Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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8. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection if she will consider allowing discretion on the 18.5 hours per week employment exemption, under the carer's allowance scheme, in circumstances in where it has no impact on the level of care provided; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [37486/24]

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It is like a dose of Epsom salts at the moment. I have taken up with the Minister before the issue of the 18.5-hour cap on someone in receipt of the carer's allowance. I have given examples of cases in which the child for whom the carer is caring is in education and the carer could work for more than 18.5 hours a week. The Department should allow flexibility in that limited number of cases for such circumstances.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Government acknowledges the valuable role family carers play and is fully committed to supporting carers in that role. This commitment is recognised in both the programme for Government and the national carers’ strategy. My Department provides a comprehensive package of carers’ income supports including carer’s allowance, carer’s benefit, domiciliary care allowance and the carer’s support grant. Combined spending on all these payments to carers in 2024 is expected to exceed €1.7 billion. The carer’s allowance is a means-tested social assistance income support paid to carers who are caring for people who require full-time care and attention. The means test is used to target the support at those most in need. There are currently 97,407 people in receipt of this payment. The person being cared for must be so incapacitated as to require full-time care and attention and be likely to require this full-time care and attention for at least 12 months. The time spent providing care must not be less than 35 hours per week. However, the carer payments provide flexibility in allowing carers to engage in training, education or work of up to 18.5 hours per week. In effect, a carer can engage in these activities for half of a full-time working week. During this time, adequate provision must be made for the care of the relevant person. Both the full-time care and attention requirement and the 18.5 hour-limitation are contained in the respective legislative provisions of the carer’s allowance, carer’s benefit and the carer’s support grant schemes. I consider the limit of 18.5 hours to represent a reasonable balance between meeting the care recipient's requirement for full-time care and the carer's need to maintain contact with the workforce. Any proposal for further changes to this condition would need to maintain this balance and would have to be considered in a policy and budgetary context.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I accept everything the Minister said. I am talking about a small cohort of people. They are the mothers of children with profound disabilities, intellectual disabilities or mental health issues who are in a training centre or in full-time education. They are out of the home for more than 18.5 hours a week because they are at school or at the training centre. There is no issue in relation to care or the need for care. If that person can avail of education or additional employment - there is already a means test cap so they can only do up to the means test threshold anyway - why can they not work 19 hours in such circumstances, rather than sitting at home looking at the four walls, if they are willing to go out?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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It has been increased over the years. It started at ten hours, then went to 15 hours and the most recent increase was to 18.5 hours. We need to strike a balance here because a person needs to provide full-time care and attention and when that 18.5 hours is added to the 34 or 35 hours of care that must be provided, that is a good few hours.

There are a lot of things I would like to do in this budget for carers but I will have to prioritise. That is the reality of the budget process. Increasing the income disregards is something the Deputy raised with me on many occasions.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will raise it tomorrow morning, early.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I increased the income disregards in the last budget and I always look at everything. I have taken a number of steps in recent budgets. In November, a €400 lump sum was paid to people who receive the carer's support grant. A Christmas bonus of a double payment was paid to people who are in receipt of carer's allowance and carer's benefit. I have increased the domiciliary care allowance in successive budgets. It is now €340 per month. It is important to say the domiciliary care allowance is not means tested and goes to everyone who is caring.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What I am looking for here is a small bit of discretion with the social welfare officers rather than having the 18.5 hours set in stone. We are probably speaking about maybe 15 or 20 people in total across the State who would avail of this where their son or daughter is in full-time education or training, he or she is picked up in the morning and dropped home in the evening and for the rest of the week the parent provides full-time care. None of us here can question the level of care and I know that is not what the Minister is doing. What we are looking for here is a small amount of flexibility for these 15 or 20 cases around the country if the parent wants to take part in education for their own mental health to get them out of the home. It benefits everyone and the parent will be able to provide more effective care when their son or daughter comes back from education or training.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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A person has to be caring for 35 hours to qualify for the carer's allowance. He or she is allowed to work for 18.5 hours, so that brings it up to 53.5 hours per week. That is a fair week's work, in fairness, when both are done. The Deputy made a point and I do not disagree with him. Sometimes discretion can be great and then sometimes it can land you into a lot of bother, depending on who is interpreting the discretion. I will ask my officials to look into the issue. I always welcome ideas that make things better for people. I will look into the issue but will not make any promises as yet.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We move to Question No. 10 which is also in the name of Deputy Naughten.