriers in their way, making their lives even more difficult than they already are.

The last census shows that there has been a very significant jump in the number of people acting as unpaid carers since the previous census was taken. There was an increase of more than 50% in the space of just six years. They are giving tremendous service to this State and are keeping people out of hospitals and nursing homes. It is a proven fact that people live longer if they are cared for at home. This is what the carers do. They keep them at home as long as possible. From my experience of talking to people who have come to me looking for help, I would say that a lot of the increase is down to families often finding it really difficult to access the help they so badly need from our health services. As a result, too many of them have been forced to give up other paid work to take over the full-time care of their loved ones or perhaps to reduce their hours and, of course, their income. The census also found that the greatest percentage of the population acting as unpaid carers was to be found on the western seaboard, that is, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo and my own county of Galway. This is another indication of a gap between the level of services available in the west and in the rest of the country.

The motion before the House today aims to take a relatively small step towards recognising the tremendous work carers do. Households face serious expenses where a vulnerable person, whether an adult or a child, needs the help of a family carer. There are extra equipment and disability aids to be bought and transport and medical care to be paid for. It can run to many hundreds of euro a week and puts massive stress on families who are struggling to pay their bills.

Then, when the carers apply for the carer's allowance, they find that even a roughly modest income coming into the household can result in them failing the means test. We must do better for these heroes of Ireland, and I call them of heroes of Ireland for the work they do. As a first step, we must get rid of the current assistance scheme and replace it with a system of payments to family carers that is not means tested. As I said earlier, they are saving the State billions of euro by their work in the home, the burden of which would otherwise fall on the State's already stretched health services. The upcoming budget offers an opportunity to set this in motion now and have it fully ìmplemented by 2027. As I said, everybody in this House really acknowledges the tremendous work that carers do. They keep people out of hospitals and nursing homes. It is important that the Government takes this on board next week in the forthcoming budget and supports this motion.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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Family carers represent one eighth of the Irish population and have long been the cornerstone of care provision in the country. Whether it is caring for an ageing parent, a spouse with a chronic illness or a child with special needs, these remarkable individuals demonstrate unwavering commitment day in and day out.

The means test for carer's allowance is no longer fit for purpose and is significantly gender biased. Despite improving in recent years, the carer's allowance means test remains one of the most contentious issues among family carers. With an ageing population, it is estimated that the number of people living with life-limiting conditions will increase the requirement for carers. Yet, we only have to read The State of Caring 2022 report, which was produced by Family Carers Ireland, to see the significant challenges faced by family carers, including the battle in accessing services and carers themselves feeling unvalued by society. The solution is clear. The carer's means test must be abolished. It is an outdated, unfair, unjust system that fails to recognise the full extent of the contribution carers make to our society.

Instead of penalising carers for their income, we should adopt a needs-based system that provides financial supports based on the level of care required, not on carers' household income. We must recognise that caring for a loved one is an act of compassion that should be supported, not punished. By abolishing the means test, we can empower carers to continue their vital work without fear of financial hardship. We can give them the recognition they deserve and financial security they need to focus on what truly matters, that is, the well-being of those they care for.

Let us stand together in solidarity with carers across Ireland. Abolishing means tests would bring Ireland more in line with international best practice that shows a commitment to valuing the essential role of carers. In places like Australia and the UK, more generous carer supports systems are in place, allowing carers to access financial aid without facing stringent income restrictions. Let us act with compassion and urgency to reform our welfare system. Let us ensure that every carer receives the support they need to continue their essential work without fear of financial hardship or discrimination. The proposal to abolish means testing for carers is aligned with the call by the Family Care Ireland, which has long advocated reform to better support carers, and will make a significant step towards acknowledging and supporting the vital work of family carers in our society. Overall, there is a strong need to abolish the carer's means test in Ireland because it unfairly burdens carers, creates financial inequality and underestimates the vital contribution of carers. The abolishment of the carer's means test is not just a matter of policy; it is a matter of morality and justice. It is a testament to our value as a society and our commitment to caring for those most in need. Let us work together for a future in which carers receive recognition, respect and support.

For many carers who care for a child with additional needs, their caring role is likely to last for decades, which has serious implications for their long-term well-being and financial support. Carers are discouraged to work or study for more than 18.5 hours. Carer's allowance is the only social welfare payment where recipients are expected to work full-time for 35 hours and in return receive just €16 more than the basic welfare rate. That is not fair. A number of people come into my constituency offices looking for places in nursing homes and cannot get them because there are a lot of people in nursing homes who should not be there. They have no-one to mind them in their own homes. A number of people are not being discharged from hospitals because they have nowhere to go home.

This motion is a win-win for everybody. Carers save this country not thousands but millions of euro every year. The people who want to be carers are loving and many of them are looking after their families and everything else. It is a lifetime job and commitment. It makes sense that we abolish the means test. I hope this will be reflected in the upcoming budget.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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This is my fourth time in 12 months to stand in this House to advocate for carers and the abolition of the means test. Seeing as most of what we say seems to fall on deaf ears, I am disappointed, not with respect to the Minister of State, but because we do not have the senior Minister here to deal with this.

There are more than 500,000 carers in this country. One fifth of the population are carers in some capacity. I am going to read into the record what it means to be a carer. This is from the mother of five children, three of whom have intellectual and physical needs. Three of them have a chromosome disorder, t(14;21), which is rare. All three have very complex medical needs, intellectual disabilities and physical disabilities. All three are full-time wheelchair users. Medical issues include brain abnormalities; failing respiratory systems; chronic inoperable cardiac conditions; swallow issues; two are full-time PEG-fed; liver and kidney issues; and osteoporosis. All three have full health insurance with no exemptions due to disabilities as they have had cover since birth. One also has a metabolic disorder and requires a specialised blended diet. Despite all the issues the three children have stacked against them, they are very happy young adults and live life as best they can. I am going to skip what was a very lengthy e-mail to what this lady said at the end of her e-mail.

I am at the stage of frustration and I am worn out. The failure of the health system is a joke. I am a carer, a nurse, a physio, a dietitian, a speech and language therapist, an advocate. I perform minor surgery at home when feeding tubes dislodge. I train nurses and carers in manual handling, food safety and then I am their mother. I have to do the fun things, attend meetings, attend sports games that include going swimming, lessons, etc., just like every other parent, and I must now apply to the courts to be allowed to administer for my adult children who due to their physical and intellectual needs lack capacity. This process is mind-boggling in itself. I am tired.

I do not think anybody could discount what that mother is saying. She is a mother first and the carer comes second. As my colleagues have already pointed out, she is a mother by choice and a carer by necessity. She has five children. She saves this State €1 million per year to keep those children out of residential care. It is as much as that. That is just one carer. We are not talking millions of euro; we are talking billions. Most carers I speak to and deal with in my constituency believe the means test is a punishment on top of everything else they have to deal with, and I feel the very same.

I have seen a 74-year-old wife look after her paraplegic husband for the last three years. She did not get carer's allowance simply because of the means test. This was despite receiving much advice not to take her husband home because she would not be able for it. Her husband passed away recently and let me tell you, she bore his physical disability with honour in the three years that she took care of him and went down in her own physical capacity. As I said, there are 500,000 carers. I ask the Minister of State to look after them in the budget. It is the very least we can do for the service they do this country.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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The Government is not opposing the motion put forward by the Deputies. I welcome the opportunity this morning to discuss the important issue of the carer supports provided by Department of Social Protection. I thank the Deputies for bringing forward this motion. It is a very timely discussion.

Next Tuesday, the Government will be announcing a package of measures under budget 2025. As in previous years, in the run up to the budget the Minister for Social Protection and I have been advocating strongly on behalf of pensioners, people with disabilities, lone parents, carers and children. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and I have always sought to make sure that the interests of carers and, importantly, people they care for are front and centre of budget decisions.

In budget 2021, we increased the carer support grant to €1,850, its highest ever level. Over the past three budgets, the weekly carers' payments, namely, carer’s allowance and carer’s benefit, have increased by €29 per week. In addition, over the past number of budgets there have been a suite of once-off lump sum and double payments to assist carers and those they care for with the cost of living crisis and rising bills.

The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has also delivered on the programme for Government commitment to provide a pension solution for long-term carers. From January 2024, a new long-term carers contribution scheme was introduced. This significant reform enables long-term carers who have been caring for an incapacitated dependent for 20 years or more to qualify for the contributory State pension. Under the scheme, full-time carers can, for the first time, get long-term carers contributions to cover gaps in their contribution record, which can help them qualify for the pension. This reform is a great comfort and relief to the many carers across the country who have spent their lives caring for loved ones. At the end of August, more than 5,381 people had been awarded long-term carers contributions since the scheme was opened. A total of 532 of these customers have been awarded a contributory State pension, while a further 148 received an increase in the rate paid.

The main income supports provided by the Department of Social Protection include carer's allowance, carer's benefit, domiciliary care allowance, and the carer's support grant. Spending on these payments in 2024 is expected to be in the region of €1.7 billion. Since 2015, there have been significant increases across all of the carers schemes. The number of people claiming carer's allowance has increased by 54%, leading to a nearly 84% increase in the cost of the scheme. The number of people claiming carer’s benefit has increased by 81% and the cost of the scheme has increased by 92%. The largest relative increases were to the domiciliary care allowance, with a 91% increase in recipients, leading to an increase in expenditure of over 126%.

Carer’s allowance is the main scheme through which the Department provides income support to carers in the community. Some 97,406 people are currently supported by this payment. This year, the expenditure on the carer’s allowance scheme is estimated to be over €1.1 billion. As the Deputies are aware, carer’s allowance is a means-tested social assistance payment awarded to those who are caring for people who need full-time care and attention. While the caring requirements of carees may be different, this does not affect the rates of carer’s allowance. It is intended to provide an income support for the carer and does not depend on the individual caree’s requirements. The means test ensures that support is provided to those most in need and plays a critical role in determining whether an income need arises as a consequence of caring.

We have made significant improvements to capital and income disregards for carers. This Government has implemented the first improvements to the carer's allowance means test in 14 years in order to enable more people to qualify for the payment. As part of budget 2022, the Government increased the income limit for a couple from €665 to €750, and for a single person from €332.50 to €350. In addition, the amount of savings disregarded in the carer’s allowance means test was increased from €20,000 to €50,000. What is often missed is that this equates to €100,000 not taken into account for the means test in the case of a carer who is part of a couple. This is not an insignificant sum, especially when compared with the capital disregards for other means-tested payments, such as jobseeker’s allowance, for example, which has a capital disregard of €20,000.

As part of budget 2024, and with effect from June, the Government has gone further again. The weekly income disregard increased from €350 to €450 for a single person and from €750 to €900 for carers with a spouse or partner. Since June 2022, this amounts to cumulative increases to the disregards of €117.50 for a single carer and €235 for a carer who is part of couple. These changes have meant that carers on a reduced rate moved to a higher payment. In addition, many carers who previously did not qualify for a payment due to their means were brought into the carer’s allowance system for the first time. These are the highest income disregards in the social welfare system. A single carer can earn €185 more than a person on disability allowance before his or her income is assessed.

This motion calls for a roadmap to the abolition of the carer’s allowance means test by 2027. The reality is abolishing the means test would result in people who may have higher sources of income benefiting, while reducing the scope for the Department to provide income supports to lower-income households. Those carers who rely solely on the income from the carer’s allowance payment would not benefit from the abolition of the means test. As stated previously, carer’s allowance, like other social assistance schemes, operates on the basis of a means test. These schemes are in place to ensure that people without adequate means are provided with income supports by the State in order to alleviate poverty. A means test is a way of checking whether claimants have enough financial resources to support themselves and determining what amount of social assistance payment, if any, they may qualify for.

Officials in the Department have conservatively estimated that the cost of removing the means test for carer’s allowance would be an additional €600 million per annum, based on current claim numbers, that is, in other words, before adding any new inflow of claims. This estimate is based on departmental administrative data relating to the carer’s support grant payment. It is worth noting that the figure takes no account of potential flow of carers onto the scheme as it is difficult to predict how many there would be.

Census 2022 records approximately 290,000 self-reported carers over 19 years of age, with the total having increased by 50%, to over 299,000, from 195,000 six years previously. The carers' organisation estimates there are more than 500,000 family carers in Ireland. This is 200,000 more than the official recorded figures contained in census 2022. Of course, it is acknowledged that there is uncertainty about how many people would meet the other conditions of the scheme, for example, providing full-time care, and the overlap between the census and the current recipients of the carer’s allowance payment. However, if it is the case that the number of carers is this high, it follows that the cost of abolition of the means test is also high. The Department has costed a potential inflow of the people who self-reported as carers in the census. Once the inflow is reckoned, the cost estimates rise to between €880 million and €2 billion a year.

While there are some who have called for a form of payment for caring or a participation income, carer’s allowance is not the appropriate vehicle through which to address this issue. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has made it clear on several occasions that any such proposal for a payment for caring would fall outside the social welfare system. It is also worth pointing out that the removal of the means test would create complications with respect to exportability of the payment within the EU framework for social security, as is the case with the universal child benefit scheme. Payments might have to be made to people living or being cared for outside of the State, costing significantly more than the low to high estimates provided by the Department. This is a further reason any non-means-tested carers payment should sit outside the social welfare system.

Notwithstanding the substantial improvements made to the payments under her remit, the Minister for Social Protection established an interdepartmental working group with the Department of Health and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to examine and review the system of means-testing for carers payments. This group is expected to report to the Minister on its finding in quarter 4 of this year. I can confirm to Deputy Berry that we are looking at the middle of quarter 4 this year. The outcome of this work and other work in the Department in respect of means-testing in general, also due in the coming weeks, will help to inform any future decisions regarding changes to social welfare payments, including carer’s allowance.

I assure the Deputies that the Government remains fully committed in doing all we can to support family carers. As I said at the outset, we are not opposing the motion. All of us in this House recognise the valuable contribution family carers make to our society and we all want to further enhance the supports available to them. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has done a lot to improve carers payments during her time as Minister. While we recognise that more needs to be done, we need to ensure that whatever we do is affordable and sustainable in the future.

I again thank the Deputies for raising this matter and look forward to their contributions.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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First, I commend Cáit Nic Amhlaoibh, our Regional Group parliamentary assistant, for her help. The Regional Group previously brought forward a motion on these issues in February. We continue to press for the rights of family carers and for carers to be formally and properly recognised for the value, contribution and intrinsic good they offer our State.

Would the Minister of State be shocked if someone accused those in charge of our State of using familial love as a form of coercive control? He might wonder how could somebody think that. He should consider the fact that so many people in our society, when faced with the reality that a loved one or relation or even a friend needs a high degree of care, decide to interrupt whatever they are doing in their lives, work or careers to provide the time and care the individual needs.

Can the Minister of State see that people who look to the State for income support as a result of their caring decision may sometimes feel coerced because the State does not really want to value what they do? It knows that those caring for these family members or friends would probably undertake the care role anyway, simply because such selfless, caring people often cannot consider or trust the care of their loved ones to another, the State or a private institution. We might flinch at the idea of an unfeeling State. We might flinch at the idea of State coercion but what else might describe the Hobson's choice suffered by so many who decide to take on a responsibility that should fall to the State but for which often the State cannot adequately provide? It refuses to acknowledge in monetary value, however, a semblance of the responsibility of which the State itself has been relieved.

Our Regional Group motion is straightforward and equitable. I am sure it will receive the full support of the House, thereby acknowledging the intrinsic value of carers in Irish society. The best and most appropriate way for me to illustrate the importance of the motion is to share a typical family story that highlights the unfairness of means-testing the carers' allowance as it exists today. These are stories I am sure each Member of the House hears regularly. They are the kind of stories we should not have to hear, nor hear repeated into the future.

A gentleman from the south east who is now in his late 20s grew up with a younger sibling who required a lot of care due to mental and physical disabilities. From an early age, it was clear this young girl would never live independently. Their parents devoted their lives to both children, but one parent has since passed away and the other now requires significant care. The brother, who has a partner of his own, now dedicates a large portion of his life to caring for both his sister and his father. He is a college graduate but is yet to put his education to use due to these pressing family responsibilities. Like so many other carers in society, this man is doing his best. The problem for him and many like him is that his partner is also doing her best. She works in the pharmaceutical industry and, as a result, earns a decent wage. This decent wage disqualifies him from accessing the carer's allowance. Her income must, therefore, cover a sizeable mortgage and the rising cost of living we are all too familiar with - costs such as heating, electricity, groceries, and lots more besides - all on this one salary. The State expects this man to be financially supported by his partner while he cares for two vulnerable family members. The State accepts the hard efforts these people make in terms of care giving but refuses to recognise the real value of that care. The position today is that this man is now considering moving back in with this father, away from his partner, just to meet the criteria for carer's allowance and carer's benefit so that he can earn a dignified living on his own. Personnel from the Department of Social Protection are compassionate towards this man's situation and have done everything they can, but their hands are tied in doing anything further.

What is happening to this family is not right, just as what is happening in respect of a multitude of similar stories from so many other families is not right. The predominance of these carers are women. It is time for the State to do better and relieve some of the burden such family caregivers are facing. I urge the House to pass our Regional Group motion to correct this injustice and give carers the respect, support and recognition they deserve in our society.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an nGrúpa Reigiúnach agus le Cáit Nic Amhlaoibh mar gheall ar an obair atá déanta acu ar an rún seo. I thank the Regional Group and Cáit Nic Amhlaoibh for their work on the motion. Aontú supports the end of the means test for the carer's allowance. The reason we support it is that, no matter what background one is from or whether one is rich or poor, there is a sacrifice, hard work and opportunity lost in providing care for somebody else. It is really important to recognise that from the State's perspective. One in eight people in the State give care to someone else. This is an enormously valuable, and often selfless, role and action. It has an enormous benefit for the individual who is cared for, but it also has an enormous benefit to the State. The State saves billions of euro because it does not have to provide the care being provided by the caregivers in this situation. Those who are providing care for a loved one, those who have given up a career or sacrificed their social lives for the purpose of caring for a loved one, deserve to be paid for the work they are doing.

The reality is that the majority of family carers in this country are women. The reality is that there are women in this country who are being denied a carer's allowance because of their husband's wages. That is the situation that exists. In reality, the means test for carers is actually hurting women. That is a really important point to make. Imagine a woman in an abusive relationship who is caring for her child 24-7. She may never see a penny from her husband's income and a means test on her carer's allowance is actually denying her financial independence in this situation. It has a real negative effect on her ability to be independent within society.

According to parliamentary questions tabled by Aontú, 72,440 people have had their carer's allowance removed in the past decade. That is a startling figure. In my own county, 2,328 people had their carer's allowance removed. Some of those cases involved people who have passed away, etc., but there is no doubt that in many of those situations incomes have improved or changed and, as a result, people have fallen out of the net and lost the carer's allowance. Another aspect of the carers allowance means test is that it has a downward pressure on families' ability to gain an income. If a person's partner is getting more hours at work or has an opportunity to progress within a company and get a promotion and perhaps a pay rise, in many cases the person will have to make a decision on the finances and refuse the opportunity, not do the extra hours or take the promotion or progress within the job. In many situations, carers, many of whom are women, would love to do part-time work for their own self-expression, to get out of the house, meet new people, engage with society and be productive in many ways. Again, decisions will have to be made not to proceed in that manner because there is a penalty in doing so. The Government will say that it will cut the person's carer's allowance if he or she does those few extra hours of work in the week. It is an extremely difficult situation for many families. It has a downward pressure on those families in terms of income and it also means that many people, especially women, lose their independence economically as a result.

We are coming to this Regional Group motion in the same year that we had the carers' referendum at the start of March. In those referendums, the Government said there would be a new dawn for carers. It spent €25 million on a referendum to convince us it meant business in terms of really delivering for carers. Here is an opportunity for the Government to put its money where its mouth is in those terms. It seems to me that the Government is refusing to do so. While the Government is not going to oppose the Regional Group's motion, it does feel extremely cynical that the Government will not oppose it because that would be a very unpopular thing to do, but the Government is not saying it will fully implement the heart and soul of what is sought in the motion.

I ask the Minister of State to reconsider and to make sure that a proper plan of action is put in place to get rid of the means test for carer's allowance.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have had this discussion time and again, and several words emerge time and again. Recognition and respect are a great deal of it, but not just recognition and respect. The fact is that when one looks at people in poverty or at risk of poverty in Ireland, three categories of people, namely, people with disabilities, single parents and carers, are consistently up near the top.

I commend the Regional Group on the motion. It is a very good motion that we will support. Countless speakers have identified the significant scale of the number of people who are providing care throughout the State. The fact is that none of those people, and I have made this point previously, who are giving care are doing it for money or anything like that. They are doing it out of a sense of responsibility and love for their loved ones. They are doing all that they can imagine is possible or reasonable under the circumstances they or their loved ones find themselves in. The fact is the system would collapse entirely without them. As a nation and a society we are incredibly indebted to them. It is high time we give that the recognition it is due and that we give carers the support they are due. It is very clear the referendum on care demonstrated the fact that carers felt taken for granted and neglected. It is incumbent on all of us in the House to reflect on that and to see how State policy in the future goes forward. It is very clear that there is a need for radical change.

We can all think of examples from our own lives of people who, for example, are getting minor surgery and all the different things they have to do. The sacrifices that are made are enormous. Very many of these carers have not been on a holiday for years. They rarely get the opportunity to socialise. Very often, the number of people they might meet in a week, or their opportunity to speak to people other than the person they are caring for, is severely constrained. This affects people right across the social classes and it affects people of different ages. There are some very young carers and some very elderly carers. It is vitally important that we support them.

It is important that the Government reflects on this. The budget will be introduced in several days. It seems unlikely that the issue of the means test will be resolved at that stage, but I urge the Minister of State to make sure that this budget, to the greatest extent possible, and I do not believe the Government will go far enough, addresses this issue and ensures that carers are supported.

I will make two points on this issue. Many people have spoken about the people who do not qualify for the allowance, and rightly so because many do not qualify. The point has been made that people can be in situations where there is financial abuse and so on. However, an awful lot of people qualify for only a little bit of carer's allowance. Those people are very often on relatively modest incomes and are under pressure. I also make the point that we should not look just at carer's allowance. We should talk about carer's benefit too. There are people who find themselves in situations where they have to give up their job because somebody has fallen ill, or there has been an accident, or a condition might have been discovered in a person. The cliff edge that is there is very significant. We need to look at a system like the pay-related jobseeker's benefit for carers so there is no cliff edge for carers who have to give up their work. There should be a pay-related scheme based on people's contributions so they do not have that cliff edge, but can taper off and have carer's allowance after that. We should look at both.

The point was made about the means test and the rate. They are not mutually exclusive. The rate has to increase. The fact is people on the lowest incomes who are currently getting full carer's allowance are under very severe pressure as well. We are advocating for an increase of €12 in the rate this year as well as consistent increases. It is not either-or. We can address both. It is important that the rate is increased, however. I commend the motion. I encourage the Minister of State to act on it.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Regional Group for bringing forward the motion and affording us the opportunity to again discuss the important work of family carers, and the need to review and reform supports for them.

Family carers have long been held up as the crucial pillar of care and support in Ireland. We have various strategies and documents referring to the important role that family carers play in our society. They are viewed as the backbone of care provision in Ireland. Parents caring for a loved one with complex needs often face numerous unquantifiable challenges. There are physical and mental health impacts. There is loss of income due to the inability to work outside the home, which leads to potential debt or poverty. There is also social isolation, strained relationships and the constant stress of advocating for adequate services and supports. Despite the fact that all family carers say they do not provide the care for the income they receive - they provide the care because they want to provide it and would not change that - Family Carers Ireland has done research that indicates family carers are lonelier, more isolated and are generally in poorer health than the average person. They have repeatedly been denied the care and support they need and deserve. From looking at the research, carer's allowance is inadequate, gender-biased, restrictive, and it undervalues care and is outdated. When it was introduced in 1990, it was not assigned to lifetime carers who provide prolonged care and require an integrated income support system that encourages participation in work and education.

I welcome the fact that the report of the interdepartmental working group is expected soon. It is to be hoped that report will be published at the time or very shortly afterwards and is not delayed. We need to look at what it proposes going forward.

It is not good enough that many carers' payments fall way below the established minimum essential standard of living. The income inadequacy imposed by existing social welfare payments has to be addressed in the upcoming budget. Core weekly rates must be increased significantly. Income thresholds and the means tests for carer's allowance must be raised considerably, which would result in higher payments for those who rely on this payment. It would also mean that more family carers would qualify for the allowance. Any changes to rates or thresholds need to be introduced from the beginning of the year.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I commend the Regional Group on giving us the opportunity to discuss this. The issue of carer's allowance is something on which every TD and Member of Parliament has been inundated, probably for years now, by families with people with disabilities, or those with a relative who has an operation, comes home from hospital and needs constant care. As was said, most of the people doing the care are female and are caring for the people they love. They are caring for a sibling, or an elderly parent or child. In many of those cases, they would do it even if money were taken off them, never mind if they got money. That needs to be recognised. This care comes out of an absolute commitment to a person who is central to a carer's life. We all deal with such carers, particularly those who care for an adult child with disabilities who they have brought into the world, and have kept and looked after. They fear the day they will pass away and what will happen to that child and how that child will manage. The trauma of all that is something that has to be recognised.

People have talked about the notion of respect, compassion and all of that towards people who provide this magnificent service, which the State would have to provide if they were not there to do it. At the base of it all, there has to be a recognition that people need to get a decent income that they can manage and survive on. I have dealt with a number of people. One lady has been caring for a child for the past 25 years at this stage. She is not entitled to the full carer's allowance because her husband works and an income is coming into the house, naturally enough. It causes such stress and hardship on that woman. I have seen her age significantly over the past decade because the child she cares for is deteriorating continuously. It is the worry about all of that which is putting such a plight on her.

The idea that the State has a role to play in ensuring that we respect people is fine. We very often hear lots of words about how people need to be looked after and all of that. Ultimately, however, the way the State can provide for people is to ensure that it provides financially for their support. The notion of carer's allowance and carer's benefit, and the amount of money put into those, is simply not adequate to reflect that support. We need to ensure that happens.

The Minister of State needs to listen to what is happening here. We need to ensure that we provide for people into the future. The budget coming up in the next couple of days needs to deliver.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Regional Group for bringing the motion forward at this timely junction before the budget. Every single Deputy either knows someone who is a carer or perhaps has a family member who is a carer.

We have all come across cases of people who are just beyond the threshold to receive the carer's allowance. For example, John lives with his wife in County Wexford. His wife has Alzheimer's and needs 24-7 care. His household income is just €10 above the threshold. John is literally housebound. He gets one hour respite once a week provided by the Family Carers Ireland. During these 60 minutes he does his weekly shopping and banking affairs. That is his only outlet for the entire week.

Another case involves a mother who has three adult sons with Fragile X syndrome. She gets no respite whatsoever and receives disability allowance for the first son, half for the second son and absolutely nothing for the third son.

This highlights the in-built bureaucratic failures and the need for comprehensive review of the entire care system. Some 72% of carers do not receive any respite and there are no respite places in Wexford. Carers are not valued enough in our current system. The facts are right before our eyes. Households with people with disabilities who need care are far more expensive to run and maintain, between medication, special food, special equipment, heating and transport, not to mention the endless hours of care. This must be reflected in the upcoming budget. Many carers are receiving payments below the established minimum essential standard of living.

This is a country that boasts being in the top ten of the richest countries in Europe yet something is not adding up here. It is time to look after the carers who look after the sick, the elderly and the people with disabilities. Just imagine if all of the carers in this country stopped doing what they are doing? The country would be in chaos in five minutes. The threshold must be increased with the carer's support grant increased by €2,000. Pay-related benefit payments must be a minimum of €450. We are also calling for a €500 disability and carer's lump sum as part of our budget 2025. We believe there is need for carers to be recognised as a valuable part of our communities, to be provided with all of the financial needs necessary to carry out their valuable work, to reward them for the personal sacrifice to the people they love and mind, and for the special contribution they give to the State. Gabhaim buíochas.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach Gníomhach. I also thank the Regional Independent Group for bringing this motion before the House.

For people who contribute so much to the well-being of people who need care, it is unjustifiable that carers are expected to contribute so much, yet are expected live on payments that fall way below the established minimum essential standard of living. That is why to incrementally bring social welfare rates in line with a minimum essential standard of living over time, we are calling for the rate of carer's allowance and benefit to be increased by €12 in the budget. We are also calling for a €500 disability and carer's lump sum cost-of-living proposal at a cost of €172 million.

There is a contradiction between the expressions of appreciation for carers that come from the Government benches and the reality that they struggle to maintain an income that sustains them and the people they care for, while at the same time getting the respite and other services they need. This is evident from the complaints that come into my office from people who are stunned at the basis upon which the Department has rejected their applications for carer's allowance.

One would not find such demands made during plans for the Leinster House bike shelter, but it is okay for carers. In one instance I dealt with a case in which a person being cared for was changing their carer. The new carer was refused on the basis that the cared-for person did not meet the full-time care requirements as set out in the Social Welfare Consolidation Act. This makes no sense as the requirements of the person being cared for did not change and could not change in that time.

Other applicants are left waiting inordinate amounts of time for a decision to be made, only then to be rejected. This is no way to treat the people who have so little and provide so much. To be honest, this Government’s approach to care, whether that is for people in need of respite, recuperation or palliative care, has not been acceptable in many communities.

St. Brigid's Hospital in Carrick-on-Suir is one example of where a service that was deeply ingrained within the community and which kept many people in their own community was ripped out of that locality. Reliance instead was put on private providers, or on services outside of the area, when many of the people at St. Brigid’s wanted to stay in it.

Carers are being increasingly relied on to help keep people in their own locality. They deserve more. The Government needs to back up its fine words with actions. Gabhaim buíochas.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Members for bringing forward this motion. We all know that there is absolutely no doubt that there is a need for reform in the carer's allowance scheme. I, like many others, have met many carers in the work that we do, in our canvassing and in chatting with people. The work they do is absolutely immeasurable. If we were to count that support and their care in just monetary terms, we would be unable to do so.

The following is just one of many examples of the unfairness of the current system. This person was caring for her elderly mother. She did all of the work caring for her mother in her final years. She gave up her well-paid job to take on the role of a carer where the State would otherwise have had to fill in the gaps. Her mother was on the other side the city so there was the travel costs, petrol, etc., and finding the time to get there and back home to her own family. She was assessed, was €10 over the threshold and got nothing. She was not looking for praise or for a salary but was looking for help, support and fairness.

There are many other cases like this all over the Dublin West constituency and throughout the State and they need support and deserve recognition. Sinn Féin has committed to a pay-related carer's benefit payment which will prevent carers who have to give up work to care for someone from seeing their income fall off a cliff edge. The maximum payment would be €450 with a tapering down of the payments every six months.

Many people find themselves in a situation where they have to finish work because of the need to care for someone and people are down a lot of income as a result. We believe that it is important that there is a pay-related carer's benefit scheme similar to the jobseeker's pay-related scheme. It is not good enough that many carers are receiving payments that fall way below the established minimum essential standard of living. Their income inadequacy imposed by the existing social welfare payments must be addressed.

Carers do absolutely amazing work. We know that both personally and as TDs in our constituencies. It is time that this area was reformed to acknowledge that care and work. Gabhaim buíochas.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are back in here talking about carers and I really welcome the opportunity and thank the Regional Independent Group. The fact is that we are all going to talk about the huge savings to the State through the great effort that is put in by carers and how we could not operate without them but we still fail in delivering for them. We could probably have this conversation forever and we are in the run-in to the budget. We really need to see significant moves on this.

I will use two examples just in the past while which are two of many. One particular woman is a carer in her home but she also works for a home care company. She is trying to operate within the 18.5 hours per week because she, like everyone else, has to deal with the other realities of life with costs. Occasionally, because of the clients she is working with, it requires more time than is initially allotted and she may end up working 20 hours. What happens then, like many others, is that the carer's allowance section reviews the case, they receive the payslips, it is found to be over 18.5 hours, and she has to pay back the full amount for the week. There is no word other than "disgraceful" to describe this and the fact that there is no element of discretion or flexibility.

Another lady working for a dementia charity was asked by her boss to fill in because it was absolutely necessary as someone was off work sick. She did this for a considerable amount of time and, unfortunately, the same scenario happened to her but over a longer period of time. She now has to pay back €28,000 and I am sure that every Deputy in here and beyond could speak about multiple incidents like this. The fact is that it is utterly unfair and is an abject failure for us delivering for those who are delivering not only for their families but also for the State and are saving us a huge amount of money. One can imagine the day-to-day worry which people have to deal with in these sorts of circumstances. One is not talking about people who have huge resources. Not only are they curtailed in the work they can do in the time they have, not only are they under severe pressure, but they are trying to do their absolute best for clients, the term we use though we are talking about citizens who require absolute support. The carers provide that particular support and they then get absolutely hammered from a financial point of view.

My colleagues have spoken of the fact that we really need to make moves. We know that the rules around carer's allowance are incredibly rigid. Many are not eligible for the payment due to the means test and are in no way getting the support. They deserve recognition and we need to make those necessary moves on payment and on thresholds. Gabhaim buíochas.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. He has had more time than anybody else. I call Deputy Sherlock.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I rise to support the motion and while we acknowledge that the Government is not opposing the motion, they are certainly not supporting it. That has to be said.

11 o’clock

The motion is very clear and succinct. It is refreshing that there is such brevity in the wording of a motion.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Clarity of focus.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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There is also clarity of thought and purpose, as Deputy Naughten said.

The Minister of State said:

The reality is that abolishing the means test would result in people who may have higher sources of income benefitting while reducing the scope for the Department to provide income supports to lower income thresholds.

He went on to say, "Officials in the Department have conservatively estimated that the cost of removing the means test for carer's allowance would be an additional €600 million per annum [a year] ... ". It is fair to say that there is no intention on the part of the Government to abolish the means test. That is fair enough. This is possibly the third motion in respect of carer's allowance that has come before the House, certainly in the past 12 months or so. There is a strong view among opposition parties in particular that we need to ensure that we keep moving forward in terms of recognising those who care for people in our society. We have countless examples of those cases, as has been articulated already, and we fight for those people every day of the week in our constituency offices. However, we want to see constant improvements to their financial position.

I acknowledge, as I have in the past, the fact that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, as the lead Minister, has made improvements to income disregards. That has to be acknowledged. If I was short of calling for the abolition of the carer's allowance, it was because we know it that is not going to happen. If we can see improvements to income disregards for applicants as part of the trajectory the Government is on in next week's budget, it will give some confidence to people within the sector.

I want speak about one example, which I know is representative of a relatively small cohort, whereby a worker, typically male, whose female spouse is caring for somebody. That worker, who is employed by a semi-State company, may avail of overtime and move the family beyond the income thresholds and disregards. Suddenly, his spouse, who has been caring for a young adult for a long time, will lose all of the benefits that accrue by dint of the increased income. That could be looked at as part of the work of the interdepartmental working group in order to bring more of those people back into the net. It is very easy to analyse who has been lost from the system. There are carers out there who are receiving no incomes by dint of means tests and so on. If the Government could bring those people back in, it would be doing a good day's work. The Minister of State indicated that the interdepartmental group will report back to the Minister by the end of quarter 4. From he said earlier, we do not have any sense of what the thinking is or what is emerging in terms of where the Government wants to go on this.

There is an acknowledgement by the interdepartmental working group that census 2022 showed that there had been a dramatic increase in the number of carers. What we did not get from the Minister of State is a sense of how that demographic change is working its way into the work of the interdepartmental working group. We certainly do not have a sense of the Minister's thinking with regard to how we will deal with this changing demographic in the context of whether there will be a recognition of the increase in of the number of carers and the kind of schemes or financial supports which will follow from that. We could reasonably surmise that there will be an increase - perhaps in this budget - in income disregards, grants and so on. That is welcome and has been acknowledged, but we are facing a serious demographic challenge regarding the increase in the presentation of chronic illnesses, particularly Alzheimer's, which, along with other comorbidities, are resulting in the need for an increased level of care within society. We do not have a sense from the Minister of State of where the policy will go.

While we support the motion, it must be stated that there may be a case for the abolition of the means test in recognition of the massive demographic changes. The Government - any Government - is, realistically speaking, going to have to price that in the context of those demographic changes. The Minister of State said that the estimated cost of removing the means test would be €600 million. Must we now potentially price that in because of the massive demographic changes that are taking place?

The Minister of State said:

Census 2022 records approximately 290,000 self-reported carers over 19 years of age, with the total having increased by 50%, to over 299,000, from 195,000 six years previously. The carers' organisation estimates there are more than 500,000 family carers in Ireland. This is 200,000 more than the official recorded figures contained in census 2022.

To be fair, he also stated:

... there is uncertainty about how many people would meet the other conditions of the scheme, for example providing full-time and the unknown overlap between the Census and the current recipients of the carer's allowance payment.

There is a way of measuring that, however. If the Department of Health is part of the interdepartmental working group, there is a way of finding what the real-time position is in order for the mathematics and calculations to be done on that. We are facing a serious demographic crisis when it comes to caring in Ireland. We might have to, I suggest respectfully, bite the bullet and acknowledge that the abolition of the means test might have to be something that is priced in for the future.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Regional Group for tabling this is an important motion. We have seen many others like it over the past 18 months. The motion is a reflection of the justified pressured that is placed on all of us as public representatives when we knock on doors, meet people and hear these hard stories. A sum of €600 million to abolish the means testing for the carer's allowance does not seem like a huge price to pay, particularly when we consider the money saved by the Exchequer as a result of the care provided by these families.

I want to give a voice to a person who is in the Gallery. One of the things I have found most difficult during my time in Dáil Éireann is every week hearing about, seeing or witnessing a parent, a family member or a child coming here to seek a basic necessity that should be given by the State but that is not being given. I was made aware on Monday of a woman who had started camping outside Dáil Éireann on Friday evening last. I was told she is a person from my constituency, whom I had met several years ago but with whom I had lost touch. Her name is Nadine Staunton. She is in the Gallery today. When I went outside to talk to Nadine at 6 p.m., she was sitting outside her tent. It had just started to become quite cold. She told me, and the many people who are following her journey on social media, that the reason she is going through this struggle is for her sons. I asked Nadine what it would take for her to go home that evening and she said that she simply wants to be listened to and for her voice to be heard by those in positions of authority who have the capacity to make a difference, not just for her children but for others as well.

I am going to read Nadine's words into the record because that was the promise I made. Nadine is a carer, and I want to give an indication of what she has had to experience over the past number of years.

In Nadine's words:

I wanted to take a moment to share a little bit about my life as a mother to my two wonderful boys, Maddix and Jefferson. My world revolves around them, and every day is dedicated to making sure their needs are met, especially as both of my boys have autism. It’s not always easy, but it’s the most important thing in my life.

Most days, I'm up by 6 a.m. because there’s always so much to do to make sure everything is just right for the boys. From planning their meals to laying out their clothes, setting up their routines, and preparing them for the day ahead, it’s all about ensuring things run smoothly for them. Maddix and Jefferson thrive on structure, and I know how much they need that predictability to feel safe and supported. By the time the world wakes up, I've already been running on full speed, making sure they're ready to face the day.

At 12 and 9, Maddix and Jefferson are at different stages in life, but both of them need me in unique ways. Raising children with autism is a constant learning process. Some days it feels like I've got it under control, and other days, I'm met with new challenges I couldn't have expected. From navigating sensory issues to helping them communicate and understand the world around them, every day is different. But no matter what the day brings, my goal is always the same - to make sure they're growing and learning in a way that builds their confidence and independence.

One of the hardest parts is making sure they have access to the services they need. It's not easy to get the right support, and I often find myself having to fight for the therapies, educational programs, and resources that are so vital for their success. It's exhausting, both physically and mentally, but I know how important these services are for their development, and I won't stop until they get what they need.

The truth is, there's very little time for rest or "me time". Even when the day winds down, my mind doesn't. I'm always thinking about the next steps - what needs to be done tomorrow, what appointments are coming up, and how I can continue to advocate for them. I'm their voice in so many ways, and that's a responsibility I take to heart every single day.

Despite how overwhelming it can feel at times, I wouldn't trade it for the world. Maddix and Jefferson are my everything. Watching them grow and progress, even in small ways, makes all the long days and sleepless nights worth it. They're strong, resilient, and capable in ways that inspire me every day, and I'm committed to doing whatever it takes to help them become the best versions of themselves.

This journey is full of challenges, but it's also full of love and purpose. And for my boys, I'll continue to give everything I have, no matter how hard it gets.

When I was sitting in the Gallery with Nadine just now, she told me that it took a full three years for her to finally be eligible for a carer's allowance, having been so rigidly assessed through that assessment of needs. It is a cruel system. It asks too much of people who are depending on it, and at the same time while they are providing absolutely valuable care to those who need it, and also supporting the State while the State has abdicated on those responsibilities more collectively.

I do not need to remind anybody in this room of the immense pressure placed on our health and social care system. We hear it every single day - waiting lists, overcrowded hospitals and overworked staff. What is often missing in this conversation is the role played by the unsung heroes of Irish society. That is our carers, the mothers, fathers, sons and daughters who, without pay, take on the hardest, most emotional work imaginable, looking after their family members who are sick, elderly or have a disability.

The carers are not just providing care. They are saving the State millions by keeping people they love out of nursing homes, hospitals and other institutions in some cases. In spite of all this, we ask them to prove their worth, not by the incredible care they provide but how little they earn. That is how we ask them to prove their worth: tell us you are poor enough to avail of State support for the invaluable support that you provide to the State. It is unjust in so many ways. I will repeat again that €600 million to abolish that seems incredibly reasonable to me, and I certainly would not bat an eyelid at that.

There have been many other stories. Some were captured here today. During one of the last motions brought to the Dáil on abolishing the carer's allowance, I spoke to a woman whose name I actually have not got permission to use, who told me a little bit about her story. Like so many other people across Ireland, her life was upended when her husband was diagnosed with a degenerative neurological condition. He needs full-time care. He cannot dress himself, cannot get out of bed without help and he struggles with basic tasks like eating and even communicating some days.

The person I met did what most others would do in that situation. She stepped up and became a carer to her own husband. We know, and everybody here knows, that stepping up had a cost. The person was at one time a full-time teacher. She had to reduce her hours and eventually stopped working altogether. She lost her income, and yet the financial demands only increased with adapting their home for her husband's mobility issues, buying medical equipment and paying for the occasional respite care, none of which, we know, comes cheap. Then, here is the kicker. Despite all of this, and despite giving up her career, her earnings and her mental and physical health, she was then told by the State that she does not qualify for carer's allowance. Why was that? Because her husband's modest pension pushed them above the income threshold. In other words, the means test failed to account for the real lived experience of families like Mary's. It only sees numbers on a page, not the financial, emotional and physical toil of full-time caring.

That couple is not an exception. They are very much the rule, and there are thousands replicated across the length and breadth of this country who are in similar circumstances, who provide invaluable care to a loved one and are saving the State millions, and who are being told that they must suffer not only emotionally but financially. It is cruel, unjust and not reflective of a republic of decency. It is one where we ask too much of too many people to prove that they are financially burdened enough so the State can step in and provide a modicum of assistance.

If €600 million is the figure that the Minister of State has figured to abolish this, good. Get rid of it. Do I accept that some people may, in some instances, take advantage of the system? Absolutely. I would rather that scenario than the system crushing thousands upon thousands of people every single week, as is the reality today.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. The next up is People Before Profit-Solidarity, and Deputies Paul Murphy and Mick Barry. They have six minutes in total.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Eight, I think. It is just me.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is just Deputy Murphy. I thank the Deputy.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I welcome this motion. It is good that we are discussing it. We in People Before Profit are long-time supporters and advocates of abolishing the means test for the carer's allowance. We have included it in our alternative budget, which we will be launching on Friday. We are also proposing turning the carer's allowance into a non-means-tested living wage of at least €15 an hour, or €525 a week.

Carers have told us repeatedly how demeaning the means test is for them. They say that the long form is soul-destroying. I have it here; it is 28 pages long and includes the means test and the medical report. You also have to fill out to prove that the person you are caring for is disabled or sick enough to need your full-time care. The form states that you can only work or engage in training or education "where you can show to our satisfaction that adequate care has been or will be provided in your absence for the care recipient". To do that, you have to get a letter from your course provider proving how many hours a week in total you are expected to do, and also "show to... [their] satisfaction" what the care arrangements are while you are doing that.

If you lived abroad for more than three months in the last five years, you have to explain to the Department of Social Protection why you did that. Trust is not a concept that the Department of Social Protection is familiar with. Trust is reserved for the wealthy and for business people who are allowed to self-assess for tax. Trust is for businesses and banks which are allowed to self-regulate. Trust is not for the little people. Anyone who needs assistance from the State, or anyone who wants their human right to access public services or supports is not to be trusted. With all of these hoops to jump through, with this total lack of trust, it is no wonder that carers say they feel like they are begging for something they are entitled to.

Begging for something you are entitled to would be a familiar feeling for carers, disabled people and anyone who has had to rely on this uncaring State, this 100 years of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, for social welfare and public services. Rather than treating people as human beings with dignity and rights, this uncaring State denies people basic human rights to healthcare, education and housing. It makes people wait so long for basic public services that they are forced to pay for expensive private services instead. Half of carers say they have paid privately for products or services that should be publicly provided to support their caring role.

This uncaring State outsources its responsibilities onto underfunded charities forced to endlessly fundraise, sell raffle tickets and beg for donations. Three quarters of carers say that the people they care for do not receive sufficient formal support. Some 72% of carers have never received respite; never. Just imagine that. It is yet another condition of the carer's allowance that you can only take a holiday if you arrange care for the person you are caring for, and that you are responsible for arranging that. Is it any wonder that 48% of carers say they are severely lonely, and a further 28% are moderately lonely?

Of course, family care is not just work. It is not even just care work. It is care work done with a huge amount of love but it is still hard and difficult work, and it should be valued and recognised as such. Instead, the State has been content to exploit the work and love of family carers.

This has to change. Unpaid family care saves the State €20 billion every year, which is enough for a second health service. In fact, it is a sort of shadow second health service. Family Carers Ireland is correct when it says that without unpaid care, "our health and social care systems would collapse". Despite that, thousands of carers and their families are forced to live in poverty every day as a result of Government policy. The full rate of carer's allowance starts at only €248 a week, even though you have to care for at least 35 hours a week to get that. That is €6.52 an hour. Think about that. It is less than the unacceptably low subminimum-wage rates that employers are permitted to pay 16-year-olds. What does that say about the value that this State places on care, carers and the people they care for? In reality, it is far less than €6.52 an hour because for many family carers, this is a 24-7 job, not a nine to five one.

Of course, that is assuming your household income is so low that you manage to pass the means test to qualify for carer's allowance in the first place. If you are a full-time carer and your partner earns more than €900 a week gross, not net, you are automatically disqualified from getting the carer's allowance. The State says you do not deserve any payment for the full-time work that you are doing, simply because your partner is working. The uncaring State forces you into permanent economic dependence on your partner. Of course, it is mainly women that it does that to, because women are the majority of full-time carers. The State and the Constitution say that women belong in the home and that care should be provided in the home by the family for free. That is what this Government's proposed referendum meant as well. It is deeply reactionary and conservative. It is the legacy of an uncaring Catholic state that we are still not rid of. Its tentacles remain in healthcare, education, and the attitude of the State towards care and carers. It is long past time that we separated church and State in this country once and for all.

Regardless of whether they manage to get carer's allowance, the vast majority of carers are struggling financially. Family Carers Ireland's State of Caring 2024 Survey found that 69% of carers find it difficult to make ends meet, one in five carers had to cut back on essentials like food and heat, and 16% missed at least one rent or mortgage payment just in the past year. It is a national disgrace that in a wealthy country like Ireland, people doing such important work, day in, day out, and the people they care for, are forced to live their lives in poverty. The State has an €8 billion surplus this year. It would cost less than €400 million to abolish the means test in the budget next week. This is fundamentally about what we value in this society. Do we value people and care, or do we value corporate tax breaks and inheritance tax cuts for the big business and the wealthy?

I want to finish by sending my support to the carers and family members who are watching this debate and to all those who will be protesting outside the Dáil at the monster meeting organised by Cara Darmody. It will be at 11 a.m. outside the Dáil. It is for the right of every child in this country to have an appropriate school place with all the supports that they need. They should not have to fight so hard for everything but it is only by continuing to fight that they will ultimately be successful.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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Carers. It is in the wording. It is carers. I am from a family of 11. In his last number of months and years, people came to care for my father. As a big family, we were able to do much of it ourselves but we had people who came in part-time. I cannot thank people who do that kind of work enough. The dignity and the home life they have, being cared for in their own home, is unbelievable. How many people have left full-time jobs to go and become a carer? Looking at the Government sector, it pays people full-time wages and does not get the full service, yet there are people who are going above and beyond to care for people, whether children or adults, across the board, and the Government treats them like second-class citizen. These are people who, even when they are finished their work, are never finished, because they go above and beyond and do extra hours to make sure that people are cared for. Again, it is in the word carers.

If the Government has learned anything in its last five years, it can see that this sector gives it the best value for money, even though it is working for a pittance compared with what the Government pays other sectors. I ask the Minister of State, for all the carers in Ireland, who, please God, will be there in the future to look after us when we get to all ages, to do the right thing now. The means test needs to be abolished. We also need to make sure that carers are paid proper funding so they can create a future for their own families.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Regional Group for this important motion and for giving us the chance to debate it. The Government appears to be fudging on this. Support is not good enough without acting and providing the carers with the facility so that they do not have to go through a means test, because many carers are seeing after people out of the goodness of their heart. One thing that people who need care love is to stay in their homes for as long as possible because if they are moved into a community hospital, long-stay setting or a nursing home, they feel like they are in the departure lounge. We need to give those people the dignity that they deserve after giving their lives for our country and bringing it to where we are today.

Regarding the value that these carers bring, I know one brother who has been seeing after his sister for the last 20 years and because his wife is working, as a nurse or something, he will not qualify for the carer's allowance. He is at home every day and he is at the person's beck and call, day and night, 24-7. It is unfair that people who want to care for a relative are means-tested, because they provide a valuable service. Other countries have developed this model to perfection. Since I came here in 2016, we have been calling for people to be cared for in their own homes. It would save the country millions. I believe only one third of the people who are actually caring, fewer than 100,000, are being paid for it, out of 300,000 in total caring.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Regional Group for tabling this important motion. We in the Rural Independent Group tabled a motion before, where we were adamant that the means test should be abolished. It has no place in a modern society because many of the people who are giving care are giving up other employment. They are not earning somewhere else because all they have to rely on is the carer's allowance. They are not doing it for money. They are doing it for the love of what they are doing. That is helping, whether a relative, a neighbour, or a friend up the road. We have excellent people.

I want to talk about the caregivers themselves. I want to talk about the men and women from County Kerry, whether north, east, south, west, or mid-Kerry, who I know personally, who are getting into their cars today, going around and calling from home to home. In every place they are going, I will tell the Minister of State one thing they are not doing. They are not looking at their watch or their clock. They are not worried about what time it is. They are going in and they are seeing after that person who needs their assistance. They are doing so in a diligent and a kind way. They are not doing it for money. They are doing it because they love the people, they have a bond with them and they really provide an invaluable service that saves this State not millions but billions every year. It has been estimated that they save the State between €2.3 billion and €5.8 billion. If you can keep people at home and stop them from falling and maybe getting a fracture and finishing up in an acute bed, you can imagine the difference that it makes to those people to be able to stay in their own homes. The one wish every person will have is that when they finish their time, they will do so in their own homes.

I ask the Minister to please listen to this motion and the people who are supporting it, and do the right thing by the people.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I too compliment the Regional Group for tabling this motion. It is an issue which we have all been pressing for ages. Carers and people who do home help and caring are the last vestige of humanity left in the HSE and the public health service. Everything else has been stripped away - all the supports such as community welfare are gone. These people need to be respected. As Deputy Healy-Rae said, they get into their cars, travel around and give their time lovingly and with dedication. They are interested in their clients - I do not want to call them "clients"; they are human beings. They keep them out of hospital. In many cases, family carers do it as well. Indeed, there is a huge incidence of children giving care to grandparents or parents. It is a shocking situation because it is against the law but a blind eye is turned. We need proper, meaningful supports for the people who give this care. It is time the Government acted on this.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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The means test for the carer's allowance is a significant barrier for many carers who need financial support. Currently, there are 299,128 carers in Ireland but only 96,826 receive the carer's allowance. This means a large number of carers are missing out on essential financial support. Abolishing this test will ensure that all carers receive the assistance they deserve regardless of their financial situation. This change would not only provide much-needed financial relief but also recognise the invaluable service carers provide to society. The carer's allowance means test needs to be abolished immediately. That is the call from all of us. I praise the Regional Group for tabling this motion today. Without carers, how many more people would be looking for beds in nursing homes, community hospitals or hospitals in general? We all know that carers save the State a fortune. It is not possible to get home help in west Cork at present. I am begging home help providers to roll out home help but they do not have the people to do so. It is not possible to get a bed in a community hospital or nursing home at present in west Cork. There is a dire crisis that can be resolved with care for the person in their own home by providing a proper carer's allowance for everybody, which is not means tested, immediately.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank Deputy Canney and his colleagues for tabling this motion. I have no hesitation in supporting it. The abolition of the means test for carers is the most basic step we can take in a republic to give that word meaning. We stand here today awaiting a Supreme Court decision concerning a case in which a woman has been forced to take a judicial review all the way to the Supreme Court. I will not quote what was outlined in relation to the son but I will outline what was said in relation to the woman:

I am quite satisfied from the evidence that it is enormously demanding caring for [the son] and that the reduction of the full rate of carer's allowance ... has had a profound adverse effect on the first applicant and causes significant personal and financial strain to her as [a] full time carer...

It goes on to outline that she does not have the option of working at all. That is what we are awaiting from the Supreme Court. It may well be that it is not the most appropriate case but at least it is being teased out. This is in contrast to the Government, which held a referendum earlier this year, cynically, creating no obligation on the State. The "No" vote was the highest percentage "No" vote in Irish history. Some 73.9% voted on 8 March against the proposed referendum. Pre-legislative scrutiny was waived, the debate was guillotined and it was cynically held on International Women's Day; that is where the Government is at.

This motion asks for a pathway but the pathway has been laid out repeatedly. If it was not, it should have been clear from pre-legislative scrutiny what was necessary. Instead, we rely on carers, many in an unpaid role, which saves the economy not millions but billions. An Oireachtas committee as far back as 2022 said that at the very least people should be individually assessed and the whole family means should not be taken into account. The NUI Maynooth report commissioned by Family Carers Ireland asked for its abolition and Family Carers Ireland called for it to be abolished in June. This is the most basic thing. I do not know why a pathway is even needed but I agree with looking at that as quickly as possible. Even in simple economic terms, it is a win-win. However, we have never valued women's work or caring in this society. I wish that an economist would come into the House and put a value on what caring saves the economy because the majority of men could not go out to work unless they had a female member of the family at home in an unpaid position.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank the Regional Group for tabling this motion on eliminating the means test for family carers. It echoes part of the motion I tabled on supporting family carers. While there are many ways in which family carers need to be supported, eliminating the means test for the carer's allowance is one of my two top priorities alongside the provision of adequate respite care for family carers. That is also essential to support them in their 24-7 work. We often use the phrase "24-7" without thinking about what it means. It means caring every hour of every day and night, seven days a week. That is the reality of 24-7 care. That is the life of a family carer. We ask the Government that the carer's allowance be paid to family carers without means testing. Family Carers Ireland has long campaigned to ensure this becomes a reality. An important point is that the person being cared for has to be shown to need full-time care. This is not a part-time effort. It has to be certified as full time. That is what the carer's allowance is for.

Making the carer's allowance exempt from a means test would signify a paradigm shift in that family caring is not just seen as some sort of add-on that mostly women and sometimes men do in the home but as something supported by the State because the State recognises that family caring is an essential part of how we organise and manage our society. For too long, as Deputy Connolly said, caring was seen as women's work. That is why the carer's allowance is means tested. Often, the man was seen as the provider and women managed the home. That is the mindset from which the carer's allowance emerged. It needs to be changed.

My final point is about the cost of getting rid of the means test.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Yesterday, I listened to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, speaking about this issue. He informed us that the cost would be between €600 million and €2 billion. That is off the charts; it is nothing like that.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is taking her colleague's time.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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The Minister should be better informed.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I support this motion. A lot of nursing homes have closed. No one can put a value on the amount of help that people give in their own homes to help elderly or young people. I listened to "Today with Claire Byrne" this morning. A mother of a child with autism was on the show. She had a coffee shop which she had to close but because she and her husband worked hard and they had a few pound in the bank, they were entitled to €20 based on the means test. That is for somebody who closed their business and minded their child seven days a week. On top of that, they had to fight for services. Whatever few pound they got was put towards private help when the public services were not able to give it.

I spoke to a woman the other day who lived in Dublin. Her mother who lives close to me got sick so the woman moved down but because the house in Dublin was empty, it was classed as an asset and she was not entitled to the carer's allowance. The other question was how could you own a house in Dublin and look after someone down the country. The facts are that a lot of sons, daughters, brothers and sisters give up an awful lot to help people rather than having them go into nursing homes or hospitals. We should appreciate what they do, and not put them through the torture of the means test.

We should always look at how a country looks after people who are vulnerable. At the moment, as a country that is basically awash with money, we are not providing the services required. Let us consider what a carer gets under the carer's allowance compared with what it costs if a person goes into a nursing home. It is probably five times more if that person had to go into a nursing home. Let us do the maths. As my colleague Marian said, it costs approximately €600 million to €2 billion. We should have a fair idea what it would cost and I believe this country can afford to give that service to those people and basically get rid of the means test.

Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad to support the motion. It is very shortsighted of the Government - any government - not to embrace the opportunity to abolish this means test. It does not reconcile with our ability to dish out social supports hand over fist to people from other countries, mainly as a result of the Ukraine war, without any means test at all. Some of them are driving all sorts of vehicles and running businesses abroad. That is a matter of fact and something the Government has chosen not to listen to.

Second, there should only be one criterion for awarding carer’s allowance and that is clinical in nature. The amount of support given to people by family members and carers throughout this country is saving the country billions of euro per annum. This will not gravitate to the top because of the symbiotic relationship between senior members of the Government and the establishment and the media. If there was one thing any government could do to properly support the people of this nation and acknowledge their input, it would be to abolish the means test on the carer’s allowance.

For example, the health system is floundering at the moment. The Government lifted the embargo on recruitment but put a cap on it. In effect, it is the same thing. We need to take the appropriate steps.

Violet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Independent)
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I thank the Regional Group for bringing forward this motion. I acknowledge the fantastic efforts of Vicky and Fiona from Family Carers Ireland Mid-West, who took part in the Hell and Back fundraiser and raised €2,000.

I raised this matter with the Minister yesterday evening and want to respond to comments on the abolition of the means test and abuse. Family Carers Ireland believes that the requirements to satisfy strict medical eligibility criteria and that applicants provide full-time care are sufficient to protect the carer’s allowance scheme from the potential abuse the Minister referred to last night. It will not open up the scheme to all carers but, rather, only to full-time carers. Some 5,500 carers nationally were left without last year and that meant 319 people in County Clare who were in receipt of the carer’s support grant.

Far too many women in this country have given up work or delayed their return to work but because their partner works, no matter who they are, they are excluded and, as a result, isolated financially as well.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for their contributions. The Government is not opposing this motion put forward by the Regional Group and I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate.

The Government is very aware of the valuable work being carried out by family carers and this is evidenced by the extensive measures that have been taken to support carers in recent years. The approach to date has been targeted and has involved increased payment rates, in conjunction with earnings disregard increases and targeted cost-of-living lump sum and double payments. This approach was maintained as part of budget 2024 and the Government will not be found wanting on 1 October when delivering the 2025 budgetary package.

I have listened to the inputs from many Deputies. While some of them have called for a form of payment for caring or a participation income, carer’s allowance is not the appropriate vehicle through which to address this issue. As the Minister for Social Protection has made clear on several occasions in this House, any such proposal for a payment for caring would fall outside the scope of the social welfare system. As mentioned in the opening statement, the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has established an interdepartmental working group with the Department of Health and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to examine and review the system to means-test the carer’s payment. The group will report on its findings in quarter 4 of this year. The outcome of this and other work regarding broader means tests taking place in the Department will help inform any future decisions regarding any changes to the carer’s payment, including the carer’s allowance.

It is also important to acknowledge the range of other supports for carers that are provided by the Department of Social Protection which are not means-tested but, rather, based on a needs assessment, such as the carer’s support grant, carer’s benefit and the domiciliary care allowance. The carer’s support grant is a payment for all carers, even those who are not in receipt of the carer’s allowance. It can be claimed by carers regardless of their means or other social insurance contributions. The Minister for Social Protection increased the grant as part of budget 2021 to €1,850, its highest ever rate. The grant was paid on Thursday, 6 June to more than 127,000 carers who are in receipt of the grant in respect of some 140,000 carees and at an estimated cost of €275 million.

Carer’s benefit is based on social insurance contributions. It is a very effective payment for people who are required to leave the workforce or reduce their working hours to care for a person who is in need of full-time care. It is payable for a period of up to two years for each care recipient and is estimated to cost almost €58 million per annum.

The domiciliary care allowance is payable to a parent or guardian in respect of a child who has a severe disability and requires continual or continuous care and attention substantially over and above the care and attention usually required by a child of the same age. As part of budget 2024 we increased the payment by an additional €10, bringing it to €340 per month. This monthly payment has increased cumulatively by €30.50 under this Government’s expenditure in 2024 and is estimated to cost almost €274 million.

The Minister for Social Protection has met with and listened to families of very sick children throughout the country and heard about the financial stress they have experienced while their children were undergoing medical treatment. She has made a number of changes to this payment, including extending the period during which domiciliary care allowance can be paid to children in hospital from three to six months. The domiciliary care allowance is now available for babies who remain in acute hospital care after birth for a period of 18 months. Although these are relatively small changes, they have meant a significant amount to the families who are thrust into these very difficult situations.

While the focus of today's debate is the carer’s allowance, I am sure everybody in the House would agree that access to services and wider supports are also crucially important. Carers often have more wide-ranging and broader needs, including respite care, homecare hours and access to disability services. In this regard, the Government is committed to a continued improvement in the delivery of services. The Government has made a number of commitments in this area specifically for carers. The programme for Government commits to delivering a carer guarantee to provide a core basket of services to carers across the country regardless of where they live. Annual funding of €2 million has been provided since budget 2021 towards delivering the care guarantee, providing a more standard package of support for family carers in every region, in tandem with the community and voluntary sector. A sum of €1.9 million of this funding has been channelled to the service level agreement with Family Carers Ireland, while the remaining €100,000 is supporting the operation of professionally moderated online family care support groups through Care Alliance Ireland. Under this service level agreement with the HSE, Family Carers Ireland is providing community and individual support across five areas of activity, including intensive and emergency support, education and training and a free careline.

The programme for Government also commits to extending free GP care to carers in receipt of the carer’s support grant. Since September 2018, individuals in receipt of either a full- or half-time carer’s allowance or benefit are automatically eligible for a GP visit card. As of 1 July 2024, more than 7,407 persons in receipt of either full- or half-time carer’s allowance or benefit have GP visit card eligibility. More than 2 million people, or more than 40% of the population, currently have access to free GP care through either the medical or GP visit cards.

Respite care may involve providing alternative family or institutional care for older people or people with physical or intellectual disability, mental health conditions, chronic conditions, palliative care needs or addiction to enable the carer to take short breaks or holidays or respite. It is recognised that family individuals have different needs and, therefore, investment in a range of respite options is required. Respite may be provided in the community, within the person's own home, the HSE residential care settings by agreement with voluntary organisations or by contracted private facilities. It may involve day or overnight respite. More than €62 million euros in funding has been provided annually to provide respite-based beds in older people’s services. In 2023, respite was provided to approximately 9,200 older people.

As regards today's debate and on competing demands, as I have previously said, the Government has worked and continues to work to improve supports for carers and those they care for. However, there are a lot of competing demands across government, particularly at budget time, which means it is not always possible to do all the things we would like to do. Maintaining social welfare rates at an adequate rate within the fiscal resources available to the Government is an ongoing process and is guided by evidence on supporting those who are most in need. The priority is to support people trying to make ends meet and to support the most vulnerable in our society. While, of course-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt the Minister of State, but the members of the Opposition who have tabled the motion are entitled to their ten minutes’ speaking time. This debate is to be finished by 12 o'clock and I want to give them their ten minutes. I am asking the Minister of State, with respect, to make the rest of his speech available to Members.

I will ask whoever is organising the Order of Business to address this issue. I come across this problem every week. Too many groupings are being put in and we cannot get it done. From here on in, either the time limit should be extended or fewer groupings put in. They have to extend the time limit. I have kept to the time. This cannot go on every week. I call Deputy Lowry, who has five minutes. He will be followed by Deputy Naughten, who also has five minutes.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, Deputy Ring, is very sensible, as always. I agree with him on the timing.

Taking on the role of a family carer is a profound commitment that can arise at any point in life. It is often motivated by a deep sense of duty and compassion. The enduring responsibility and challenges of caregiving can be daunting, however. Until people experience the role of family carer, they cannot fully grasp the challenges that are involved. Across the country, 500,000 people are caring for family members, with 10,000 carers in County Tipperary alone. These carers may be parents or children with serious illnesses or disabilities, adults caring for those with complex needs or individuals looking after older family members. In some cases, they may be caring for multiple people. Carers dedicate their lives to supporting family members who cannot fully support themselves. This role is immensely fulfilling and worthy, yet it is also one of the most demanding. Carers often face each day with uncertainty and many of them have no formal preparation or training. They frequently put their lives on hold to provide care. Caring is a full-time responsibility, often extending both day and night. There are no set hours or breaks and there is no certainty as to what each day will bring. Without reliable support, many carers cannot leave home to work, shop or engage in social activities. The role of a carer is 24-7. Even during their rare breaks, their minds are filled with worries.

The service carers provide is invaluable. They ensure their loved ones receive the care and attention they need, allowing them to remain in their homes and communities. This not only enhances the quality of life for the person being cared for, it also provides emotional and psychological benefits. Being cared for by a family member can offer a sense of security and comfort that is unmatched. Moreover, the contribution of carers extends beyond the family. Family carers in this country save the State an enormous amount of money, estimated at €20 billion each year. By providing care at home, they reduce the need for State-funded care facilities and services. This not only alleviates financial pressure on the healthcare system, it also ensures that resources can be allocated more effectively.

Despite their invaluable contributions, carers often encounter significant challenges. Many have had to give up their careers, leading to financial strain. In addition, the physical and emotional toll of caregiving can be immense, with carers often experiencing burnout and stress. It is crucial that we recognise and support the vital role carers play in our society. The newly established interdepartmental working group, which is tasked with examining means-testing of family carers, should consider the immense value that carers provide. Their tireless work and total dedication save the Exchequer a staggering amount each year. None of us knows what the future holds. Any of us could require some care at some time. If we are fortunate enough to have a family member willing to care for us, enabling us to remain in our homes, we must recognise the priceless value of that care.

Back in April, I and my colleagues in the Regional Group highlighted the urgent need to end the means-testing of the carer’s allowance. While I appreciate that the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, has established a working group tasked with examining means-testing payments to family carers, I believe we need an early intervention. I welcome the fact that the Government accepts our motion today, but acceptance without action is of no use to anyone. We need urgent action and financial commitment to eliminate means-testing of carers.

In addition to financial savings, the work of carers has profound social implications. By caring for family members at home, carers help to maintain the social fabric of our communities. They enable those they care for to stay connected with their neighbours, friends and local services, fostering a sense of belonging and community cohesion. Furthermore, the presence of a dedicated carer can significantly improve the health outcomes of the person being cared for. Studies have shown that individuals who receive care at home often experience better physical and mental health compared with those in healthcare settings. This is due to the personalised care and attention they receive, which can be tailored to meet their specific needs and preferences.

Carers also play a critical role in the early detection of health issues. Their close relationship with the person they care for allows them to notice subtle changes in health or behaviour that might otherwise go unnoticed. This can lead to earlier-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Deputy. I now call Deputy Naughten, who has five minutes.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We have moved this motion to recognise the invaluable contribution of carers to Irish society. We want to acknowledge the fact that there are half a million carers right across this country who are providing vital care daily, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. These carers deserve recognition not just in words, but through practical support. The introduction of a non-means-tested carer’s allowance that would focus solely on care needs rather than on financial status would help to provide that recognition to many of these carers.

There is also the fact that the carer’s allowance means test not only puts a financial burden on carers in terms of trying to comply with the rules and regulations, it also causes huge fear for carers with regard to the threat, the chilling effect, that they may lose their carer’s allowance. Those who are providing care 24 hours a day, 365 days a year should never be put in a position in which they are living in dread of a review form coming through the post or in fear of a financial loss. They are so dependent on this to meet their day-to-day needs, in many cases to meet the heating needs of the older person, and to meet many of the additional costs of caring, such as transport, attending hospital and so on. We should not put people in Irish society under that fear and anxiety when they are providing such a vital service.

I acknowledge that the Government has done a considerable amount to support carers. The Oireachtas joint committee has worked closely with the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, to increase the income thresholds and extend the supports relating to the State contributory pension. This is all very positive. However, I want to turn to the argument that has been put forward here by the Government about the potential cost of abolishing the means test for the carer’s allowance.

12 o’clock

In his opening contribution today, the Minister said his officials had, conservatively predicted that it would cost €600 million. I have never come across any Department official coming forward with a conservative figure, because that is not the way they work. The reality is that we are talking about 132,000 people in receipt of the carer's support grant. If we put that against the numbers that are already receiving the carer's allowance, we are talking about 34,500 additional carers who would get the carer's allowance. Therefore, it is not the conservative figure that the Department came up with; the reality is it would be about half of that.

The Parliamentary Budget Office carried out an independent assessment of the cost of abolishing the means test for the carer's allowance and its figure is €375 million. That does not take into account the significant administration cost involved in currently managing the means test. We are coming to a cost closer to €300 million per annum to ensure that carers in this country providing full-time care do not have to worry about the fear of a means assessment for the care and support they provide every single day of the year.

I accept that this cannot happen overnight, but what we want to see is a commitment from the Government to put a roadmap in place to back the evidence that has been provided by the study from Maynooth University and a significant increase in the means allowance for carers in the budget next week. I refer to the additional income they can have while they continue to provide care. It is not income that they are getting, as in many cases it happens to be their spouse's income. They should not be denied this support because someone in the family goes out to work.