Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú) | Oireachtas source

I understand what the Minister is seeking to do with this Bill. We support the objective behind the Bill in this case. The law in this area has to be changed because current practice has been deemed unconstitutional. All minors should be treated equally under the law when considering their age. That is a really important issue.

A couple of issues arise in the context of what is happening here. Some minors are involved in criminal activity and penalties relating to them do not arise until after they reach 18 years of age. The big question relates to why it takes so long for the criminal justice system to work. The Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin, recently made a comparison between the criminal justice systems in Britain and Ireland. He stated that individuals in Britain who are involved in criminal activities are jailed within a matter of weeks, whereas in Ireland it can take a years for this to happen. The High Court decision came about as a result of the slow way in which the wheels of justice in this country turn. That is a significant problem. If we are honest about it, one of the main reasons for this is the lack of resources within the court system. There are not enough judges, barristers or gardaí within the system. This is leading to very slow decisions being made within the criminal justice system.

I do not want to see children criminalised at all. I want to see a situation where children are given every chance to reform their ways if they have been involved in criminal activity. Some children participate in criminal activity just through circumstances - often as a result of the fact that they come from disadvantaged backgrounds. If given the chance, many will go on to lead full and positive lives within society.

There has to be a cost for children involved in criminal activity. If there is no cost whatsoever, we are telling a lie to those children, namely that there is a consequence-free reality to their activity. A couple of months ago I held a public meeting in county Meath around the issue of crime and antisocial behaviour. A number of women attended the meeting and said that children are involved in stealing from their shops. When the women challenge them, the children say that if they go to the Garda, they will rape the women on their way home. That is obviously a very serious threat. As a result, some of the women are getting lifts to and from work. They cannot walk to work anymore for fear of that threat being fulfilled.

The criminal justice system needs to be able to deal with children who have been the subject of numerous convictions over time. There has to be a graduated penalty system in place to deter children from getting involved in crime, especially from the ages of 16 and 17. We know that in our communities, children are being used by criminal organisations to carry out actions because it is understood that they are almost immune from the type of convictions that apply to adults. We have to grapple with the issue of a graduated response to criminal activity for children who are 15, 16 and 17 years of age.

I concur with Deputy Howlin in relation to the gap in clarity this Bill potentially leaves regarding the law that will be used in cases of murder. A clear legislative response should be laid out in respect of children under the age of 18 who are involved in murder.

There are gaps around the issue of what we do in terms of penalties and how long people should spend in jail for their activities. We have a major problem when it comes to certain individuals who carry out grievous crimes and who do not receive custodial sentences for them. Obviously, there is a separation of powers. I will not mention any particular cases in this regard. However, there are individuals who have been brought to court for offences relating to hard-core child pornography - these people have really damaged others - and who received suspended sentences.

I know the Judicial Council is involved in creating advice for judges in terms of penalties and custodial sentences, but there needs to be speed in terms of making sure we have proper deterrents within law and within custodial sentences for those who participate in extreme, violent and grievous crime. We do not have that at the moment. Part of that comes down to the fact that every year, the Minister's staff select people who are in prison and take them out of prison because the prisons are overcrowded. In response to a parliamentary question I submitted, the Minister admitted that her staff release prisoners because prisons are overcrowded.

We want to do everything we can to divert children away from crime, but there has to come a point where children who are involved in grievous crime face a penalty, and that must mean a custodial sentence. Undoubtedly, one of the issues leading to the spike in murder and crime at the moment is the lack of gardaí. Every year that the Minister, Deputy McEntee, has been Minister for Justice, there has been a fall in the number of gardaí in the State.

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