Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Members are required to participate in the meeting remotely from within the Leinster House precincts only. I remind all those in attendance to make sure that their mobile phones are switched off or in silent mode. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Supplementary Estimates within the remit of the committee.

I welcome the Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Heather Humphreys, and her officials. We will now consider the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 42. I invite the Minister to make her opening statement.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank the committee for the opportunity to present this request for substantive and technical Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Rural and Community Development. The substantive Estimate comprises: an additional €10 million in funding for the local improvement scheme; an additional €2 million in current funding for social inclusion supports, through the community connection project and an additional €218,157 for payroll within the Department and its agencies, to reflect costs from the recent pay agreement.

The proposed technical Estimate covers the following: a movement of €6 million to fund demand under the community centre investment fund, with this fund moving from the community recognition fund; the movement of €3 million into the Leader programme, to meet demand, with €2.125 million from libraries capital and €875,000 from the community recognition fund; the movement of €2 million in capital funding to the dog control area, with this coming from the rural regeneration and development area. This funding is essential for improvements to dog-pound facilities. I am also seeking to move €1 million in islands' funding from capital to current, given the costs for transport services to the islands. Similarly, under the first part, I am seeking to move €1.45 million from capital to current expenditure. In the context of the Dublin north-east inner city initiative, there is a requirement to move €1.42 million from current to capital.

The substantive Supplementary Estimate totals approximately €12.2 million and the technical Supplementary Estimate totals approximately €14.78 million. The additional €10 million in funding for the local improvement scheme allowed me to announce a funding package of €40 million for 2024 and 2025 in April of this year. This will see more than 1,000 roads improved across the country. This is a record level of funding for a scheme which I have supported very strongly in recent years. The additional €2 million in funding enabled the community connection project, which has seen 30 community link workers employed in local development companies. Their role is to help build community resilience against misinformation and prejudice, by working with local communities before, during and after the arrival of international protection applicants.

The technical Supplementary Estimate is necessary to manage different levels of demand and delivery over the year since the original Estimates were brought forward. Delays in delivery of some library projects have resulted in a saving that I can use for the Leader programme. Delivery under the community recognition fund has also been a bit slower than I had hoped for. Therefore, I am using funds allocated for that area to meet additional demand under the Leader programme and the community centre investment fund. This reallocation does not impact on the level of approvals and expenditure under the community recognition fund, with the remaining bills for the first call under the fund having to be paid in 2025, as they arise.

The movements allow us to best manage spending across the different schemes. I am also allocating €2 million in capital funding to the dog control area for improvements to pound facilities and dog control infrastructure, with the funding moving from rural regeneration and development. I have put a strong focus on this policy area over the last couple of years and this funding will help to support the local authorities in implementing the new regulations on XL bully dogs.

Overall, 2024 has been another year of very strong delivery by the Department, with these movements of funds representing only very small adjustments to a budget of more than €430 million. These movements, along with some movements between capital and current, will allow my Department to put its resources to best use in supporting rural and urban communities around the country.

I thank the committee for taking the time to consider the Supplementary Estimates and I am happy to answer any questions that might arise. My colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, is taking a Private Members' motion in the Dáil Chamber at present.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister. Like myself, she is near the end of the road.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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A few of us are.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Three of us here are, but we will work to the line. I see that the Minister is doing that.

Most of the provisions here are small. There is an extra €12 million in total, however, which I welcome. I recognise what has been done on the local improvement schemes, but in practice, I find that the genuine list of projects that need to be done is way longer than the money that is being provided. Have any discussions taken place on the following? In the context of any road serving houses, farmland or a basic facility such as a strand or graveyard or anything else that would be done under the local improvement scheme, has anything been done to ensure that these would automatically be taken in charge once they are repaired by a council. The councils make a big fuss about taking in charge, but most small boreens require very little maintenance. We all know the old saying, "A stitch in time saves nine". Have there been any talks with the Department of Transport regarding that body's responsibility to these houses? I believe that everybody in the country is entitled to a water connection from the mains to their house, electricity, broadband and a road. They are the five fundamentals. Until 2011, it was always the Department of Transport which funded it. It was co-funded via CLÁR in the CLÁR areas on a euro-per-euro basis, but it was not given; it was contingent on the money being provided by the Department of Transport as well. That is the first question.

An issue was raised with me during the week. It is amazing how people come - and the Minister has seen this syndrome before - just as we are hitting election buttons and they think that problems are going to be solved in three weeks. They do not realise that this is the greatest downtime in government. It is very hard to get things done once the Dáil is dissolved. The person who raised the issue in question with me referred to the funding of the community development programme for the islands. I do not think that the island development companies are matched anywhere on the mainland in the range of functions they carry out. They are the hub of activity on the islands and they are the bodies that Departments consult on island issues. They are involved in all sorts of projects, way beyond what other community development projects are, because of infrastructure and service issues and so on.

I am aware that dormant accounts are not relevant to this discussion. However, in the context of such accounts, I was asked about the Yellow Flag programme. Does that come under the remit of the Department in the context of dormant accounts? Does the Department of Education have overall responsibility for dormant accounts?

That is my final question for round one.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Since 2017, we have put €170 into the local improvement scheme and as 5,000 roads have been completed during that time, there has been a lot of progress. I have written to the Minister for Transport on numerous occasions and every time I stand up in the Dáil I ask my colleagues to raise this with the Minister for Transport because these are roads, after all. I do not know if I will make much progress over the next couple of days but the Minister was not too keen to give me the money. Well, I am not saying that he was not too keen but I did not see it yet. There is a big role here for the Department of Transport and I have said that all along, because I can tell the Deputy that had it matched the funding we as a small Department with a relatively small budget have put into the LIS, the long list of lanes that are waiting would have been cleared. I did ask many times but the funding was not forthcoming. It is very important and I know the value of the LIS, as do any of the rural TDs. It is so important. We changed the criteria recently where it is not as tight, we have relaxed it a bit. This will allow more lanes to go onto the LIS but it will be a challenge and we will have to get more money to sort out the local improvement scheme. God knows, they really do a great job, when we see what can be done.

As for the local authorities taking over these lanes when they are completed and when there are a number of houses, you often will be referred to the community scheme and that is okay also. I do not fund it but in helping farmers, the local improvement scheme has been extremely successful and it should be further invested in.

On Comhar na nOileán, it has been appointed as the local action group for the LEADER programme on the Galway islands and it is an implementing partner with the relevant local action groups, LAGs, with the islands off the coast of counties Donegal and Cork. Comhar na nOileán also called for the function to remain in the Department of Rural and Community Development, believe it or not - it wants to stay with us. Comhar na nOileán had its annual general meeting and stated it wanted to make it very clear it wants to stay with this Department and does not want to move to any other Department so I suppose that is an indication of some of the success we have had. There are a lot of challenges when one lives on an island. I visited them with Deputy Ó Cuív and have been to them on many occasions. The Department has strong island funding that I believe can be further increased to deal with the issues on the islands. The main issues are the piers and money has been set aside that is ring-fenced for islands through the LIS programme and that will have to be built on as well.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The issue I raised was that on the Gaeltacht islands the co-operatives, which are called comharchumainn on the islands, are funded by Údarás na Gaeltachta. On the non-Gaeltacht islands, each island or cluster of islands in the case of small islands has a community development project on the island that is funded by the Minister's Department. The community development projects are seeking more funding because like all administration, the administrative burden has gone through the roof. They provide a wide range of functions and while I will not say they act as a kind of mini-local authority, they are the community group on the island. They normally have and election system where everybody is a member of the company and has a democratic vote. The community development projects are the local organisations that everybody, including Departments, look to as their touchstone on the islands. They say they do not have sufficient funding. Remember, it is much more expensive. If one is a manager on an offshore island and has to go to the mainland, a lot of the time that means staying overnight. They often have all sorts of costs the rest of us do not face on a daily basis and have sought further funding. Is that matter under consideration in the Department?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We have to look at all of these things and it will be in the context of the funding available to the islands, full stop. I take the Deputy's point and I acknowledge the community development projects are very important and drive projects on the island. I do not believe there is specific extra funding for them at the minute apart from what was outlined in the budget. I do not have a figure here for what was allocated to the islands in budget 2025 but I can get that figure for the Deputy.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and hope she feels better soon, there are a lot of things going round at the minute. I will be brief as I have a Private Member's motion in the Chamber. I do not object to any of this but have one question and perhaps another related question that may fall within this side of the Department although I am not totally sure.

With regard to the library funding that is being moved - it is an appropriate place to move it to - it is a substantial amount while there are a lot of library projects around the country that local authorities are looking to progress. While I am sure the Minister would award the funding if the projects were at a stage where it could be allocated, is it the case some of the projects are stuck in planning or anything like that? The Minister gave a commitment to funding ten new library projects in the last year and a half, or so. I am particularly aware of one in my local authority area, in Mahon. There has been a long-standing demand and request. I understand the new request has not come in from the local authority and the Minister might clarify that for me. Things have not progressed to that stage but it is not the only local authority in the country. It is vitally important we invest in our libraries to ensure they are able to evolve with the changing world. Also, some of the buildings are older. There was a commitment of approximately €2.6 million for mobile libraries this year. Has that progressed? If there is a backlog in the system and some sort of constraint preventing requests coming into the Department, can we examine what that is?

I am not totally sure if Citizens Information and that side of things fall into this Department; it is probably a matter for the Department for Social Protection. Okay, I will leave that off in that case. I have no particular objection to anything here but am a bit surprised to see money related to libraries coming back, given the demand that is there. How do we bridge that gap?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The savings on the Supplementary Estimate relate to slower than anticipated progress on one major library project in Swords, as well as delays in some minor projects, including the completion of some My Open Library projects. In terms of the capital for libraries, there is a libraries fund but a lot of capital comes from the rural regeneration fund because, in many places across the country we are repurposing old buildings. The libraries really are a wonderful asset in every community. They are a hub, a centre for activity, and it is not just about books any more as it is about a whole plethora of things. I attended the opening of the library in Kilkenny and what is going on there is amazing. There are classes for different skill sets and I even saw sewing classes in the library. There is a fabulous, big room upstairs and many different things are happening. I believe the libraries are continuing to grow in the important role they play in our communities and are a resource for so many.

Under the rural regeneration fund we have been able to invest somewhere in the region of €98 million - almost €100 million - in libraries and that is on top of the other, smaller, library fund. We tie them in together and it works well. A few libraries are waiting and I know there is one down in Cork because I keep getting asked about it. There are a few more that need to be completed but I have no doubt but they will be done. They are in the pipeline and work is under way. The funding has not been approved for them but to get to that stage, we work closely with the local authorities and in some cases, the local authorities make contributions toward the library buildings as well. I am very much of the opinion, however, that we must support our library services right across the country.

The spend on mobile libraries next year has been approved. It will be the usual procurement process. There has been a great deal of investment in libraries, and we need to continue investing in them. I support that initiative.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is Deputy Ó Laoghaire satisfied?

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. I apologise, as I must attend a Private Members’ debate.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I will briefly raise two matters with the Minister. Like Deputy Ó Laoghaire, I am broadly happy with the Supplementary Estimates, but I wish to comment on library infrastructure. Some €250,000, more or less, was invested in the library in Tramore to move it to the My Open Library service. Once people see such investment, they realise that the library has changed from bricks and mortar and books into something completely different. It has become a community hub. In particular, many teenagers, who are allergic to being at home with their parents, have a nice, warm and safe space where they can go. They are playing chess, on the computers, studying and so on. It is also wonderful that we essentially have a couple of community rooms, which people are using for classes, knitting initiatives, etc. They are also a presentation space. Our local GIY had a meeting in the library last week because it was a high-quality community site. Anything we can do to invest more in our libraries as community infrastructure is welcome.

I wish to pick up on a question raised by Deputy Ó Cuív that was not really addressed, that being, the Yellow Flag programme. It seems to be falling between a number of stools. It looks to the Department of integration for some of its funding and some money comes from the Dormant Accounts Funding and the Department of Education. The programme most properly belongs in the Department of Education in order to be sustained in the long term. Currently, it looks like it is going to run out of funding. It is a very worthwhile programme that only costs a small amount of money. As Deputy Ó Cuív stated, we are about to enter a period of stasis in Government activity during the election and however long it takes for the next Government to be formed. A small intervention would keep this programme on the go and stop it from lapsing. Some programmes might be able to survive on life support for the next couple of months, but this one needs an intervention quickly.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Yellow Flag programme is funded through the Dormant Accounts Fund, which we manage. Other Departments make their pitches and get allocated funding and those decisions are brought to the Government. Every Department has its own slice of the cake and we manage our piece as it relates to the work we do. I am unsure, but I believe the Yellow Flag programme falls under the Department of Education, which needs to ensure it has funding for the programme. If it is a good programme, we should be keeping it. There should be no-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It is the type of programme that, if a Minister expressed an interest in it, a resolution would be found quickly. It is one of the issues I would like to see resolved. It is an excellent programme.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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As far as I know, the Deputy needs to raise the matter with the Minister for Education. I am not sure.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I suggest that the committee agree to write to the Minister for Education on this matter, but it would be helpful if a similar letter were to go to her from the Minister, Deputy Humphreys’ office saying that this issue had been raised and we were anxious to have it resolved. With the agreement of the committee, we will issue that correspondence and CC the Minister, Deputy Humphreys’ office with a copy of it.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I have no problem writing to the Minister about it either. It is not a great deal of money and the programme is worthwhile.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Am I right in believing that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has legislative responsibility for the Dormant Accounts Fund and that each Department makes provision in its Estimates to get money from it? It is a bit like lottery funding. The Departments then expend that money in their day-to-day expenditure.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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They all spend it. Different Departments get different funding for different programmes. Once they get the funding, it is up to them to ensure they have enough to roll out their programmes. They sometimes have to put in money from their own departmental budgets. I encountered that with a social protection programme. I believe it was the EmployAbility programme. I had to invest additional funding to ensure it kept going. It was due to stop, but it was a very good programme that got people back to work. We will write to the Minister.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is Deputy Ó Cathasaigh satisfied?

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Yes.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will raise an issue with the Minister briefly. It relates to her comments regarding the library in Kilkenny and to Deputy Ó Cathasaigh’s comments regarding what is happening in Tramore. A number of libraries around the country have additional spaces that are probably not being utilised in the best way possible. The advantage in using such spaces is that it brings people over the library’s threshold and they see what is happening in the library, which is different now compared with what happened there historically. It would be worthwhile for the Minister’s Department to write to each of the local authorities asking them to explore how there could be greater public use of spare room capacity. It is irrelevant what that use is, be it for knitting or sewing. It is just important that using the capacity brings people, and potentially new customers, over the threshold of the library. There is a positive impact in terms of well-being. Since Covid in particular, bringing people together is a positive, regardless of whether it is for flower arranging, men’s clubs or whatever. Will the Minister’s Department write to each of the local authorities and ask them to explore the greater utilisation of these public rooms for a wider range of activities?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We launched a new public library strategy in July of last year, called “The Library is the Place: Information, Recreation, Inspiration”. I launched it when I was visiting Portlaoise library. An old store – Shaw’s – had been transformed into a beautiful library. It is a fabulous building with loads of rooms, some of which are used as meeting rooms and so on. The strategy recognises that public libraries are at the heart of our communities. The Department provides a wide range of funding to support the library service. We are in constant contact with local authorities, so I have no problem with asking them to see how they can maximise the use of those rooms.

The library staff are amazing. They did a wonderful job during Covid. They kept in touch with people and left books at their doors. They went above and beyond the call of duty, and I have no doubt that they will grasp any opportunity to get more people in, so we are happy to write.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask a question about the community centre investment fund. Is it for projects that are already in existence and need extra funding or is it for projects that just missed out on funding and now have an opportunity to get that extra funding?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The community centre investment fund started off with repairs and refurbishment works for existing community centres. The second tranche I launched was for new community centres across the country. There were a number of them. They were centres for new communities. More people had moved into areas but had no community centres. It was particularly noticeable. Two such centres in Galway got funding. We then had another tranche. This fund has been extremely popular. A further tranche was launched recently. Last week, I announced the small grants from the community centre investment fund. These are for upgrades to existing community centres. We went through all of the applications and, while I do not know all of their details, the fund was not designed to top-up a shortfall. Rather, it was designed for specific works in centres across the country. We are assessing applications for larger-scale grants of up to €100,000. They will be announced by the new Minister, whenever he or she arrives. I believe I have all of the money spent. That is the state of play on the community centres investment fund.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have a quick question I was asked to ask the Minister of State. I take it the money will continue for men’s and women’s sheds and will be expanded. It is a very important programme and does huge work in communities.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I certainly cannot forget about the men’s sheds and the women’s sheds, which is a growing organisation. I was particularly keen that we would have the women’s sheds as well. They have been working very well and the network is expanding. I did say to them they should use the men’s shed as a good example. Only yesterday I signed off and made sure that we get the money for the men’s sheds, the women’s sheds and the agricultural shows. These are the important things. They make some difference. The agricultural shows were extremely successful. These are small grants of €5,000, €6,000 or €7,000 for support. When you are a volunteer on a committee of an agricultural show and you do not know whether it might rain or what the weather will be like, having a few bob in your pocket gives you a bit of confidence and you are able to put on that show. After years of bad weather, some of them accumulated debt and they could be gone otherwise. They are such wonderful events within communities. The shows, the men’s sheds and the women’s sheds will be staying, as far as I am concerned.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Has the Minister a closing statement?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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No. I just want to thank members so much for their co-operation. We have come to the end of our term and this is probably our last meeting. I want to say a huge thank you to each and every member for the co-operation members have given me in getting all these Estimates through every single year and improving the budgets and for all their work because this committee has achieved a lot. We have achieved a lot in terms of rural Ireland. The investment in rural Ireland has been unprecedented. We have the best network of remote working hubs not only in Europe but on a global basis. The Scottish are coming over now to look to see what we did and they will emulate that, which is quite an achievement. We were leaders in that.

On the Department of Social Protection, I also thank members for their co-operation there. We have got auto-enrolment through. The legislation is signed and the commencement order is signed for September 2025. It took a long time to get there - in fact, there were many attempts – but we got it across the line and I thank the committee for its co-operation there. There are other things, including pay-related benefit and hot school meals. I will leave it on that. The children are being fed in primary schools anyway. I thank each and every one of the committee members for the co-operation. I do not think we had one cross word in four and a half years. That is not bad. Thank you.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for her courteousness and for all the work she has done. There is a huge agenda. These are often the unseen Departments in terms of the Dublin media but they are hugely important and they affect a huge number of people’s lives in a practical way. Most of us have found out in politics that it is the practical things that affect people day-to-day that really count and that is what the Minister has been doing.

I ask her to make sure that whoever comes after her is instructed, through her officials, to get our report on means testing in the social welfare system. We put a good report together and it is worth reading. I have been at that since I started politics and I will never give up.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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May I echo what Deputy Ó Cuív said, particularly regarding the Minister and the work that has been done in both Departments during this term.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. On the means test, I am having a management board meeting this afternoon. It will be the number one item on my agenda.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Good.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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It is to find out where that report is on means tests and to get that because we do need to change it.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Before we adjourn, I wish to raise two issues. First, I thank all those who expressed their sympathies to my family on the sudden passing of my brother. That includes the Minister, my committee colleagues, the secretariat here and all the parliamentary community. There is a deep void left in our lives but also in public life. It is very apt that today we were approving funding of €10 million for the local improvement schemes. Last month, John would have been on Roscommon County Council for 21 years and he thrived on helping everyone that he met. I strongly believe there also will be a void in the Thirty-fourth Dáil, as I know John would have been an excellent parliamentarian and representative of the people of Roscommon and Galway. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

As this is my last contribution in the Oireachtas after nearly 28 years in Parliament, I thank the people in the counties of Longford, Leitrim, Galway and Roscommon most sincerely for the trust they have placed in me over the years. It truly has been an honour to represent the people from these counties in Dáil Éireann over that time. I sincerely thank all the staff who have worked with me over the years. I particularly want to mention the committee team here. Over the past four years, we have had the late Paul Kelly, Ailish Murphy and Jack Savage and the current team we have here, Caoímhe O’Rourke, Ciara Marrinan, Haley O’Shea and Devan Whitson, as well as all the support staff here who keep this committee operation going.

I also thank those who held the fort for me in the constituency, particularly Deirdre Concannon and Jill Mellor. Finally, I thank my family for their support over the years which, at times, have been difficult and challenging. It is with mixed emotions that the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív and I are all leaving the House. Young Deputy Ó Cathasaigh has many more years here and we wish him many more years of successful representation in this House.

That concludes the committee's business in public session today. I thank members for participating in today’s meeting.