Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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47. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he has had any discussions with the relevant Ministers or senior management at the Department of Health or the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in regard to addressing the existing pay parity that exists between workers in section 39 organisations and workers in HSE and section 38 organisations; if so, if any plans have been put in place to address this issue; the timeframe for implementing this plan; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [29491/24]

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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65. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform his views on whether the difference in pay and conditions between workers in section 38 and section 39 employments and those workers directly employed as public servants is making it more difficult to recruit and retain workers in key areas of public services where section 38 and section 39 agencies are the key providers of those services; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [29519/24]

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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68. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if either the Minister for Health or the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has requested additional funding to address the existing pay parity that exists between workers in section 39 organisations and workers in HSE and section 38 organisations since he started in his present role; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [29492/24]

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister had any discussions with the Minister, Ministers of State or senior management at the Department of Health or the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth with regard to addressing the existing pay disparity that exists between workers in section 39 organisations and workers employed directly by the HSE or section 38 organisations? If so, what plans are being put in place to address the issue and has the Minister a timeframe for doing so?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 47, 65 and 68 together.

The employees of agencies funded under section 38 of the Health Act 2004 are classified as public servants. They are subject to the standard salary scales for the health sector as well as having access, in the main, to a public service pension scheme. The employees are included in public service employment numbers.

Accordingly, staff employed by section 38 organisations benefit from the terms of public service agreements negotiated between the Government as an employer and trade unions and associations representing public servants. The current collective agreement, the public service agreement up to 2026, was reached earlier this year and provides pay adjustments of 9.25% over two and half years.

Section 39 organisations form part of the broader community and voluntary sector. They are grant-funded in line with section 39 of the Health Act 2004. It is the position that these organisations are not public bodies; rather, they are private and independently-run entities. The employees of these organisations are not public servants. As such, their terms and conditions of employment are a matter between each organisation and its employees.

I understand there is a process of engagement under way at the Workplace Relations Commission with the participation of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. I know this process is taking place. My Department has been involved in it, and I hope this is a process that can deliver an outcome that will be satisfactory to all parties involved in it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did the Minister group this with another question?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I am taking Questions Nos. 47, 65 and 68 together.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are going to run out of time, I am afraid, so both the Minister and the Deputies can contribute once. We will run out of time in two minutes.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Last October, unions representing section 39 organisations and other sections reached an agreement for addressing pay disparity between section 39 organisations, the HSE and section 38 organisations. A proposal was agreed acknowledging that the workers in these organisations deserve pay equality. That pay agreement has not been honoured. Some of the workers have only received up to 65% of the pay deal. A subsequent public sector pay deal has been implemented, meaning that public sector workers have received another increase from January, which means the pay disparity between the two types of organisation has widened again. It is as much as €4 to €5 per hour at the very basic level, up to the guts of €20 per hour at the higher level.

To give an example, the Irish Wheelchair Association in Cavan has had to reduce its service to a Covid-like service because it cannot employ people. It employs people and trains them and loses them after six months to the HSE or a section 38 organisation because they are getting paid much better and have much better conditions for doing exactly the same work. The Minister might say these are community and voluntary organisations but they are doing the work on behalf of the Government and the HSE. If these organisations did not exist, the HSE would have to do this work and it would be out a lot more money.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Just to underline the point, in my area, a lot of mental health services are delivered by section 39 organisations. In others, they might be delivered by the HSE. We discussed earlier the difficulty of recruiting people to CAMHS teams and the CDNTs. One of the additional problems compounding that difficulty is that those section 39 workers are on lesser pay and conditions than they would be if they were doing exactly the same job in a different area working directly for the HSE. That is crazy. They are doing the same job, they have the same qualifications, they are providing the same services and meeting the same need but they are on different - worse - pay and conditions. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out how it is going to be harder to recruit people to work in those services than in areas where they have better pay and conditions. There should be complete alignment when people are delivering public services, regardless of who the service provider is.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I was involved in this issue when it was dealt with in the Workplace Relations Commission last October. I was involved in the agreement that was reached to provide three different instalments to get up to 8%, with the final one due on 1 March 2024. My understanding is that all the staff employed in relevant organisations should have received their pay increases. That is my understanding. On foot of this matter being raised with me this evening, I will raise it with the Ministers, Deputies O'Gorman and Donnelly, and other Ministers who are involved in it.

I know that additional funding has been provided to allow for further grants to be provided to these organisations and I believed that had enabled increases to take place. That was my understanding. I am not the line Minister with responsibility for these areas but I will certainly follow up on this matter now with the Ministers involved in it after the points Deputies Tully and Boyd Barrett have made to me this evening.