Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We will consider the following Supplementary Estimates: Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office; Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions; and Vote 6 - Chief State Solicitor's Office. I invite the Minister of State to make her opening statement.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the committee for making time available today to consider this request for Supplementary Estimates. I am seeking a Supplementary Estimate a €400,000 for the Central Statistics Office in respect of Vote 4; €4.667 million for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in respect of Vote 5; and €3.58 million for the Chief State Solicitor's Office. A detailed briefing of each of these Votes has been supplied to the committee in advance of the meeting.

In relation to the Central Statistics Office, the CSO, is Ireland’s national statistical institute and is an independent office under the Statistics Act 1993. It is responsible for the production, co-ordination and qualitative oversight of official statistics in Ireland. The CSO provides independent statistical information to support and promote understanding and debate across Government, business and society.

Turning to the CSO's supplementary request, the CSO is currently projecting a gross additional need of €1.73 million. The pressure on the Vote is driven by several elements. The projected overspend in subhead A1 - salaries, wages and allowances - is due in the main to the underfunding of the 2024 pay increases and an ambitious and early recruitment schedule in 2024. Additional requirements are projected in respect of subhead A3 - training and development; subhead A4 - operational services, supplies and sundry equipment; and subhead A7 - policy reviews, consultancy services and research.

In relation to the training and development subhead, the organisational capability review of the CSO completed earlier this year noted the importance of the CSO investing in training to meet statistical and administrative skills needs and to meet skills needs in new specialist and developing areas such as artificial intelligence, AI; geographic information systems; cybersecurity; and data science and data analysis. The demands for training are continuing to grow as CSO staff numbers increase.

The additional need in the operational services, supplies and sundry equipment subhead is driven by increased postal and advertising costs. Postal charges and the number of post outs have continued to increase, even with increased use of online response facilities. Advertising is necessary to raise public awareness of the value of participating in CSO surveys, with a view to increasing engagement with surveys and assuring quality. Maintaining and increasing response rates is key to the quality of data with falling response rates a serious organisational risk. The additional need in the policy reviews, consultancy services and research subhead relates to increased requirements for cybersecurity related consultancy in 2024.

The CSO has reviewed all subheads to maximise savings available and to minimise the additional need requirements. The CSO has successfully identified savings of €1.03 million from within administration subheads and also proposes to reduce the additional need requirement by using an excess of €300,000 in appropriations-in-aid. As a result of these efforts, the CSO has reduced the projected additional demand on the Vote to a net figure of €400,000 and is therefore requesting a substantive Supplementary Estimate of €400,000.

A Supplementary Estimate of €4.667 million is requested on behalf of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP. The key function of the Office of the DPP is to provide a prosecution service that is independent, fair and effective for the people of Ireland. While the Taoiseach has certain responsibilities to the Oireachtas for administrative matters in the Office of the DPP, the office operates independently of the Department.

There are three factors which give rise to the need for this Supplementary Estimate. I will address these in the order in which they are listed in the Vote. In subhead A2, an additional allocation of €785,000 is required on the administration non-pay subheads. The additional funding is required to fund investment in ICT, staff training, accommodation and to meet increased travel costs in relation to staff servicing an increased number of court sittings, particularly outside of Dublin.

Subhead A3, fees to counsel, expenditure on fees to counsel is, to a large extent, dependent on the level of activity in the courts at any time, and so is always difficult for the Office of the DPP to forecast. The projected overspend of €5.52 million on this subhead can be attributed to a general increase in the number of indictable prosecutions directed across all the courts, and to a significant increase in activity in the Central Criminal Court. The number of judges assigned has increased from five to 12. As a result, there has been a very significant increase in court sittings, trials and lists to be supported by the Office of the DPP.

The factors giving rise to the overspend in 2024 are likely to continue into 2025 with the appointment of additional judges by Government. However, an additional allocation of €6.6 million has been added to this subhead for 2025 to respond to increased levels of court activity around the country. The Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform sanctioned an increase in fee rates of 10% with effect from 1 January 2024. This has also had an impact on overall expenditure on fees to counsel in 2024.

Notwithstanding this, the fee rates payable to criminal barristers in 2024 are still 16% below those which were paid in 2008.

With regard to A4, the law costs subhead covers the payment of legal costs awarded by the courts in judicial review matters and other legal proceedings. The projected overrun of €400,000 in 2024 is principally due to an increased number of claims arising from a significant general increase in court activity in recent years. These cases were settled on behalf of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions by the State Claims Agency, which manages third-party legal cost claims against State authorities. The additional expenditure I have advised the committee of amounts to a total of €6.705 million. However, savings of €1.86 million anticipated on the A1 administration pay subhead and increased appropriations-in-aid contributions of €0.178 million has reduced the amount required by way of net substantive Supplementary Estimate to €4.667 million.

On Vote 6, a Supplementary Estimate of €3.58 million is sought this year for the Chief State Solicitor’s Office. The CSSO is a constituent part of the Office of the Attorney General and acts as solicitor to Ireland, the Attorney General and to Government Departments and offices. While the Taoiseach has certain responsibilities to the Oireachtas for administrative matters in the CSSO, the office operates independently of the Department. This Supplementary Estimate is sought to cover extra expenditure on three subheads within the Vote in 2024: A4, fees to counsel; A2, administration - non-pay, relating to digital capital investment and IT services; and A3, external legal services.

Subhead A4, fees to counsel, is the largest proportion of the moneys sought. The CSSO's mission is to provide the highest standard of professional legal services to Government, Departments and offices as economically and efficiently as possible and to support adherence to the rule of law. As part of the delivery of this service, the office incurs expenditure on counsel fees. The management of expenditure on counsel fees is a key activity for the office. These are primarily fees payable to external counsel following the delivery of the relevant legal service where they represent Government Departments and offices in litigation before the Irish courts, other tribunals and the Court of Justice of the European Union. They also include fees payable for the provision by external counsel of specialist legal advice for the State, whether sought for the Attorney General’s office or for Departments and offices. The overall level of these fees is, to a large extent, demand led, dependent on the level of activity in the courts at any time and complexity of the given cases. Therefore, they can be difficult to forecast.

In recent years, the office has seen a marked increase in the complexity and volume of work in areas such as commercial and procurement law, property law, planning and environmental law, social welfare law, commercial litigation and mass litigation. A major growth area over 2023 and 2024 to date has been in judicial review litigation against the State. This increase is driven primarily by a number of factors, including immigration and asylum related judicial review and large-scale judicial review litigation in areas such as social welfare, education, integration-international protection reception conditions and planning and environmental law.

An allocation of €17 million was made for expenditure on fees for counsel in 2024 - a reduction of €2.5 million on 2023. This reflected the fact that particular project work involving counsel had come to an end. However, the current position shows that after the fees requested by counsel undergo a value for money assessment, this will leave a shortfall of €3 million in this area over the allocated amount.

On subhead A2, with regard to the expenditure on digital capital investment and IT services, the office is operating in an increasingly digital environment. Access to reliable electronic case and records management systems are central and critical to the delivery of solicitor services to the Attorney General and to Government. Increasing problems with the reliability, performance and accessibility of the case and records management systems posed significant risks to the continuity of delivery of the core legal service to Government and necessitated an essential upgrade in 2024. The work undertaken should ensure a more robust and reliable system going forward. The shortfall for this subhead is €859,000.

Regarding subhead A3, an additional allocation of €50,000 is required to cover a projected overspend under this subhead. The CSSO has identified savings of €329,000 in subheads A1, administration pay, and A5, general law expenses, which can partially reduce the estimated overspend. Following the offsetting of the identified savings, the net substantive Supplementary Estimate required is €3.58 million.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Supplementary Estimates with the committee.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State and her officials for coming before what is probably the last meeting of this select finance committee. Obviously, the function of the committee is to consider the Supplementary Estimates. If we had to approve them, I am sure they would be approved.

I wish to raise one issue with the Minister of State that she identified in her opening statement. It concerns Vote 5, which is the Supplementary Estimate for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. I note what she said about how a significant part of the Supplementary Estimate is due to fees to counsel, that is, to barristers practising in the criminal courts.

I welcome the fact that this Government has significantly increased the level of resources that have been put into the criminal courts. As the Minister of State mentioned, it is apparent that we used to have just five judges on the Central Criminal Court, but now we have gone up to 12. Much more work is happening there. The benefit of that is it speeds up the criminal justice process for persons who are accused or, more importantly, for the victims and their families, who want to see cases get on promptly.

One of the consequences of the increase in the amount and capacity of the Central Criminal Court is that is has spread the work more widely among barristers, which is a good thing. Previously, some of the work was concentrated on a small number of barristers. Now since there are 12 central criminal courts and, of course, there are circuit criminal courts, the work is spread much more broadly. It is not possible for one barrister to hold on to a lot of work.

That brings me to the point I wish to raise about counsel’s fees. I am a barrister but I do not practise in the criminal courts. As the Minister of State will be aware, as a result of and from the time of the financial crash, between 2008 and 2011, a cut of more than 28% was applied to the fees paid to criminal barristers. Fortunately, this Government has done a lot to restore some of those cuts. In budget 2024, the restoration process started, and I think there was a restoration of 10% announced in budget 2024 that came into effect from 1 January this year. In budget 2024, I think the Minister, Deputy McEntee, announced a further 8% restoration. However, it is still the case that fees paid to criminal barristers are approximately 10.5% below what they should be. I am conscious and I welcome that the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, earlier this year confirmed that all other FEMPI-era measures had been fully reversed and unwound. I am not asking the Minister of State and I am conscious she cannot give a commitment in respect of it. Does she think there is an awareness in Government that something probably needs to be done in respect of the ongoing, continuing cuts that were applied and implemented since 2008? I note in her presentation that fees to counsel are an important part of having an effective administration of justice. My concern is that if we do not, we start losing people from that area of the profession. I am not worried about the interests of barristers but it will damage the administration of justice because we will not have sufficient interest in that area of the law to prosecute cases.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy O’Callaghan for his question. He is correct. During the financial downturn, a number of cuts were applied to counsel fee rates, including two separate reductions, which he referred to, 8% in March 2009 and April 2010, which mirrored cuts provided for by the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act. An additional reduction of 10% was applied from October 2011, which had no parallel in the emergency legislation. While the Minister for public expenditure sanctioned a 10% increase in fee rates effective from 1 January 2024, restoration of the other two cuts of 8%, dating back to 2009 and 2010, still remain outstanding. Accordingly, fee rates payable to criminal barristers in 2024 are still 16% below those paid in 2008.

In reference to the Deputy's question, I understand that this matter remains under consideration by the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. I absolutely take the points he raises regarding its importance.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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On the CSO, we have requested before, through the finance committee but also the budgetary oversight committee, to have better congruence of the data of the CSO and the statistics office in the North. Has any progress been made on that to have congruence across the island and the data that is available?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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A joint all-Ireland census publication based on the 2022 census and the 2021 Northern Ireland census is being developed in collaboration with the CSO and the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency and that will be published in quarter 1 of next year.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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What will that tell us then? When is the next census due?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is due in 2027 and that is going to be partly online as well as obviously paper-based.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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What efforts are being made to ensure the information that is being collected in 2027 will be able to give us comparative data for the North as well?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That collaboration for that all-Ireland census publication is happening as we speak. There is ongoing review and they are constantly ensuring the data that is being collected is accurate and evidence-based. That work is ongoing but I can get the Deputy more information on that specific ask.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State. It is not just the data. It is that we can compare and contrast and we have the evidence there for all of the research that is being done at the moment and that we are prepared for 2027 then to be able to design the questions on an all-island basis.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There was also a pilot that was carried out. The new questions in the pilot included questions about where households, for example, park their cars, gender, sexual orientation, mental health and the way that third level qualifications were obtained. Following the learnings and the experiences of that pilot, further development of all census systems and procedures will commence. Now that the collection phase of the census pilot survey is complete, the census team will review that information gathered. Once the final context is agreed and approved by the census advisory committee, the census questions will be sent to Government for approval. That will take place in 2025. A full report of the pilot will be published as well on the CSO website at this stage. Regarding the North-South, I will come back to the Deputy on that.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I do not really have any other questions outside of those. I have questions around the Attorney General and regarding the advice he gave in relation to pyrite but we will not go into that here today. I will save the Minister of State that.

Regarding the State Claims Agency, the Minister of State referred to the projected overrun of €400,000 in 2024 being "principally due an increased number of claims arising from a significant general increase in court activity in recent years". She reports that these cases were settled on behalf of the Office of the DPP by the State Claims Agency which manages third-party legal cost claims against State authorities. Will the Minister of State speak to that for a moment to tell me the types of things involved?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There was a projected overrun on the general law expenses. The law costs subhead covers the payment of legal costs awarded by the courts in judicial review matters and other legal proceedings. The projected overrun of €400,000 in 2024 is principally due to an increased number of claims arising from a significant general increase in court activity in recent years. These cases were settled on behalf of the office of the State Claims Agency, which manages third-party legal cost claims against State authorities. Following the court's decision to award costs, the other party makes its claim. In the case of smaller, more straightforward cases, a figure may be agreed prior to the court making a final order in the case. If not, the other side will draw up a bill of costs following the awarding of costs by the court. This is forwarded to the State Claims Agency, which manages third-party legal cost claims against State authorities. Following negotiations, the State Claims Agency will agree a figure, pay the claim and recover this amount then from our office.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have an aggregate figure for the State Claims Agency and what has been paid out, or is it available somewhere?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No. I may be able to get the most up to date figure if we have one.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister of State do that for the last, say, three years so that we have an idea?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will provide the Deputy with that.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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That is it. That is all I have.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have one quick question on the extent to which backlogs that were in existence for quite a long time have been overtaken in the various courts. How is that progressing? Is it progressing satisfactorily given the extra investment, which was of course necessary?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There has been an increased volume of work by this office in recent years. To give a taste of some of the activities, there was increased activity in the Central Criminal Court since 2019 and there has been a 149% increase in the number of court dates in the Central Criminal Court. The committee will be aware the Central Criminal Court deals with very serious offences, including murder and rape. There has also been increased activity in the Circuit Criminal Courts. In criminal matters, the Circuit Court deals with all matters prosecuted on indictment except murder, rape and aggravated sexual assault. Over the period of 2019 to 2023, there has been a 24% increase in the number of Circuit Court sitting dates in the Dublin Circuit Criminal Courts and the total number of investigation files received in the directing division for decision increased by 13% between 2019 and 2023.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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As compared with the period of five years ago, the progress mentioned by the Minister of State is obviously reflected in the throughput. Is that true?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Through the courts, yes.