Dáil debates
Wednesday, 9 February 2022
Ceisteanna ar Reachtaíocht a Gealladh - Questions on Promised Legislation
12:32 pm
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A survey conducted by SIPTU has found that 41% of childcare professionals are actively seeking a job in another sector. It also found that childcare managers have indicated major difficulties in the recruitment of staff. This should not come as a shock to the Government because early years professionals are very poorly paid and their conditions are in need of massive improvement. Indeed, the vast majority of childcare workers struggle to make ends meet. They regularly do work for which they are not paid and, astonishingly, only 10% have paid maternity leave. Their skill, professionalism, expertise and the contribution they make to the forming and education of young children are invaluable. Their pay and conditions have to be addressed as a matter of urgency. Staffing has gone beyond the crisis point in the sector. Fair pay scales and a career path for early years professionals are urgently needed. When will this happen?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the budget we took a major step forward in providing funding to deal with pay and conditions within the early childcare sector. I agree that career pathways have to be developed in early education and early childcare. The funding has increased dramatically, from approximately €69 million to €207 million through to 2023, to facilitate that. A joint labour committee has been formed and there will be engagement between employers and trade unions. The trade unions will be well aware of the provision. I want the mechanisms of the joint labour committee to get going so we can get this stage of investment in childcare organised by the autumn, and then in the budget do even more for childcare in terms of affordability, access and provision.
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Why has there been such a serious delay in legislating to provide for safe access zones around healthcare providers and maternity hospitals where abortions are carried out? This legislation has long been promised by the Government. Indeed, the then Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, promised it back in 2018 when we were debating the abortion legislation. A Private Members' Bill to provide for safe access zones to protect women and healthcare staff will be debated on Committee Stage in Government time in the Seanad tomorrow. Why will the Government not simply bring that legislation further? I am glad it is giving Government time for it, but I understand from the spring legislative programme that the Government still intends to bring forward its own legislation rather than allowing this Private Members' Bill, which has cross-party support and the support of doctors, healthcare providers, Together for Safety and other advocacy groups, to be brought forward. There is an extremely troubling report from Together for Safety that anti-choice activists have been obtaining information about dates and times of appointments for terminations so they can harass women.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Your time is up, Deputy.
Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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This is a very serious report and I again raise the urgency of providing this important legislation to protect women and healthcare providers.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising an important issue. What she has just raised is very disturbing. The legislation for safe access zones is listed for priority drafting and we have facilitated the Bill the Deputy referred to in terms of its progression.
Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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The programme for Government commits to establishing a citizens' assembly on drug use. It is an incredibly important issue that requires reform. We must take a holistic approach in tackling the issue of drugs in Ireland. Addiction requires a health-based approach, and the focus should be on harm reduction and prevention and, ultimately, saving lives. Best practice, such as the Portuguese model, suggests that decriminalising possession of small amounts for personal use is very effective. We must reform our drug policy and ensure it focuses on individuals and communities while holding criminality to account. The citizens' assembly on biodiversity is very welcome, but the Government is also launching an assembly on the Dublin mayor. Surely drug use is a much more pressing issue that is affecting countless communities and families. Where is the citizens' assembly on drug use and why is it not being prioritised?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said yesterday, the agreement of the three parties in the programme for Government was that we would commence a number of citizens' assemblies. Due to Covid-19 we were not in a position to do that. In terms of two of the commitments, one has been established on biodiversity, which is a crisis, and likewise with regard to the Dublin mayor, which had been agreed. As regards drugs policy, it is our view that we will have a citizens' assembly in the latter part of this year. However, that does not mean there is nothing happening with drugs policy. It is an urgent and serious issue that has to be dealt with in the context of a community-up approach, with multidisciplinary supports going into the communities most affected, along with a health-based approach. In any event, we are very seized of the serious situation in many communities as a result of drug abuse.
Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I wish to raise the serious consequences for everybody in respect of cancer care in Ireland. Obviously, because of the pandemic and its consequences, cancer care in the context of diagnosis, early treatment and early intervention has been severely curtailed. In fact, according to some experts on cancer, there could be a five- to ten-year tailback in early intervention. This is very serious for those who want to get screened and so forth. What is this Administration doing at present to address those issues in cancer care?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is correct that Covid-19 has had a very significant impact in terms of delayed diagnoses. Many activities that would have been taking place were suspended, particularly during severe surges of the Omicron, Delta and previous variants. It has had a serious impact with regard to delayed diagnoses and on waiting lists. In response to Covid-19 up to €350 million has been allocated for waiting times and waiting lists. Also, additional funding has been allocated to the national cancer strategy for increasing resources to enable hospitals and clinicians to deal with the increased workload that undoubtedly exists now.
12:42 pm
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and representatives of Bord Bia met the pig producers of Ireland last week. Put simply, the price of meal has gone up by 30 cent and the price of bacon is down by 40 cent. That equates to losses of roughly €38 per sow. There is a perfect storm here as these businesses cannot get work permits. Countries like France, Poland, Denmark and Holland have introduced schemes to help their pig industries so why can we not do so here? I said this to the Government yesterday. Why do we have to wait until this industry is wiped out? A perfect storm has been created by inflation and a lack of action from the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, and his Department.
Other countries in the EU have acted on this and there are Brexit funds and Covid-19 payments among the many ways of supporting this industry during this crisis. Otherwise we will not have a pig industry. We were told that some of these people openly cried at the meeting, telling how they were in pig farming all their life but will have to give it up because it is not viable. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister to take action on this? He knows the problems so he should try to help out these farmers.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this matter for the first time with me today. It is a matter I have been working on for a significant number of weeks now and through the end of last year as the crisis emerged in the pig industry. I have met representatives of the Irish Farmers Association national pig committee directly and last week I attended a meeting of the vast majority of pig farmers nationally at a centre in the Green Isle Hotel in Dublin. I committed to work to deliver a support mechanism to help with the financial pressure they are currently experiencing. I am working with my officials on that. I met representatives of the banks as well as the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland to discuss supports and how to work with farmers through this very difficult period. I am very much aware of the issue and the industry is facing challenging times. It is subject to cycles but this is being acutely felt because of pressure from the input cost end and the price end. I and my Government colleagues will work with this really important sector. It is the third-largest part of our agrifood sector.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It supports 8,000 jobs.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely, and we want to support them through this period.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The Limerick Treaty Suicide Prevention team patrols the River Shannon at night to prevent suicide or accidental death but it is without a base. It has no building or location for operations and it is currently working out of a van. If somebody is suicidal, he or she clearly needs privacy and support when waiting for an ambulance. Such people need to be away from cameras and video devices.
The chair of the group, Mr. Matthew Collins, and Aontú Limerick representative, Ms Sarah Beasley, are working hard to try to get a property. There are countless council-owned vacant properties in Limerick so would it not be possible to get one of those buildings or a State building in use for that purpose as soon as possible? Organisations such as the Claddagh Watch Patrol; Save Our Sons and Daughters, SOSAD; and Meath River Rescue are examples of organisations all around the country doing their best to prevent suicide at the coalface. They need more support from the Government to help them do that.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has provided a range of supports to local authorities. I commend the work done by the Limerick Treaty Suicide Prevention team. I do not know from the Deputy's comments whether it has been in touch with the council in Limerick.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The council would be best placed to identify premises that may be available and could be adapted for use by the team there. That is what normally happens across the country.
Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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I am getting increasingly concerned about the continuous scaling back of essential services at Letterkenny University Hospital. Over 2,000 eye care patients in Donegal have been waiting over a year to get necessary treatment due to the lack of an ophthalmic service in the county. The ophthalmic service for the north west is now mostly based in Sligo University Hospital as Letterkenny does not currently have the required nursing and medical staff. Despite this, there does not seem to be any push in putting in place the staff and facilities necessary for a properly functioning service at Letterkenny. I wonder if the intention is to completely run down the service in Letterkenny altogether. Will the Government ensure that Letterkenny University Hospital is not left behind once again and that a fully functioning ophthalmic service will be re-established there?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will engage with the Minister for Health on that. Of course, investment has increased in Letterkenny and in hospitals across the country.
Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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That is not happening in Letterkenny.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has and quite dramatically. Letterkenny is a key hospital in the north west. I am familiar with it from my time in the Department of Health. It is a very important hospital for the north west and it is our desire and objective to provide the requisite resources to the hospital. I will speak with the Minister for Health about that.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I was delighted to see the announcement of a citizens' assembly on biodiversity last week. It is a core issue and of primary importance to us in the Green Party. It is also important for anybody who has care and consideration for future generations and the environment they will grow up in here in Ireland. Will the Taoiseach provide a timeline on when the assembly will commence and report to the Oireachtas? Will he ensure the supports will be in place for that citizens' assembly to carry out that vital work?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My recollection of my notes from yesterday is that we intend to commence this in April. I believe it will be brought before the Business Committee either this week or next week so we can get agreement in the House on the matter. We are moving fairly quickly on this.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is very much aware that since the last budget, the cost of living and inflation have risen dramatically. I know there was a recent meeting involving all party leaders and we are now looking at the squeezed middle. I know the Government wants to do everything possible to address this ever more urgent matter. It is affecting a large number of families.
I have three requests for the Taoiseach and his Ministers to consider. I ask that the electricity rebate be increased from the current proposal on the table. I ask that the fuel allowance period be extended. I also ask that the social protection payments due to come into effect in June be brought forward to the spring.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said yesterday, I will not get into the specifics of the package of measures that the Government is considering now but I appreciate the Deputy raising these matters. As I said yesterday, the idea is to do what we can to alleviate the pressures families are experiencing now because of the increased cost of living and the inflation being generated internationally across the globe. It is an international phenomenon for a number of reasons, including soaring oil and gas prices and congested supply chain logistics. Supply is not meeting demand as we reopen from Covid-19. Putting all these factors together, it leads to a very significant cycle of inflation. We will bring forward a package of measures to try to help people.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On page 86 of the programme for Government there is a commitment to having a Prison Service that provides secure custody. On 23 October 2020, a civilian entered the Midlands Prison in Portlaoise in the company of a senior official and was identified as an Irish Prison Service, IPS, official. That person was signed in at the gate as an IPS official. The person entered the search area and I am informed was identified a number of times as an IPS official. That person interviewed and spoke with members of the operational security group in the prison on the understanding that the person in question was an official of the IPS. That person left the Midlands Prison and entered the maximum security prison next door, Portlaoise Prison, where the process was repeated.
The rules are very clear in this regard. On 8 November 2020, the Minister for Justice and her office was informed of the incident and gave assurances that an examination would happen. The IPS was also notified by way of its chief Ms Karen McCaffrey. An acting Minister for Justice was also notified. The IPS indicated after investigation that there was no veracity to these allegations and at no stage was the visitor introduced as an IPS official.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We do not have the time to spend the day on this.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have a copy of the signature given at the gate lodge.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is way over the allowed time.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This matter has not been examined properly and it is serious. The Taoiseach should be in no doubt about that.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is not an appropriate way in which to raise this matter.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Taoiseach to examine the matter and revert to me about it.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I do not know what the Taoiseach is expected to say about that.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know either. There must be processes to deal with these types of matters. The Parliament cannot investigate every single transgression.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The rules were broken.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There should be proper systems in place within the Prison Service or externally to investigate such matters properly and appropriately. I will speak to the Minister for Justice about the point raised.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yesterday's response was false.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The oldest of the cases in the recent "Crimes and Confessions" series concerned the Ratoath or Lynskey murder. This morning I met Mr. Martin Conmey and Ms Ann Donnelly, the wife of Mr. Dick Donnelly and whose brother was Mr. Martin Kerrigan. Will the Taoiseach expedite a full cold case review of that case?
The case destroyed a number of families. The Taoiseach promised to meet with party leaders and I ask that he would bring this forward and order a full statutory inquiry into that case, and also the Sallins case.
12:52 pm
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Cold case reviews are operational matters for An Garda Síochána. I have made the point more generally about statutory commissions of inquiry that there are serious issues around them in terms of how long they take. I do not believe such commissions are as optimal as we like to think they are for resolving a whole range of issues.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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What would the Taoiseach suggest?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I say, I do not have all the answers. Over 15 or 16 years ago, the answer was to expedite the commission of investigation as an alternative to a public tribunal under the Tribunals of Inquiry Acts, which was the standard approach then. There are challenges with statutory inquiries, and we all should acknowledge that in the House.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach commit to some investigation of that?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the first instance, I think the cold case review is one for the Garda.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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As a Taoiseach is aware, delays in planning are causing huge problems for individuals and businesses. This is particularly acute with An Bord Pleanála where many of the appeals, I would say the majority, are not dealt with within anything like the four-month statutory target. It can take over a year to get permission for leave to seek substitute consent, for example. When one finally gets the leave, if one does get the leave, to apply for substitute consent it can take two or three years to get the substitute consent. This is utterly farcical given that many of these cases are very simple. I know of a case going on for years that relates to one house and has no effect on the environment. The house has been built. When will the planning and development (judicial review) Bill and the planning development Bill come before the Dáil? Both are on the list for publication. In the meantime, will extra staff be provided to An Bord Pleanála to allow it to make decision in an appropriate and speedy manner?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is my understanding that this legislation has gone through pre-legislative scrutiny and the outcome is being examined.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It has not come through the Dáil.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the overall point about delays in planning, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, in consort with the Attorney General, is having a more fundamental and very detailed comprehensive look at the entire planning code with a view to providing legislative proposals whereby a project that would normally take a number of years could be undertaken in one year. We acknowledge that the planning code is very complicated, difficult and challenging. Given the massive infrastructural programme that everybody wants, and the massive housing programme we need, we need to be more streamlined in how we conduct that business.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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It has been a great week for Kerry so far. First of all, on Monday the Taoiseach came to see us for a jobs announcement. Yesterday Jessie Buckley received her Oscar nomination. Then the Supreme Court ruled in favour of the south Kerry greenway. This week has been up there with any of our 37 all-Irelands.
Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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How many?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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On top of that really positive news, we need the funding to build the greenway. It has the potential to be one of the iconic greenways of the world. I believe it is of national importance and warrants a national response from the Government. It will pay for itself many times over. It will be a massive game changer for the economy of the entirety of Kerry, not just the south and mid-Kerry area. As the Taoiseach knows, when Kerry is doing well the benefits will spill over to Cork too. I would be very grateful if the Taoiseach could find the funding and give that commitment to the people of Kerry as early as possible.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Taoiseach have the government chequebook with him?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have noticed this morning that everything involving Kerry is of national importance. I am quite pleased with Jessie Buckley's nomination, which is an extraordinary achievement, and the greenway decision. The Deputy did not mention that Kerry beat Dublin at the beginning of the week.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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It is only February.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know there is a bit of reluctance to go full-blooded on that one. There is a lot of funding for greenways. Greenways press so many buttons for health, well-being, people's enjoyment of nature, active travel and so on. It is very good news. We want to transform the country with walking routes, cycle routes, greenways and so on. We will certainly be very positive in our approach to it.
Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Across the State, the cost of childcare is continuing to have an impact on families, on businesses and on all of society. In my constituency of Dublin Rathdown, families are paying up to €1,500 per month, which is essentially a second mortgage. While it is extremely welcome that the universal subsidy has had an impact, for some families it amounts to only €80 per month. In light of the rising costs in the general economy, will the Government look at widening that universal subsidy and, more importantly, look at a genuine tax rebate scheme to take the pressure off working families across the country?
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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The Government is committed to continuing to reduce the costs of childcare. We have taken important measures in this year's budget to provide core funding to childcare providers to enable them to better pay their staff, so we can get that quality and we can retain staff in the sector. In exchange for that, we will get the fee-freeze mechanism, which will be the first time in the State we have ever had such a mechanism. We have brought in some other changes in this year's budget including the extension of the universal payment and the removal of the wraparound hours for children in services in areas of disadvantage. The key technique we have now is the national childcare scheme. There is a strong commitment, which is shared across all parties in government, that we will continue to extend out and invest significantly in the scheme. This will make a real difference in affordability for parents.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I wish to raise with Taoiseach the very poor treatment by Tesco of its workers. Yesterday it sent notice to almost 100 directly employed retail security officers that their jobs are going to be outsourced to OCS. There has been no engagement whatsoever with the workers. It means that workers, who in some cases have worked for up to two decades with Tesco, are being given a few weeks to choose between redundancy or being outsourced. If they are outsourced to OCS, it is very likely their terms and conditions will be undermined over time. There are no guarantees. OCS could lose the Tesco contract. Would the Taoiseach agree that Tesco should immediately withdraw this approach and this attempt to outsource these jobs? The idea that it is negotiating on other aspects of its workers' terms and conditions while pursuing this outsourcing is obviously ridiculous. It shows that the company is negotiating in very bad faith. Tesco is still highly profitable. These are the workers who were clapped and who kept supermarkets open. Instead of outsourcing jobs they should be increasing wages, as happened in Dunnes Stores, and they should be improving terms and conditions.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not familiar with the specifics of the case the Deputy has raised, but generally it makes sense that employers would look after their workers. I am not supportive of the outsourcing policy or trend. Ireland is very close to full employment in our economy. In that context, it is crucial that there are quality jobs, and that pay and conditions reflect the talent, commitment and enthusiasm of those who are working for firms and companies. The policy outlined by the Deputy seems to me to be counter-intuitive and counterproductive for retaining staff.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have lost count of the number of times my colleagues and I have raised the issue of the national maternity hospital. Specifically, what progress has been made in acquiring the site and taking it into public ownership so that a national public hospital can be built on a site owned by the public? We have passed three motions. On the last occasion, the Taoiseach said that motions do not build hospitals. When motions are unanimously accepted in Dáil Éireann, as these motions have been, they tell the Taoiseach what the Dáil wants. In that context, what progress has been made to acquire the site?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Progress has been made in getting this issue resolved, in ensuring we build a national maternity hospital because current conditions are unacceptable for women who attend the current facility and, given the State investment, in ensuring the State will control the policy and ethos of the hospital itself. I do not have the full details yet but I hope the Minister will be coming to the Cabinet soon with a memorandum that we can then bring before the House.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to raise an issue relating to dentists, which I also bought up with the Tánaiste in November. There are 107 dentists in Meath, as listed on the government website. To my knowledge, not one of them is accepting new clients with medical cards. There are 35 in Navan, five in Trim and two in Enfield. This is for a population of 210,000. It is a serious issue. The dispute between the HSE and the dentists has gone on for more than 13 months.
It needs to be resolved. Is there any sign of that? I receive calls every day from patients in distress because no dentist in the county is accepting medical cards.
1:02 pm
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is correct in that there is ongoing negotiation between the Irish Dental Association, which represents dentists, and the HSE, representing the State and taxpayer in respect of services. A balance has to be struck between representing the taxpayer and value for money and the need to provide badly needed services for medical card holders.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The British Government's amnesty legislation is about covering up what it did in Ireland. It is about the fact that the British Government was responsible for death squads that executed Irish people. There is a responsibility on us in here to highlight the issue. We need to be incredibly strong in regard to the fact that the amnesty legislation is just not going to cut it in terms of human rights and where right-thinking people are. We need to deal with the reports of the ombudsman, in particular the latest one. We also need to deal with some of the outstanding issues in this State. I refer to the Glenanne gang killing two people in Dundalk in the Kay's Tavern bombing, and the death of Seamus Ludlow and the requirement on the State to carry out an inquiry into how that was handled. We need to deal with the issue of collusion, which was about the British Government feeling it had the right and ability to carry out executions of nationalists in Ireland.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As I said in my response to Deputy Tóibín, who raised the issue on Leaders' Questions, we are very opposed to the amnesty proposal that has emanated from the British Government. We do not believe in unilateral action on legacy issues. The British and Irish Governments and all the parties in Northern Ireland have entered into an intergovernmental conference on this in terms of the legacy overall. It is a very important issue. There can be no amnesty for anybody, state or non-state, who committed appalling murders or who colluded in committing appalling murders. There can be no amnesty for such acts.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I want to raise the pressing need for school secretaries to be placed on a public service incremental scale and to address the wage increase they need. They still receive no illness benefit, and there is no pension scheme in place for them. School secretaries were, as we know, to the forefront in dealing with the pandemic and making sure our schools stayed open, dealing with parents, students and teachers, with none of the benefits. It is disgraceful that we are in a situation whereby they must sign on during the Christmas and Easter holidays, considering the job they do. They are valued members of our school communities the length and breadth of the country. The WRC has instructed that further talks take place on 24 February. I ask the Taoiseach to ensure that these workers, who are predominantly women, are treated not just with platitudes but with remuneration and that they have a proper standing within the Department of Education.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue, which is being consideration by Government. She has been a long-term advocate for school secretaries. As she knows, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform is leading on the broader issue of pay and conditions. As she said, this issue is scheduled to be discussed in further meetings within the industrial relations process. We would like that to be brought to a conclusion as quickly as possible.