David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the office of the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this matter. I also thank the Minister of State for being here.

I had a bit of déjà vu recently when I visited the old technical school in Fermoy, which was built in 1931. I am sure the Minister of State knows about it as she has never been too far away from it. I started teaching there about 46 years ago when I was very young. The basement of the old school is now home to Fermoy Educate Together National School in Fermoy and I visited the place recently on an invitation. I was struck by the vibrancy, the professionalism and dedication of the staff and the atmosphere within the school. You can pick that up from actually going into a school. It is inclusive, fun and an excellent educational experience for all of the children, but there is a problem. It is extremely cramped. There are three classrooms which fall below the required size, which I am told is 18 sq. m. One of these is 25 sq. m. There are cramped classrooms for students and staff.

Fermoy was one of the areas surveyed in 2012 and 2013 under the patronage divesting process and there was sufficient parental demand to support change in school patronage. Since then, the school has grown in popularity among families in the town, with 87 children, I am told, now enrolled in the school and 96 being expected in September. Everyone was delighted when the school opened its doors in 2018 but it now needs attention. I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Foley, about it on a few occasions and I have asked her to visit the school, and I know some people from the Department have also been there.

The Educate Together school is in the basement and the ETB has rooms upstairs, which it needs and is making use of. There might be room to put in extra classrooms downstairs in the short term. The school got permission to have an autism class, but it is not suitable at all for that. I am sure the Minister of State realises that when dealing with autistic children, they need space and quiet. They have a little quiet space there but, really and truly, it needs attention. What is really needed in the long term for this school in Fermoy is a new building. It is very popular and is very much liked by the students and teachers, but they are literally on top of each other and it is in the basement. You can imagine how cramped and unsuitable the building is, but also how popular it is. The parents of Fermoy want this school and they want it to be progressed.

The Department has done marvellous work in other areas in building and expanding schools and putting in provision, but this is probably one of the poorest I have seen in a long time. I know there is a divesting programme and I know the Minister of State will tell me there was an agreement that the school should cap its size and all that stuff. I have seen all of the material and have been on this issue for a while. The reason I am raising it again this evening is to draw attention to it and to ask that the Department rolls up its sleeves, has a look at this and makes a commitment to improve matters for the students, the teachers, the staff, the parents and the community of Fermoy. They need that at the very least.

There are other issues here which I wish to draw to the attention of the Minister of State. You can imagine that, in a cramped condition like that, there are safety issues involved. There are fire safety and other issues which I believe we should be concerned about. It is not just the education of the children, and nowadays many primary schools have plenty of space, light and air, proper toilet facilities, and so on. That is not the case here. It really needs attention. The parents are screaming out for that. They are very reasonable but at this stage the school is so popular and we are going to see more and more children wanting to join the school but cannot because it is too cramped and too small. I await the Minister of State's response.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Deputy for raising this very important issue on Fermoy Educate Together National School in Cork East. I am answering this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley. I believe the Deputy has already pre-empted some of the response.

The Deputy most certainly is aware that Fermoy Educate Together National School is an ordinary mixed school in the town of Fermoy, County Cork. I take on board the point and the fact he said that it was built in 1931 and that the Deputy started teaching there a few years ago. The school had an enrolment in September 2022 of 52 pupils and in September 2023 of 85 pupils. The school is located in the Fermoy school planning area and there are currently 19 primary schools and three post-primary schools in this school planning area.

By way of background, Fermoy was one of the areas surveyed in 2012-13 under the patronage divesting process where there was sufficient parental demand supporting changes in school patronage. The areas surveyed were areas where demographics were not growing and therefore it was unlikely that a new multidenominational school would be established for demographic reasons. The clear policy on patronage divesting was to use existing educational infrastructure to facilitate provision of diversity in areas where there was no demographic imperative to establish new schools. The reason for this approach was the imperative - equally valid now as it was then - to focus the schools capital programme on the provision of additional mainstream and special educational school places at both primary and post-primary levels to ensure every pupil can access a school place.

As part of the process of identifying a suitable accommodation solution which would facilitate the establishment of the school, the Department liaised with Cork Education and Training Board. To facilitate the establishment of the new school, the ETB agreed to the co-location of the Educate Together school at the former technical school in Fermoy, together with some of the ETB's further education and training services.

Prior to the establishment of the new school in 2018 under the patronage divesting process, the Department and Educate Together as school patron agreed that given the accommodation available at the property and the need for the ETB to accommodate some further education and training services from the property, the school would be established as a four-classroom school and that the school would maintain this configuration in the accommodation in the former technical school unless an existing school building was freed up for use in the area. As part of this engagement, the Department outlined to the school patron the importance of enrolments being managed within the available accommodation in a sustainable way, and this would be communicated to the school board of management so that parents could be fully informed and to manage expectations. However, the school has taken the decision to accept a significant increase in enrolments, from 52 in the 2022-2023 school year to 85 in the 2023-2024 school year.

The role of the Department is to ensure all schools in an area can, between them, cater to school place requirements in that area. The broader position in the Fermoy school planning area is that demographics at primary level are declining and will steadily decrease for the foreseeable future.

I wish to bring to the Deputy's attention that officials in the Department of Education have been engaging with the school patron, that is, Educate Together, in respect of the current and future needs of the school. I take on board what Deputy Stanton has said on the numbers and the overcrowding. A technical visit by the Department was undertaken recently, the results of which are informing current discussions with the patron. The patron has been in contact with the ETB around accommodation arrangements in the building. The Department will also continue to liaise with the school and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, regarding any requirements for accommodation for children with special educational needs in the Fermoy school planning area.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank the Minister of State for her response which throws up a number of interesting points and questions. For instance, she stated that "the role of the Department is to ensure that all schools in the area can, between them, cater to school place requirements in that area". I am sure the Minister of State will agree with me that the wishes of parents must also be taken into account. If more and more parents want to move to a different model or patron, then the Department's role surely should be to facilitate that as well. She also stated that "the broader position in the Fermoy school planning area is that demographics at primary level are declining". They are not declining in this school but rather going the other way. The parents are demanding and asking for this. They want their children to experience the Educate Together model. That is what they are going for. It is really important we look at this. It is in a basement of a school and it is very cramped.

As for children with special needs, I see, in the very last line of the Minister of State's response, that the "Department will also continue to liaise with the school and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, regarding any requirements for accommodation for children with special educational needs in the Fermoy school planning area". The parents want to send their children to this particular school. As I said in my earlier remarks, it is an excellent school and one which the parents like. I visited it myself and I could pick up the professionalism and care of the teachers, as well as the positive atmosphere of the school. One can imagine what the school would be like if it was in a proper building, but it is not. The school is in a very cramped, overcrowded and old building which dates back to 1931. It is in the basement of that building, which is even worse.

I ask the Minister of State to talk to her colleague, the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley, in this regard. I have spoken and written to her about this issue before. All we are getting by way of response here is the words "engage" and "liaise", but I want to see action. I want to see the Department come up with a plan here. Ideally, in the long term, I want to see a new school on the greenfield site but in the short term, I want a reconfiguration of where the school is. There is space outside for two temporary rooms to be put in place. There may be other solutions in the Fermoy area that could also be taken into account. I ask the Minister of State to bear in mind that this is a growing school with growing demand and that this is what parents want. It is incumbent on the Department and the Government to ensure they are facilitated.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I thank Deputy Stanton for raising the issue of Fermoy Educate Together school. Individual school authorities are responsible in the first instance for ensuring the safety and welfare of children and others in their care. The configuration of classes and the deployment of classroom teachers are organised at local school level. The Department's guidance to schools is that the number of pupils in any class is kept as low as possible, taking all relevant contextual factors into account - for example, classroom accommodation and fluctuating enrolments.

I thank Deputy Stanton again for giving me the opportunity to outline the Department of Education's position in this regard. As I said, the Department has ongoing engagement with the school patron in relation to the accommodation needs of the school. A technical visit was held recently, the results of which are informing current discussions with the patron. The patron has been in contact with the ETB around accommodation arrangements in the building. I will certainly bring back the Deputy's concerns to the Minister.

Educate Together schools are very popular all over the country. I understand that when the school was put in place in 2018, as is set out in the overall report, there were terms and conditions. However, we are six years further on and I will certainly bring his concerns to the Minister, Deputy Foley.