Dáil debates

Wednesday, 22 February 2023

12:42 pm

Photo of Hildegarde NaughtonHildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move:

"It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders or yesterday's Order of Business, the arrangements for today's business shall be modified

as follows: (a) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the Motion re Anniversary of the Invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation:
(i) the motion shall be taken immediately following oral Parliamentary Questions to the Taoiseach and shall be followed by the Sos;

(ii) the order of speaking and allocation of time shall be as follows:
- opening speech by a Minister or Minister of State - ten minutes;

- speech by representative of Sinn Féin - ten minutes;

- speeches by representatives of the Labour Party, Social Democrats, People-Before-Profit-Solidarity, the Regional Group, the Rural Independent Group

and the Independent Group - five minutes per party or group; and

- a speech in response by a Minister or Minister of State - five minutes;
(iii) and members may share time; and
(b) the proceedings on the Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022 shall, if not previously concluded, stand adjourned at 9.25 p.m."

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Pringle to speak as he wishes to raise a point.

Photo of Thomas PringleThomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In respect of the motion on the war in Ukraine, this was discussed at the Business Committee last week and it was agreed that it would be put back to be considered by this week's Business Committee. This is coming completely out of the blue without any consultation with members of the Business Committee. We have not seen a motion and there is no to text in respect of that. I submitted amendments to the previous motion that was put forward. It appears that this is a Government motion. What is the situation? We do not even have the wording for this motion and we are expected to adopt it. That is just completely wrong. This is a cack-handed way for the Government to handle this.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A motion was circulated, which was drafted by the Department of Foreign Affairs. My clear understanding from the Business Committee was that an attempt would be made to draft a motion which could obtain the consensus and support of all sides of the House. That is was what was agreed by the Business Committee. Rather than doing, we now have a Government motion on which we do not have the wording. I do not understand what has happened. There was an attempt to get consensus, to have the agreement of the House on a motion, and that appears to have been done away with now. There needs to be clarification as to what happened to that attempt. Where do we go from here?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that the Government motion has just been circulated to all Members.

Photo of Thomas PringleThomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it has not.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand it has. I call Deputy Mattie McGrath and I will return to Deputy Pringle if necessary.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I missed the Business Committee meeting last Thursday but the account I heard was that the matter would be discussed at this week's meeting, with the hope of getting unanimous agreement on it. This is the first I or our group have heard of this, with it being presented on the floor of the House like this, and I object to that.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is the Government trying to pull a fast one. Some of us will be in the Chamber for the entire time between now and when that debate starts. If we and many of the leaders are here, how on earth can we try to deal with Taoiseach's Questions and immediately after that, deal with a motion we have not seen and on which we will have no opportunity to submit amendments? That is completely pulling a fast one. It is undemocratic and is gameplaying by the Government. It should withdraw this motion and put it back in, as per the arrangements, which is for it to go through the Business Committee and, if necessary, be dealt with tomorrow.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to express my disappointment at the way this is being handled by Government. As it happens, the Labour Party was happy to sign up to the original draft of the motion circulated to us by Government. We believe it is very important that all of us, on a cross-party basis, express solidarity with the people of Ukraine in the way that was originally intended. When that motion was not agreed, we understood a new version might be circulated for statements tomorrow. This announcement was made by the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, just as that motion was being circulated to us. My email states that it came in at 12.42 p.m., which was five minutes ago. There is new wording which we have not seen. Many of us are due to speak in this House between now and when that motion is due to be taken. It is very unfortunate that we would see this matter being handed in such a divisive way. This is something on which we should all be able to come together to express solidarity. As other have, I ask the Taoiseach and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, to withdraw the motion and bring it back for discussion tomorrow, which indeed is closer to the crucial and terrible one year anniversary on Friday. That would have been a better way to have dealt with this, rather than to try to infiltrate and shoehorn it into today's business schedule, which is fairly packed. That is not appropriate. It would have been better to do it tomorrow, as we had understood it would be.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I believe Deputy Pringle wishes to make some point of clarification.

Photo of Thomas PringleThomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To clarify, the motion was circulated at 12.43 p.m. as the discussion was taking place. How can a motion be circulated to members in that way?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate it is short notice and that it is not best practice. There was an incorporeal Cabinet meeting this morning to sign off on the motion. There was an attempt, I understand, at the Business Committee to agree an all-party motion. That was not possible because some members wanted to include language that was not in our view fully supportive of Ukraine. This matter was discussed at Cabinet and there not being the possibility of agreeing an all-party motion because of the views of certain members, which they are entitled to hold, the Government decided to put down its own motion. It is very short. It can be read in a minute or two and there will be plenty of time for Members to do that before we have the discussion later on today. The Government is free to put down its own motions.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no time to put down amendments.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We do not stop other parties putting down motions and Private Members' Bills and the Government is free to put in a motion if it so wishes.

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have to put them in three days before.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just to be very clear, if anybody wants to table an amendment they can do so-----

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be in here for Taoiseach's Questions.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

----between now and when the matter is taken, or in their contribution they can propose an amendment. I remind Members that there are 77,000 Ukrainian people resident in this country. I believe they would like to see us all being able to unite around a common cause. I call Deputy McDonald.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I entirely agree with the Ceann Comhairle and I believe it is very important that we have a unity of purpose on this matter.

I have not seen the wording of the motion. I anticipate that we can find words that accommodate the vast majority, if not all, Deputies. However, if this is a serious matter, worthy of effort not to split the House, why this sudden rush for today? As Deputy Bacik correctly said, tomorrow is in fact closer to the awful anniversary of Putin's criminal invasion. Surely we are entitled to time to digest and consider the motion and to prepare our remarks, if this is to be a serious effort by the House and not simply box ticking, which I would find most regrettable. I suggest to the Taoiseach, now that we have the motion, that we should take the matter tomorrow and give people sufficient and adequate time to prepare. It is only reasonable, I would have thought, and it is an orderly way for the Government to do its business.

12:52 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As Chair of the Business Committee, I was not in a position to attend last week's meeting and Deputy Naughten chaired it. However, my very clear understanding was that while attempts were made to get agreement on the motion, which I thought very balanced in how it had been prepared, such agreement was not possible. Notwithstanding the short time that this matter has been given for people to concentrate on it, I assume the Government proceeded on the basis of what happened last week.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For clarity, how is it this matter was not raised on the Order of Business yesterday?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not-----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a different type of intervention and it is not the way to do business. Every Member in this House deserves notice and the respect to get the adequate work done in order that this is a serious and appropriate reflection and joint enterprise on this awful anniversary of the slaughter and mayhem the Ukrainian people face.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In fairness to the secretariat of the Business Committee, they ring us all the time, but they obviously did not have time today. Why was it not put on to the Order of Business? We got numerous calls from the secretariat with regard to the Order of Business yesterday. There were at least three changes. This is a sleight of hand by the Government. Our group will certainly not support this now. We need a bit of respect and time, as an Opposition group, to see the motion and get some understanding of it, or have dialogue with the secretariat. I am not blaming the secretariat; it is not its fault. We always have a back and forth. It is appreciated and we do our best to facilitate. This is not acceptable, by a long shot.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I express, in strong terms, my disappointment and concern at the way this has been done. For those of us who signed up in good faith to the original text of the motion - I have now read the Government's proposed motion that just came through - it is most inappropriate that there is such a short timeframe for Opposition leaders to prepare significant enough speeches of five or ten minutes. This is most unfair and it is most unfortunate to do this about such considerably important issues. As the Ceann Comhairle said, there are so many Ukrainian citizens here who have an entitlement to expect a reasoned, compassionate and thoughtful debate on this important motion, as we mark the anniversary of this brutal invasion by Putin of a democratic, sovereign country in Europe. It is very unfortunate it is being done in this way and I do not see why it cannot be done tomorrow, as was originally intended. My office had heard, as I had when I came in here for Leaders' Questions, that it would be tomorrow.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate this is not ideal, but the assessment and briefing the Ceann Comhairle got is correct.

Photo of Thomas PringleThomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it is not.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Efforts were made to agree an all-party motion. That was not possible. The Government discussed the matter on Tuesday-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and the proposal the Tánaiste has put forward. He has put forward a motion.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is just not accurate.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What you said, a Cheann Comhairle, was accurate.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Ceann Comhairle was not there. How can you know if you were not there, a Cheann Comhairle? You were not there.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, do not interrupt the Taoiseach.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My understanding is the same as yours, a Cheann Comhairle. Efforts were made at the Business Committee to agree an all-party motion. That was not possible. As a result, were going to have a moment of silence and no motion? We, as a Government, did not think that was an adequate response and lacked true solidarity with the people of Ukraine, those living there and those living here, and we put down this motion. It may take 45 seconds or a minute to read. Members have time to read it. They have time to put down motions and amendments, if they want, but a moment of silence is not enough and there should be-----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fair------

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----a motion.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government should table it tomorrow.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If there has to be a vote on it, so be it.

Photo of Thomas PringleThomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A point of information has to be put forward. With all due respect to you, a Cheann Comhairle, and to your interpretation of what happened at the meeting, you were not there. Through no fault of your own, you were not there. That is not the interpretation of what happened at the meeting last week. I was there as were other Members were there. Amendments were put forward to the wording of the motion. A suggestion was made that we could have a minute's silence, rather than a motion that would be acceptable to everybody. It was agreed that it would be considered, that we would take it away and look at it and come back and agree what could be done. None of that has happened. This has come in from the Government today. The reason it is happening today is clear. The voting block is on today and the Government wants to make sure there are no Members about tomorrow. That is why it is not happening tomorrow.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hopefully, we can have the minute's silence tomorrow.

Photo of Hildegarde NaughtonHildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Efforts were made at the Business Committee to try to get a cross-party consensus on the wording on a motion to support the people of Ukraine. Unfortunately, that was not possible and Cabinet decided to put forward our own Government motion to show our support. I hope that will get the support of the House-----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government should have announced that yesterday.

Question put: "That the business proposal be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 55; Staon, 0.


Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hildegarde Naughton and Marc Ó Cathasaigh; Níl, Deputies Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Mattie McGrath.

Colm Brophy, Richard Bruton, Colm Burke, Mary Butler, Jackie Cahill, Dara Calleary, Ciarán Cannon, Joe Carey, Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, Jack Chambers, Niall Collins, Patrick Costello, Simon Coveney, Barry Cowen, Cathal Crowe, Alan Dillon, Stephen Donnelly, Paschal Donohoe, Francis Noel Duffy, Bernard Durkan, Alan Farrell, Charles Flanagan, Seán Fleming, Seán Haughey, Martin Heydon, Emer Higgins, Neasa Hourigan, Heather Humphreys, John Lahart, Brian Leddin, Catherine Martin, Micheál Martin, Steven Matthews, Paul McAuliffe, Charlie McConalogue, Michael McGrath, Joe McHugh, Aindrias Moynihan, Michael Moynihan, Hildegarde Naughton, Malcolm Noonan, Darragh O'Brien, Joe O'Brien, Jim O'Callaghan, James O'Connor, Kieran O'Donnell, Patrick O'Donovan, Fergus O'Dowd, Roderic O'Gorman, Christopher O'Sullivan, Pádraig O'Sullivan, Marc Ó Cathasaigh, Éamon Ó Cuív, John Paul Phelan, Anne Rabbitte, Neale Richmond, Michael Ring, Eamon Ryan, Niamh Smyth, Ossian Smyth, David Stanton, Robert Troy, Leo Varadkar.

Níl

Ivana Bacik, Mick Barry, Cathal Berry, Richard Boyd Barrett, John Brady, Martin Browne, Pat Buckley, Holly Cairns, Sorca Clarke, Joan Collins, Michael Collins, Catherine Connolly, Rose Conway-Walsh, Réada Cronin, Seán Crowe, David Cullinane, Pa Daly, Pearse Doherty, Paul Donnelly, Kathleen Funchion, Gary Gannon, Thomas Gould, Johnny Guirke, Danny Healy-Rae, Michael Healy-Rae, Brendan Howlin, Gino Kenny, Claire Kerrane, Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, Mary Lou McDonald, Mattie McGrath, Michael McNamara, Denise Mitchell, Imelda Munster, Verona Murphy, Gerald Nash, Denis Naughten, Carol Nolan, Cian O'Callaghan, Richard O'Donoghue, Louise O'Reilly, Darren O'Rourke, Eoin Ó Broin, Ruairi Ó Murchú, Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Thomas Pringle, Maurice Quinlivan, Patricia Ryan, Seán Sherlock, Bríd Smith, Brian Stanley, Peadar Tóibín, Mark Ward, Jennifer Whitmore.

Question declared carried.