Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for being here to take this Topical Issue matter. It is a very important issue. I will outline what I feel is one of the most unfair and mean-spirited moves that has happened in my four and half years in the Dáil in terms of the State and its treatment of former healthcare workers. These people came back from retirement to answer Ireland's call during Covid. They put themselves on the front line and now they are being asked to pay back money I certainly feel they do not owe.

It might help if I outline what has happened. In April 2020, in the midst of Covid-19 taking hold in Ireland, the State through the Government put out a call, Ireland's call, to medical workers who might have been abroad and to retired HSE healthcare workers to come back and help us, that we needed help because it was going to be incredibly difficult and we needed them to get us through that period, and they did. At the time we had images of the first deaths from Covid, lockdowns, funerals loved ones could not attend, vaccination centres and healthcare workers falling ill. Despite all of this and despite everything that was going on, these retired healthcare workers, who were well into their 50s and some who were in their 60s, came back to put their lives on the line to help some of the most vulnerable people in Ireland and to help us through this. They were told at the time not to worry and that, if they came back and did their half week or half hours, it would not impact on their pension. In the normal course of events, if someone comes back from retirement and works for the HSE, the abatement kicks in. This impacts on a person's pension in that it is deducted from their pension, but these returning workers were told it would be okay and would not impact on their pension, and it did not. They worked their way through the pandemic.

When the pandemic ended, the health system remained under pressure and under stress, they were asked to stay on. We needed their help and experience, and so they stayed on when the pandemic ended in 2022. All went well until recent weeks when a lot of these workers started receiving correspondence from the HSE essentially thanking them for getting us through this and for everything they had done for us through the pandemic but that they now owed the State €5,000 or €6,000 or, in one case, up to €20,000. To me, this is completely unfair. It is a kick up the backside for people who put their lives at risk. Essentially the HSE was saying thanks for everything they had done but the abatement was kicking in and the waiver no longer applied.

I will put this into context. A waiver on the abatement applied in 2020, 2021 and 2022. After 2022, the pandemic ended, and they are now being told they owe money from the pension that was paid to them in 2023 and parts of 2024. It is ludicrous and ridiculous. The key point here is communication. If these workers had been communicated with, for example, in December 2022, that if they were to keep on working in 2023, the waiver would no longer apply, then they would have been informed that the abatement would come back in and they would have deductions from their pension. There was no such communication and no effort was made to communicate with these workers that they were going to be down money.

I am asking to get this sorted. The Government has just announced an extra budget of €8.3 billion. I do not know how many workers are impacted by this but it is not going to cost that much to thank them for everything they have done and to allow them hold on to their money. I suggest a little lead-in period whereby, after a couple of months, abatement would kick in from there on. Please do not make them pay back this money.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy O'Sullivan for raising this issue today, which I will take on behalf of the Minister for Health. As the Deputy has outlined, on 10 March 2020, the Department of Health informed the HSE that, following engagement with the then Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, approval was given under section 52(4) of the Public Service Pensions (Single Scheme and Other Provisions) Act 2012 for a temporary waiver of pension abatement for retired health workers who returned to work as critical front-line healthcare staff during the Covid-19 emergency. The purpose of this move was to ensure a sufficient body of staff with key skills was available during such an unprecedented and uncertain time and to support those who answered Ireland's call, who put their well-being on the line and who came out of retirement to do that.

The initial approval for the waiver of pension abatement was granted up to 30 June 2020. However, given the extraordinary circumstances of the pandemic and the uncertainty of its future course, the then Department of Public Expenditure and Reform granted periodic extensions to that temporary blanket waiver following regular reviews by the Department of Health and the HSE.

The temporary blanket waiver of pension abatement continued up to 31 March 2021, when the pension abatement policy for the health sector returned to normal in line with other sectors. This, I am informed, was communicated to the HSE on 15 January 2021 by the Department of Health via Circular 1/2021. I am informed that on 22 January 2021, the HSE, in turn, informed all relevant staff, including, but not limited to, all heads of HR in the CHOs, all HR managers in section 38 agencies, all group directors of nursing and midwifery and the director of the National Ambulance Service. I am also informed that in January 2021 communication to impacted workers happened. I appreciate that what the Deputy said here today is it did not happen. That is, however, the information I have with me. I am happy to discuss this further with the Deputy and to raise it directly with the Minister on his behalf.

I point out that in accordance with section 52(4) of the Public Service Pensions (Single Scheme and Other Provisions) Act 2012, the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform may still, at his or her discretion, waive the application of pension abatement subject to certain criteria: that the Minister is satisfied the retired person, or persons, with particular training and experience is required for a particular role, the retired person has the required training and experience and is suitable for employment and there are no other means to meet the requirement other than by the employment of the retired person. The normal rules of pension abatement are that waivers will only be granted in exceptional circumstances for a limited time.

It is crucial that the ongoing recruitment to our health service workforce continues. We cannot rely on retired workers. Exemptions from the principle of pension abatement are not a durable solution and we cannot rely on it in the long term. Following the conclusion of the temporary blanket waiver, requests by HSE for waivers of pension abatement have been considered on a case-by-case basis under normal pension abatement policy rules. These are the rules that apply right across the public service and Civil Service.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. I appreciate the response and her understanding of the issue. I also appreciate that she has given an undertaking to communicate to the Minister my frustration and the unfairness and mean-spiritedness I feel have taken place here. I will also, of course, do that myself.

I raise a few points. My understanding is that the waiver applied to 2021 and 2022. According to what the Minister of State said regarding the correspondence it went out in January 2021 concerning the ending of the waiver. That is interesting. I suppose it plays out in terms of the amounts of money involved for these people. As I said, these workers sacrificed themselves. When all of us were locking ourselves up out of harm's way, these people were putting themselves on the front line. The amount of money they are being asked to pay back is extraordinary.

It rubs salt on the wounds to say that it will be okay and that a payment plan will be devised and they can make these repayments over several years. They should not have to pay this money back at all. The most important thing in all this is that the Minister of State said an attempt was made to communicate with the HSE, the Departments and the relevant sections within Departments. I can tell her now with absolute certainty that the healthcare workers who came to me in my constituency, and those who have gone to other TDs in other constituencies as well, were not informed in any way, shape or form about this issue. They had no correspondence. They had no written correspondence or verbal information about this matter until 2024 when they were informed they had to pay back money. This is not good enough. For me, it merits a refund for anyone who has gone about paying this pension reduction money and an ending of this practice. It is absolutely ridiculous. It said that this refers to exceptional circumstances. We still have exceptional circumstances. We have a recruitment embargo. We have wards and units in hospitals that need to be staffed. These people are still doing that and we need them.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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To be clear, the temporary blanket waiver of pension abatement continued up until 31 March 2021. This was when the abatement policy for the healthcare sector returned to normal in line with other sectors. This was, as I understand it, communicated to the HSE on 15 January 2021. On 22 January 2021, only a few days later, I am informed that the HSE informed all relevant staff, including, but not limited to, all heads of HR in CHOs, all HR managers in section 38 agencies, all group directors of nursing and midwifery and the director of the National Ambulance Service.

I am informed that happened. The Deputy, though, has told me that the people he is dealing with are saying otherwise. On behalf of the Government, I take this opportunity to express our appreciation for the work carried out by our public health workers during the pandemic, including those individuals who returned from retirement to help their colleagues and the public when they most needed it. This cannot be overstated. We are absolutely so grateful for it. The temporary blanket waiver of pension abatement was introduced to recognise that at a time of great need. It was based on necessity. With the end of the emergency situation created by Covid-19, the waiver was ended.

I appreciate what the Deputy is saying about the need for us to grow our workforce year on year. He is right. As of the end of May 2024, there were 28,346 more staff working in our health service than there were at the beginning of this decade. The Minister for Health has approved the allocation of 2,268 new development posts for this year, which is outlined in the HSE pay and numbers strategy. Approval has also been given for the immediate recruitment of these posts. Recruitment, therefore, is happening. The Deputy raised this aspect as a secondary issue here. It is happening and we are continuing to invest in and grow our workforce in the health service.