Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this issue again and for permitting me to raise it on many occasions in the past. I also thank Minister of State from coming into the House to reply. I thank him for his work since his appointment in attempting to resolve this particular issue. Despite his best efforts, the Castletown House saga continues. It is a bit like the "Forsyte Saga", a programme on television once upon a time. Every time a solution is identified, there is equally an obstacle that creates a problem.

One of the issues at the at the present time is as follows. The Minister of State rightly attempted to negotiate with the owner of adjoining lands who has an interest in the proceedings here. In response to that, the landowner decided to put a gateway across the previously used access from the M4, which was a clear indication of what was likely to happen in the future.

That gateway was not put there for nothing; it is there for a particular purpose. We all observe the rights of private and public landowners, property owners, homeowners, etc., at all times. There is no attempt here to usurp those rights. What is at risk is this. In my opinion, the State rightly spent €25 million in recent years to facilitate the works at Castletown House. It was unwise of the State to spend that kind of money if it was not happy that access would be guaranteed. What is the sense in that? We would have to fly in like they did during the Berlin standoff that took place many years ago, when the only way into the city was by aeroplane.

This a matter involves the people of Celbridge, members of the general public who use Castletown estate for recreation, those who have an interest in works of art or historical houses and the individuals who have worked in Castletown House. Some of their descendants are still around. I remember them well from when they worked in Castletown House. The situation has to be resolved and cannot go on forever. The State cannot allow itself to be dictated to by an adjoining equal tenant or property owner. The State has rights as well. The State has the right to visit and revisit its property and the property of the public. It should join those rights with the general public, members of which should be able to go to and from the estate without having their rights tested and challenged.

There were a number of incidents there in recent times, although I do not propose to go into them here. These were tragic incidents as well and they have been brought to the fore by virtue of the circumstances that prevail at the location. I ask the Minister of State at this stage to think really seriously about legal action to determine the State’s right to visit its property as well as to allow the public, with the permission of the State, to visit that property as well so it can enjoy the facilities that are available there. This is supported by all the public representatives and all the newly elected councillors to that area who are well versed on the subject. All support is very welcome. The Minister of State needs to know that he has the support of the public representatives in attempting to determine an outcome.

The last point I want to make is this. One of the outcomes that was suggested was that the old road that goes onto the Main Street in Celbridge could be used as an access point in the future. It is not so. As the Ceann Comhairle will well know, the traffic situation has changed dramatically in the past 250 or 300 years. Traffic has increased using the old road is not an option.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Minister of State for being here to deal with this matter.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Once again, I thank my esteemed colleague, Deputy Durkan, for his long-standing, genuine and heartfelt interest in Castletown House and estate. As I have said previously, it is something on which the Deputy has worked over a considerable period through our parliamentary system, and he has dealt with it publicly as well.

I take this opportunity thank all members of the Castletown House and estate stakeholders working group, of which Deputy Durkan and his fellow public representatives are members. This working group was initiated by my predecessor. I have had three meetings to date on this matter, but I have been in this role for a relatively short period. I want to resolve it. I want to find a proper and normal way to get Castletown estate open to the public. An element of that is getting the staff back in. There is a number of moving parts. It is not straightforward, and Deputy Durkan will be aware of that. I very much value the input of the working group. Anything I have done I have done with input from the working group and public representatives in order to make sure that everyone is aware of what I am doing.

As I have stated previously, the owners of the M4 lands erected a gate across the entrance of the boundary between the section of the privately owned road, the access further up by the local authority. This has been used by the visitors to Castletown House and the staff to access the estate by means of a road and a temporary car park, which was previously used by the OPW under licence with the previous owner. However, the placing of a gate on a private land is not a matter over which the OPW has any control. The owner of the lands is entitled to control access to lands as it sees fit, subject to compliance with the planning process.

I have a couple of points to make. I made a commitment to the working group at the previous meeting that I would approach the landowners, which I have done, and that I would further engage with them, which I am doing. I agreed that once I had met with the landowners, I would re-engage with the working group. That was the agreement for the structure.

I have a couple of comments to make in respect of the specific point the Deputy raised. In fairness, he has been very consistent. This is a matter about which he feels strongly. I want to deal with two components. First, as the Deputy will be aware, the OPW sought legal advice about the right of way over the lands formally managed under licence. As entry to and over lands was by permission, no such rights have accrued and therefore it cannot enforce a right of way by injunction or any other means over these privately owned lands. That is the legal advice we have received.

We are to remain engaged with the working group. The local community has requested that Kildare County Council consider recognising right of way over these lands, but I am not aware of its progress to date. Kildare County Council, with whom I have no doubt Deputy Durkan is in touch, will be best to provide an update on that. At the most recent meeting with the working group, I gave a commitment that I would meet with Kildare County Council about the overall situation at Castletown estate. I am in the process of arranging this. At the meeting to which I refer, I stated that I would engage further with the landowners and that we would then hold a meeting. I provided a health and safety risk assessment, which was carried out by a qualified firm on a limited, time-bound access for a small number of vehicles on Lime Avenue. That was to get staff back in. I provided that for the consideration of the working group. Part of the OPW’s policy is to seek to reunite the historic Castletown demesne with the house and lands in the care of the State. It has had several opportunities to purchase the lands. More recently, it was outbid on the open market value.

On the particular point Deputy Durkan raises, I have further work to do. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me latitude. Deputy Durkan is probably referring to the commencement order for certain heritage related provisions under the Historic and Archaeological Heritage and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2023. That legislation commenced on 31 May, so it has just commenced. My officials have been in contact with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage about any implications relating to the OPW and Castletown House. I again gave a commitment to follow up on this. We have been advised that section 188 of the Act sets out the powers of which relevant authorities, including the Office of Public Works, can avail in order to perform its substantial functions under the Act. However, as section 188(1) sets out, the powers of further relevant authorities under this section can only come into effect when such powers are considered necessary for the relevant authorities to fulfil other functions specified under the Act. Therefore, the commencement of section 188 alone would not automatically permit the Office of Public Works to retain access to the property in question through privately owned land. Section 188 would only be of assistance if other provisions of the Act had been commenced, in particular provisions relating to the register of national monuments as defined in the Act and if Castletown House was made subject to those provisions.

It is all a matter of process. The necessary administrative measures to enable commencing the Act on a phased basis are under way. I realise that substantial work is required to commence the provisions of the Act, particularly those pertaining to the register of national monuments. It is unlikely to commence immediately. We are told that powers, including by way of compulsory purchase order, are provided for in the Act. Again, however, Castletown House would have to be entered into the registry of monuments.

I know I am relying on the indulgence and patience of the Ceann Comhairle. I want to go through a process. At the most recent meeting, I committed: first, to continue to engage with the landowners; second, that I would look at Batty Langley Lodge as an access point for staff; third, to follow up with Kildare County Council; fourth, to look at the feedback on the proposal I put out on the health and safety risk assessment regarding temporary access only for staff; and, fifth, to look at the other Act to see what might be available to us in the context of securing right of access.

I want to stick with process but I very much take on board the Deputy's points, so I await his observations.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for going to the efforts he has gone to and I again thank the Ceann Comhairle for facilitating this debate. I understand the problem but, unfortunately, some of us have been around Castletown Estate when it was in its previous ownership, in Connolly-Carew's time. We got to know all the people who worked on the estate and we listened to their queries over a number of years. We got along with them and they are decent, nice people. There is no need for anybody to impose a restriction on the people who have enjoyed the facilities at Castletown all their lives, particularly given the State now owns 230 acres of the lands and the house. The State is now an equal landowner. If two private landowners were in dispute about a right of way, it would have been resolved long ago, and it would have to be resolved.

Reference was made to another case in the country, in County Sligo, where a private landowner had always owned the property. These two cases are not analogous at all. He or his predecessor had always owned the property. In this case, however, there are two independent landowners, namely, the State and a private landowner. The question has to be asked as to who wins the case. In the heel of the hunt, it will have to be the right of the State to go to and from its property and not to skulk around corners surreptitiously trying to gain access in a way that will be allowed by a third party. That is not something we readily accede to in County Kildare or elsewhere in the country.

I compliment the Minister of State on his efforts to date, but we are not going away and the matter is not going to go away. We respectfully request that the State and its guests be entitled to go to and from the property without impedance or restriction and that the status quo be restored in that regard.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy and ask the Minister of State to respond briefly. We have gone over time.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I again thank the Deputy. I reiterate I want to stick with process, as I agreed with the working group and the Deputy. We will continue to speak to the landowners, look at Batty Langley Lodge for temporary access for staff, examine the legal case the Deputy made about the right of access and consider the Kildare campus. I am exploring every conceivable avenue to work with everyone to find a resolution to this. We all want the estate to be reopened and we are very conscious of the issues that are arising. I want to continue to work in a collaborative way with everyone to seek a resolution and I will work with the Department and the OPW to achieve that. I look forward to the next meeting of the working group for further updates.