Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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78. To ask the Minister for Finance his plans to reduce the cost of insurance; if he will support legislative proposals through the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill 2021 to ensure that reduced claims costs are passed onto insurance consumers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28559/24]

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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This is an issue I have raised numerous times. It is about insurance costs. The insurance industry continues to rip-off motorists and small businesses with high prices. Since 2020 the insurance industry has recorded sky-high profits while paying out dividends to their shareholders. For years the insurance industry called for reforms to reduce the cost of claims. This is what it got through the personal injury guidelines. In three years we still have not seen costs being reduced to the level the industry promised. In recent months we have seen costs increase.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I take this opportunity to wish the Minister, Deputy Chambers, all the best in his new role. So far he has proven to be a very understanding and kind boss and I hope that continues for the next few months of the Government.

I thank Deputy Doherty for the question. Insurance reform remains a key priority for the Government and the reform agenda has been set out via the action plan for insurance reform. As per the most recent action plan implementation report, published earlier this year, the vast bulk of the actions it contains are now either delivered or initiated. The importance the Government places on this issue is evidenced by the fact that implementation is overseen by a Cabinet committee sub-group on insurance reform chaired by the Tánaiste. Nevertheless, the Government is aware that certain groups continue to face difficulty in terms of affordability and availability of certain insurance lines. Accordingly, we continue to prioritise the delivery of the action plan, which will bring benefits to individuals, businesses and households alike.

Since assuming my current role, I have been in the process of meeting with all the main insurers in the Irish market, as well as a representative body of insurance, the Law Society, Brokers Ireland, business representative groups, those representative groups that speak on insurance reform more generally and consumer groups to discuss the key issue and to set out with most of them the Government’s quite clear expectation that savings arising from this whole-of-government reform agenda will be reflected via reduced premiums as well as increased availability of cover.

Many international insurers have noted the pace and scale of our reforms to date and point to Ireland as a positive example of Government action in this sector. We have recently seen a number of new entrants to the market with existing providers also expanding their risk appetite to underserved areas, with various sector representative reporting reductions in the rate being charged for liability cover. This question is specifically on the Bill proposed by Deputy Doherty and if it is agreeable I will answer that in a supplementary response.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is perfect. I am sure the Minister of State's new boss will be as good to him as his predecessors were. I will note that the Minister has not started in the same way as his predecessors did. When there was a clash with the ECOFIN meeting and the budget in the past his predecessor asked the Minister of State at the Department of Finance to travel to the ECOFIN meeting. The Minister of State was Michael D'Arcy at the time and he represented Ireland at the ECOFIN meeting while the Minister for Finance was here delivering the budget. Obviously the Minister of State's boss has decided to bring forward the budget and not have the Exchequer returns for September available to him. He was not the only predecessor of the Minister who asked Ministers of State to represent them. The Minister of State's predecessor, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, represented the Minister for Finance as late as last year at the ECOFIN meeting. This raises the question, as I asked the Minister earlier, as to why he did it.

I have a Bill before the Dáil which the Government supported but stalled for a year. It is now before the committee. I want a clear answer on whether the Minister supports the Bill. It would hold the insurance industry to account and force it to state whether it is passing on all of the savings to customers or whether it is pocketing them. I believe it is pocketing a portion of the savings.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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As Deputy Doherty knows, not every ECOFIN Council is the same. Agendas are different. We all know that we are at an acute time in the European legislative calendar. It is not fair to cite two previous examples. They are not all the same.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The previous example was on budget day.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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To address the clear point of the question, in 2021 Deputy Doherty introduced a Private Members' Bill, the Judicial Council (Amendment) Bill, to the Dáil. At its core, this would require insurers to provide information to the Central Bank of Ireland on the impact of personal injuries guidelines through amendment to the Judicial Council Act. On 30 May 2024 Deputy Doherty informed the Business Committee of his intent to move the Bill to the select committee for consideration. As the Deputy is aware, the Bill’s financial implications are being evaluated by the Oireachtas. I outlined at yesterday's committee meeting that no request for a money message has yet been received by the Department of Finance.

Notwithstanding this, the concerns the Government has in relation to the Bill include an overlap with data already collected by the national claims information database, in turn presenting potential costs and burdens on the industry, along with questions around the utility of the proposed information to be collected. Furthermore, the Bill's broader scope compared to similar legislation in England and Wales raises proportionality issues. It must also be noted that insurance costs in England and Wales have increased by approximately 17% in recent years.

Accordingly, given the NCID's well established role, additional reporting as proposed is seen as being redundant and counterproductive. In short, while there is merit to the impetus of the Bill, there are other means that could perhaps do this in a more effective manner. However, I am committed to working with the Deputy on those other means going forward. The processing of the Bill is a matter for the Oireachtas at this stage.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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To go back to the example I gave, which was from budget day in 2019 for budget 2020, the Minister for Finance delivered the budget and the junior Minister represented him at the ECOFIN meeting. It is not the case. Junior Ministers have represented the Minister for Finance. The Eurogroup meeting is the day before, with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. There is no reason he cannot be here. He attends informal ECOFIN meetings, but not the formal meetings in most cases.

When we were in the convention centre during the early days of the Covid-19 pandemic, the Minister told us there were other ways to do this. We have seen insurance prices increase. According to the CSO, which is only indicative - we have to wait another year for the Central Bank data - insurance prices have increased every month for the past ten months. We are hearing on the ground that is the case. I carried out a survey to which 700 or 800 people responded and 90% of them said their insurance prices have gone up. This is about holding the insurance companies to account. They have to live by a version of this law if they operate in the North or Britain. The same major insurance companies that operate here, operate in those jurisdictions. Why do we not hold them to account? We have legislation that can do no harm. It is about holding these companies to account and putting a downward pressure on prices, which is badly needed.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I absolutely agree with the Deputy that we need to hold them to account and that we need to see downward pressure on prices. The Deputy cited CSO figures. I note that CSO figures, when compared with those from 2019, have gone down exactly 39.6% in motor insurance alone. We have the NCID data, which is the most robust form, that shows a consistent decrease in the price of insurance since 2019. However, we saw a small uptick of 0.5%, an average of €7 per premium, at that latter end of last year.

The Deputy made a clear comparison with England and Wales. Where has the return been in the cost of premiums in England and Wales? They are going up in those jurisdictions. We want to see the insurance companies held to account. They will all be before the committee with the representative body. I have met every one of them in my first 12 weeks of office. I will meet them again in the next six to eight weeks. We have already invited them. I hope to start that in the next fortnight and I will continue to press. We accept their reasons, such as inflation, costs and footfall, but crucially, we can acknowledge that in the round, insurance costs have gone down drastically compared to a number of years ago. The data shows that. We want them to go down further. The level of availability has spread out a lot. That is not using anecdotal evidence. It is clear in the market.

There is an awful lot more to do and-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Hang on.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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An awful lot more to do and I very much want to work with the Deputy on this.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State is misleading.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I look forward to seeing the survey he said he concluded. Let us talk about that next week to see what we can do.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Only motor insurance has gone down. Public liability insurance has not gone down. We are talking about-----

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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We are just starting to see the returns now and it is going the right way.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State said it has gone down drastically.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Motor insurance has.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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We are moving now to-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is an insult to the companies-----

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy used CSO figures and 39% is drastic.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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We are moving now to Question No. 79-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is misleading.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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They are the figures the Deputy used himself.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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-----from Deputy Stanton who has waited a long time.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is completely and utterly misleading and companies will be annoyed about what the Minister of State said.