Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Táimid ag bogadh ar aghaidh anois go dtí an dara Saincheist Thráthúil. Deputies Mick Barry, Pádraig O'Sullivan agus Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire wish to discuss the lack of therapists at St. Killian's special school in Mayfield, Cork city. They have one minute and 20 seconds each.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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St. Killian's special school in Mayfield, County Cork, is the largest special school in all of Munster. No therapists have been in this school since 2019. Last November, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, met a delegation from the school which included the principal. At that meeting, the Minister of State promised to make €150,000 available to the school to hire therapists. The school soon put the arrangements for this to happen in place and waited. Meanwhile, St. Killian's was told that a pilot programme returning therapists to schools would be set up and would include a number of Cork schools. St. Killian's was not included in the pilot and the school continues to be denied the €150,000 the Minister of State promised. These kids urgently need therapy to fulfil their full potential in life. The State is playing a monstrous role by actively blocking, preventing and frustrating them from fulfilling their potential. This is abuse and it has to stop. Tonight I call on the Minister of State to guarantee that moneys are released to allow the school to hire those therapists at least until such time as it can be placed on a functioning pilot programme. I stress the word "functioning" because we have not seen sight nor sound of the programme that has been launched.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for taking this Topical Issue. I know this is an issue she has worked on in recent years. I know it is something she wants to bring to a resolution. I also acknowledge that without her intervention, I do not think we would even have the pilot scheme that is in place. That needs to be put on the record.

As outlined by Deputy Barry, St. Killian's is a very progressive school. It has more than 100 children with a huge, complex range of needs and there is a diverse range of needs in the school.

It was obviously anticipated at the outset that St. Killian's would be in the pilot scheme project. That, obviously, has not transpired and there is inevitable disappointment there.

It is my understanding that the second tranche of schools - I believe there are ten - is due to be announced by the end of October. What I am asking is that the Minister of State, Mr. Bernard Gloster and Mr. Bernard O'Regan consider bringing forward that deadline of the end of October by a number of weeks to give those parents, these children and the school management the reassurance that they will have a chance of being in that intake. As the Minister of State will be aware, and as Deputy Barry outlined, St. Killian's has a shovel-ready proposal. It could go in the morning if it was included in the subsequent scheme and I would urge the Minister of State to consider bringing that deadline forward.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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First, I apologise on behalf of Deputy Gould, who was included in this but who is sick with the flu and cannot make it. I, Deputy Barry, Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan and several others, including Deputy Gould, were at a meeting in St. Killian's last week. It was a powerful meeting. Parents should not have to be in this situation but they gave us such testimony about the difference that therapies would make to their children. The reality is they are being denied the opportunity to reach their full potential. The opportunity for these children to reach their full potential is being taken away from them.

It has been a sorry saga. They were given a commitment that if they went away and found the therapists, the money would be there. It is not ideal to be relying on the private sector but the reality is that that offer was on the table. They have done the work. They have found the therapists. Clearly, there is no principled objection to the use of private therapists on the part of the Department. That being the case, why can funding not be released to this school, whether in the pilot scheme or otherwise? The therapists are there. They are waiting to go into this school to give these children the therapies they deserve.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputies for raising this important issue for discussion. As Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities, I remain fully committed to the continued development and enhancement of our children’s disability services. This includes school-based therapy supports for special schools, including St. Killian’s in Cork and across the country. I met with the principal, as the Deputies outlined, and a number of parents from St Killian’s late last year and, at that stage, we discussed providing funding to the school to hire therapists as a way to get clinicians into the school. I still stand over that. Concerns were raised with this approach by both the HSE and the Department of Education, and over a series of Cabinet committee discussions, this proposal evolved into the pilot announced by me, the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, last month. I most certainly had hoped that St. Killian’s would be part of the initial six schools announced but, unfortunately, this decision was not something within my gift alone. I had hoped for that, based on exactly what Deputy Barry said that it is the largest special school in Munster. The initial six special schools selected to participate in the pilot were chosen following detailed engagement between the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, the Department of Education, the HSE and the NCSE. The Department of Education identified and suggested schools for inclusion in phase 1 of the pilot based on educational need and detailed engagement undertaken by the Department of Education over recent years. The HSE then confirmed the six schools for inclusion in phase 1, from those suggested. The programme will be provided by the HSE’s children’s disability network teams, CDNTs, in 16 special schools, commencing in Cork and Dublin, and will be supported by the NCSE. The purpose of the programme is to provide the effective delivery of in-school therapy supports to children and will supplement existing services being provided through the CDNTs.

I fully recognise that there are many deserving schools who support children with complex needs and it is vitally important to note that an additional ten special schools will come on board on a phased basis during 2024-2025. To answer Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan, I will certainly ask if they can be brought forward. Special schools not included in the initial phase of the pilot, which includes St. Killian’s, will be considered for selection as part of the next phase. It is anticipated that the additional ten schools will be identified by the end of October with a view to commencing those to progress in January 2025.

School selection will be based on where the needs profile of the children identified as greatest from an educational and health perspective, and where resourcing is not currently available in proportion to these needs. Regarding the provision of private therapies for children with disabilities, the Government and I remain supportive of the use of available private capacity, and the funding of same. This is only possible for schools as part of the pilot. The HSE will continue to prioritise the recruitment of remaining therapists to work in special schools.

Only today, I met with the HSE CEO, Mr. Bernard Gloster. He met with the relevant stakeholders - the REOs, the chief officers, the heads of services, the CEOs of the lead agencies, the CDNTs, HR, finance and the national integration access team - to ensure that it was clearly and unambiguously set out to everyone on that call that the pilot is a decision of Government and, as a public service, it is for implementation. This requires the same level of service to be in place in the schools by the end of the month. He set out to the REOs and all managers that it is non-negotiable.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Last November, the Minister of State made a promise and she has not delivered on that promise. The Minister of State owes this school. The Minister of State owes these children. They have an ask and I am asking the Minister of State to reply to this. They are asking for sufficient funding to hire the therapists even if it is only for a few months before the Minister of State gets them into the pilot scheme. They do not want to be left hanging in limbo. Maybe there will be a pilot scheme. Maybe there will be something in January. They are asking for the funds now to hire the therapists. They are ready to go. If they are in the pilot scheme, it is fair enough to take it from there. If the Minister of State's answer to that question is "No", how long is she asking this school and these children to wait?

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I seek one point of clarification from the script the Minister of State read. It surrounds the provision of private therapies. Towards the end of the Minister of State's script it states that she remains supportive of the use of available private capacity, and the funding of same. Obviously, that is attached to the proviso that those schools which have the chance of getting private therapists would need to be in the pilot. That goes back to the fundamental point in my opening remarks where I asked whether we can bring the date forward for the next tranche of schools. I would hope and anticipate that St. Killian's will be among those ten schools that will be brought forward. If we bring forward the date, that would give it the capacity in the interim to employ those private therapists, as it is trying to do. I urge the bringing forward of the deadline. It is imperative.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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In this place, we understand one needs good governance, schemes and structures but, as the parents have said, there used to be therapists. Until 2019, there were therapists in the school. What they also said, as did the staff and the children, is that they were given a commitment and told to go away and find the therapists. How do we find a way forward in relation to this? How do we make good the commitment that was made? I accept it was made in good faith, things happened, etc. Nonetheless, a commitment was made. We need to make good on that.

Clearly, there is no principled objection to using private capacity. Is the Minister of State saying that if the school is in the pilot, it can use private capacity? That being the case, will the school be in a position to get therapists as soon as it is included in the pilot, and will the Minister of State be able to provide funding to it?

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I take it the Deputies are all asking the same question, and "Yes" is the answer. I repeat that, in regard to the provision of private therapies for children with disabilities, the Government and I remain supportive of the use of available private capacity, and the funding of same. This is only possible for schools which are part of the pilot. We will name the ten additional schools by the end of October. The funding will be provided for private capacity to be used and I commit to that.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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October or January?

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It will be announced in October, but I can bring that forward.

My understanding from meeting the principal and the delegates who came before me was that they have something ready to roll and are able to access private capacity-----

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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So the Minister of State can hire from October-----

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Let us be clear. If they are successful in coming through the pilot at the end of October and I am supportive of funding private therapist capacity, I will request that it is brought forward, as opposed to waiting until October.