Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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13. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection the extent to which she expects to examine the possibility of allowing pro rata pensions for those that currently have insufficient contributions to qualify; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [25393/24]

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This question relates to an old bugbear of mine with the number of people who fall short of the necessary contributions due to a variety of circumstances, such as women who are spouses of self-employed people, where the Department does not always allow a partnership to exist in determining the eligibility for an insurance-based pension, and where people have a shortage of contributions in any event and the number of those contributions have reduced their entitlements, if they have any at all.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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My Department makes several payments to people over the age of 66.  One of these is the State pension contributory, which has a number of qualifying criteria, including having a minimum of 520 paid social insurance contributions.  Where a person meets the qualifying criteria, the rate of payment is calculated based on the number of contributions paid and credited. As the actuarial value of the State pension contributory is currently estimated at approximately €380,000, it is reasonable to require people claiming a contributory pension to have made at least 520 paid contributions over the term of their working life to qualify for a payment.

Last year, legislation was enacted to introduce a series of landmark reforms to the State pension system in response to the recommendations from the Pensions Commission. A key measure was the introduction of a flexible pension system.  This new system is about providing people with choice.  People will still be able to retire at 66 and draw down their pension as they always have.  Additionally, they may now choose to defer claiming their State pension contributory up to the age of 70 and receive an actuarially based increase in their weekly payment rate. People can decide for themselves what best suits their needs and circumstances.  For example, a person who reaches age 66 who does not have sufficient contributions to qualify for a contributory State pension may be able to use this period to continue to work to establish entitlement or increase his or her level of payment. Where a person does not satisfy the conditions to qualify for the contributory pension or qualifies for less than the maximum rate, he or she may instead qualify for the means tested non-contributory pension with a maximum payment equivalent to 95% of the contributory rate. I hope this clarifies the matter.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It does not actually. In a short sojourn in that Department, I made an attempt a number of times to change the situation whereby people had an entitlement because they had an average of more than 21 contributions in a year and qualified for a pension, and people with fewer than 21 contributions qualified for no pension. I contended that it was unconstitutional despite the fact that Departments always make these decisions and arbitrarily decided that there is a cut-off point. I know the Minister has been looking at this. I think it bears another examination. They are

putting together all their contributions, caring for elderly parents and so on, coming out of the workforce and paid employment, and contributing their lives to other people in a particular way. I ask that the Minister look at this again and find out how many people in the last 12 months, for example, have been refused on such a basis.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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To be fair, we have made changes. We have the long-term carer's contribution scheme. That will make it easier for long-term carers of an incapacitated person or people to qualify for the State pension. If someone has been caring for somebody for 20 years or more, the credits will be allowed towards their pension. I think that is an improvement. There are the family caring periods. There have been many changes over the years to try to help people to qualify for the State pension. The basis is that you have to have the equivalent of ten years' work, which is 520 contributions. Over a possible 50-year working life, I do not think it is unreasonable to expect somebody to have those ten years. All of these things are always being looked at and revised. In fairness, we have made many changes to pensions and I am bringing in the auto-enrolment which I think will be important.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I agree that the Minister has made many important improvements, but there is always room for more, particularly in cases where there is an obvious want or deficiency in the system that does not meet a particular situation. Might the Minister look at the possible costs of having a pro rata pension made available to all persons based on their level of contributions and without reference to the necessity to have 500 contributions in a particular period?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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If you go below the 520 contributions, the actual pension you would get would be in the region of just over €30. That is how it works. There is always room for improvement. There is no doubt about that. I agree with Deputy Durkan on that. I have brought in many improvements to the pension system. I have kept the pension age at 66 and allowed the flexibility for people to work to 70. They can build up those credits if they are short, so they can get a minimum pension and the pension for long-term carers, which is important. Many people have applied for that. I am delighted because there are many long-term carers. The Deputy is right that women gave up their lives to look after a child who may have severe disabilities. The child could have passed on. The women were ready for retirement and suddenly they had nothing. That was wrong. That has changed. I will leave it at that. We will let the Topical Issue debate commence.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would be willing to allow a bit of flexibility if the Minister was okay with it and wanted to give a timeline on Question No. 16.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Here is the Minister of State. Saved by the bell.